gun in question is a keltec P3AT.  i've been carrying it with just straight up winchester white box fmj thinking that at that power level penetration is gonna be my biggest concern.  but i see some hot loads for .380 being sold around.  what's the recomendation?

I recommend Gold Dots for the P3AT - it's what I carry/practice with in mine.

I carry the Winchester Silver Tips in my P-3AT.  Have never had a single jam with the Silver Tips and the terminal performance is real good too.

I currently use Federal Hydra-Shocks, but I'm going to take a look at Gold Dots

.380 is a pretty anemic round. All of the rounds suggested so far will fail to penetrate to the 12" minimum requirement. All .380 hollow points fail this test. You are better off using FMJ to get sufficient penetration. Stick with what you are using now.

www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=000037#000013

Here is the way I see this whole .380 debate.  The .380 is only a summer time gun, that is why I bought the P-3AT.  The gun loaded with 6+1 rounds it weighs less than a loaded 8 round 1911 mag.  It also doesn't print and I can carry it in a Nemisis holster in my pocket when wearing shorts that don't have belt loops.  

As to the penitration I would not carry it in the winter but in the summer when the thickest layer of clothing is a tee shirt I find it to be more than sufficient.  It's better than a sharp stick.

Quoted: Here is the way I see this whole .380 debate.  The .380 is only a summer time gun, that is why I bought the P-3AT.  The gun loaded with 6+1 rounds it weighs less than a loaded 8 round 1911 mag.  It also doesn't print and I can carry it in a Nemisis holster in my pocket when wearing shorts that don't have belt loops.   As to the penitration I would not carry it in the winter but in the summer when the thickest layer of clothing is a tee shirt I find it to be more than sufficient.  It's better than a sharp stick.

You really have it backwards as far as penetration goes. Heavy clothing has no significant effect on the penetration of FMJ rounds. It's effect on many JHP rounds is that heavy clothing tends to clog the HP, turning it into an FMJ and maximizing penetration. Shooting someone with .380 JHPs, when that person is wearing light summer clothes, will most likely lead to underpenetration problems, the number 1 issue with .380 rounds.

Go with FMJs in this caliber. Your round has to reach the vital organs to realisitically stand a chance of stopping the BG. Having the guy bleed out on the way to the hospital, after killing or maiming you, does you no good.

12"-14" of penetration could mean that the bullet has left the bad guy and is now on it's way towards an innocent bystander.

Quoted: 12"-14" of penetration could mean that the bullet has left the bad guy and is now on it's way towards an innocent bystander.

Unless said bad guy is turned slightly, has an arm up, is obese or a 'roid freak, etc...

OVERpenetration is far less of a worry than UNDERpenetration. One can get you sued. The other can get you dead.

Could a P3AT be an case were alternating FMJ and JHP might make some sense?

Alternating FMJ/JHP can cause feeding issues as well as messing up your grouping as both types will have a different POI, as well as recoil. Stick to one type or at least keep all FMJ in one mag, and the spare mag put JHP in it. In .380acp and 9x18Mak, FMJ is really the only good option as it will at least give you some penetration to reach vitals, and is more reliable in feeding in most cases.

I'd like to know the ARFCOM hive's opinion on this, too. Right now I'm thinking FMJ is the best bet for .380, both in terms of reliability and penetration.

As for overpenetration, I really don't think this is an issue for .380. As a matter of fact, I don't think it's an issue for any handgun round. The missed rounds are going to be more worrisome than rounds that penetrate the BG. Can anyone--ANYONE--actually cite a case in which a bystander was hit by a round that passed through a BG? ANYONE?

Winchester RA380T

I load Corbon Pow'r Ball in mine.  Good accuracy, very soft recoil, 100% reliable.

Regards,

Kevin

Fiochi or Winchester FMY.  They both have a flat meplt, which I think can lead to tissue tearing(like the 148gr Wadcutters in .38spec.).  They are also very hot, with the Fiochi being the hottest.

If it were up to me, I'd ditch the.380 all together.  Therre are several 9mms that are very close to the same size, and will give you a lil more umphf.

Any good .380 load will piss of a bad guy when they find out you shot them with it, especially out of tiny little pocket pistols.

Quoted: Any good .380 load will piss of a bad guy when they find out you shot them with it, especially out of tiny little pocket pistols.

[shrug]

I see my .380 as a step up from a knife in hand-to-hand.  At that range, I can hit something, and the bang alone is enough to make an opening for a good solid head shot.  It's not a replacement for a .44 rem mag at 10 yards, but it's another tool in the toolbox.

