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Posted: 2/14/2006 2:56:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/14/2006 2:58:41 PM EDT by triburst1]
Man, these guys are something else. You know the type. You may even be one of them. The guys who shoot IDPA matches with a GLOCK 34 in a paddle holster but never carry anything more than a P-32 in a pocket holster in real life. The guys who carry J-frames everyday but shoot a custom 1911 with downloaded match rounds running 650 FPS at IDPA. The oversized shooting vests used for "concealment" and knee pads worn under the pants are two other good examples.

I know this has become the excepted norm and I understand that many guys just shoot for trophies and bragging rights, but IDPA was started to get away from this type of stuff.

Oh well. It's fun to beat those guys using my EDC G19 in a IWB holster under a sweatshirt.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 3:08:19 PM EDT


Oh well. It's fun to beat those guys using my EDC G19 in a IWB holster under a sweatshirt


Link Posted: 2/14/2006 6:02:35 PM EDT
Different strokes....

I've been in both camps, now to me it is just FUN!!! Doesn't matter if I use a custom STI with a speed rig or a Glock 19 with an IWB holster. When I do get to shoot a match I go out to have fun and practice manipulation and shooting. IPSC/IDPA are not training, they are practice in my mind.

Link Posted: 2/14/2006 6:19:22 PM EDT
I like IDPA and when I shoot I want to win. I shoot a gun I carry some and yes I reload. I play by the rules, try to have fun, and improve my shooting. As far as I'm concerned, there is no incentive to "cheat" locally or at a sanctioned match. There is nothing to gain with the exception of a plaque that would collect dust in the corner of the attic.

Unfortunately the difference between cheating and gaming for some is undefinable. It is a game with judgement calls and if a shooter can get close to the edge without getting called, so be it. If you are savvy enough to avoid procedural happy SO's at a sanctioned match, well done. If you show up with your carry gear to test the equipment and get some trigger time, great. If you show up to b.s. and see your friends, good deal.

I don't judge anyone whether gaming, practicing, or time killing. I have decided to make IDPA for me and not worry about the rule whining and the finger pointing. I plan to make some close sanctioned matches (IDPA and USPSA)again this year, play by the rules, and let the cards fall where they may. Refreshing thing about USPSA is that you are rewarded for finding a better way and it's pretty much understood that all are gunning for the best HF. I understand why IDPA was started but there will always be problems with the gray areas. Doesn't bother me anymore(IDPA) cause I'm there for grins.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 8:51:09 PM EDT
It would be no fun for me unless I was using a regular pistol with a regular holster and using at least normal loaded ammo. That would be fun.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 8:45:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By simonsay:
I have decided to make IDPA for me and not worry about the rule whining and the finger pointing.


+1 Everyone should have this attitude.

I shoot becuase it's fun.

I have to chuckle at the IDPA whiners who are always crying about the "gamers" ruining their sport. Guess what, it's a game! It's not training. As soon as you start making rules and keeping score, it's a game. And people will do everything allowed within the rules to win. That is human nature.

The "gamers" only affect the whiners who get their egos bruised easily. If your goal is to shoot the match in the most tactically sound method possible, great. do it! If my goal is to complete the coures in the least amount of time, with no penalties, great. I'll do that. We can both get out of the sport what we want to. I fail to see what the problem is.

Do you really care if you were beat by a "gamer" and your name isn't at the very top of the scoresheet? So what do you loose out on? bragging rights? so what?
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 10:41:26 AM EDT
IDPA/USPSA- guess what-- they're both games!! Albeit with differing rules. To the IDPA guys who don't like guys thinking outside of Uncle Bill's box- it's a game, just because you didn't read the rules carefully doesn't mean the other guy is any less of a competitor (OR more of a CHEATER) for doing so. To the USPSA/IPSC guys who deride the IDPA guys- it's another game with different rules, choose your playing field.

I've gotten to the point when I shoot one or the other, (and I shoot both) I don't mention the other game. I just go to shoot the match and get more trigger time. I figure that time on the trigger is better than boycotting a game just because I might not agree with all the rules.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 1:24:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/15/2006 1:28:39 PM EDT by WesDesRat]
I have nothing against gamers, even if one did ask the dumb question: "Why do you feel like you have to carry a gun all the time?"

I just smiled and nodded. Ignorance is truely bliss.

I shoot in the games for two reasons: Practice skills with some level of stress AND its fun.

Gaming is not training, but it can help you keep up with and improve basic skills. Those skills may or may not apply to real world, life and death situations. ETA: If you are going to game, decide ahead of time wether you want to play by the IDPA/IPSC/etc rule book, or play it "for real" and take the penalties (god forbid your mag pouches not cover 50% of the magazine body).

