[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Run Toward or Fall Back (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 9/16/2010 9:48:11 AM EDT
|
In reference to this post in GD
Lets say your at our favorite store Wally World, and you hear shots ring out, like the scenario discussed in the above topic. Do you run toward the gun fire and protect the sheep? or Do you take a defensive position and protect your own ass/asses of you family and friends? |
|
Depends.
If with my family we're GTFO of there and I'm doing whatever I can to do so right f'ing now. If gun wielding maniac and us cross paths somehow I'm charging him to draw fire from my family/taking advantage of cover to return fire so my family can keep trucking. Whatever is appropriate to the dynamic situation. If my actions help others unrelated to me get out so much the better. But that's just a happy bonus as my job is protecting my family. If not with my family I *think* I'm going hunting if there's a remote chance I can end the carnage and stop other people from getting hurt/killed. I say *think* above because we don't really know what we'll do in the heat of the moment but I've made the internal decision that I'm willing to respond if the opportunity arises. |
|
Quoted:
Depends. If with my family we're GTFO of there and I'm doing whatever I can to do so right f'ing now. If gun wielding maniac and us cross paths somehow I'm charging him to draw fire from my family/taking advantage of cover to return fire so my family can keep trucking. Whatever is appropriate to the dynamic situation. If my actions help others unrelated to me get out so much the better. But that's just a happy bonus as my job is protecting my family. If not with my family I *think* I'm going hunting if there's a remote chance I can end the carnage and stop other people from getting hurt/killed. I say *think* above because we don't really know what we'll do in the heat of the moment but I've made the internal decision that I'm willing to respond if the opportunity arises. While that may sound noble, there are several potential problems. 1) Unless you actually see the tango, there is no way to be certain if there are multiple threats. 2) He/they might have a rifle/rifles which puts you at a serious disadvantage. (Obviously) 3) If police are responding you could find yourself in the crosshairs of the PD SRT sniper, or entry team. They will not be likely to know exactly what the perp looks like. Not good. Like you said, your job is to protect your own family, exfil ASAP and give any pertinent intel to the PD operators. If you were armed with an AR and had a few buddies with you, then it would be a different story. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Depends. If with my family we're GTFO of there and I'm doing whatever I can to do so right f'ing now. If gun wielding maniac and us cross paths somehow I'm charging him to draw fire from my family/taking advantage of cover to return fire so my family can keep trucking. Whatever is appropriate to the dynamic situation. If my actions help others unrelated to me get out so much the better. But that's just a happy bonus as my job is protecting my family. If not with my family I *think* I'm going hunting if there's a remote chance I can end the carnage and stop other people from getting hurt/killed. I say *think* above because we don't really know what we'll do in the heat of the moment but I've made the internal decision that I'm willing to respond if the opportunity arises. While that may sound noble, there are several potential problems. 1) Unless you actually see the tango, there is no way to be certain if there are multiple threats. 2) He/they might have a rifle/rifles which puts you at a serious disadvantage. (Obviously) 3) If police are responding you could find yourself in the crosshairs of the PD SRT sniper, or entry team. They will not be likely to know exactly what the perp looks like. Not good. Like you said, your job is to protect your own family, exfil ASAP and give any pertinent intel to the PD operators. If you were armed with an AR and had a few buddies with you, then it would be a different story. You are right. There's a whole lot of risk involved. And they are risks that would have to be weighed in the heat of the moment. But if innocent people are being slaughtered, and there was some sorta chance to stop it, my conscious would struggle with just running off. Besides, the police are going to arrive, set up a perimeter and a bunch more people are going to die in the process (that's not a slag on the police, it's just a natural result of them having to respond in a tactically wise way ). And I'm not too worried about being in a police snipers crosshairs because by the time they are able to respond and setup most of these situations are over. But don't get me wrong, I fully recognize it's a decision fraught with danger. |
|
Clint Smith said it in a training video:
“A lot of people used to tell me ‘run to the sound of gunfire’. Well I got another one for ya….’curiosity killed the cat.’” We will all have to make a personal decision in the heat of the moment and train for that possibility some day. I always tell people in my CCW class that I am not responsible for everyone’s safety. I am not LEO and am not paid to perform their duties. Every person we pass on the street has the same ability to take responsibility for their own safety just like CCW holders do. The fact that they live in a false reality where they will never need a firearm to defend themselves is their decision. Not to be ugly about it, but that’s the way I feel. I will protect me and mine #1. |
|
Way, way to many variables to come up with an overarching answer. Generally, I am getting the family and GTFO.
