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Posted: 11/26/2007 8:37:05 AM EDT
What are Delta and 6, etc, using now? What courses do they take? Do they all train for center-mass hits or head shots?

Thanks!
Link Posted: 11/26/2007 3:07:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/26/2007 3:07:46 PM EDT by BobCole]

Originally Posted By borat:
What are Delta and 6, etc, using now?


A) Classified, most likely.

B) Changes about every year or so, from what I hear. Sometimes left up to the unit or individuals to decide, on rare occassions.



What courses do they take? Do they all train for center-mass hits or head shots?


They train mostly in-house. Many times they will import an instructor if they think he's worth it.

Hit location is varying, depending on target exposure. These kind of guys aren't gonna be waltzing into a mass of target(s) of opportunities with a handgun, they're gonna be sliding thru the night.

Might I ask why you're asking?
Link Posted: 11/26/2007 3:08:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/26/2007 3:09:31 PM EDT by SHIVAN]
Oh boy. I'm glad we're in the "technical side" of the house.
Link Posted: 11/26/2007 3:33:19 PM EDT
Last I heard, Hi-Points.
Link Posted: 11/26/2007 4:16:49 PM EDT
VULCAN - Guns of the Special Forces
Link Posted: 11/26/2007 5:40:49 PM EDT
Bob Cole - I ask out of curiosity. Am reading Guests of the Ayatollah now, by Mark Bowden, about the Iran hostages in 79 and there's some chapters in there of Delta's planning the raid. Beckwith tells some dude that he's gonna put a bullet between the eyes of any guards so that got me thinking about what kinda pistols they might be using. I believe Eric Hainey said Delta, at the time he was in it, was using 1911s.

SIX used to use the 357 magnum and SEALs had MAC 10s - some of the last pistols I'd ever think the high speed guys would ever use. And I've seen pics of current day SEALs, likely SIX, that were carrying Sig P226s.

Would like to know what and why the current bad-asses use.
Link Posted: 11/26/2007 6:46:13 PM EDT
lots of random stuff being used from what i can tell, including:

-Sig P226s (maybe even P228/9?)
-HKs (Mk23, various versions of the HK 45 also being tested i hear)
-1911s (MEUSOC)
-M9s even maybe?
Link Posted: 11/26/2007 7:13:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/26/2007 7:14:34 PM EDT by SHIVAN]
Desert Eagle 50AE's with beamz.
Link Posted: 11/27/2007 12:26:30 AM EDT
Is Six even around?

The Smith and Wesson 686 still sees use in Seal Teams. I got this info straight from the mouth of a Seal that taught a class I took last year. He had only been out less then a year.
Not sure on anything else except the Sig 226 is still the Seals pistol.
Link Posted: 11/27/2007 1:35:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ALPHAGHOST:
lots of random stuff being used from what i can tell, including:

-Sig P226s (maybe even P228/9?)
-HKs (Mk23, various versions of the HK 45 also being tested i hear)
-1911s (MEUSOC)
-M9s even maybe?


Do you know what a MEU SOC is? Or the fact that only its 87 man MSOC have 45s and the rest of the 2000 guys have rifles, carbines and a few pistols.
Link Posted: 11/27/2007 2:28:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By R0N:

Do you know what a MEU SOC is?




Something a MEU wears on its foot when it wears shoes??????
Link Posted: 11/27/2007 2:31:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BobCole:

Originally Posted By R0N:
Do you know what a MEU SOC is?


Something a MEU wears on its foot when it wears shoes??????



I have nothing to add to the thread besides that.

Oh and that the Mk23 is a draw as needed weapon.
It is NOT used as a handgun.
Link Posted: 11/27/2007 2:40:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ALPHAGHOST:
-Sig P226s (maybe even P228/9?)

-M9s even maybe?


The Sig 228 has a military designation: M11. It is an issue side arm for some within the military.

As for the M9, it was the spec ops guys who first discovered these gun's weakness.

Spec ops are known for having used H&K Mp5s in various configurations. Often, they used 9mm NATO rounds in their H&K intended for special purposes - including 9mm NATO loads with 147 grn bullets and higher than US pressure NATO 9mm (there are over a dozen loadings that bear NATO headstamps within NATO - not US).

