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Posted: 7/29/2008 6:30:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/30/2008 5:50:23 PM EDT by shotar]
Link Posted: 7/29/2008 6:30:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/29/2008 6:30:50 PM EDT by shotar]
no commentary needed
Link Posted: 7/29/2008 6:41:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/29/2008 6:41:48 PM EDT by shotar]
I rethought this and people may want to comment.
Link Posted: 7/30/2008 2:59:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/30/2008 5:51:40 PM EDT by shotar]

Originally Posted By shotar:
The ORC defines any semi automatic center fire firearm that has a be designed or adapted to fire more than 31 rounds without reloading as a machine gun.  Thus a dangerous ordinance.  


Going by the letter of the law all belt feds have been designed to fire more than 31 rounds without reloading and should be classified as machine guns.

Link Posted: 7/30/2008 5:51:53 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/30/2008 6:40:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By shotar:

Originally Posted By bookertbab:

Originally Posted By shotar:
The ORC defines any semi automatic center fire firearm that has a be designed or adapted to fire more than 31 rounds without reloading as a machine gun.  Thus a dangerous ordinance.  


Going by the letter of the law all belt feds have been designed to fire more than 31 rounds without reloading and should be classified as machine guns.



Incorrect. It is designed to fire one round.  The belt adapts it to fire more than one round without reloading.


I don't know. Using that definition even a machine gun isn't a machine gun unless you load 2 rounds.
Link Posted: 7/30/2008 9:33:12 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/10/2008 1:42:26 AM EDT
i knew about the mag cap but i just got a bushmaster and the mag that came with it holds 31rnds, for some reason, that would be illegal?
Link Posted: 10/4/2008 12:45:08 AM EDT
so if you have a 40 round mag or 75 round drum, is the illegal? thanks
Link Posted: 10/9/2008 12:33:11 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/29/2008 12:38:22 AM EDT
I read the definition and it is a "dangerous ordnance" but where does it say you cant own/posses/use one?  I tried for about 20 mins
Link Posted: 10/29/2008 12:52:48 PM EDT
you CAN own a mag over 30rds.  
you CAN'T install a 30+rd magazine in a non-NFA weapon
Link Posted: 10/29/2008 1:22:55 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Danno_man:
you CAN own a mag over 30rds.  
you CAN'T install a 30+rd magazine in a non-NFA weapon


Where does it say this, I looked for quite some time in the revised code and found nothing that states you cannot have a dangerouse ordanance.  It says the mag makes it an "automatic" by ohio standards, but where in the ohio code does it say you can't own one without a permit?

Link Posted: 11/2/2008 6:02:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/2/2008 6:04:31 PM EDT by IANALY]
RC 2923.17  Unlawful Possession of a Dangerous Ordnance

(A) No person shall knowingly acquire, have, carry, or use any dangerous ordnance.

(D) Whoever violates division (A) of this section is guilty of unlawful possession of dangerous ordnance, a felony of the fifth degree.

RC 2323.11  Weapons Control Definitions

(E) “Automatic firearm” means any firearm designed or specially adapted to fire a succession of cartridges with a single function of the trigger. “Automatic firearm” also means any semi-automatic firearm designed or specially adapted to fire more than thirty-one cartridges without reloading, other than a firearm chambering only .22 caliber short, long, or long-rifle cartridges.

(K) “Dangerous ordnance” means any of the following, except as provided in division (L) of this section:

(1) Any automatic or sawed-off firearm, zip-gun, or ballistic knife;



CASELAW:

You may not be convicted for owning a magazine that can hold more than 30 rounds (A 31 round mag, plus one in the pipe, makes a firearm capable of discharging more than 31 rounds without reloading) UNLESS the State can prove that at some point the magazine has been in the weapon.