Of course, we would all rather have



in a gunfight, but that's not an option for most.

      ....SeeWiz....

FMJ. The quickest and most accurate shot placement in the world won't save your life if the bullet can't reach the CNS/heart/major arteries. I CCW a 9x18 Makarov (a little more powerful than the .380) and would carry the 95gr FMJ if not for the Silver Bear 115gr JHP @ 1,000fps.
Tomac

I don't think you'll get adiquate expansion out of the P3AT's barrel to worry about hollowpoints.  Taking that into consideration as well as the P3AT's less than stellar reliability record, i'd go with Fiocci FMJ.

Quoted: I recommend Gold Dots for the P3AT - it's what I carry/practice with in mine.

same here, it is pretty accurate and consistant . I shoot at 7 yards and maintain accuratcy. I also shoot Remington ball ammo. My carry round is gold dot. I also want to mention that i had 10 rounds of win silvertip, the 10 shot pretty well and also had better exspansion than the gold dot.

+1 on cocktailing.

JHP and FMJ alternating pattern.  I like pocket pistols.  James Bond killed xx villains with his .32 ACP, most of them dying by single shot

Quoted: Quoted: I recommend Gold Dots for the P3AT - it's what I carry/practice with in mine. same here, it is pretty accurate and consistant . I shoot at 7 yards and maintain accuratcy. I also shoot Remington ball ammo. My carry round is gold dot. I also want to mention that i had 10 rounds of win silvertip, the 10 shot pretty well and also had better exspansion than the gold dot.

By "better expansion", do you mean "more expansion"?  The two are not synonymous for an underpenetrating round like .380.

Quoted: +1 on cocktailing. JHP and FMJ alternating pattern.  I like pocket pistols.  James Bond killed xx villains with his .32 ACP, most of them dying by single shot

I think Ill go get some metal teeth like the "Jaws" guy in the Bond movies and bite the bad guys before I shoot them with a .32acp, it would probably hurt more...

I like the Hornady XTP ammo for .380.

I carry a Colt Mustang with Hydra Shok's, only in the summer when I have to tuck my shirt in, or when I really need to be discreet.  

FMJ or JHP, summer or winter, 6 rounds to the chest is going to make somebody think real hard about pursuing their present course of action.  Personally I think it would drop them, barring the presence of body armor or PCP...but that's what head shots are for.

I use some spanish ammo that has a flat unjacketed tip and seems pretty hot.

Ok, when we are screaming must penetrate to the vitals.  How far behind what I refer to as the chest plate are the vitals.  I am 6' and weight about 250lbs.  I am not fat but not skinny.  I wear a 34 paint comfortably.  From the front to the back of my chest is about 14 in I guess??.  That means that a bullet that penetrates around 8" to 10" will be all up in the vitals right?  Maybe I am wrong but penetration on a person at about 7' wearing a tee-shirt should be just fine with a 380 JHP.

I am not a fan of the 380 but you should be able to hit vitals just fine with a JHP or a FMJ.

Quoted: Ok, when we are screaming must penetrate to the vitals.  How far behind what I refer to as the chest plate are the vitals.  I am 6' and weight about 250lbs.  I am not fat but not skinny.  I wear a 34 paint comfortably.  From the front to the back of my chest is about 14 in I guess??.  That means that a bullet that penetrates around 8" to 10" will be all up in the vitals right?  Maybe I am wrong but penetration on a person at about 7' wearing a tee-shirt should be just fine with a 380 JHP. I am not a fan of the 380 but you should be able to hit vitals just fine with a JHP or a FMJ.

My preference is a bullet that makes a nice bulge under the skin of someones back consistently, without any variation due to body structure.  Maybe someday a manufacturer will design a bullet that can only penetrate skin once.

Quoted: Ok, when we are screaming must penetrate to the vitals.  How far behind what I refer to as the chest plate are the vitals.  I am 6' and weight about 250lbs.  I am not fat but not skinny.  I wear a 34 paint comfortably.  From the front to the back of my chest is about 14 in I guess??.  That means that a bullet that penetrates around 8" to 10" will be all up in the vitals right?  Maybe I am wrong but penetration on a person at about 7' wearing a tee-shirt should be just fine with a 380 JHP. I am not a fan of the 380 but you should be able to hit vitals just fine with a JHP or a FMJ.

