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Posted: 3/19/2006 3:39:30 PM EST
At the fun show today I ran across these lines of 1911s with the price hanging around the $300. range. Can anyone shed any light on the reliability of these brands? Not too bad a price for a plinker/fun gun, if they function. I'm sure they won't run with my Colt, But are they a waste of money? fullclip
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 3:55:27 PM EST
You will hear a lot of conflicting opinions on these. I own a RIA 1911 that I picked up at a show a while back. It was $269 at the time. I have put about 1300 rounds of ball ammo through it without any problems. I bought it as a range/plinking gun and it has exceeded my expectations.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 10:17:43 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/19/2006 10:18:56 PM EST by BSheppard]
I know nothing about the Charles Daily but some friends of mine have the Rock Island brand. They both have the 5'' model and paid about $300.00. One is great and the other has had problems from day one. From what I have seen it is a crap shoot. For the money I would buy a SA. They can be had for $400.00 and the quailty is much better IMO.
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 6:24:03 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/20/2006 6:24:37 AM EST by Red_Label]
See the thread below for more opinions on both Charles Daly and Rock Island (not to mention the near-unanimous opinion to avoid the Llama brand).

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=5&f=49&t=27879


I've owned Llama, Charles Daly, and Springfield Armory 1911 pistols. The only brand that I currently have is Charles Daly. That sums it up for me. (Although I still think Springfields are great pistols, my Daly's were BETTER than the SA pistol that I owned, so it went bye-bye.)
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 8:42:32 AM EST

Originally Posted By JohnRippert:
You will hear a lot of conflicting opinions on these. I own a RIA 1911 that I picked up at a show a while back. It was $269 at the time. I have put about 1300 rounds of ball ammo through it without any problems. I bought it as a range/plinking gun and it has exceeded my expectations.

...... .me too.........just got ria for $325.........i like it so far????........havn`t put a lot of rounds through it yet though.....soon as it warms up around here.............don`t expect it to match my colts...but i don`t like beating them up either....this one....whatever...long as it works......
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 8:52:22 AM EST
My cast RIA has been a great shooter. I have easily 1krds through it and it has been 100% reliable.
Recently added an ambi safety and had the hammer trimmed back a little. The gun has hammer bite right out of the box.

I'm thinking I mght add some hi-viz sights to it just to it just for shits a giggles.

Link Posted: 3/21/2006 9:00:26 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/23/2006 3:53:53 PM EST by cheaptrickfan]
I have 2 CD 1911s, one 5" and one 4" and both have been excellent pistols, the only thing changed was the spring in the 5" (went Wolff!!).

eta...
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 11:09:08 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/21/2006 11:10:30 AM EST by drobs]

Originally Posted By cheaptrickfan:
I have 2 CD 1911s, one 5" and one 4" and both have been excellent pistols, the only thing changed was the spring in the 5" (went Wolff!!).



What weight spring did you go with?
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 5:12:12 PM EST
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 6:13:31 PM EST
"It'll be a cold day in hell before I get a 2nd rate knockoff of my beloved 1911"

There's that other opinion.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 7:59:45 PM EST
Don't be afraid of the cheaper brands. Think of it as entry level, you will never get out of it what you will put into it. Also they are not as big of a loss as a Colt if you work on it and mess it up. I own a Charles Daly and have replaced all of the internals. Now it runs fine, with over 1K of rounds through it.

I have recently been trying to contact Charles Daly to find out about getting a new slide. My serial number is 8XX and so far they have not replied to my continued emails. In my mind that tells me they aren't to up on their customer service. Take it as you will, this is just my bellybutton.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 11:43:43 PM EST
the charles daly 1911 was my first 1911, the steel was too soft for my taste, so I sold it for $350 which is what I paid for it in 1999. I then bought a SA Mil-Spec.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 3:24:07 AM EST

Originally Posted By drobs:

Originally Posted By cheaptrickfan:
I have 2 CD 1911s, one 5" and one 4" and both have been excellent pistols, the only thing changed was the spring in the 5" (went Wolff!!).