This can be proven through circumstantial evidence, such as storage together with the weapon, etc, but must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

Please also keep in mind that the caselaw referenced has only been vetted to the district court of appeals level, and has not been addressed by the Ohio Supreme Court.  This means that in some jurisdictions the common pleas court is not bound by the above stated restriction and may convict for mere possession of the two together, without proof that the mag has ever been inserted into the gun.
Link Posted: 11/10/2008 10:11:18 PM EDT
For example, can I buy a Glock 18 magazine which is 33 rounds, but put only 30 rounds in it and use it on my Glock 19? i assume no also?
Link Posted: 11/19/2008 11:37:17 PM EDT
How can they vary the definition of an automatic firearm from the atf definition.  If they want to restrict them but this seems odd to make them a "machine gun" by something that is by atf standards not a machine gun
Link Posted: 12/3/2008 3:48:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By armoredsaint:
For example, can I buy a Glock 18 magazine which is 33 rounds, but put only 30 rounds in it and use it on my Glock 19? i assume no also?


Hmmm.  Im pretty sure if you mod the follower to only hold 30 rds(like a perm plug) you'd be g2g.

Link Posted: 12/4/2008 3:01:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/4/2008 3:05:37 PM EDT by jeep45238]
You're fine if the magazine will only hold 30 if it's anything other than a .22, regardless what it was originally mean to hold and you also own a firearm that accepts that magazine.

But, it's perfectly legal to have 50, 75, 100, etc. round .22LR, .22L, .22S magazines.


These laws do NOT apply to NFA items.  If you have a true GLock 18, it doesn't matter.
Link Posted: 12/6/2008 6:19:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/6/2008 6:19:36 PM EDT by OH_Varmntr]
Then why does Dunham's in Elyria sell 40-rd double-stack AK mags?
Link Posted: 12/6/2008 6:36:36 PM EDT
You can own a magazine that will hold more than 31 rounds, just don't load it up with more than 31 rounds and put it into a firearm.  It is that simple.
Link Posted: 12/6/2008 7:25:47 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/6/2008 8:24:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By OH_Varmntr:
Then why does Dunham's in Elyria sell 40-rd double-stack AK mags?


Because if you don't own anything that will accept AK mag then you can own them.  Or if you have an NFA registered firearm it's entirely legal.
Link Posted: 12/6/2008 9:33:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/6/2008 9:42:14 PM EDT by DNH]
I disagree, but don't feel like arguing it.  Someone who can do so needs to do a review of Ohio Supreme Court decisions on this and post up what they said on the subject several years ago.  Someone did that over at www.1919a4.com and found that the Court stated what I said above, but it has been several years ago, and I can't find it in their archives to quote it here.  The only reason I remember it is that I was arguing Shotar and Bigbore's version of the law in that thread, and whoever posted the Court decisions proved me completely wrong.  Wish I could either find the old thread or locate those types of case law myself to help everyone else out.
Link Posted: 1/7/2009 9:29:41 AM EDT
Is there any sort of "constructive intent" with possessing a  32+ mag and a gun to take it? I know its legal so long as its not in the gun, but can the "intent" approach be used with respect to this law?
Link Posted: 1/7/2009 3:26:31 PM EDT
Does anyone know if adding a suppressor make it legal to isert a 30+ round mag in a non-NFA host weapon. For instance a standard AR with quick attach can and a beta mag.
Link Posted: 1/9/2009 11:52:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By crazyelece:
Does anyone know if adding a suppressor make it legal to isert a 30+ round mag in a non-NFA host weapon. For instance a standard AR with quick attach can and a beta mag.


No the weapon is still not an NFA weapon only the can is NFA now a SBR or Auto is fine with a beta mag but i saw a post in here where a SBR with a beta mag is costing some guy up north a TON of money and heartaches because the local prosecutor is a jackass (gun was legal and registered but court is reading the law the way it works best for them it sounds like)
Link Posted: 2/8/2009 12:16:28 AM EDT
Originally Posted By shotar:
Originally Posted By Cincyplayground:
so if you have a 40 round mag or 75 round drum, is the illegal? thanks


It is not illegal to own, but it is illegal to put it into a semi auto non NFA rifle.


