You're not my Supervisor.

Upon closer review, I see that you are indeed my Supervisor.

So this is where we drop new stuff about P320 and shoot off our mouth about their lack of a quality drop safety?  Got it.

See above.  Item 4 has a drop safety.  Get it?  

At least he's not locking the treads like a lame ass fanboi mod. I don't mind them being contained all in one thread. It is just stupid however to lock a technical topic just because the content runs counter to your opinion.

Because safety's can never disengage in a fight or if the gun is dropped.

The drop safety should work regardless of the position of the manual safety.

I may fall on my Glock and poke my eye out. I decided it was too dangerous to carry. 

You have obviously never been around a series 70 style 1911, and probably are a poor bowler. 

But none of the others do

Looks like you have about $800 worth of handguns at their current value

It looks like I'll get my 320c back from Sig just  in time to send it and my 320 right back for the optional changes

Your fanboi is strong.

You have obviously never fired a firearm in a dynamic situation like three gun, self defense or combat. You are also probably bad at golf.

I suck at golf and this whole P320 debacle is becoming totally epic.  The Glock and Sig guys are about ready to wage war it is awesome.  Glad I am into CZ right now but the moment the P10c has an issue all Hell will break loose on ARFCOM the Glock vs Sig vs CZ guys the only thing that could make this more epic is MAC finding out the VP9 and P10c are not drop safe and posting a video that would bring the site down.  The moved threads, bans, time outs, and locks would be something like we have never experienced.  Maybe almost as bad as the 2013 AWB legislation floating around or the 2016 Election and Trump Hilary threads.

That's why I choose Beretta.

Sig doubling down on the stupidity.  If someone is too stupid to check the chamber before field stripping they have no business owning a firearm.  It's only significant for those who are contenders for Darwin awards.


The design of the SIG SAUER P320 overcomes the most significant safety concern in striker-fired pistols today: the practice of pressing the trigger for disassembly.


Sig Sauer’s P320 “upgrade” letter to dealers takes a shot at Glock

Started and closed a thread on exactly that.

The jury is out, and when they come back after Monday, they will vote with their dollars.

If P320's actually start selling for $200, how long with that last? Every one on an auction site will disappear, the remaining owners will step back, and just wait out the retrofit.

Not many gen ones LCP's went for cheap - people aren't going to just toss them in the trash because they have MONEY in them. Too much to just give up.

If anything, shutting down production means at the current time there is a limited supply which might change hands and then as they dry up prices will rise.

How do you reconcile prices going up on a gun which is being reviled by haters as unsafe? DEMAND. More people voting with dollars than cheap posts which cost nothing.

Frankly, I think it's time to go shopping, but I'm not pretending there will be some catastrophic selloff with P320's going cheap. Nope. What I'm looking for is an UNMODIFIED gun for possession now and bona fide collector status in the future - an unmonkeyed P320 bone stock as made by SIG "pre drop safe."

Get yours now, they won't last for long. It will take a much longer time to get your hands on a first gen M17. If you want the entire collection from start to finish, don't wait. The time is now, strike while the iron is hot.

Off to GB -

And back, average price of guns closing in the next 60 mins is $575. We now those outside the last few minutes aren't at full bid price and the ones which meet some bid strategies go into overtime.

So much for $200.

I think it proves once again that the normal buying public is something else entirely compared to forum members and their stilted demands. Seen it on car, knife, watch, and gun forums for a long time - what might have legs as an internet story rarely affects Joe  the Neighbor buying what he wants.

"Umm. P320, gun the Army adopted, drop out trigger unit, might be easy to customize, I want one now." Kaching.

P320's are still selling and all the caution by some isn't stopping the sales. In point of fact, some pro's are starting to look because they haven't yet got one and they know their clients are going to ask questions. They know they are covered by SIG, and they need to know what it was like before and after.

Saw the same thing happen to LCP's and because of it there were some who got converted, too.

Copied here per mods request:

My son owns a SIG P320 Compact 9mm w/the APEX flat trigger.
After reading some of these threads about the P320 going off when dropped, I decided to test it myself on his.

I loaded up a 15rd mag w/14rds of 124gr FMJ topped off w/a snap cap. Chambered a separate snap cap before seating the loaded mag.
As suggested, I held the P320 hanging by the trigger guard w/the rear of the slide a measured 4' off the carpeted floor.

