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12/6/2019 7:27:02 PM
Posted: 9/10/2007 8:11:41 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/20/2007 9:45:38 PM EST by ALPHAGHOST]
so, a funny thing happened over the last couple days w/ my kimber custom TLE II while plinking away w/ some .45acp reloads

of about 50 rnds or so, i had more than a half a dozen failure to fires--turns out, it was light primer strikes, but they would go off on the 2nd hammer drop

since they were reloads, i figured, it might be hard primers (but then i remembered that federal pistol primers are relatively soft in comparison to others, like CCIs); also, i considered that it may be gunk and thick gun oil mixed into my firing pin area since i did heavily oil down my kimber after i got into a sever thunderstorm the previous day; i didnt think it was a weak mainspring/hammer spring since its new, ed brown stuff

so, i took it home, disassembled my slide, removed my firing pin, springs, and stop; cleaning it out w/ Q-tips and CLP

today, i went back to the range, put another 25+rnds through it; had 2 failure to fires

anyways, i go back home, and completely disassembled and re-thought how everything was working together in my kimber

i then tried the firing pin test and compared it to my other 1911s--i simply used a regular Bic ballpoint pen, dropped it into the empty 1911 bbl, turned it upwards so the pen pointed towards my ceiling, and dropped the hammer on it to see how far up the pen would launch up

my PT1911 and SW1911 BOTH launched the pen high enough to hit my ceiling (~5ft hight)
h/w, my kimber would launch it upwards and the pen would reach irregular and random heights, varying from 1-3 ft and kinda just spin out, real anemic-like...one could tell that the FP wasnt smacking the end of the pen hard enough

i switched my FPs/springs and hammer springs/mainspirng housings out to compare and eliminate the variables; the kimber's FP wasnt broken or worn; springs were great

so i look to the internals of my kimber and i found it; as i was depressing my grip safety, it didnt seem to bump the frame schwartz's lever high enough out of the frame, therefore, i began to suspect that it wasnt completely disabling the slide portion of the firing pin safety block, and perhaps casuing drag in the firing pin area

then, i decided to "disable" my schwartz safety the easiest way i know how: switch out the series 80- FP w/ a old-school series 70 FP w/ no grooves

w/ the series 70 pin (taken from an old Colt Commander slide i had on hand), my pen launching test passed (pen now smacks my ceiling pretty hard)....

so i guess, my quesitons are:

to those that have switched out the series 80 pins in kimbers w/ a series 70, is it reliable and safe for regular use?

i got an idea on how to remove the slide portion of the schwartz safety, but i'm pretty sure i have to remove my rear Meps night sight, correct?
if so, then, can i use a punch and hammer to drive my sight out of the dovetail, or are kimber's notches special

lastly, i noticed that when i push the series 70 pin forward from the rear w/ a small screwdriver, the pin's head only protrudes about enough to properly hit the primers...but on the series 80 pins, almost half the length of the pin goes forwards...again, thats not a problem, right?

and, so, i've never heard or seen this ever occuring, but if i drop my kimber really hard on the ground w/ the series 70 FP, will my kimber accidentally discharge>?

overall, i guess i have lost my faith completely in those FP safeties, including the schwartz; i never liked em to start w/, and there are many who continue to say that they are good to go, but this failure just showed me that the schwartz safety is just another system that CAN fail and render your firearm un-reliable and perhaps useless

as of now, i'm not sure if its my grip safety that maybe messed up (say, not properly engaging the frame schwartz lever), or if its the lever, or slide portion thats messed up...but, if i can just disable the entire system, that works for me

thanks all

ETA: pics below
Link Posted: 9/17/2007 8:03:59 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/17/2007 8:04:54 AM EST by ALPHAGHOST]
UPDATE: the series 70 firing pin worked great--centered, definite, and proper primer hits on almost 100rnds of ammo

my advice to those w/ the schwartz safety, make sure it works properly and if not, repair or disable it

Link Posted: 9/17/2007 10:53:38 AM EST
This why, the Schwartz will not be with me.
Link Posted: 9/17/2007 12:46:54 PM EST
Swartz!......mine works fine.
Bill
Link Posted: 9/17/2007 1:41:34 PM EST

Originally Posted By Gregory_K:
This why, the Schwartz will not be with me.