But now let's say the shooting starts in the same check out isle you're in, or the customer service desk 10 yards away and/or the incident is between you and the exit. Completely different reaction probably than if its half an acre away from me over at the far corner of the WM Supercenter. Does your opinion change if you hear semi-auto rifle fire versus hearing/seeing some thug with a Raven .25? What if 2 thugs are standing there trading shots with each other?? More questions and scenarios than I'd want to think about, but the defacto plan is to bail out of harm's way. |
|
if the threat is within a close proximity and starts shooting at people then yeah im pulling my gun and shooting him before he shoots me. For example if I'm checking out at the store and a guy starts shooting the customer service section I will do what I can to stop it, to me its going to be a situation where there is obvious fear of life for you and others, protection is why we carry guns in the first place. Now If im in sporting goods and that same thing happens I am not about to run across the store and play tango hunt.
Remember there is no respawn in real life dead is dead most of us arnt trained LEO even if you are military trained you wont be walking around wally world in body armor with assault rifles. Best thing to do is GTFO and let those who do have the gear take out the badies |
|
Well most yes will run away and that is smart. Me, being trained and having seen combat, being wounded in combat, trained in CQC, and doing many other things I will not speak of I myself I am going toward the gun fire I swore an oath to protect the constitution and the people of this nation. I may not be in the Marines anymore but that oath still holds true to me. I am whiling to trade my life so other will live. If I can save at least one person from dying I feel I have died with honor and I can come to terms with that. This is not a hero complex this is just what I feel is right and this is my personal belief do not follow what I would do and try to be a hero.
My recommendation to others is do a strategic withdraw (not retreat) keeping cover and try to keep eyes on your mark(if at all possible) in case you do have to engage. If you do have to engage try to keep as best cover as you can and try to remain calm. Keep your whits about and try to steady your breathing and slow your heart rate to keep from getting over excited otherwise you will turn your handgun into what seems like a machine gun where you are spraying and praying. The first time you face combat it will be like nothing else you have ever experience or experienced in your life no training can fully prepare you for it but it will help the more you have trust me on this. If you do become wounded remember the fight is still not over because they may want to finish you off so do you best to retain your weapon because it is your life at this point and no matter what do not give up because you can survive a gun shot wound I am living proof I took 3 - 7.62 rounds. Remember also that when you think the fight it over it is not till the police arrive and relive you. Because the moment you let your guard down thinking it is over and relax all hell can break loose again then you get to start from square one with dealing with the surge of adrenaline. Disclaimer: Combat is not like in the movies and bullets can kill you and kill you fast. ETA..... Everyone ask yourself are you whiling to die for another and really think about it Are you whiling to lay down your life for someone else can you come to terms with that if you die? |
|
With my family and friends - Im protecting them, and GTFO.