What about if you take your gun to another state with said mag, say.. KY. Can I put it on my gun then?
Link Posted: 2/9/2009 5:17:09 PM EDT
in that state yea, just not here.
Link Posted: 2/16/2009 4:21:56 PM EDT
Any opinions on coupled mags? Since the magazines are separate entities, does the coupler make them a single thing?
Link Posted: 2/17/2009 1:15:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/17/2009 1:16:15 PM EDT by bigbore]
Link Posted: 2/18/2009 6:15:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/18/2009 6:15:35 PM EDT by coltaceguy]
Interesting.


so my FFL who is from OHIO and holds his FFL there owns multiple BETA-mags for his AR-15s and Sig 556.

He is commiting a felony everytime he uses one of those in his rifle?
Link Posted: 2/18/2009 8:57:36 PM EDT
The OP mentions center fire.  I don't think that the statute is dependent on center versus rimfire.  It only excepts 22 caliber.

As stated in the OP, a 100 round magazine for a .17HMr weapon would be GTG, but I don't think that this the case.
Link Posted: 4/2/2009 11:02:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By shotar:
Beltfeds must load only 31 rounds.  32 round mags are not ok.  ...


So, for clarification, how would  this be applied to disintegrating and non-disintegrating belts?  For example... a 1919 with variable # of links, versus a cloth belt or something like the RPD belt which uses a segment of links of 50 that always has the possibility of loading more than ~30/31.  As long as ~30/31 are only loaded in a BELT that is not easily modified to hold less than 50,would that be good?  Or a no - go?  I hope the question is clear...
Link Posted: 4/3/2009 7:36:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/3/2009 7:36:49 PM EDT by benny429]
So I have to permanently modify my 32 round Sten mags (for my 9mm upper)?

What is the easiest way to do this?
Link Posted: 4/4/2009 10:52:54 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DNH:
I disagree, but don't feel like arguing it.  Someone who can do so needs to do a review of Ohio Supreme Court decisions on this and post up what they said on the subject several years ago.  Someone did that over at www.1919a4.com and found that the Court stated what I said above, but it has been several years ago, and I can't find it in their archives to quote it here.  The only reason I remember it is that I was arguing Shotar and Bigbore's version of the law in that thread, and whoever posted the Court decisions proved me completely wrong.  Wish I could either find the old thread or locate those types of case law myself to help everyone else out.


Well, above I did summarize the case law, which is directly contrary to your conclusion. I also noted that the Ohio Supreme Court has never addressed this issue, which remains true. I should also add that, over my intense objection, I have been forced to draft indictments based on the 32-round mag, and those indictments have resulted in conviction, which ought to be a pretty authoritative answer to this issue.
Link Posted: 4/5/2009 7:25:52 PM EDT
How about we, oh I don't know, start a petition or call up Buckeye Firearms Association and talk about REPEALING THE LAW?  That seams like a much better alternative than buttfucking over what the law means in arfcom.
Link Posted: 4/11/2009 6:11:32 PM EDT
Are they allowed to be used in an NFA gun ie an SBR.  If so does it matter if it is the short upper or a full size upper on the SBR lower
Link Posted: 4/11/2009 7:33:46 PM EDT
Originally Posted By EKUJustice:
Are they allowed to be used in an NFA gun ie an SBR.  If so does it matter if it is the short upper or a full size upper on the SBR lower



If you carefully work your way from the "automatic weapon" to "dangerous ordnance",,, then into the posession of "dangerous ordnance"  down to the  "exempt if properly registered in the National Firearms Registry Transfer Record",, and the 2923.11 will not apply to NFA firearms properly registered..... so fire 33 rounds or more, then reload without worry.
Link Posted: 4/11/2009 7:46:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By EKUJustice:
Are they allowed to be used in an NFA gun ie an SBR.  If so does it matter if it is the short upper or a full size upper on the SBR lower


Yeah I would like to know too. I thought about registering my Browning 1919A4 as a SBR so there is no limit to belt length, but I really wouldn't want to actually shorten the barrel.
Link Posted: 4/12/2009 10:04:19 PM EDT
Originally Posted By bookertbab:
Originally Posted By EKUJustice:
Are they allowed to be used in an NFA gun ie an SBR.  If so does it matter if it is the short upper or a full size upper on the SBR lower


Yeah I would like to know too. I thought about registering my Browning 1919A4 as a SBR so there is no limit to belt length, but I really wouldn't want to actually shorten the barrel.