It required 17 careful attempts to get 10 solid hits on the rear of the slide as seen in the various posted videos.
Trigger was checked and reset after every attempt.
End result: At no time did the trigger move enough to drop the striker, it still required a full pull of the trigger to do so.

This could be due to using a Compact, or the APEX flat trigger, both or ???

I do not claim this was scientific testing, but thought I would post the result for those who might be interested.

Tomac

I understand using snap caps as the primary chambered round, no way would I recommend anyone load actual rounds in any gun when drop testing it. Most testers are using primed empty cases.

The real difficulty for the average shooter testing a gun for drop safety is that 1) they have no clue what constitutes an actual scientific test - height, control apparatus, angle, etc. 2) that drop testing is in an of itself a very limited set of angles of impact.

Who determines that? Does it include banging on the back of the slide with a hammer? So it goes, the general public aren't engineers, and from what I have observed aren't skilled in operating dynamic exercises to a high degree. We have people shooting lawn mowers filled with tannerite and losing their leg.

Somebody is going to shoot themselves or a loved one doing this and it's not going to be able to get fixed. The gun? Maybe. A round in the groin? Oh nobody would actually load real live ammo in the magazine, would they?

Read post above. Did. Sure, snap caps and all, but still - next guy will not comprehend and boom.

Funny how since this thread is the only one you can post in that all the hubbub over the P320 has gone mostly silent here. Why is that? Can't get their own slice of fame banging guns around in a separate post and trashing SIG?

What we have is internet hysteria and prima donna gun owners who have let themselves be manipulated by a campaign meant to smear SIG, and as I have repeatedly asked, who benefits from that?

I am certain had this happened to ANY other gun there would be a sticky at the top of forums with news of the recall and most threads would be "how about that." There is more to this than usual, too many videos coming out, and the perpetrators of this are working in concert to time releases and keep the heat on.

It smells like a Trump defamation campaign during the election - with special interests pushing an agenda.

If you drop a gun and it goes off, it's a failure. Pretty simple really.

Thank you.  

I'm still a little sore this person turned my last thread not about 320's into a thread about 320's then got it locked.

I think Maynard be serious about this thread gents.

Have the prices Dropped ? I would like to have one

I'm completely open to discussing the protocols of drop testing when we are all willing to state exactly what they are and how it's assessed.

Numbers quantify technical discussion. Start talking numbers. Foot pounds of force, degrees of angle. How to sum up the results. What is a "safe" gun anyway, because we DID have that before, now it's not good enough.

Here's the NIJ pdf: https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/173943.pdf

Note there are only 6 - six - different drop tests in this NIJ test for LEO pistols in section 5.7. It's resistant to cut and paste with my browser, I'm more than willing to see someone actually talk about it.

What other tests are applicable?

Here is the SAAMI/ANSI test, note the actual naming of it - Abusive, and it's similarity to the NIJ test: http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/Z299-5_ANSI_AbusiveMishandling.pdf

Also note the lack of "wall of text" posting. I also don't fluff up threads with pics.

I only own one SIG, a P938. Not a major fanboy. My go to guns are a Kahr CW380, S&W 4566TSW, AR pistol in 5.56. The latter is the only one never drop tested to any standard as I built it.

My only worry discussing drop testing standards is that it's going to read like a 6.5 Grendel thread - all charts and graphs. That is what we are discussing when numbers start flying.

Dropping a gun from 4 feet onto its back-plate isn't really that abusive, and it's something that could easily happen by accident. That's why it's absurd to have a gun that will fire when dropped in such a manner.

It's abusive if you let go of it and it falls to the ground. That isn't supposed to happen.

Some drop tests pictured in videos show guns being released at 6 feet off the ground, which means they accelerate more, and impact harder. Someone stated guns were being allowed to hit concrete, too. I would think it's a valid concern, but it's not in the test.

What we have are people coming up with ways to "test" the gun that industry professionals never agreed were required. I would equate that with trying to test your cars DOT required 5mph bumpers by hitting stationary objects over 10mph and then splashing that news all over the media.

We have people castigating SIG for a lot of things, but they complied with industry standards and went beyond. Much can be said about other makers who apparently have pistols which pass tests that others create out of whole cloth and which aren't part of the NIJ/SAAMI/ANSI protocol. We don't sensationalize that - but failure gets attention.