Yes if the guy you are trying to kill will cooperate by standing squarely in front of you.  However i've heard that it is hard to get BGs to cooperate like that.  Instead they want to twist away and throw up their hands ( they are such wussies) putting bones and gunmetal in the way and making you shoot at weird angles while you are trying to duck away from the shot they just threw at you.  

From what i've heard it really doesn't matter if the .380 is a JHP or a FMJ as they don't expand reliably.

There is a reason that many experts consider 12 inchs of penetration to be minimal.

Well I guess since we have gone into sarcasm mode curt then it could be said that maybe we need to use .44 mags for all purposes because if you nick someone in the hand with one of those hand cannons because he is throwing up his hands or twisting then it will just blow him apart.  Little bits and all.  Small explosions and shit huh?  

It really will not matter if you’re using a .22 short or a .44 mag, if you can't hit what your shooting then nothing will happen except you being dead or hurt.  From what I have read a 380 Gold Dot has consistent penetration and performance however small of a window it may be due to lack of power.   A female Police Officer was killed close to where I work with a .380 and another was permanently injured with a shot to the arm with the same weapon.

Better to get a vital hit with a .22 than a miss with any other weapon.  If you can't hit the target because he is not cooperating and moving around and flinging his arms around then you better be able to run because there is no amount of gun gonna help you.

But guess what?  If you get a hit in the center of mass or other viable targets on the bad guy with a 380 guess what is gonna happen?  The same thing that happens with all guns and bullets.  It is going to poke a hole probably about 4" to 8” deep, maybe a little less or maybe a little more.  

I once saw cops were a pretty thick man was shot by his brother right above the nipple on the left side of his chest with a .25acp.  The bullet was under his skin on his back and he was still up walking around and screaming how bad it hurt and could not lay down because of the bullet on his back sticking under the skin.  That was a 25.

you missed my point (probably hiden in the sarcasm) that in the dynamics of  gunfight it is more prbable that you may need the round to go through several inches of arm before going laterally (side to side) through their chest.  It is unlikely that you will get that perfect straight on shot.

There is also a possbility that you will not make that perfect shot, all the more reason to practice hammers and NSR drills and to put that .44 away (cause recovery time is too long and who wants to clean up pieces of BG off your ceiling) ( oops there i go again).

At any rate this is offtopic.  you can email or IM me if you want to carry on with this line.

Na, I never doubted that.  A 380 will get the job done and the Gold Dot is a consistent expanding bullet that also has consistent penetration.  Shoot what you can target and shoot it until it is gone and then find something else to shoot until the threat is gone.  The arms, fingers, hands, feet, legs, hips shoulders and most any other bone will break upon the impact of a 380 so if you hit it, there will be gunshot wound damage that the attacker will more than likely not be able to fix until after the gun fight.

Never tried to shoot accurately after my forearm was slammed with a HP bullet at around 1000fps, I bet it would be hard!

Quoted: I once saw cops were a pretty thick man was shot by his brother right above the nipple on the left side of his chest with a .25acp.  The bullet was under his skin on his back and he was still up walking around and screaming how bad it hurt and could not lay down because of the bullet on his back sticking under the skin.  That was a 25.

I watched that episode a couple weeks ago, for as big and mean as the guy looked he sure did act like a bitch.

Quoted: Quoted: I once saw cops were a pretty thick man was shot by his brother right above the nipple on the left side of his chest with a .25acp.  The bullet was under his skin on his back and he was still up walking around and screaming how bad it hurt and could not lay down because of the bullet on his back sticking under the skin.  That was a 25. I watched that episode a couple weeks ago, for as big and mean as the guy looked he sure did act like a bitch.

I watched that too. I said "Holy S" when the guy walked away from the camera. Still wouldn't trust a .25 or a .380. That was a good example of why you have to hit the vitals to stop someone. The guy was kicking the crap out of garbage cans and yes, stomping around like a bitch. But, even being a bitch he would still be in the fight if so inclined and it wasn't his brother that shot him.

Quoted: ... I once saw cops were a pretty thick man was shot by his brother right above the nipple on the left side of his chest with a .25acp.  The bullet was under his skin on his back and he was still up walking around and screaming how bad it hurt and could not lay down because of the bullet on his back sticking under the skin.  That was a 25.