By myself - Im doing whatever I can to stop the perp. A few here say you will be shot by police. More than likely though, poilce will not be there for sometime. Someone posted why should they be responsble for those who are not going to take responsibilities for themselves i.e. not carry a gun. I whole heartedly agree with that, BUT, there are also going to be children, and they have yet had the opportunity nor are they of age to decide that for themselves. Am I willing to die for others? Yes. Could my answer change once the bullets start flying? Of course, Ive never been in a situation like that. |
|
Quoted:
With my family and friends - Im protecting them, and GTFO. By myself - Im doing whatever I can to stop the perp. A few here say you will be shot by police. More than likely though, poilce will not be there for sometime. Someone posted why should they be responsble for those who are not going to take responsibilities for themselves i.e. not carry a gun. I whole heartedly agree with that, BUT, there are also going to be children, and they have yet had the opportunity nor are they of age to decide that for themselves. Am I willing to die for others? Yes. Could my answer change once the bullets start flying? Of course, Ive never been in a situation like that. I promise you when the situation comes you will either choose to stand and fight or choose the flight. If you choose flight I myself would never look down on someone for self preservation. Trust me when you face that situation for the first time you really find out what you are made of. I have seen guys tuck tail and break down when the bullets start flying. My first time the bullets were being shot at me to kill me I will admit I had a moment of pause(luckily it was at a moment that did not compromise me or my friends) to get my head together because in training you can only go so far to make it seem real. But the first time when it is real words cannot describe what you will experience. I hope no one ever has to go through this either. |
Depends on how long I have been there shopping. If I have had to put up with more than 15 minutes of Walmart then that means even after putting up with walmart for all that time, now I am not going to even get to buy my one box of .45's I happened to finally find because all the cashiers are going to be running for their lives and I am going to become pissed. I would then pull out my reflective yellow CONCEALED CARRY PERMIT HOLDER vest and put it on, along with my ccw badge so everyone knows who I am and so I don't get shot by the police. Then I would hunt down that sumbitch and take out my anger on him.
Seriously, I am not sure what I would do. I have no family of my own. This is what I think I would do. I wouldn't freak and start running with the sheep, I would take cover and try to get a grip on what exactly is happening and see if I can make a move, and then if I think I can effectively take out the threat/threats then I will do my best. |
|
For myself, I am dialing 911 as I move toward the nearest exit. If I am with family I am having one of them dial 911 as we work to GTFO.
If I am confronted with a bad guy pointing a weapon at me I will at that point take appropriate action. The problem I have moving towards the gunfire and seeing two "thugs" shooting it out would be the "what if" factor. With the main "what if" being is there a chance that one "thug" is a LEO undercover? I know the likelihood of that is probably quite low. However I do not want to take that chance. If I am standing in the checkout line and a gunfight breaks out within line of sight then I will make that decision if I am ever confronted with that scenario. |
|
Yea . . . RUN to the fight, draw your gun and take out that guy in blue jeans with a gun in his hand (who is actually working undercover for Wally World) with a shot in the back. In the ensuing chaos the bad guy slips into the crowd and gets away.
Then, five seconds later, Bubba . . . who was over in Sporting Goods barrels around the corner with his Glock .40 cal and . . . seeing the bad guy with a gun hovering over the guy in blue jeans . . . decides to take you out with a shot in the back. Good news . . . you and the guard both recover!!! Bad news . . . Walmart AND the guard, now paralized for life thanks to your lack of training and judgement) get the best lawyer in the country and go after YOU. More bad news . . . The company you work for fires you because of the bad publicity it gets and you sell everything you've got to pay your legal fees. A gun and a CCW permit does not turn you into Deputy Dawg. Leave it to the professional LEOs to figure it out. Otherwise, in the clinical courtroom years later you'll possibly have your bones picked clean. |
|
THIS x A BRAZILLION!!!!!!!!!
