Posted: 9/14/2006 3:28:24 PM EDT
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I just picked up a Smith and Wesson Model 37 Airweight .38 to carry in a ankle rig. I am wondering what the best all the way around round would be for defensive carry. My brother uses Golden Sabre. Since it is an airweight I'd like to avoid +P. Also while I'm at it. What ankle holster do you guys suggest? I have heard Ken Null thrown around a lot and am leaning towards one of those. |
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Golden Sabre 135grn......An ankle holster???If its a back up piece...OK If your a civie....Ditch the ankle holster idea and get a good INWB holster or a inside the pocket..... Shoot the most bullet that you can handle at a realistic distance. Also...I am A proponent of magsafes and glasers But you can't go wrong with G-sabers |
| I am a civilian but with the work that I do I am required to wear dress clothes often. This means tucked in shirt, light wool trousers and such. I just feel that an ankle rig would work best for me. I understand your points on ditching the ankle rig but I think its the best option for concealability in my case. |
Yup. They are dreadfully slow to deploy the gun from. Pocket carry is ideal, but you'll have a problem with the hammer spur snagging. There are two ways to deal with this; one, train yourself to place your thumb over the spur while drawing. This is not the best idea, but doable. The better method is to simply whack the hammer spur off. You'll hear some opinions on how this is a terrible idea, you'll have misfires, lawyers will be lined up with knife and fork in hand to eat you, etc., etc., ad nauseum. Nonsense. I have removed the hammer spur on many S&W revolvers. Three of my four J-frames, two of which I carry daily and shoot regularly, are "bobbed". The fourth is a BodyGuard model that has a shrouded hammer. Another doom'n'gloom reason for not whacking the spur is that you'll no longer be able to cock the piece single action. Actually you can (carefully!), but so what? This isn't a target gun. You should be using trigger-cocking for defensive work. I would shoot VERY FEW +Ps in it, especially if it is an older gun with a "J" prefix serial number. |
Sounds like pocket carry would be perfect for this situation. Why go with under powered 38 when +P loads are proven like the LSWCHP +p and Speer Short Barrel GD +P? |
A lot of locals I know use thisKramer pocket holster. I just stuff it my pocket.
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| Pocket holsters are very inexpensive. Uncle Mikes makes one for under $10, Desantis makes one for about $15 and Mika makes one for $15. All are pretty decent holsters which are sweat resistant and made of synthetic material. My preference goes to the Mika holster since it is hand made and American made by a retired cop. He also gets it to your house in about 4-5 days. |
Bob Mika makes an excellent and inexpensive pocket holster. It stays put and won't allow persipration to seep through like the common roughside-out leather jobs do. That may or may not apply to smoothside-out leather- I don't know because I've never felt a need to try one after a Mika. |
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My wife and I both carry an airweight (642 and 638). First off, ankle holster is the last way I would carry it. Second shoot + Ps. If you cannot handle +P then your technique is flawed. Not to mention in a real situation you will not notice recoil. Practice with AE 130 FMJ and carry Speer Gold Dot 125 or 135gr +P. These rounds have shown to expand and penetrate well gel tests. I would carry IWB, I do in all types of attire and in business clothes you cant see shit. I use a cheapy Uncle Mikes IWB holster and it is really nice for the job because it is soft, thin and lightweight. |
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While I agree with the guys who say carry via some other method than ankle holster, I also realize that is just not in the cards sometimes. For those times, I really like the DeSantis Apache ankle holster. Cut the thumbsnaps off of it and it will still hold your revolver just fine. Plenty of padding, very secure and as fast as an ankle rig can be. I use both the old 158gr. LSWHP +P and the new Gold Dot 135gr. +P. The GD has proven to be a very good load in all the tests and the older load has withstood the test of time. Last, carry at least a full reload. I prefer the Bianchi Speed Strips, but 5 or 6 in the watch pocket of jeans works also. |
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I have a model 36 - IWB or pocket usually. 158gr HPs. Been considering one of these www.wallerandson.com/hammershrouds.htm 
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Lots of good advice here. Me, I carry a 431PD in my weak side front pocket. I carry the gun in a Mika's round bottom pocket holster. It works PERFECTLY, and for under 15 bucks, you cannot beat it. I, too, bobbed the hammer on my J-frame. No issues whatsoever. My biggest advice is to practice, a lot, from whatever carry position you chooe. I would strongly advise to avoid ankle carry, but I assume you are a big boy, and can make your own decisions. Whatever you choose, practice, practice, practice. |
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I have been doing some research on pocket holsters and I have a follow-up question. Exactly how inconspicuous are these holsters? I mean it seems to me that there would be a large noticeable buldge there? I am not really a big guy. I am about 5 "8", 145, 32 waist. In theory this .38 snubbie is a back-up gun. I try to carry it as a back-up to my Sig 9mm which I carry in a Milt Sparks VW-II holster. In practice however I usually just grab the snubbie and off I go. |
If you wear tight jeans it will be very noticeable, but baggy jeans or something like 5.11s or even Dockers will work fine for most guys. Many dress slacks are too thin for my liking, but I suppose not all of them are. In truth. most people are not staring at you and checking out your "package"! 