I personally saw that happen to a security guard at the hospital where I worked as an undergrad, with a .38 (cheap unjacketed LRN out of a snubbie).  He caught a young teenager (12 or 13 IIRC - too young to drive, I distinctly remember) trying to boost one of the nurse's cars from the employee parking deck; when he reached into the car for him the kid shot the guard with the .38 he'd just liberated from the car's glove box.  It entered just above the belly button and skirted the ribs under the skin, stopping around on the side - a clearly visible, protruding lump under the guy's skin.  The kid got away, but the guard actually walked upright into the ER (with just a little help).

The guard was stout and I'm sure the angle played a big part, but rest assured that nurse and I had a serious discussion about ammunition choice after everything calmed down.  (Understandably, the guard was pretty happy with her prior poor choice of ammo.)  

Yea he was screaming like a little bitch. LOL

Magsafe

The .380 round is very much a compromise.  However, the folks who have studied risk assessments have found that most LEO on-duty shootings are cross torso, whereas most off-duty and armed citizen self-defense shootings are frontal.  In addition (statistically speaking), the average male human torso (front to back) is only 10 inches, and the average male weighs less than 200 lbs.  

When the average CHL holder makes his compromises in choosing .380 ammo, he should probably pick one of the expanding rounds with 9-12" of penetration, because he will most likely be making a frontal shot if necessary for self defense.  When the average LEO picks a .380 load for on-duty work, he'd probably do better to chose the penetration side of the compromise rather than expansion.

The biggest weakness of the .380 is the fact that there are no rounds that both expand and will reliably penetrate the upper arm and then continue penetrating and reach the center of the chest on a man significantly larger than average.

For the CHL holder, my highest recommendation in .380 goes to the Federal Hydra-Shok and the Triton Quik-Shok.  For the LEO, my highest recommendation is to carry a bigger backup gun.

Michael Courtney

Quoted: ..d risk assessments have found that most LEO on-duty shootings are cross torso, whereas most off-duty and armed citizen self-defense shootings are frontal.  In addition (statistically speaking), the average male human torso (front to back) is only 10 inches, and the average male weighs less than 200 lbs.   Michael Courtney

could you provide a reference or link to these assessment and statistical studies?

For the CHL holder, my highest recommendation in .380 goes to the Federal Hydra-Shok and the Triton Quik-Shok.  For the LEO, my highest recommendation is to carry a bigger backup gun.

Could you provide a reference or some other indication why an LEO or CHL would care about your recommendation?

I don't mean to come off like a jerk but you have quoted assessments that i've never heard of and provided recommendations to LEO and i would just like to put your comments into perspective and maybe learn something at the same time.

Quoted: I carry the Winchester Silver Tips in my P-3AT.  Have never had a single jam with the Silver Tips and the terminal performance is real good too.

I also notice that the silvertip performs well, I carry the GoldDot in my P-3T only because I bought a box when I bought the gun. I had some silvertips lying around from my last 380. I shot those up just to see how they perform in my Kel-Tec and I was impressed in how they expanded. Matter of fact the silvertips expanded more than the Gold Dot.

Quoted: could you provide a reference or link to these assessment and statistical studies?

There is nearly ubiquitous agreement to these points in the literature.  It's hard to imagine that many serious folks disagree unless they spend a lot more time on internet forums than in more serious study.   LEO's often encounter deadly force situations when they approach a vehicle at a stop, meaning the criminal attacker is seated sideways to them.  LEO's also have a high number of shootings where they are coming to the aid of their partner.  The attacker is facing their parther, and they are shooting at the attacker from the side.   Being attacked from a criminal seated in a vehicle is very rare for a CHL holder.  Most CHL-involved shooting events are one-on-one deals where the shooting is much less likely to be justified unless the attacker is facing the CHL holder pretty directly.   The more the supposed "attacker" is angled away from directly frontal, the harder it tends to be for a CHL holder to make a case for and imminent threat from which retreat is not a viable option.  Think of it this way, if a CHL holder is shooting someone directly from the side, and their target turns as little as 10 degrees, the bullet can easily impact the back which is a legal nightmare.  

Almost any introductory statistics text will have the mean and standard deviation for the male weight.  Depending on the study, the mean will be anywhere from 158 to 174 lbs.  Look for an introductory anatomy book to get the average front to back distance at the sternum.

Quoted: Could you provide a reference or some other indication why an LEO or CHL would care about your recommendation? I don't mean to come off like a jerk but you have quoted assessments that i've never heard of and provided recommendations to LEO and i would just like to put your comments into perspective and maybe learn something at the same time.