Quoted:
Yea . . . RUN to the fight, draw your gun and take out that guy in blue jeans with a gun in his hand (who is actually working undercover for Wally World) with a shot in the back. In the ensuing chaos the bad guy slips into the crowd and gets away. Then, five seconds later, Bubba . . . who was over in Sporting Goods barrels around the corner with his Glock .40 cal and . . . seeing the bad guy with a gun hovering over the guy in blue jeans . . . decides to take you out with a shot in the back. Good news . . . you and the guard both recover!!! Bad news . . . Walmart AND the guard, now paralized for life thanks to your lack of training and judgement) get the best lawyer in the country and go after YOU. More bad news . . . The company you work for fires you because of the bad publicity it gets and you sell everything you've got to pay your legal fees. A gun and a CCW permit does not turn you into Deputy Dawg. Leave it to the professional LEOs to figure it out. Otherwise, in the clinical courtroom years later you'll possibly have your bones picked clean. |
|
Quoted:
Well most yes will run away and that is smart. Me, being trained and having seen combat, being wounded in combat, trained in CQC, and doing many other things I will not speak of I myself I am going toward the gun fire I swore an oath to protect the constitution and the people of this nation. I may not be in the Marines anymore but that oath still holds true to me. I am whiling to trade my life so other will live. If I can save at least one person from dying I feel I have died with honor and I can come to terms with that. This is not a hero complex this is just what I feel is right and this is my personal belief do not follow what I would do and try to be a hero. My recommendation to others is do a strategic withdraw (not retreat) keeping cover and try to keep eyes on your mark(if at all possible) in case you do have to engage. If you do have to engage try to keep as best cover as you can and try to remain calm. Keep your whits about and try to steady your breathing and slow your heart rate to keep from getting over excited otherwise you will turn your handgun into what seems like a machine gun where you are spraying and praying. The first time you face combat it will be like nothing else you have ever experience or experienced in your life no training can fully prepare you for it but it will help the more you have trust me on this. If you do become wounded remember the fight is still not over because they may want to finish you off so do you best to retain your weapon because it is your life at this point and no matter what do not give up because you can survive a gun shot wound I am living proof I took 3 - 7.62 rounds. Remember also that when you think the fight it over it is not till the police arrive and relive you. Because the moment you let your guard down thinking it is over and relax all hell can break loose again then you get to start from square one with dealing with the surge of adrenaline. Disclaimer: Combat is not like in the movies and bullets can kill you and kill you fast. ETA..... Everyone ask yourself are you whiling to die for another and really think about it Are you whiling to lay down your life for someone else can you come to terms with that if you die? Good post. Everyone talks about "protecting the sheep" and so forth, but in reality it seems only a minority of CCW holders actually intend to do it. |
|
Quoted:
For myself, I am dialing 911 as I move toward the nearest exit. If I am with family I am having one of them dial 911 as we work to GTFO. If I am confronted with a bad guy pointing a weapon at me I will at that point take appropriate action. The problem I have moving towards the gunfire and seeing two "thugs" shooting it out would be the "what if" factor. With the main "what if" being is there a chance that one "thug" is a LEO undercover? I know the likelihood of that is probably quite low. However I do not want to take that chance. If I am standing in the checkout line and a gunfight breaks out within line of sight then I will make that decision if I am ever confronted with that scenario. That's a different scenario that originally described. If two guys are shooting at each other I'm GTFO regardless if alone or with family. Too many details, most of which you can't know, that have to be sorted out in factions of seconds. Buh bye. I'll give my statement to the police and see you later. Besides, in Ohio you can't use deadly force to protect someone unless they would have been legally allowed to use it themselves. You don't know which one of those parties is the "innocent" person, or even if any of them are "innocent". If it's the "lone wacko at the mall" scenario that's a different story (and the one given to us originally). I have no illusions of being a bubba who saunters around playing John McClain. That said, if the situation presents itself where I can stop a piece of trash from killing innocents but I chose to run because its easier, my conscious can't deal with that. But here's the kicker. The key to my last statement is "if the situation presents itself". Dude has a full auto rifle and has somehow gotten in an elevated position? Yea...buh bye. It's clear there are a couple guys doing the shooting? I might try to get one if the situation presents itself while I'm getting out of there but I'm not playing tag with them. I'm not saying be a total idiot and die so people can forget you a week later. But just running because it's easier doesn't make sense for me personally. |
| I pursued my CHL to protect myself and family from harm, period. If we are out and about in our daily lives and some deranged madman pulls a gun and starts shooting random folks right in front of me, I may go on the offensive after getting my loved ones down or to cover. If we're out and I hear gunshots somewhere in the distance and can't see what is going on, there is no way I'm running towards that. I'm not knocking the people in this thread who indicate they will run to the fight, but IMHO the probability of something bad coming out of that course of action is almost 100%. |
|
I have thought about this...