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There it is. I wear 5.11s or the Columbia equivalent to Dockers every day; with a J-frame in an Uncle Mike's pocket holster in the right front pocket. Another J-frame is in a Ken Null ankle holster. You were told correctly; the Null is hands-down the best ankle holster, period. I have a very nice (and very expensive) Kramer leather pocket holster. I find that the UM nylon el cheapo is less bulky and more comfortable. It does have one drawback; it can shift around, depending upon the size of the pocket. The looser the pants fit, the more likely it is to shift. I've been meaning to try a Mika for a couple of years now, but just never can remember to do it. He's retired LAPD, and known by another retired LAPD street warrior who is a good friend of mine. My friend tells me that Bob Mika was no office pogue, if you get my drift... so he has an idea of what works and what doesn't. I do have one of his little pocket mirrors, and used it extensively when on SWAT. Anyway... pocket carry for a back-up piece is just fine. When I have to go to New Orleans, serve a warrant, assist the youngsters with a "raid", or otherwise engage in real police work (as opposed to the background checks I normally do these days; fitting work for an old burn-out ), I'll strap on a belt holster and mag pouches for the big gun, and just leave the 360PD in my pocket. It isn't in the way, and nothing is faster in terms of presenting one's weapon from concealment. You can walk around with your hand on the grip, and nobody has a clue...
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I use an ankle holster every now and then when dress dictates the need. If you get a good fitting and comfortable ankle holster you will be fine. I have been using a Renegade for the past seven years and I don't leave my gun at home like some say. I would prefer to carry my 4" 1911 or 4" XD357sig, but if I can't, the ankle holster gets strapped on. I never leave home unarmed. The Renegade is comfortable enough for all day carry. JMHO, MadDog 
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I think I'll just follow the standard AR15.com advice and get both ankle and pocket holster. This way I can vary my carry method depending on what I am wearing at the moment. Now as for ammo, ideally I could carry my Sig .45 with 230 gr. Winchester Golden Sabres or Sig 9mm with 147 gr. SXT but many times this is not an ideal situation. What is the recoil like on the Gold Dot 135 gr. +P compared to lets just say standard pressure 158 gr. lead hollow points? I have always prefered to carry the heaviest rounds possible in all of my sidearms but esp. in a snubbie. Reason being is that it is momentum that provides penetration and heavier rounds possess more momentum. True lighter rounds get higher velocities but that velocity desipates much quicker on impact because there is still less momentum. Therefore I feel that heavier rounds provide more reliable penetration. I believe that penetration into vital organs is the key to incapacitation due mainly to internal hemmorage (aside from a hit to the CNS). Now of course if you have a round that offers both expansion and ideal penetration then you have a winner. Obviously if the perp is wearing a T-Shirt it isn't going to make much if any difference. What concerns me is multiple layers of clothing in colder conditions. Of course shot placement is still the all the way around best predicter of incapacitation. Ok now I guess I better duck! Liable to be a lot of flak. |
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I had to sprint once with my Model 60 in an ankle holster. I went shopping for a pocket holster the next day. +1 on the lead hollowpoint, I don't load mine to +p for my modl 60. Federal used to make the best non +P round, Nyclad.. unfortunately they scrapped the equipment to do it and no longer make it.. Here's my Mdl60 and some of the old Nyclads.. 