I'm an NRA certified instructor for both Basic Pistol and Personal Protection in the Home.  I've trained both LEO's and CHL holders.  I'm also a scientest actively involved in research in the field of rapid incapacitation by handgun bullets.  I've reviewed a considerable volume of the scientific literature on the subject, and I've also participated in several independent research projects.

One should also consider the ability of a bullet to incapacitate the upper arm on a shooting from the side, because neither the FMJ nor the JHP in .380 is likely to cause rapid (< 10 seconds) incapacitation via the vitals once it reaches the chest if it had to penetrate the upper arm first.  Remember that most gunfights are very quick affairs lasting far less than 10 seconds, so if the effect of the bullet takes longer than 10 seconds, it isn't helping you much.  Unless the FMJ hits bone in the arm or shoulder, the attacker will retain nearly full use of the arm because there will be re;atively little soft tissue damage.  In contrast, with the Triton Quik-Shok or the Federal Hydra-Shok, there will be significant soft tissue damage even if the bullet does not hit bone.  In other words, there's a good chance of incapacitating at least one arm when hitting the upper arm with a good .380 JHP.  This doesn't ensure surviving the encounter, but it is a significant advantage for the rest of the battle.  Those folks who choose to carry the .380 need to face the fact that it will most likely take multiple hits to do the job.  Even if it hits bone, the rounded profile of the .380 FMJ designs are more lileky to glance off of bone with minimal damage than the flattened profile of a good JHP.

Michael Courtney

Quoted: ...

Welcome to this board, but... now you're asking for it.

The "in" crowd here worships at the alter of Fackler, and there is no room of the questioning of the magical 12" mark or suggesting that human bodies have bone and such, and are not made of Jello.

I wish you luck.

Quoted: Welcome to this board, but... now you're asking for it. The "in" crowd here worships at the alter of Fackler, and there is no room of the questioning of the magical 12" mark or suggesting that human bodies have bone and such, and are not made of Jello. I wish you luck.

Thanks for the welcome.

Even Fackler agrees that most CHL/CCW holders don't typically have the same penetration requirements as most LEOs.  The recognition that LEOs usually have greater penetration requirements than CHL/CCW  holders is nearly universal.  

And I agree with Fackler's recommendation that LEO duty ammo penetrate 12" (unless the nature of the duty is unusual, and overpenetration concerns are more than usual).  But we're not talking about duty ammo in service calibers, we're talking about the .380 ACP, which almost no one recommends for LEO use.   There's no need for an LEO to carry a .380 off duty since an LEO faces a much lower likelihood of professional repercussions if his off duty gun happens to print.  

Not many folks knowledgable in ballistics recommend .380 ACP for CHL/CCW use either, but as a trainer I realize that many non-LEOs legally carry in situations where it is very important that the fact that they are carrying not be recognized.  Combined with clothing requirements and style preferences, this tends to push many CHL holders toward the .380 ACP.  It certainly is a better choice than going unarmed or carrying a .32, .25, or 22LR, and most people tend to shoot it better than the mouse guns too.  

Most folks who recommend 12" of penetration for CHL/CCW are simply applying the LEO recommendation to CHL/CCW without considering the common differences in risk assessments and likely usage.  When applying the LEO recommendation to the .380, they are also applying a recommendation gained from considerations of duty ammo in service cartridges to a carttridge obviously underpowered for duty use.

Another fact that many folks miss entirely is that many CHL/CCW holders are much more likely to need their carry gun against an agressive canine than a criminal human attacker.  In a typical year, the largest hospital in my county (Akron General) has two or three times as many patients admitted for canine attacks than for criminal assaults that would justify deadly force.   This ratio is even higher in the summer time when jogger and cyclist CHL holders tend to lean more toward the .380 than heavier guns.   As an avid cyclist in suburban and rural areas, I've been threatened many more times by agressive canines than by potential human attackers.  My preferred carry arrangement is to carry a .357 Sig on each hip, but occasionally I carry one .357 Sig with a .380 as backup.  Against an agressive canine, I believe that the Fed HS or Triton QS loads that I carry in .380 would be much more effective than FMJ.  One dog which actually bit me had not been vacinated for rabies and waiting out the quarantine period was not my idea of a good time.  

Having said this, everyone needs to be aware that risk assessments vary greatly among CHL/CCW holders.  If a CHL holder has a restraining order against a sumo wrestler or other man who weighs over 300 lbs, the choice of a .380 should be altogether reconsidered in favor of a .40 S&W or a .45 ACP.  Even if a CHL holder can't identify most likely attackers, they should consider the most likely locations and situations in which they are likely to be attacked, and this is an important step in considering cartridge and penetration requirements.