If you really want to get complicated, you can apply from your local sheriff for a license to possess a dangerous ordnance, pursuant to ORC 2923.18.  This allows any person who gets the license to possess the dangerous ordnances.  See Below

(A) Upon application to the sheriff of the county or safety director or police chief of the municipality where the applicant resides or has his principal place of business, and upon payment of the fee specified in division (B) of this section, a license or temporary permit shall be issued to qualified applicants to acquire, possess, carry, or use dangerous ordnance, for the following purposes:

***

(5) In the discretion of the issuing authority, any responsible person, with respect to dangerous ordnance lawfully acquired, possessed, carried, or used for a legitimate research, scientific, educational, industrial, or other proper purpose.

***

B) Application for a license or temporary permit under this section shall be in writing under oath to the sheriff of the county or safety director or police chief of the municipality where the applicant resides or has his principal place of business. The application shall be accompanied by an application fee of fifty dollars when the application is for a license, and an application fee of five dollars when the application is for a temporary permit. The fees shall be paid into the general revenue fund of the county or municipality. The application shall contain the following information:

(1) The name, age, address, occupation, and business address of the applicant, if he is a natural person, or the name, address, and principal place of business of the applicant, if the applicant is a corporation;

(2) A description of the dangerous ordnance for which a permit is requested;

(3) A description of the place or places where and the manner in which the dangerous ordnance is to be kept, carried, and used;

(4) A statement of the purposes for which the dangerous ordnance is to be acquired, possessed, carried, or used;

(5) Such other information as the issuing authority may require in giving effect to this section.

(C) Upon investigation, the issuing authority shall issue a license or temporary permit only if all of the following apply:

(1) The applicant is not otherwise prohibited by law from acquiring, having, carrying or using dangerous ordnance;

(2) The applicant is age twenty-one or over, if he is a natural person;

(3) It appears that the applicant has sufficient competence to safely acquire, possess, carry, or use the dangerous ordnance, and that proper precautions will be taken to protect the security of the dangerous ordnance and ensure the safety of persons and property;

(4) It appears that the dangerous ordnance will be lawfully acquired, possessed, carried, and used by the applicant for a legitimate purpose.


Link Posted: 5/23/2009 3:04:45 PM EDT
Don't want to beat this to death, but doesn't seem this was clearly answered. (Then again, may have to talk to a lawyer to confirm)

Example, I own an NFA SBR. Is it then legal to use a 100round beta magazine? Or fire more than 31 rounds without reloading?
Link Posted: 5/23/2009 6:53:50 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/28/2009 10:39:15 PM EDT
These convesations have value.

I used to load my rifle magazines prior to going to the range.  I don't do that anymore.

I read a post after buying a 50 round magazine for my 10/22 50/22.  I thought I was screwed but now I understand I am not, provided it's not loaded until I arrive at the range.

I thought it would be be nice to own a couple of the new 40 rd AR magazines.  Probably not anymore.

My point is, these conversations have a lot of value.

Good stuff.  Thanks guys.
Link Posted: 7/2/2009 4:03:23 PM EDT
So what about an FN PS90 with a 30 round mag. that will also accept 50 rd. factory mags.?
Link Posted: 7/2/2009 4:24:49 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/15/2009 11:31:16 PM EDT
Ok who knows what the mag size limits are for hunting in OH for both centerfire and rimfire?
Link Posted: 7/21/2009 8:40:02 PM EDT
anything that is legal, are you talking varments or deer. if it's deer 3 slugs only. rimfire what ever the gun will hold for small game. say your using your ar for varmint hunting no more the 30
Link Posted: 7/25/2009 7:22:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/3/2010 1:01:31 PM EDT by Fields_Overseer]
Originally Posted By jimr:
anything that is legal, are you talking varments or deer. if it's deer 3 slugs only. rimfire what ever the gun will hold for small game. say your using your ar for varmint hunting no more the 30


this.  If your shooting coyotes or ground hogs, standard mags are fine...  if your using a 22, a 50 round will be fine... absurd, but legal