+1. Kimbers are nice looking guns and I've been tempted on more than one occasion to buy one. However, that schwartz safety keeps me away from them and I end up giving my 1911 money to a company like springfield armory instead.
Link Posted: 9/17/2007 1:55:21 PM EST
My ??? would be how many lives are saved do to a Schwartz style saftey vs how many lives are lost do to one? I really have no idea but I would lean towards the Lives saved if I was a betting man.
Link Posted: 9/17/2007 2:18:39 PM EST

Originally Posted By terry1:
My ??? would be how many lives are saved do to a Schwartz style saftey vs how many lives are lost do to one? I really have no idea but I would lean towards the Lives saved if I was a betting man.


The only way a schwartz can actually cause a "save" is if there is a catastrophic failure of the gun and the hammer drops when it is not supposed to (hammer drops by itself while NOT in someones hand)

How often do you think that happens
Link Posted: 9/17/2007 2:21:07 PM EST
Schwartz safeties schwucks.
Link Posted: 9/17/2007 2:49:10 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/17/2007 2:53:35 PM EST by terry1]
It must happen or the saftey would have never been designed in the first place? I guess if it only happened once and you were in the path of the bullet it might matter then. I don't know anybody who likes any extra saftey added to any firearm be a rifle or pistol other than a lawyer. Sometimes they do break it is another moveing part which is man made so no way around that. Do they break anymore than any other part on a firearm is prone to break? I would love to see some soild figures about this not just heresay around the net myself. With Kimbers I assume there is more than likey thousands sold every year compared to say my nighthawk custom talon which would have lower sells overall. Say if 1% of both pistol brands sold had some sort of problem then we would see 10 broken Kimbers compared to every 1 nighthawk custom all things being equall here on this forum. I am sure ALPHAGHOST had a probelm he is a long standing Member
of this forum and I have read many of his past post he knows his stuff. Like I said above I would like to see some soild numbers about on this safety issue and really know just how prone it would be to failure.
Link Posted: 9/17/2007 2:59:38 PM EST
Just because the safety is there doesn't mean catastrophic failure was a problem. The real problem is our litigious society. I can't really blame Kimber, they just want to avoid being sued.

Hey, I have a Kimber series 2 that still has the Schwartz parts in it. It has never failed me over about 3K rounds so have 100% trust in it. I have heard more than a few problems of others not working properly though.

I would bet you a brand new Kimber Custom II that there is a higher percentage of improperly working Schwartz safeties than instances where a Schwartz safety would have prevented an unwanted discharge.

There is only one reason that safety is there, and it has nothing to do with a "real" safety problem.
Link Posted: 9/17/2007 3:13:22 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/17/2007 3:20:11 PM EST by terry1]
I can see your point I really feel the same way myself it's a lawyer issue. I can see where the saftey could cause a problem heck it's man made we aren't perfect by any means. I also know there had to be some sort of chance of discharge even a 1 out of billion or the saftey wouldn't be put into product why bother it would be of no point for kimber to do it. I just sometimes like to look at both sides and also like to have a real idea of the likey hood of it happening Vs every pistol will a saftey is going to get you killed attitude. I personally have not talked to anyone here that has this saftey problem and I am a gun nut live in the gunstore in my off time. Kimbers are real big sellers here mostlikey more of them sold than about anything 1911 wise. I have seen a few case's reported on net forums and all report the same things so believe them to have had a problem.
Link Posted: 9/17/2007 3:19:42 PM EST
"May da schwatrz be with ya"




All my Kimbers are SERIES ONE.