The sub-gun 9mm NATO ammo broke the locking blocks on early M9 and even cause slide separations leading to injury (Beretta quickly fixed the slide separation issue). The M9 it not strong enough to handle 9mm subgun ammo for any length of time.
Link Posted: 11/27/2007 3:32:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By borat:
Bob Cole - I ask out of curiosity.



That's cool, I was just curious as to why you asked, is all.
Link Posted: 11/27/2007 3:39:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CBR900:

Originally Posted By ALPHAGHOST:
-Sig P226s (maybe even P228/9?)

-M9s even maybe?


The Sig 228 has a military designation: M11. It is an issue side arm for some within the military.

As for the M9, it was the spec ops guys who first discovered these gun's weakness.

Spec ops are known for having used H&K Mp5s in various configurations. Often, they used 9mm NATO rounds in their H&K intended for special purposes - including 9mm NATO loads with 147 grn bullets and higher than US pressure NATO 9mm (there are over a dozen loadings that bear NATO headstamps within NATO - not US).

The sub-gun 9mm NATO ammo broke the locking blocks on early M9 and even cause slide separations leading to injury (Beretta quickly fixed the slide separation issue). The M9 it not strong enough to handle 9mm subgun ammo for any length of time.




The slide separations, if I remember right, were literally front/rear separations, not whole slides.

However, Beretta didn't really fix it THAT fast, they blamed it on the ammunition when in fact standard ammunition was being used. The slides were simply not up to par with regards to the quality of the metal. I have heard several explanations for that, but Beretta took long enough fixing it that they pissed off the SEALs by blaming them.
Link Posted: 11/27/2007 4:06:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/27/2007 4:10:53 PM EDT by AZ-AR15]

Originally Posted By R0N:

Originally Posted By ALPHAGHOST:
lots of random stuff being used from what i can tell, including:

-Sig P226s (maybe even P228/9?)
-HKs (Mk23, various versions of the HK 45 also being tested i hear)
-1911s (MEUSOC)
-M9s even maybe?


Do you know what a MEU SOC is? Or the fact that only its 87 man MSOC have 45s and the rest of the 2000 guys have rifles, carbines and a few pistols.


Huh? All the recon battalions have em. And DET 1 is gone, there is 1st and 2nd MSOB now.

Link Posted: 11/27/2007 4:13:39 PM EDT
Our BN recons and RRT guys have a few M9s but most of them only have their M4s, the only guys in east coast with the 45s are MSOCs that are part of the MSOB while the rest of MARSOC, like MSOAG don't have them.

30-worst MEU is a little different than the rest of the Marine Corps, III MEF is kind of a backwater when it comes to what is happening the rest of the Marines. I and II MEF MEUs only assume the SOC designation while the MSOC is attacked to them But since the standard practice is to detach the MSOC out of the MEU when they chop in to 5th Fleet/MARCENT means they are no longer MEU-SOCs in theater.
Link Posted: 11/27/2007 4:17:18 PM EDT
meusoc pistols mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. ww2 .....mmmmmm......breaking every 30 minutes........whats not to like? hi az-ar15
Link Posted: 11/27/2007 4:23:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AZ-AR15:

Originally Posted By R0N:

Originally Posted By ALPHAGHOST:
lots of random stuff being used from what i can tell, including:

-Sig P226s (maybe even P228/9?)
-HKs (Mk23, various versions of the HK 45 also being tested i hear)
-1911s (MEUSOC)
-M9s even maybe?


Do you know what a MEU SOC is? Or the fact that only its 87 man MSOC have 45s and the rest of the 2000 guys have rifles, carbines and a few pistols.


Huh? All the recon battalions have em. And DET 1 is gone, there is 1st and 2nd MSOB now.



Last time I knew anything about it (end of 2006), the battalions had M9s and force used springfield 1911s.
Link Posted: 11/27/2007 4:26:50 PM EDT
I stand corrected. 31st has got me all screwed up
Link Posted: 11/27/2007 5:26:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/27/2007 5:48:09 PM EDT by ALPHAGHOST]

Originally Posted By R0N:

Originally Posted By ALPHAGHOST:
lots of random stuff being used from what i can tell, including:

-Sig P226s (maybe even P228/9?)
-HKs (Mk23, various versions of the HK 45 also being tested i hear)
-1911s (MEUSOC)
-M9s even maybe?