If we legitimize testing that was never considered as part of the overall safety program we start to fall into the mindset of blaming the cup of hot coffee for burning our lap when we drop it.

  Sigs go off and others don't.

Sig not Sigs, only the P320 has this issue.

True. That's what I meant.

Industry professionals agree handguns shouldn't fire when dropped from four feet.

And your reference to the cup of coffee thing is stupid. The coffee was hot enough to cause third degree burns, and was well over the temperature it was supposed to be, because they super-heated the coffee.

Your constant defense of Sig in this is kinda suspect. Your verbiage about if we "legitimize testing" sounds similar to Cohen's statements regarding if we "legitimize mishandling."

Why are you so against having drop safe pistols, and why do you go into walls of text on tangents that are often times completely separate from any point you're trying to make?

I found this thread by looking to see if anyone had tested the P320 with the Apex flat triggers yet. Thanks Tomac for your contribution in this regard.

I also found this info from Apex:

I find this to be good news as both my P320s have had the Apex Flat-Faced Action Enhancement Trigger installed.

At this point I have a Compact FDE and full sized RX models. The RX being my main USPSA carry optics division gun. The compact FDE was to be a carry gun but I am still in search of a good carry holster I like for it. So fir now it just sees range and home defense use.

I will most likely send my P320s in to SIG for the upgrade, but I will hold off to see how it goes for others first. I want to see their comments on turn around time and how the trigger feels after the upgrade. If all seems well there, then I will probably send off the Compact FDE one first. If I like the results then I will send in my RX. This is what I have decided and it is a personal choice. I am not trying to guide anyone on how they should treat the voluntary upgrade program. I do feel a little better seeing that Apex hasn't seen the problem in their drop tests with their flat triggers, and Tomac's informal tests have shown the same. I hope the info I posted above is found to be relevant to other P320 owners since most of the P320 threads have devolved into purse swinging hate fests.

Full disclosure, Yes I am a huge SIG fan and have been since the mid 90's, but my typical EDC pistol is a Glock 32.

I am old enough to have owned Series 70 Colts and early Gen 2 Glocks.
The marketplace pressue and the gun companies themselves eventually took care of what problems they had.
The same thing will happen here.

Saying I'm a SIG fanboy and my remarks are stupid doesn't change the fact that most of the suspect testing is not conducted to NIJ/SAMMI/ANSI standards. Dropping guns from more than 4 feet is what is happening, dropping guns from new angles which other guns are not tested, and hammering on guns to induce a discharge isn't an official gun industry test.

It's video commando testing. Just the same as driving your car at a higher rate of speed into barriers despite DOT standard testing then exploiting the results as "UNSAFE!" Why are these tests being taken at face value when the methodology was never accepted in the first place? Who are doing the tests and are they industry professionals with credible knowledge of the science?

I think it's been blown way out of proportion, with no perspective of where it relates to overall gun safety. In the big picture dropping your gun is the first mistake, yet those who attack SIG for their situation are never willing to admit where that responsibility lies in the first place. As for superheated coffee - wouldn't have happened if it hadn't been mishandled. This goes directly to the thread I started which was deliberately moved and died in GD - your gun handling skills are the first problem.

I'm not currently posting walls of text but I can tell you those ill equipped to read them seem to be my biggest detractors. And it remains that nobody is yet willing to discuss methodology of testing. Since when is SIG or any maker responsible to keep testing until every possible cause of discharge is ferreted out? It IS making a new standard - instead of 6 different angles of drop testing, how many is the new requirement? 16? 87?

Specify them - by angle, which end is up or down, and why it's important. Talk technical testing and stop talking trash.

I've posted a video twice of other guns being dropped the same way and not going off. The real world doesn't care about standardized testing. 

It's been six days since my last post and one poster has posted.

The reality is that, yes, the people who buy guns don't have a clue about drop testing safety, but because they can express an opinion on it they will, regardless of whether it has any valid content.

I linked the test procedure and there has been almost no discussion of how it's faulty, what tests should be included, or how to improve it. In other words, a technical forum post is dying of a lack of input over technical discussion.

This could as well be moved to GD for it's contribution to safety.

I stand by my assertion that if you drop the gun, you are the primary cause of the incident if it goes off. Guns have had the engineering focus on making them reliable igniters of primers for over 130 years, what interferes with it going off has been eliminated as much as possible with the continued turnover of designs. Trying to make them NOT go off is considered the evil defect that needs to be cured.