Link Posted: 9/17/2007 4:47:26 PM EST
I've removed all Schwartz parts from my Custom II. So far it has run like a top. Removed the rear sight with a brass punch and pulled the FP block out the top. Then I took out the lifter arm from the frame.
Link Posted: 9/17/2007 5:46:36 PM EST
I dont buy 1911s with firing pin safeties, Series 80 OR Schwartz type.
Link Posted: 9/17/2007 8:49:36 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/17/2007 8:50:56 PM EST by ALPHAGHOST]
ok, 1st off, i'll try to get some manditory pics of everything ASAP...just to show how the schwartz safety bar didnt seem to be bumping up fully, etc
(still not sure how thats happening still though...my guess is either my grip safety, when depressed, is enough to allow the hammer to fall, but not to disengage the schrwartz safety bar...)

as to the schwartz safety, then only thing i've heard about it was that it was designed back in the 40s (pre-WWII? i think) for the colts; kimber, in the 00 phase switched over to the series II w/ the schwartz safties--something about about the added firing pin safety without affecting the trigger pull customization and increased safety features

i'll still continue to keep and buy kimber--they really are great 1911s; h/w, again, i'll just say that anyone w/ the schwartz, check it and make sure its functioning properly, or get rid of it all together

nowadays, there are just so many firearms w/ all kinds of internal safeties and locks and whatnot--why, i've heard everything from new federal stautues to lawyer-proofing the guns and protecting the companies...

mr terry1: as to figures on how many lives have been saved w/ the safety vs without...well, i dont know if there any out there or even if anyone/any company has ever paid any attention to it

imo, i can kinda see it both ways; h/w, i do think that the original 1911 design w/out the FPS was the way to go

i'm seriously contimplating on removing the slide mounted safety parts sometime when i have time...i'll decide that later
Link Posted: 9/18/2007 4:51:38 AM EST
I'm not against removing it. And I'm not saying it should be there, but there are all kinds of pistol in wide use that use some kind of system like this. Is that not true? An M9 has a firing pin block and I've never heard about those kinds of failures with it. All you hear about is cracked locking blocks and it being too wide for a 9mm. I'm guessing it's not the only pistol that has it either. Don't the S&W pistols have them too? And alot of police officers use them. Maybe it's that any other design is a bit different but, in my opinion, the odds are in favor of not having a problem with one. But AlphaGhost just sort of made me skeptical about it now.
Link Posted: 9/18/2007 5:26:50 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/18/2007 5:34:36 AM EST by BTripp]
I don't think that police officers use them by choice more like mandate. If they're even allowed to carry a 1911, which some dept's just issue them whatever firearm.

I personally don't care for the FPS and don't plan on buying a 1911 with one.

ETA: Simply because the cons outweigh the pros, it already has 2 safeties, some states require a FPS block simply because, those same states also ban certain types of firearms simply because.
Link Posted: 9/18/2007 5:50:50 AM EST
More mechanical parts mean more chances for failures. I had a series 80 gun get extremely dirty a few years back, which essentially stopped the ignition system from functioning.

These safeties were invented by lawyers. Why subject yourself to unnecessary BS when it isn't even needed in the first place?

I also avoid 1911s with added firing pin "safeties."

The only Kimber I own is an old Series 1. It is a good pistol (with Wilson mags and a replaced extractor).
Link Posted: 9/18/2007 7:30:46 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/18/2007 7:31:41 AM EST by SGB]
Link Posted: 9/18/2007 10:04:22 AM EST

Originally Posted By SGB:
ar15.com/content/page.html?id=277 Originally Posted By pistolwretch

This is the plunger lever at full rise. Measures about .062" of lift.
Some consider .080" adequate. I prefer .100".
www.the-gunsmith.com/sarge/5-18-06sized/504s.jpg



This is the result of inadequate plunger lever rise.
www.the-gunsmith.com/sarge/5-18-06sized/500s.jpg


If the firing pin was the original, well heat-treated steel one instead of much softer Titanium, this gun may well have been a club.