Do you know what a MEU SOC is? Or the fact that only its 87 man MSOC have 45s and the rest of the 2000 guys have rifles, carbines and a few pistols.


yea, so...its in there somewhere (or use to be)--
so, whats the listings for the units/detachments that still use the 1911s?

last #s i heard were ~500 1911s still being used in ceratin usmc marsoc groups...if any are still using em

then there are those stories a while back about some of em testing .40sw double stacks (para ord i think...), but i dont know about them either



Originally Posted By R0N:
Our BN recons and RRT guys have a few M9s but most of them only have their M4s, the only guys in east coast with the 45s are MSOCs that are part of the MSOB while the rest of MARSOC, like MSOAG don't have them.

30-worst MEU is a little different than the rest of the Marine Corps, III MEF is kind of a backwater when it comes to what is happening the rest of the Marines. I and II MEF MEUs only assume the SOC designation while the MSOC is attacked to them But since the standard practice is to detach the MSOC out of the MEU when they chop in to 5th Fleet/MARCENT means they are no longer MEU-SOCs in theater.


nevermind, thanks for the clarification/update
Link Posted: 11/27/2007 6:28:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SkagSig40:
Is Six even around?


SEAL Six is now "Naval Special Warfare Development Group", or "DEV Group".

Sounds nice and innocuous and harmless doesn't it, like a bunch of office people making financial forecasts. As is intended.
In a few years or so, it'll be something else.
Link Posted: 11/27/2007 7:06:02 PM EDT
When I hear DEV Group, I think of a bunch of network engineers who are hammering away on their development servers prior to going to the production enviro.

I think it works just as good as if they would have called themselves the "Care Bears" or the "Wiggles".



The network engineers that is....
Link Posted: 11/28/2007 4:01:36 PM EDT
The US has traditionally liked non-descriptive, non-threatening names for the really scary people.

As example:
First Special Services Force. (A field kitchen unit?)
SEAL. (A cute water mammal.)
Blue Light. (K-Mart? )
Delta. (A fraternity?)
Dev Group. (Engineers?)
"The Greek Projects" of Vietnam: Gamma, Sigma, Delta, etc, (More fraternities?).
Studies and Observation Group--SOG, (A photography unit?)
etc.

Point is, they sound like a million other obscure, harmless military units studying fish habits in Icelandic waters, but when you look inside you see a really scary person like Jerry "Mad Dog" Schriver looking out.
Link Posted: 11/28/2007 4:35:54 PM EDT
height=8
Originally Posted By R0N:
Our BN recons and RRT guys have a few M9s but most of them only have their M4s, the only guys in east coast with the 45s are MSOCs that are part of the MSOB while the rest of MARSOC, like MSOAG don't have them.

30-worst MEU is a little different than the rest of the Marine Corps, III MEF is kind of a backwater when it comes to what is happening the rest of the Marines. I and II MEF MEUs only assume the SOC designation while the MSOC is attacked to them But since the standard practice is to detach the MSOC out of the MEU when they chop in to 5th Fleet/MARCENT means they are no longer MEU-SOCs in theater.


Things must have changed since the creation of MSOC. In 1992 I deployed with 11th MEU(SOC). We had to complete several tasks during pre deployment work ups in order to be SOC. Raids, NEO's, oil platform assault, rescue of aircraft personnel and equipment, etc, etc.
Link Posted: 11/28/2007 5:03:11 PM EDT
Awright - but does anybody know what pistols the high speed guys are using?
Link Posted: 11/28/2007 9:23:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/28/2007 9:28:47 PM EDT by Rod357]
USMC Force Recon when i was in the corps were issued MEUSOC .45 Springfield 1911's tricked out by 2112 armorer's out of quantico. At the time they were equivalent to 1911's of today (TRP, CQB Tac LE etc). They were built off of Springfield frames and were added off the shelf parts to make them more reliable. I think somebody is making the MEUSOC's The name passes me. The EOD team attach to them were issued M9's with SF lights. Seals that deployed with us had a handfull of weapons at their disposal. I saw sigs, glocks HK's, .Suppressed .22's etc...I deployed with the 15 MEU from 92-96 and i was the MEU's armorer...so i got to see alot of the high speed low drag stuff regularly..