If I'm alone, I'm making my way to the exit furthest from the gunfire as quickly as I can. If I'm with the wife, I will get to where I think she is as quick as I can and then exit at the door furthest from the gunfire. In either case, I am not trying to call anyone or do anything but concentrate on being aware of every detail around me and being immediatly ready to apply deadly force if required to get out or get to the wife. Once out of the building, I will write down exactly what I saw and did (so I have my information straight when interviewed later) then worry about calling the cops or not. Everyone has a cell phone so I doubt my call is going to be required for the cops. I also will not be distracted trying to use a cell phone as I escape the threat. If the shooting begins within 20 yards of me or my wife and in direct sight of me, it is likely I will have to engage the shooter to ensure our survival. In that case, I will immediatly be working to get a clean shot from cover. Of course all this is probably BS since it would be a dynamic situation and all plans change after the first shot is fired. 
All I can say for sure is that I am not running to the danger to save people I do not know. |
| I was a Police officer for 6 years in P.R and I remember in the academy they always said : 1st me, 2nd me and anything else me, dont fall asleep in the 3 seconds you have to react and if your going to put him down make it hard and cover your ass in the paper work. |
| My gun has always been a last resort as in, 1) I'm being herded into a bathroom at the 7-11 and I know I and everybody else being herded in is probably about to be murdered. 2) My wife and I are in a restaurant and a shooter is calmly walking around shooting people where they lay. When he gets close to my table I'll start firing. 3) I'm forced off the road at night and the dude is walking toward my car which can't drive away. All the above are no-brainers. Anything else is dangerous and foolish as the earlier listed scenerios stated. |
|
Quoted:
I was a Police officer for 6 years in P.R and I remember in the academy they always said : 1st me, 2nd me and anything else me, dont fall asleep in the 3 seconds you have to react and if your gonig to put him down make it hard and cover your ass in the paper work. That supposed training tip infuriates me. Cops are soldiers on the domestic front. A soldier's first duty is to the mission. The mission is to protect innocents. Cops hanging back waiting for back-up is what got more people killed in the Virginia Tech massacre. You get your ass in there and throw yourself at the BG. If you're afraid of dying get the hell out of the profession! Shortly after that shooting a lone police officer in another town didn't wait for back up but charged in and took out a BG before he could do further carnage. I can't remember the exact time or place but that brave soul performed brilliantly. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
I was a Police officer for 6 years in P.R and I remember in the academy they always said : 1st me, 2nd me and anything else me, dont fall asleep in the 3 seconds you have to react and if your gonig to put him down make it hard and cover your ass in the paper work. That supposed training tip infuriates me. Cops are soldiers on the domestic front. A soldier's first duty is to the mission. The mission is to protect innocents. Cops hanging back waiting for back-up is what got more people killed in the Virginia Tech massacre. You get your ass in there and throw yourself at the BG. If you're afraid of dying get the hell out of the profession! Shortly after that shooting a lone police officer in another town didn't wait for back up but charged in and took out a BG before he could do further carnage. I can't remember the exact time or place but that brave soul performed brilliantly. It's gonna get worse. In this day and age, the officer that charges in and takes out the BG is a slobbering murderer who should have waited, and will be treated as such by the press and the feds. There is vanishingly little to be gained anywhere in this life by acting like you should as a peace officer. |
|
Quoted: That supposed training tip infuriates me. Cops are soldiers on the domestic front. Cops are under no obligation to protect you. They are law enforcement, not bodyguards. Their duty is to be a "good witness" so they can catch the suspect after you're tagged and bagged. Anyone on a CCW forum should be well aware of this. |
|
Quoted:
I agree. They criticize everthing police officers do and crucify them any chance they get , but they don't put in the paper work for the academy. Some forget that in order to protect you that officer has to protect himself to acheive that. Rushing in to a situation to play hero will get you killed and the only benefit is that you will make SGT after your dead. Shootings are a crapshoot when the officer survived that means he got lucky that day.