I'll tell you this much: I'm smoother and faster when I've been practicing, than when the "season" is over and I dont get out as much.

Glock ... IWB ... sweater ... Nothing wrong with that
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 1:38:42 PM EDT
I really have nothing against them either. I simply find it amusing that so many people shoot a "DEFENSIVE PISTOL" match with weapons and gear that has nothing to do with thier defensive pistol. The gamers around here are almost always beaten by someone like myself who is using their real world gear. We may not use the high speed match stuff, but we take our practice more seriously. I think it is because we practice to live while the other guys practice to win.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 2:42:01 PM EDT
Ok, so am I a "gamer"? I shoot AND carry a G21. I use a Fobus paddle holster when competeing and an IWB of indeterminate origin (that would never ever pass IDPA rule muster) or my briefcase when carrying. In real terms, because I'm not competing with what I use when actually carrying because Uncle Billy doesn't like it, am I a gamer? When competing in either format, I look for the best, most efficient method to shoot the stage, is that "gaming"?. I take these matches as a game, pure and simple because that's what it is in either format, again with differing rules.

From another perspective for those who assert the games to be practice. If you ever have the misfortune to have to use your carry/competition piece for real, and the circumstances be the least bit questionable, a really shrewd prosecutor could make the case that you engaged in a premeditated act. After all, you compete with the gun you carry and you proclaim the matches to actually be "practice" as you're trying to simulate "real world" scenarios. He'll say- "practice for what? Killing human beings? Your Honor, the defendant plainly and admittedly engages in games that simulate the death of multiple human beings, and that with the very gun that he used on the deceased!" And imagine what a sensationalist local liberal media would make of that! You think Cheney is having problems...

For the reasons I've laid out, I find the entire discussion about "gamers" to be frivolous at best and devious whining at worst. Let's be real, there will always be somebody faster, more accurate, smarter, richer, quicker, and better looking.

So says I, Shut up and shoot, play the games and quit whining about what the "other guy" does.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 3:26:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 3gundave:
....
From another perspective for those who assert the games to be practice. If you ever have the misfortune to have to use your carry/competition piece for real, and the circumstances be the least bit questionable, a really shrewd prosecutor could....




ohhh come on...


you arnt a lawyer.... are you?

Any reasonable person that would equate participating in "games" to pre-meditation is no longer a reasonable person in my book. Facts are facts... a good shoot is a good shoot. A street punk picks a a fight with a top smallbore 3 position shooter that just finished a match, said punk gets a .22LR target round in the left eye socket... and its the target shooters fault for putting the bullet where it was supposed to go?

Go play the games for whatever reason you like, using whatever equipment you like...
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 3:44:39 PM EDT
I wouldn't put anything past a lawyer. There's a case right now in NC where a woman was being transported in an ambulance, who decided she didn't want the ambulance ride, unbuckled her seat belt, opened the ambulance door and jumped out. She died 6 days later because she didn't take into account the ambulance was going 40mph towards the hospital. EMT and the ambulance service are being sued for $2mil. Now assume a liberal DA, coupled with a questionable shoot, and an antigun environment, and there's not telling what you'll get.

I'm merely trying to point out the absurdity of the whole "gamer" debate. If you want to prove one direction, why not look at the other? Again I ask, where do you draw the line at just what or who is a "gamer" when the entire match format either way is a game?
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 6:28:43 AM EDT
My problem is not what the gamers gain in the match. I question what they are losing in the street. I look at IDPA as preperation for realistic situations, but understand that not everyone views it in the same way. I am probably in the minority in that the only reason I shoot is to train to fight. If the only reason to own a pistol was to compete, I would probably take up bowling.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 6:33:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 3gundave:
Ok, so am I a "gamer"? I shoot AND carry a G21. I use a Fobus paddle holster when competeing and an IWB of indeterminate origin (that would never ever pass IDPA rule muster) or my briefcase when carrying. In real terms, because I'm not competing with what I use when actually carrying because Uncle Billy doesn't like it, am I a gamer? When competing in either format, I look for the best, most efficient method to shoot the stage, is that "gaming"?. I take these matches as a game, pure and simple because that's what it is in either format, again with differing rules.

From another perspective for those who assert the games to be practice. If you ever have the misfortune to have to use your carry/competition piece for real, and the circumstances be the least bit questionable, a really shrewd prosecutor could make the case that you engaged in a premeditated act. After all, you compete with the gun you carry and you proclaim the matches to actually be "practice" as you're trying to simulate "real world" scenarios. He'll say- "practice for what? Killing human beings? Your Honor, the defendant plainly and admittedly engages in games that simulate the death of multiple human beings, and that with the very gun that he used on the deceased!" And imagine what a sensationalist local liberal media would make of that! You think Cheney is having problems...