height=8
The slide separations, if I remember right, were literally front/rear separations, not whole slides


We had to Change out every single slide assem. on every M9 we had in the inventory.
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 6:41:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Rod357:
USMC Force Recon when i was in the corps were issued MEUSOC .45 Springfield 1911's tricked out by 2112 armorer's out of quantico. At the time they were equivalent to 1911's of today (TRP, CQB Tac LE etc). They were built off of Springfield frames and were added off the shelf parts to make them more reliable. I think somebody is making the MEUSOC's The name passes me. The EOD team attach to them were issued M9's with SF lights. Seals that deployed with us had a handfull of weapons at their disposal. I saw sigs, glocks HK's, .Suppressed .22's etc...I deployed with the 15 MEU from 92-96 and i was the MEU's armorer...so i got to see alot of the high speed low drag stuff regularly..


The slide separations, if I remember right, were literally front/rear separations, not whole slides


We had to Change out every single slide assem. on every M9 we had in the inventory.


Yes, the metal was not up to par, IIRC. I meant that the slide separated neatly in half and the rear half kept going rearward.
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 8:23:34 AM EDT
In a strange twist of art imitating life, members of the First Special Services Force were called Forcemen, and the unit was refered to as 'The Force'. Because of the generic name, some senior commanders at the Corps\Army\Group level would see the unit on a TOE and want to know what two USO shows were doing in their area, and why weren't they informed? Trust 'The Force'.


Originally Posted By dfariswheel:
First Special Services Force. (A field kitchen unit?)
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 6:45:22 PM EDT
What was it they use to say " You aren't a SEAL unless youve eaten Italian steel"
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 8:31:16 AM EDT
The 45ACP models, right?
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 5:42:25 PM EDT
WOW...

This thread is full of facts.
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 5:54:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By S-1:
WOW...

This thread is full of facts.


S-1, would you please fill us in on whats wrong and what is right?
After all, you do have firsthand knowledge on the subject.
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 5:56:30 PM EDT
No Desert Eagle with beamz?



Link Posted: 12/2/2007 7:13:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/2/2007 7:14:08 PM EDT by S-1]

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:

Originally Posted By S-1:
WOW...

This thread is full of facts.


S-1, would you please fill us in on whats wrong and what is right?
After all, you do have firsthand knowledge on the subject.


I'm not in the Special Operations field nor am I in the Military. I have had a few conversations with people that are though.

Shivan.... They all purchase Deagles w/ beamz because they are more powerful and intimidating than what is issued.
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 7:18:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By S-1:
Shivan.... They all purchase Deagles w/ beamz because they are more powerful and intimidating than what is issued.


Knew it.
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 7:31:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:

Originally Posted By S-1:
WOW...

This thread is full of facts.


S-1, would you please fill us in on whats wrong and what is right?
After all, you do have firsthand knowledge on the subject.



He could have just said "almost all of it."
Link Posted: 12/3/2007 11:19:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/3/2007 11:21:30 AM EDT by John_Wayne777]

Originally Posted By borat:
Awright - but does anybody know what pistols the high speed guys are using?


Various units use different weapons. You will find:

M9's
P226
MK 23
1911's
Glocks

Most of what you hear on the internet about what high speed guys use and why is baloney. Also remember that what gets issued isn't necessarily what everyone likes.
Link Posted: 12/3/2007 11:29:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:

Originally Posted By borat:
Awright - but does anybody know what pistols the high speed guys are using?


Various units use different weapons. You will find:

M9's
P226
MK 23
1911's
Glocks

Most of what you hear on the internet about what high speed guys use and why is baloney. Also remember that what gets issued isn't necessarily what everyone likes.


I heard they were using PS90s with EOTechs...
Link Posted: 12/3/2007 1:48:17 PM EDT
heard a story about DEV group... forgot how it went.!
Link Posted: 12/3/2007 2:12:04 PM EDT
I thought this is what they were using for PDW's


And yes that's a .50BMG pistol.
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