Yeah, but that one is a colt.
Link Posted: 9/18/2007 10:13:42 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/18/2007 10:15:57 AM EST by SGB]
Link Posted: 9/18/2007 3:26:42 PM EST

Originally Posted By SGB:

Originally Posted By JJREA:

Yeah, but that one is a colt.



Your point?

The Colt is actuated by the trigger and the Kimber by the grip safety. Failure of either system to properly lift the firing pin plunger will result in malfunction.


I was just teasing. Sorry.
Link Posted: 9/18/2007 3:31:50 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/18/2007 4:16:51 PM EST
Obviously it was the FP block, as your series 70 FP solved the problem.

But, I'd think that if the block was dragging on the FP, you'd see some wear on the pin itself.

As per the OP, the Kimber FP was pristine, with no scratches, markings, etc.


the kimber's FP wasnt broken or worn


Link Posted: 9/20/2007 9:49:49 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/20/2007 9:52:29 PM EST by ALPHAGHOST]


(firing pin, no excessive/innapropriate wear noticed...)




(pic w/ full gripping around safety...i think the lower schwartz bar seems a tad short)

forgot to take pics of the gun complete and w/out the schwartz safety

schwartz safety was removed FWIW, series 70 FP kept anyways; i knocked out the rear sight w/ a punch and hammer, removed the spring and block, pretty simple overall

put in another 100rnds, no problems at all
Link Posted: 9/20/2007 9:51:04 PM EST

Originally Posted By SGB:
ar15.com/content/page.html?id=277 Originally Posted By pistolwretch

This is the plunger lever at full rise. Measures about .062" of lift.
Some consider .080" adequate. I prefer .100".
www.the-gunsmith.com/sarge/5-18-06sized/504s.jpg



This is the result of inadequate plunger lever rise.
www.the-gunsmith.com/sarge/5-18-06sized/500s.jpg


If the firing pin was the original, well heat-treated steel one instead of much softer Titanium, this gun may well have been a club.


thanks for the comparison mr sgb...its been a while since i've seen it; great info
Link Posted: 9/20/2007 11:02:17 PM EST
I did the 'full job' when disabling the FPB:

-Take out the plunger (which was no biggie, since I was getting new sights anyways, and knocking out the old one was mad a bit easier, because I didn't care about them. ),

-Grind down the plunger so it was just a hair under level with the frame. (Brownells sells a spacer for Colt Series 80, so you can just remove the plunger and replace it, but I have no idea if it would work with a Kimber. You need it in there for spacing of the internal bits.

-New firing pin. (Which was superfluous once the other steps are done, but why not?)


The trickiest part was getting the rear sight off, and I would not want to try to get it back on myself.
Link Posted: 9/20/2007 11:12:02 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/21/2007 3:01:59 AM EST

Originally Posted By Tomislav:
I did the 'full job' when disabling the FPB:

-Take out the plunger (which was no biggie, since I was getting new sights anyways, and knocking out the old one was mad a bit easier, because I didn't care about them. ),

-Grind down the plunger so it was just a hair under level with the frame. (Brownells sells a spacer for Colt Series 80, so you can just remove the plunger and replace it, but I have no idea if it would work with a Kimber. You need it in there for spacing of the internal bits.

-New firing pin. (Which was superfluous once the other steps are done, but why not?)


The trickiest part was getting the rear sight off, and I would not want to try to get it back on myself.


Is that for sure? I removed the arm and it has functioned fine.
Link Posted: 9/21/2007 4:56:49 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/21/2007 5:08:51 AM EST by Tomislav]

Originally Posted By GerberSchwintz:
Is that for sure? I removed the arm and it has functioned fine.


For sure? No. What I read? Yes.


ETA: I no longer have that Kimber, so I can't check, but isn't there a little extra material taken out of the frame on the right hand side (as viewed from the rear) for the FPB plunger? I believe that was the concern (maybe theoretical), that having that additional gap between the sear bits and the frame could be problematic?