Quoted:
Quoted:
I was a Police officer for 6 years in P.R and I remember in the academy they always said : 1st me, 2nd me and anything else me, dont fall asleep in the 3 seconds you have to react and if your gonig to put him down make it hard and cover your ass in the paper work. That supposed training tip infuriates me. Cops are soldiers on the domestic front. A soldier's first duty is to the mission. The mission is to protect innocents. Cops hanging back waiting for back-up is what got more people killed in the Virginia Tech massacre. You get your ass in there and throw yourself at the BG. If you're afraid of dying get the hell out of the profession! Shortly after that shooting a lone police officer in another town didn't wait for back up but charged in and took out a BG before he could do further carnage. I can't remember the exact time or place but that brave soul performed brilliantly. It's gonna get worse. In this day and age, the officer that charges in and takes out the BG is a slobbering murderer who should have waited, and will be treated as such by the press and the feds. There is vanishingly little to be gained anywhere in this life by acting like you should as a peace officer. |
|
Quoted:
Yeah........... right........but you could have done it better if you would have been there......... right?
Quoted:
I was a Police officer for 6 years in P.R and I remember in the academy they always said : 1st me, 2nd me and anything else me, dont fall asleep in the 3 seconds you have to react and if your gonig to put him down make it hard and cover your ass in the paper work. That supposed training tip infuriates me. Cops are soldiers on the domestic front. A soldier's first duty is to the mission. The mission is to protect innocents. Cops hanging back waiting for back-up is what got more people killed in the Virginia Tech massacre. You get your ass in there and throw yourself at the BG. If you're afraid of dying get the hell out of the profession! Shortly after that shooting a lone police officer in another town didn't wait for back up but charged in and took out a BG before he could do further carnage. I can't remember the exact time or place but that brave soul performed brilliantly. |
|
let's recap the possibilities if you decide to draw and shoot:
- you shoot the wrong person because the situation is confusing. - you hit a bystander or other innocent. - you shoot the right guy, and he survives, and sues you. - you shoot the right guy, and he dies, and his relatives sue you. - you shoot the right guy, and he dies, and the local prosecutor who doesn't like gunowners charges you with some sort of crime. - you miss, but he doesn't, and you are wounded or killed. - law enforcement, for once, shows up before everything is over, and they shoot you. the above possibilities aside, you can bet that if you are seen to draw a gun in such a situation you will at some point be face down in handcuffs, ("officer safety" being paramount), you will spend time in a cell, and your firearm will be confiscated. you will almost undoubtedly have to hire an attorney, and his retainer would have bought you several custom 1911's. you can be sued by any of the above parties, with or without justification, and even if you win you can be broken financially. the only reason ever to draw that gun is that you and family are faced with the imminent prospect of death, with no other option, and that is the only thing worse than the above consequences. |
|
Quoted:
let's recap the possibilities if you decide to draw and shoot: - you shoot the wrong person because the situation is confusing. - you hit a bystander or other innocent. - you shoot the right guy, and he survives, and sues you. - you shoot the right guy, and he dies, and his relatives sue you. - you shoot the right guy, and he dies, and the local prosecutor who doesn't like gunowners charges you with some sort of crime. - you miss, but he doesn't, and you are wounded or killed. - law enforcement, for once, shows up before everything is over, and they shoot you. the above possibilities aside, you can bet that if you are seen to draw a gun in such a situation you will at some point be face down in handcuffs, ("officer safety" being paramount), you will spend time in a cell, and your firearm will be confiscated. you will almost undoubtedly have to hire an attorney, and his retainer would have bought you several custom 1911's. you can be sued by any of the above parties, with or without justification, and even if you win you can be broken financially. the only reason ever to draw that gun is that you and family are faced with the imminent prospect of death, with no other option, and that is the only thing worse than the above consequences. That is real easy for you to say and play the what if game. But when people are dying I, regardless of the consequences am not going to stand by and watch my fellow Americans die because some f**k wad wants to kill people because he was fired for something that was his fault and blames the world. It maybe easy for you guys to cut and run that is cool.... I can careless about my money or what happens to me when people are dying that are innocent I am not going to stand by I know a jury of my pears and the good Lord above will get me through like he did for me in the sandboxes. |
|
your fellow americans in the scenarios above are the same folks that are going to be shooting you, suing you or prosecuting you when the dust settles. your innocent people are the ones who will turn on you afterward if they find out you have anything worth taking. a jury of your peers, or even your pears, may absolve you, but it will mean spending many, many years pay to get there, and all the while, in our sick system, prosecution an defense will badger you to accept a plea bargain.
if you choose to act selflessly for strangers in the face of all that, you have my unreserved respect. I wish you well. |
|
I'm going forward.