For the reasons I've laid out, I find the entire discussion about "gamers" to be frivolous at best and devious whining at worst. Let's be real, there will always be somebody faster, more accurate, smarter, richer, quicker, and better looking.

So says I, Shut up and shoot, play the games and quit whining about what the "other guy" does.



Link Posted: 2/16/2006 6:36:05 AM EDT
Why are you so concerned with what other are doing. They are in no way interfering with you so why do you care so much.

Before you say you don't care you did post this topic it means you do care.


Link Posted: 2/16/2006 3:31:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By triburst1:
I look at IDPA as preperation for realistic situations...



If, from a statistical perspective, IDPA stages were realistic, they would be so boring that no people would participate.

Some parts of some stages can be realistic but one proven "tactic" that I've never seen at an IDPA match, even when the shooter faces no win odds, is "RUNNING".

I think when shooters reach a higher level like ex or ma in IDPA or B or better in USPSA they look at the process, the games, and their benefits in a different light. Not necessarily directing this at you but it seems to me that the lower classified shooters tend to get their feathers ruffled a bit easier when it comes to the intent of the games and their view of the people who don't appear to subscribe to the same theories. Just an observation. good luck and remember to have fun
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 6:31:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/16/2006 6:32:59 PM EDT by wolffie]
I shoot IDPA, and I generally carry a version of the gun that I'm shooting currently. SSP is a Glock 34, so I carry a 19. The Glock 34 lives in my nightstand. I do use a different holster because I'm putting myself at a disadvantage in the game with the IWB and I can't re-holster the IWB easily. I do practice with my carry holster, but I compete with my belt holster. I shoot a full size 1911 is ESP (9mm) and CDP (45acp), but I carry it in a Galco VSH. Can't use the VSH in IDPA. I wear the 5.11 vest just like everybody else. SO WHAT? It gets the job done. I'm reasonably competitive in my class and division having taken home a few trophies. It's a game and I want to win.

Wearing reasonable gear within the limits of the rules is NOT "gaming." There's equipement that works with you and equipement that works against you. And where did you get the idea that the Fobus was an "advantage?" They suck. Most people shoot out of a fobus because they are getting there feet wet and don't want to drop the coin on a Blade Tech. I shoot out of a Safariland 5183 or a 560. Yeah, I can draw it a half-second faster than my IWB. But the real reason is they are more convenient. Ya wanna know why I know I can draw half a second faster out of the belt rig? Because I practice with both on a timer.

I see "Gamers" as something different. To my eye, they are the guys that try to buy skill yet don't put a lot of time into practice. The guys that spend a ton of money on gadgets, ultralight trigger jobs, and download the ammo to just scrap powerfactor and spend there time shopping instead of shooting. The marginal benefit of such modifications is often better suited to top level shooters. Breaking down a stage and figureing out when and where you're going to reload, etc., just makes sense, and it's what often separates the Sharpshooters/Experts from Marksman. The ability to capitalize on the gameplan consistently is what separates Experts/Masters from the rest.

"Sandbaggers" are another topic all together. Perhaps, instead of bitching about the "gamers," you should spend more time practicing so you can show them up?
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 7:35:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By wolffie:
Perhaps, instead of bitching about the "gamers," you should spend more time practicing so you can show them up?



Perhaps you missed where I stated that I enjoy beating them most of the time. I am NOT worried about them gaining an advantage because I beat them more often than not. I am saying that by being more concerned with pushing the rules than practicing to be proficient with their real world gear, they are missing the whole point.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 8:18:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By triburst1:

Originally Posted By wolffie:
Perhaps, instead of bitching about the "gamers," you should spend more time practicing so you can show them up?



Perhaps you missed where I stated that I enjoy beating them most of the time. I am NOT worried about them gaining an advantage because I beat them more often than not. I am saying that by being more concerned with pushing the rules than practicing to be proficient with their real world gear, they are missing the whole point.



I think we're on the same page to a certain extent. I just don't see 5.11 vests and belt holsters as "gaming." They're just convenient for me.
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 2:05:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By triburst1:
My problem is not what the gamers gain in the match. I question what they are losing in the street. I look at IDPA as preperation for realistic situations, but understand that not everyone views it in the same way. I am probably in the minority in that the only reason I shoot is to train to fight. If the only reason to own a pistol was to compete, I would probably take up bowling.