You can't make guns 100% safe, and humans never will be, so get used to it. And if you modify it in any way - then the prior factory drop testing is no longer valid. If you don't send it in to be tested with the new parts installed, you are using an unsafe gun. You and I might not see it that way, but it is now part of the demonology that will be used against the owner.

Goes to: Who started drop testing a gun already tested, and why did the news break just before the maker was announcing a voluntary recall? For all the catcalls that fanboys are involved, why is it silent on this?

Fanboys ARE involved, and you know it.

I will say this again. You are making a false assertion. Firearms designers are not just designing guns to consistently fire, they are designing them to do consistently fire when someone pulls the trigger.

If a gun goes off without user input, that is a problem. Engineers are not designing guns to do that.

Do you think Taurus's shake firing issue is also not a problem? Why or why not?

500,000 sold, number of accidents because of this issue (+reckless gun handling, combined): 1

First, how do you know it was reckless gun handling? Second, one isn't enough for you? How many accidents need to take place before it is a problem?

Seriously you fucking fanbois are

How do you know there has only been one?

You think sig would have implemented the recall with out the lawsuits and the online witch hunt?

Got mine back today, a full 10 days back and forth. Pretty quick actually. The trigger feels just  about the same as i remember,as far as pull, but I dont like the looks of the new one at all Attached File


Imo it looks kind of fragile and cheap especially compared to the old one, I understand why they did this but I was wondering if there are any available aftermarket replacements out there, that will be “safe” to install? Attached File

I was wondering the same on the look of the trigger.

My compact just went back to Sig yesterday.

I was thinking of going with a flat trigger... what options do I have that support the drop safety...?

What is all this about a 'drop safety'? Typically the firing pin block in most modern hand guns serves that purpose. Other guns manage it with no additional parts at all, like the Kel Tec P11 which has a lightweight Titanium firing pin and a strong firing pin spring. It basically cannot be made to fire up to the limit of the maximum expected acceleration, which is what you'd expect to see by throwing the gun as hard as you can into a hard surface so it lands directly on the muzzle, imparting the maximum forward acceleration to the firing pin. And don't forget, the P11 firing system leaves the hammer down at all times except when the trigger is being pulled - there is no way to leave it cocked. There is no manual safety. Just the long and hard trigger pull. :)
Yes, I would expect any modern service pistol to have a firing pin safety but I also would expect it to be disengaged by operation of the trigger.
BTW, this is why my favorite carry pistol is the P11. It is as close as you can get to an inert object in a hand gun until you pull that trigger, and that is not going to happen by accident. But obviously something with such a simple, yet elegant design could never be a U.S. service pistol.

This is exactly how the P320 was designed. The problem was never the lack of a drop safety. The design always had one. The issue was that the P320 has no trigger safety, i.e. Glock, and the metal trigger itself was very thick and heavy. When dropped at the exact right angle, the mass of the heavier trigger literally allowed the impact with the ground to pull the trigger. SIG didn’t actually address this problem by making any safety changes. They simply took their tweaked trigger design for the MHS pistol and started applying it to older guns which lightened the trigger and also resulted in a slightly cleaner trigger break due to a disconnector design they used for the MHS/M17 pistols.

Just got back the second of two 320s I sent in for the upgrade.

21 days total turnaround time. Not too bad for time.

Agree with what others have said about the trigger pull. No substantial change in the feel.

I have a P320 X carry but it seems a bit" long in the grip" for optimal carry for me...

But I don't like the subcompact frame lacking the x features...

Has anyone cut an X frame down to fit Sub mags?

I see the replacement X grips are out now, at worse it is a $59 mistake?

http://soldiersystems.net/2018/04/02/sig-p320-completes-government-10000-round-first-article-testing-with-zero-issues/

TL; DR: 6 pistols put thru 10,000 rounds each Gold Dot for First Article acceptance trials at SIG's facility. No malfunctions.
Drop testing conducted on the required 6 axis test method, no malfunctions.

Testing was not attributed to any specific agency, however, a First Article of this size and scope means another massive order of tens of thousands. Every service has now placed orders, https://www.military.com/kitup/2018/03/15/sig-sauer-every-service-has-placed-orders-modular-handgun-system.html therefore it's speculated this is for Homeland.