I know what getting shot feels like. I'd rather not learn what regretting my decision to run away every day for the rest of my life feels like. As for the "getting shot by the cops" deal... good thing I know half the SERT team and all of the guys that patrol my area. Also, calling 911 yourself in the process and telling them what you're wearing and that you're armed might be a good idea... just maybe. |
|
again, I wish you well. hope your shooting happens where you live, and that it's your friends who are on duty and respond. hope that the cell phone thing works out- with a gun in one hand, half deaf from gunfire in an enclosed space, if you even have reception, while you're feeling amped up and trying to look over your shoulder.
thanks, I'll head for the exit right behind my wife. as dirty harry said, " a man's gotta know his limitations". I probably overstated the possibility of being shot by a trigger happy swat team- they never seem to arrive in a timely fashion, probably because it takes chubby guys so long to wriggle into their tactical gear. |
|
Quoted:
I'm going forward. I know what getting shot feels like. I'd rather not learn what regretting my decision to run away every day for the rest of my life feels like. As for the "getting shot by the cops" deal... good thing I know half the SERT team and all of the guys that patrol my area. Also, calling 911 yourself in the process and telling them what you're wearing and that you're armed might be a good idea... just maybe. Playing a bit of devil's advocate here, but I'd bet any 911 dispatcher is going to instruct you to get out and/or find a place to take cover and wait for the LEOs to arrive (I'm sure they have standard procedures for these things after so many active shooter incidents around the country), and not take any responsive actions yourself. |
|
According to the literature that accompanies Florida concealed weapons licenses the license doesn't confer the status of "freelance policeman" on those who have one.
Just another reason that I'm hunkering down or going out the door ASAP if I can unless the circumstances are extraordinary. I'm not a protector of the sheep nor am I going to rush into a situation that might find me shooting another innocent CCWer or a detective or possibly getting gunned down by one of them myself. Also that "be certain about what's behind your target" thing; I don't want to send bullets into an innocent bystander simply because I don't have an accurate tactical grasp of the situation or any real actionable intelligence. I'll use my gun if I have to; but I'm definitely not going to Rambo it by any means. And the situation would need to be desperate for me and mine or at the least, as clear as hell as to what exactly is going on. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
I'm going forward. I know what getting shot feels like. I'd rather not learn what regretting my decision to run away every day for the rest of my life feels like. As for the "getting shot by the cops" deal... good thing I know half the SERT team and all of the guys that patrol my area. Also, calling 911 yourself in the process and telling them what you're wearing and that you're armed might be a good idea... just maybe. Playing a bit of devil's advocate here, but I'd bet any 911 dispatcher is going to instruct you to get out and/or find a place to take cover and wait for the LEOs to arrive (I'm sure they have standard procedures for these things after so many active shooter incidents around the country), and not take any responsive actions yourself. The hell with what the 911 dispatcher orders you to do. In "Thank God I had a Handgun" there was a case where the 911 operator ordered an elderly lady who was holding a home invader at gunpoint to put the gun down until the police arrived. She didn't and I would either. BTW; the police dept. tried to bullshit its way out of embarrassment by telling the press that their dispatcher never told the old woman to put down the gun and wait for the police. The tapes told the true story. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I'm going forward. I know what getting shot feels like. I'd rather not learn what regretting my decision to run away every day for the rest of my life feels like. As for the "getting shot by the cops" deal... good thing I know half the SERT team and all of the guys that patrol my area. Also, calling 911 yourself in the process and telling them what you're wearing and that you're armed might be a good idea... just maybe. Playing a bit of devil's advocate here, but I'd bet any 911 dispatcher is going to instruct you to get out and/or find a place to take cover and wait for the LEOs to arrive (I'm sure they have standard procedures for these things after so many active shooter incidents