Link Posted: 9/21/2007 5:18:20 AM EST
I think I may just get a Series 70's firing pin on hand in case mine ever acts up. What's a good brand to buy?
Link Posted: 9/21/2007 8:59:18 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/21/2007 9:20:34 AM EST

Originally Posted By SGB:

Originally Posted By JJREA:
I think I may just get a Series 70's firing pin on hand in case mine ever acts up. What's a good brand to buy?


The original firing pin profile is getting hard to find.


Gun Parts Corp has them, as well as Brownells.
Link Posted: 9/21/2007 9:21:42 AM EST

Originally Posted By SGB:

Originally Posted By ALPHAGHOST:
i2.photobucket.com/albums/y49/bigguncoop/Picture017.jpg
i2.photobucket.com/albums/y49/bigguncoop/Picture025.jpg
(firing pin, no excessive/innapropriate wear noticed...)

i2.photobucket.com/albums/y49/bigguncoop/Picture022.jpg

i2.photobucket.com/albums/y49/bigguncoop/Picture023.jpg
(pic w/ full gripping around safety...i think the lower schwartz bar seems a tad short)

forgot to take pics of the gun complete and w/out the schwartz safety

schwartz safety was removed FWIW, series 70 FP kept anyways; i knocked out the rear sight w/ a punch and hammer, removed the spring and block, pretty simple overall

put in another 100rnds, no problems at all




No inappropriate wear?? Like SGB pointed out, that firing pin is beating the shit out of the plunger.
Link Posted: 9/21/2007 1:24:51 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/21/2007 1:25:39 PM EST by ALPHAGHOST]

Originally Posted By SGB:

Originally Posted By ALPHAGHOST:
i2.photobucket.com/albums/y49/bigguncoop/Picture017.jpg
i2.photobucket.com/albums/y49/bigguncoop/Picture025.jpg
(firing pin, no excessive/innapropriate wear noticed...)

i2.photobucket.com/albums/y49/bigguncoop/Picture022.jpg

i2.photobucket.com/albums/y49/bigguncoop/Picture023.jpg
(pic w/ full gripping around safety...i think the lower schwartz bar seems a tad short)

forgot to take pics of the gun complete and w/out the schwartz safety

schwartz safety was removed FWIW, series 70 FP kept anyways; i knocked out the rear sight w/ a punch and hammer, removed the spring and block, pretty simple overall

put in another 100rnds, no problems at all



img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-4/989537/Picture025.jpg


you are correct mr sgb...i compared it to another one of my FPs: the pin origionally in my kimber did have some inccorect wearing on the lower base portion, i just didnt notice the diff until i had the 2 to compare with after yall pointed that out from the pics, and the wear appeared to be uniform around the base end

at least its out of my kimber now, and hopefully the new series 70 pin i installed works in the long run

i'm still trying to figure out though, whether it was my grip safety, the frame schwartz bar, or the plunger, etc messed up on me; i'm now wondering if i should get all the parts replaced for the long run, or just run it as it is (w/ schwartz gone and series 70 FP)...thoughts?

Link Posted: 9/21/2007 1:38:30 PM EST
I recall a noted 1911 pistolsmith commenting that if you wanted to disable the Kimber firing pin safeties you'd need to file down the parts and reinstall them.

Is it necessary? I'm not sure as I don't have those parts in my pistols, but why would he mention it??

I think it's probably best to leave the retrofitted parts in the pistol.
Link Posted: 9/21/2007 1:53:02 PM EST
I traded my Custom II in on a Classic, had it maybe 3 mos before the trade, it never failed me, i just wanted the Classic more.
Link Posted: 9/23/2007 8:03:34 AM EST

Originally Posted By Tomislav:

Originally Posted By GerberSchwintz:
Is that for sure? I removed the arm and it has functioned fine.


For sure? No. What I read? Yes.


ETA: I no longer have that Kimber, so I can't check, but isn't there a little extra material taken out of the frame on the right hand side (as viewed from the rear) for the FPB plunger? I believe that was the concern (maybe theoretical), that having that additional gap between the sear bits and the frame could be problematic?