Michael Courtney

This is some great reasoning and information -- kudos.

Quoted: This is some great reasoning and information -- kudos.

I should also mention that we've got numerical models which predict the average distance to carcass recovery for deer shot broadside through the center of the chest with certain handgun loads.  Our models predict the following recovery distances for .380 ACP loads:

Triton Quik-Shok 85-95 Yards
Federal HS JHP   110-120 Yards
Fed RN FMJ         180-200 Yards

Our model uses parameters measured from shooting the loads in gelatin.  We have not tested our models for .380 ACP because carcass recovery becomes problematic (some deer go as far as twice the average), and these incapacitation distances get into the realm beyond what most ethical hunters consider a quick, clean kill.  Our models have been shown to make accurate predictions for a wide range of loads from 9mm up through .308 rifle bullets, so it's not a big stretch to extrapolate downward to the .380 ACP.  

Of course we understand that deer are not people, but most handgun hunters recommend deer hunting loads with even greater penetration than self-defense loads, and the general expectation is that deer require greater penetration than humans.  So if 10" or so is adaquate in deer shot from the side, it certainly should be adaquate for humans shot from the front.

We have attempted to incapacitate smaller critters with the  .380 ACP FMJ.  The results have generally been so dismal that I think I'd rather carry my 22LR pistol with hollow points than my .380 if I was forced to carry FMJ in the .380, because the degree to which I can quickly place shots with 22LR better than my .380 would more than offset the difference in bullet effectiveness.    My 22LR is a Sig Trailside with 6" barrel, and I can put 10 hits in a baseball-sized group more quickly than I can hit the same sized area three times with my .380.  The 22LR just points much more naturally for me and fits my hand very well.  My .380 is a Sig P232.  It's a bit too small for my hand and doesn't point very well for me.  I'm good enough with the 22LR to bring head shots into play, and I'd much rather have the 22LR at ranges beyond 10 yards or if only a small part of the bad guy was exposed from behind cover.  We also did an experiment attempting to incapacitate fish swimming in water with near misses.  The pressure wave from a 22LR hollow point or a .380 hollow point would readily incapacitate and even kill fish with a near miss.  (It worked every time we tried it.)  The pressure wave from a .380 RN FMJ would not even incapacitate a tiny bluegill.   Both the 22LR and the .380 JHPs work much better on groundhogs, rabbits, and raccoons than the .380 FMJ.  When the .380 JHPs perform better than FMJs on everything from bluegill to deer, it's a big leap of faith to think that the FMJs will magically work better on humans.

Michael Courtney

CorBon new 380 DPX round should be out in next couple of weeks I know Barnes has shipped the bullets. This round was made with the Kel Tec in mind. I check  their web site last night and not listed yet. But Keep checking . I will be buying and testing in all my carry 380's For now I use the 90grHP from CorBon.

I have a Sig 232.  I like:

1st- Federal Hydra Shock 90 grain low recoil.  Very accurate.  Recoil is like a push rather than slap.

2nd - CorBon 90 grain JHP +P  Snappy recoil, more flash, but more power.  Very accurate.

Hornady's loading looks good too, but I've never tried it.

And people who say .380 is a BB gun haven't ever shot things with it.  It packs quite a little wallop.

That being said, I carry a Kahr PM9 when I need to go small.  
Victim of new technology.

My personal opinion is that 380 is on the 'edge' of where you pick JHP's over FMJ's.  32 on down, there's really no option, you've got to carry a FMJ.  9mm on up, there are good HP loads, and that's what you should carry.

In 380 and 9mm Mak, you've got choices, since all the JHP loads are marginal, but in some situations would be effective.  It's not so much that you can't make a bad choice as you can't make a good one.

In an Ideal world, noone would be stuck with the lowly 380.  Hell, in an Ideal world, we'd have 15+1 45's that were the size of a P3AT.  But in reality, pocket pistols are always a compromise.

Quoted: Hornady's loading looks good too, but I've never tried it.

The 90 grain XTP likes a bit more velocity than many .380's are likely to provide, and if it has to penetrate a barrier first, it is even more likely to fail to expand.

Great bullet up at 1700 FPS (.357 Sig), but marginal down under 1000 FPS.

Michael Courtney