Well said.
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 3:11:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/17/2006 3:13:18 AM EDT by gotm4]

Originally Posted By 3gundave:
IDPA/USPSA- guess what-- they're both games!! Albeit with differing rules. To the IDPA guys who don't like guys thinking outside of Uncle Bill's box- it's a game, just because you didn't read the rules carefully doesn't mean the other guy is any less of a competitor (OR more of a CHEATER) for doing so. To the USPSA/IPSC guys who deride the IDPA guys- it's another game with different rules, choose your playing field.

I've gotten to the point when I shoot one or the other, (and I shoot both) I don't mention the other game. I just go to shoot the match and get more trigger time. I figure that time on the trigger is better than boycotting a game just because I might not agree with all the rules.



Very well said.

Anytime there's a timer and a scorekeeper it's a GAME. I shoot both and usually get penalized because I forget to retain mags with rounds still in them or not having the slide lock open or I move without a mag seated while shooting IDPA. Oh well it's still a ton of fun. You know what helped my IDPA game? Shooting USPSA Production did.

For the money USPSA Production is the best bet going with much higher round counts per dollar spent on a match. I even compete in ICORE and 3 gun as well. Do I see these games as training? No, but it is gun handling and it helps with getting very proficient with my pistols, revolvers, ARs and shotguns shooting at different distances and under a little stress and shooting in weird position etc. These are things that you really can't duplicate at the range just casually shooting. And it's cheaper than taking a training course. Training courses are great, I'm taking a 5 day, 3K rifle round/ 750 round pistol Carbine Operators course at Blackwater soon, this costs $1K. I don't have the time or money to take a course 4-5 times per month like I do a match. And I think training and match shooting compliment each other. YMMV.
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 3:55:51 AM EDT
Any type of competition is a game. The targets don't shoot back and nothing more than an award or your ego is at stake. That being said. I am an LEO and a Firearms/Tactics Instructor. I shoot IDPA because it is practice and trigger time and I have fun doing it. I enjoy the interaction with other shooters.

However I also try to keep it as realistic and true to my training as possible. Having your legs 100 % behind cover is good, allowing your body and head to be 50% exposed is giving the suspect/badguy a 50% better chance of hitting you in a vital area. I keep my exposure at less than 25%. I constantly have other shooters remark on my use of cover. That effects my time/score. Yet I still average 4th place overall against all the "gamers". My accuracy is better than the shooters who "beat" me. Again I'm trying to keep it as "realistic" as I can.

I see IDPA as a chance for people to test out their training and practice, not as training. I have the advantage of a range with 20 pepper poppers, plate racks, moving targets and humanoid targets. I can use it whenever I want and set up whatever type of situations I choose. Most shooters don't have that at their disposal. So they shoot IDPA.

Shoot it with what you want, for your own reasons, whatever they may be. If you do it for pure sport and game it up, so be it. If you use your daily carry gear and keep it as "real" as you can, so be it. Get something out of it and have fun. And if you beat someone who is "gaming" it to the max, enjoy that slyyou have on your face.

Oh and before anyone asks, both my wife and I use our carry guns and gear. Mitch Rosen ARG's and a Glock 26 for the wife and a Glock 22 or a 1911 depending on which division I'm shooting.
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 5:33:06 AM EDT
I shoot both IDPA and USPSA, but I GREATLY prefer USPSA for higher round counts and much lower probability of incurring a Dudley Doright penalty.

Case in point, at a recent IDPA match, I was accused of gaming for not using cover the way the stage designer intended. Never mind the FACT that my method had my body much more behind cover with nothing exposed past what was needed to engage the targets. The benefit to me was a much more stable firing position. But since the designer/RO didn't like my idea, it was gaming and I was threatened with a Dudley. I was within the stage description, but not how he wanted me to stand, never mind my method wasn't expressly forbidden either in the description, nor by the rules of IDPA. I'll still shoot IDPA, but folks who think it's some really great way to train for the real world need a reality check. Most gunfights are over in less than 5 seconds, right, 5 seconds and at less than 7 yards. Just where are you going to engage 15 BGs with "tactical" reloads with a HANDGUN at distances up to 25 yards in the "real world" in the US? When are you going to have the presence of mind to take the time to stow mags with a round or two left in them back in your belt mag pouch in the middle of a gunfight? Sorry, it ain't very likely to happen. Guys, it's a GAME.