I took your advice and put it back in just to be safe. Thanks.
Link Posted: 9/23/2007 12:30:11 PM EST
I have 1500 rounds through my Kimber with a series 70 firing pin in it, after I experienced the same failures you did after a gunsmith did a trigger job.

It has run 100% with that firing pin in it, and I trust it enough for it to be my bedside firearm.

Hell, replacing the firing pin is the first thing I'd do with any series II kimber now.
Link Posted: 9/23/2007 1:28:15 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/23/2007 1:29:41 PM EST by Tomislav]

Originally Posted By Marksman14:
...Hell, replacing the firing pin is the first thing I'd do with any series II kimber now.



In the future, I think I'll just stay away from 1911s with a FPB setup on them. I will never trust them, and when most of the big manufacturers have FPB-free models, why bother? (Unless the price is just so darned good, of course!)

As I say that, I'm looking at S&W 1911s, which have not only the FPB, but the external extractor. Ah well. Variety is the spice of life.
Link Posted: 9/23/2007 2:27:40 PM EST

Originally Posted By Tomislav:

Originally Posted By Marksman14:
...Hell, replacing the firing pin is the first thing I'd do with any series II kimber now.



In the future, I think I'll just stay away from 1911s with a FPB setup on them. I will never trust them, and when most of the big manufacturers have FPB-free models, why bother? (Unless the price is just so darned good, of course!)

As I say that, I'm looking at S&W 1911s, which have not only the FPB, but the external extractor. Ah well. Variety is the spice of life.


I think my customII was a very good value for the money. I personally think I got more pistol for my money than any other 1911 out there. I could be full of it but springfields choice is either the milspec, or next step up is a loaded. And I don't think I could get a loaded for what I got a CustomII for. But, maybe I would've been better off with a loaded w/o the schwarz stuff, but mine has ran really well so far.

Marksman14, where did you get your firing pin?
Link Posted: 9/28/2007 1:46:56 PM EST

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:
I recall a noted 1911 pistolsmith commenting that if you wanted to disable the Kimber firing pin safeties you'd need to file down the parts and reinstall them.

Is it necessary? I'm not sure as I don't have those parts in my pistols, but why would he mention it??

I think it's probably best to leave the retrofitted parts in the pistol.


the part that i've heard that you should file down is the frame mounted schwartz safety bar (the one that pokes up and disengages the frame safety portion)

Link Posted: 9/28/2007 2:16:08 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/28/2007 3:37:33 PM EST by SGB]
It's Swartz, not Schwartz!!!It's..............................................................................
..........................................{SNIP THE SPAM}.............................................
..............................................................................It's Swartz, not Schwartz!!!It's Swartz

I'm just saying
Link Posted: 9/30/2007 12:18:02 AM EST

Originally Posted By pulpsmack:
It's Swartz, not Schwartz!!!It's..............................................................................
..........................................{SNIP THE SPAM}.............................................
..............................................................................It's Swartz, not Schwartz!!!It's Swartz

I'm just saying


oops

sorry, but word's spell check isnt doing too well for me
Link Posted: 1/22/2008 7:49:05 PM EST
Can you use a Series 70 firing pin stop after the removal of the parts?

I swapped one from a my old Colt into my Kimber for a look and I don't see anything that could scrap or cause a problem.

My Kimber firing pin stop is so loose I am going to buy a replacement ASAP.
Link Posted: 1/22/2008 9:03:42 PM EST

Originally Posted By Robert2011:
Can you use a Series 70 firing pin stop after the removal of the parts?

I swapped one from a my old Colt into my Kimber for a look and I don't see anything that could scrap or cause a problem.

My Kimber firing pin stop is so loose I am going to buy a replacement ASAP.


you can just use a series 70 FP to bypass the swartz, but either way, i'd remove the other internal parts to the swartz, just to ensure that the extra parts no longer being used dont break or dislodge or something and then jam something else up...

this topic might help also:www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=5&f=31&t=51056
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