Now what if your using a 50 Beowulf pistol for deer?  is there a limit? *ok back on topic*
Link Posted: 8/18/2009 7:14:20 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Fields_Overseer:
Originally Posted By jimr:
anything that is legal, are you talking varments or deer. if it's deer 3 slugs only. rimfire what ever the gun will hold for small game. say your using your ar for varmint hunting no more the 30


this.  If your shooting coyotes or ground hogs, standard mags are fine...  if your using a 22, a 50 round will be fine... obsurd, but legal

Now what if your using a 50 Beowulf pistol for deer?  is there a limit? *ok back on topic*


not leagal in ohio. the law states straight wall pistol catridge

Link Posted: 9/4/2009 8:17:08 AM EDT
Originally Posted By IANALY:
Originally Posted By bookertbab:
Originally Posted By EKUJustice:
Are they allowed to be used in an NFA gun ie an SBR.  If so does it matter if it is the short upper or a full size upper on the SBR lower


Yeah I would like to know too. I thought about registering my Browning 1919A4 as a SBR so there is no limit to belt length, but I really wouldn't want to actually shorten the barrel.


If you really want to get complicated, you can apply from your local sheriff for a license to possess a dangerous ordnance, pursuant to ORC 2923.18.  This allows any person who gets the license to possess the dangerous ordnances.  See Below

(A) Upon application to the sheriff of the county or safety director or police chief of the municipality where the applicant resides or has his principal place of business, and upon payment of the fee specified in division (B) of this section, a license or temporary permit shall be issued to qualified applicants to acquire, possess, carry, or use dangerous ordnance, for the following purposes:

***

(5) In the discretion of the issuing authority, any responsible person, with respect to dangerous ordnance lawfully acquired, possessed, carried, or used for a legitimate research, scientific, educational, industrial, or other proper purpose.

***

B) Application for a license or temporary permit under this section shall be in writing under oath to the sheriff of the county or safety director or police chief of the municipality where the applicant resides or has his principal place of business. The application shall be accompanied by an application fee of fifty dollars when the application is for a license, and an application fee of five dollars when the application is for a temporary permit. The fees shall be paid into the general revenue fund of the county or municipality. The application shall contain the following information:

(1) The name, age, address, occupation, and business address of the applicant, if he is a natural person, or the name, address, and principal place of business of the applicant, if the applicant is a corporation;

(2) A description of the dangerous ordnance for which a permit is requested;

(3) A description of the place or places where and the manner in which the dangerous ordnance is to be kept, carried, and used;

(4) A statement of the purposes for which the dangerous ordnance is to be acquired, possessed, carried, or used;

(5) Such other information as the issuing authority may require in giving effect to this section.

(C) Upon investigation, the issuing authority shall issue a license or temporary permit only if all of the following apply:

(1) The applicant is not otherwise prohibited by law from acquiring, having, carrying or using dangerous ordnance;

(2) The applicant is age twenty-one or over, if he is a natural person;

(3) It appears that the applicant has sufficient competence to safely acquire, possess, carry, or use the dangerous ordnance, and that proper precautions will be taken to protect the security of the dangerous ordnance and ensure the safety of persons and property;

(4) It appears that the dangerous ordnance will be lawfully acquired, possessed, carried, and used by the applicant for a legitimate purpose.




So, has anyone actually applied for one of these Dangerous Ordnance licenses?  I get the feeling your average Sheriff would give you the "Deer in headlights" if you asked him for one.

Just trying to dot the I and cross the T.
Link Posted: 9/5/2009 3:23:10 PM EDT
Look here:


http://www.1919a4.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23994&highlight=ohio&page=3


A guy actually got one of them signed .
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