Because I shoot both, I sometimes get grief from both sides of the issue by hardcores on either side. But I will say this, I get less crap from the USPSA shooters than the IDPA diehards. The guys I listen to on either side at the games are those who have "been there, done that" with lead flying both directions. It is interesting that almost that the almost universally held opinion is that USPSA/IDPA are games. Oops, there's the g word again.
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 5:56:02 AM EDT
It is unfortunate that Simmunitions is unavailable to the public. Something similar to IDPA, but with shooter on shooter action would be great training.
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 7:41:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By triburst1:
It is unfortunate that Simmunitions is unavailable to the public. Something similar to IDPA, but with shooter on shooter action would be great training.



+1
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 2:24:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By triburst1:
I look at IDPA as preperation for realistic situations, but understand that not everyone views it in the same way. I am probably in the minority in that the only reason I shoot is to train to fight.


Let me play devil's advocate here. I contend that IPSC would make you more prepared for a "real world" encounter. In IDPA, you have an SO holding your hand the entire way. You are told exactly how to shoot the stage, and are peanalized for being creative. IPSC gives you a problem, and you figure out how best to solve it. You are forced to think. There is nobody to tell you how to shoot the stage, or which target to engage first.

In the real world, you don't have anyone telling you what to do. You have to think and react.
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 6:38:26 AM EDT
Not everybody who owns a gun and shoots matches gives a damn about learning to "fight."

Some folks do it because they simply enjoy it.
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 7:02:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GarrettJ:

Originally Posted By triburst1:
I look at IDPA as preperation for realistic situations, but understand that not everyone views it in the same way. I am probably in the minority in that the only reason I shoot is to train to fight.


Let me play devil's advocate here. I contend that IPSC would make you more prepared for a "real world" encounter. In IDPA, you have an SO holding your hand the entire way. You are told exactly how to shoot the stage, and are peanalized for being creative. IPSC gives you a problem, and you figure out how best to solve it. You are forced to think. There is nobody to tell you how to shoot the stage, or which target to engage first.

In the real world, you don't have anyone telling you what to do. You have to think and react.



I imagine it depends on the IDPA match. Yeah, there are stages where you are told what to do, but most have some leeway. You are just held to standards of what poses the most immediate threat (the closest targets, and the ones you see first), and the requirement to maintain cover. If either of them could be considered "training" it's probably IDPA. IPSC allows you to stand in the open and shoot hap-hazardly. No thought about life saving strategy, just run your race the fastest. But, hey you can fill your magazine!

Honestly, I think they both have their merits. In terms of "real world training" neither is going to give you "real world experience." It's certainly better than standing at a static range and firing on command. It's better than most LE qualifications. And it's better than buying a gun shooting part of a box of ammo, loading it again and throwing it in a drawer, never to bee touched again. They both teach weapons handling. Let's face it though, unless someone is really shooting at you, it isn't "real world experience." So practical competition is close enough for me.
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 7:09:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ken_mays:
Not everybody who owns a gun and shoots matches gives a damn about learning to "fight."

Some folks do it because they simply enjoy it.





+1
Link Posted: 2/19/2006 3:47:56 AM EDT
I'm not that competative. I go to have fun and practice my high speed shooting. It's not training, but helps with draw, DA trigger pull (if there), etc.

I'm not a believer in tricked out race guns and prefer stock/nearly stock combat/defensive pistols.
Link Posted: 2/19/2006 11:23:08 AM EDT
Here's another way to look at "gaming". By shooting IDPA and USPSA, I discovered a number of weaknesses in my carry gear. It made me slow. I couldn't possibly win by using it. If I can't be competitive in a match with my carry gear, then why the hell am I carrying it?

Why would I want to carry gear that is intended to save my life if I can't get it into action faster than a bad guy?

It made me look honestly at my carry gear. At work, I must never be spotted carrying but any time I'm in a mall, restaurant, walking the dog or driving my truck, it really doesn't matter. Because it doesn't matter, why not carry the fastest gear I can without being stupid about it? I now carry OWB almost all the time. My "cover" garment is often thicker and heavier than it used to be. I will frequently carry kydex. I will actually wear a 5.11 vest in public. It just doesn't matter in real life.

Yup... Im a gamer. I want to win, which is why when I get to a match, the first thing I have to do is to unload my carry gun. I want to win the match, but I also want to win any confrontation.
Link Posted: 2/19/2006 11:28:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By STG77:

Originally Posted By ken_mays:
Not everybody who owns a gun and shoots matches gives a damn about learning to "fight."

Some folks do it because they simply enjoy it.





+1



+2
Link Posted: 2/19/2006 5:48:42 PM EDT
Lots of good posts with lots of good thoughts. My theory is the more you shoot, the more you play, the more you train, or get trained, the more you discover what fits "you". In the end, that is what's important.
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