around the country), and not take any responsive actions yourself. The hell with what the 911 dispatcher orders you to do. In "Thank God I had a Handgun" there was a case where the 911 operator ordered an elderly lady who was holding a home invader at gunpoint to put the gun down until the police arrived. She didn't and I would either. BTW; the police dept. tried to bullshit its way out of embarrassment by telling the press that their dispatcher never told the old woman to put down the gun and wait for the police. The tapes told the true story. Well of course, but the point being is that the cops do not want the added problem to have to sort out who is the "good" guy and who is the "real" shooter. And, in this case, I can't necessarily say that "get out" isn't good advice. |
|
Quoted:
again, I wish you well. hope your shooting happens where you live, and that it's your friends who are on duty and respond. hope that the cell phone thing works out- with a gun in one hand, half deaf from gunfire in an enclosed space, if you even have reception, while you're feeling amped up and trying to look over your shoulder. thanks, I'll head for the exit right behind my wife. as dirty harry said, " a man's gotta know his limitations". I probably overstated the possibility of being shot by a trigger happy swat team- they never seem to arrive in a timely fashion, probably because it takes chubby guys so long to wriggle into their tactical gear. My hearing came back pretty quick the first time. Gunshots indoors are a little quieter than I thought they'd be when bad stuff is happening. The hearing thing is location dependent too; if someone starts shooting people in the far corner of the store, diagonal from me, it's not as loud as if they're in the next isle. If they are, I'm not wasting time calling 911. Our SWAT team is anything but chubby, they go on five or six mile runs for fun before going to the range for a day of shooting, running berms and push-ups. Three of them were our PT instructors in the academy and they smoked our asses more than once. Like I said, I could not live with myself if I didn't at least see what was going on. There are no visions of Rambo dancing in my head, I've thought it out, and know the pros and cons of my decision. If you have a wife/kids, then it's completely understandable that you'd go with them and get them out of harm's way. You need to be there for your wife and be there for your kids as their father. The only living thing that counts on me is my dog.
Sometimes I wonder if people have visions of permit holders running willy nilly through the store like a bad 80s/90s action movie with Steven Seagal... Quoted:
Quoted:
I'm going forward. I know what getting shot feels like. I'd rather not learn what regretting my decision to run away every day for the rest of my life feels like. As for the "getting shot by the cops" deal... good thing I know half the SERT team and all of the guys that patrol my area. Also, calling 911 yourself in the process and telling them what you're wearing and that you're armed might be a good idea... just maybe. Playing a bit of devil's advocate here, but I'd bet any 911 dispatcher is going to instruct you to get out and/or find a place to take cover and wait for the LEOs to arrive (I'm sure they have standard procedures for these things after so many active shooter incidents around the country), and not take any responsive actions yourself. They can instruct me to do that. I can ignore those instructions, too. Of course they're going to tell you to basically hide and wait for the "trained" people to get there. Most of the time, after calling 911 three or four times myself for various things and spending 80ish hours in a patrol car this summer (passenger seat, not the back, assholes ), the dispatchers here are good and deputies receive information as soon as dispatch has it. The computers make a god-awful racket if you don't refresh the screen, so they'll know it's there.
As for the CWP not making you a "freelance policeman"... FL law does allow for the use of deadly force in defense of others. I know you know that, I'm just throwing it out there for those who don't. |
| Ive had a little bit of training in CQC from the USAMU, and ive kicked a few doors in, been in a gunfight or two. Having said this, I know better than to rush forward by myself to "take someone out". This is the dumbest act of courage you could possibly do. You brave ones would be better served, and the people around you better served, and what I would do, is Identify an Exit out of the store, then secure and DEFEND that exit so that people can escape. If the gunman shows up, smoke his ass from your covered/concealed position that you Identified around the exit. Rushing in alone is a damn sure way to end up dead. |