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If you want to know the real capability of snub loads look at this (gelatin tests, etc) READ |
The lead semi-wadcutter rounds in the speed loader are 162 grain lead bullets cast from lyman 357466 (no longer made). The black tip bullets are 125gr (I think) Nyclads. I don't have any of the soft lead hollowpoints in this picture. |
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I just bought what I though was an old stock model 37-it's NIB with a factory bobbed hammer, and no lawyer lock, and the firing pin on the hammer. The barrell also does not say it's +p rated. My agency requires that we qualify with wadcutters but carry 158 LSWHP +p Remingtons. During the qual, there is a timed shoot, and the flat nosed wadcutters don't cut it in a speed loader so I shot some of the LSWCHP +p's. Anyway, the armorers got to talking about this gun, and their advice was to never shoot +p's in it. I just got off the phone with S&W, and gave them the serial number; the gun is not old stock after all, it left the factory in December of 2005. The guy on the phone said it's a run for a Japanese contract, hence the firing pin on the hammer, and the absence of the lawyer lock. I was told by the S&W rep that any Airweight made after 1998 can handle +p's, the guy just said that obviously a steady diet would accelerate wear on the gun. It was an interesting conversation, I know S&W had their political problems in the past, but for my revolver money there's still not a better gun made IMHO. |
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"I'm thinking it imparts less energy to your hand to move a lighter bullet, but what do I know?" I suspect that you are correct. There in lies the issue though. If the bullet imparts less energy to move your hand then it also imparts less energy on inpact. It is Newton's third law of motion. Everyone has their own ideas and I am sure other's will disagree but I am leaning more and more towards 158 gr. lead hollowpoints. |
| Energy has nothing to do with handgun wounding. All that matters is how much tissue is crushed. Penetration comes first--if you can get 12-18 inches of penetration, you are good to go. Expansion is nice, but never if it comes at the price of enough penetration to do the job. |
My G27 with a Pearce +1 mag grip extention rides in a fobus ankle holster with no problem. |
Well said. Now the idea is to find a bullet that will allow both from a snubby, and right now, its 135gr+P GDHP-SB that is the best at that so far. |
Looks nice. |
If this were true we'd still use 158- and 200-grain LRN. But both earned the nickname "Widowmaker" for a reason-bad guys were perforated with little damage done. Regularly. Penetration alone is not the be all, end all answer to stopping evil intent some attempt to make it. |
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Ditto on the speer gold dot 135 gr. It is made for this type of pistol with a short barrel. Do a search for 'better performing self defense loads gary roberts' Ditto on reconsidering the ankle holster. Get a good quality belt, like a Kramer horsehide dress belt that is sized like a dress belt, doesn't scream "gun!" and is made to support a firearm. Or, carry the thing for a while and see. Good luck popping that trouser leg up during a fight. Statistically, 7 - 10 feet, night, two or more bad guys? Ugh. Ditto on Kramer holsters, Consider an IWB and look into Dave Workman's holster or the Mitch Rosen copy. Workman designed a much copied holster designed to be worn tucked under your shirt. www.danddgunleather.com/pages/undershirt.htm http://www.mitchrosen.com/product_line/product_line.html |
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Thanks for the IWB holster advice guys. I'll definately check those out. I am not trying to start a flame but I don't agree with the assertion that energy has nothing to do with it. I am in 100% agreement on penetration and expansion. In fact I said this on the previous page. Where I disagree is on your guys concepts of energy. The definition of energy is simply "the ability to do work". In this case "work" can be translated into everything that the bullet does once it leaves the muzzle. This includes the ability to penetrate and expand. A bullet imparting less energy will not penetrate as deep nor expand as reliably. Now I conceed that bullet design factors in to some degree. In the end it mostly comes down to the laws of motion. A bullet imparting less energy on your hand carries less energy on impact and therefore will not be as apt to penetrate or expand. Heavier bullets carry more momentum (momentum = energy) and therefore penetrate deeper. Lighter bullets may travel at faster velocities but the energy desipates faster on impact. Obviously we are talking in relative terms here but a cannonball traveling at say 600 mph will penetrate deeper than a BB traveling at 3000 mph. Why? The cannonball carries more momentum. As previously stated this is all relative cause if you increase the velocity of the BB enough, says 10,000 mph, then it will out penetrate the cannonball. This is obviously an extreme example but the general concept still applies. |
Just bought a S&W 642 also and love it. I have Speer Golddot +p's in it when i carry. Shot a few and they seemed very accurate and managable. Yaay! my 1st post!! |
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I bought a lot of old ammo off of a friend that was taking care of an older gent(when he passed on his kids just grabed all his old guns)they left all the ammo! She brought me three five gallon buckets full of unopened ammo from green boxed 30-06 to red and green high vel .22 ammo(some of the green boxed 32-20 ammo I gave freely to some one here)that had a gun to shoot it! She wanted to know if I would give 20.00 for it? Some of it is paper shelled 12 guage,but three boxes of it are Western 38 special Super Match 148 gr lead Mid-range(these are wadcutters)lead inside the case OLIN. Bet these would really work good in a 38 with 2 inch barrel! Be kinda like a cast flat nosed bullet,am I wrong in thinking so? Bob 
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Lots of people use this exact load in their snubbies. It penetrates deeply, has light recoil, and isnt loud. Pretty much anyone who is is in t5raining world, and carries a snub, either carries this load, and a few speedstrips or speedloader full of them, or carries their gun loaded with them, and reloads of the 135gr+P GDHP SB. |
Thanks for the article, It made me think the HBWC I use is a pretty good defensive round.  M |