What weight spring did you go with?



18 lb
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 3:57:38 AM EST



I have found that the Rock Island guns have an extractor that sits too high in the slide. This can cause the pistol to fail to eject on the last round in the magazine if you use a magazine with a flat or concave follower. I have experienced this problem with two different RIA pistols. Actually the second one was a High Standard but it was the exact same gun and was made by Armscor. And I have only examined and/or shot a few of these pistols. They may not all be out-of-spec like this.

When the barrel swings into the unlocked position the fired case tilts with the barrel. On a proper 1911, the case is brought into the 9:00 position during unlocking so that the extractor has a good hold of the case. On a Rock Island, the case is dropped too low on the extractor. If the extractor tension is a little loose, the extractor can drop the case and a stovepipe will result. With additional rounds in the magazine (or with a convex follower) the next round in the magazine will keep the case from dropping so it’ll eject properly.

I have contacted Armscor in Nevada about this and they are supposedly looking into the problem. Also, a shooting buddy of mine bought an Armscor “Enhanced” 1911 with an external extractor. That extractor is in the proper location and that gun seems to work fine. It came with genuine Novak sights, a high cut beavertail and an ambidextrous thumb safety. I think he paid $350 for the pistol new.

You can see from the posted pictures that the Rock Island extractor sits about level with the firing pin hole. On the Kimber, the top of the extractor is flush with the firing pin hole but the majority of the extractor is actually well below the firing pin. I have a couple Colts, an STI, a few Springfields, a couple Norincos and an Argentinean Government Model. All of these pistols have a low extractor.

For the money, I think the Springfield WWII or Milspec is a much better deal.



Link Posted: 3/23/2006 4:08:09 AM EST
What SGB said. +1,000,000,000,000, etc. Charles the Gunsmith.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 2:17:32 PM EST
I have had a couple of self proclaimed experts claim that springfield mil-spec guns are not really mil-spec as they don't accept other parts without a lot of fitting. Anyone ever come across this, or it it all smoke? fullclip
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 6:12:21 PM EST
Wow, that Rock Island breech face looks like ass. The relief on the right side doesn't look like it was cut so much as it was battered into the breech face by several hundred rounds of ammo.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 6:28:15 PM EST
I just took a look at my extractor location and it looks closer to the second picture. The top of the extractor is right at the top of the firing pin hole.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 1:39:26 AM EST

Originally Posted By JohnRippert:
I just took a look at my extractor location and it looks closer to the second picture. The top of the extractor is right at the top of the firing pin hole.



Maybe it's more a question of quality control rather than a production design flaw. Will you do me a favor? Next time you take the pistol to the range, fire a round or two with no magazine in place. See if you get a stovepipe or have the fired case drop out the magazine well.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 7:18:02 AM EST
I bought Rock Island a couple of weeks ago as an entry level 1911.... I know its not the quality of a springer or colt, but mine shoots pretty darn accurate and I have had no problems with it so far... only 275 rounds, but its a start.... its my first 1911 and I wasnt ready to drop alot of money for one.... Its given me a chance to mess around with mods and experiment with different things and if something does happen to the gun, Im not out alot of money.... The biggest problem I see is the hammer bite which I hope to take care of in the next week or so and the sights suck.... but if your looking for a reliable entry level 1911, this is it.... I am extremely happy with the product and price....
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 8:04:55 AM EST

Originally Posted By Melvin_Johnson:
img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/tokarev/Rock.jpg
img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/tokarev/Kimber.jpg

I have found that the Rock Island guns have an extractor that sits too high in the slide. This can cause the pistol to fail to eject on the last round in the magazine if you use a magazine with a flat or concave follower. I have experienced this problem with two different RIA pistols. Actually the second one was a High Standard but it was the exact same gun and was made by Armscor. And I have only examined and/or shot a few of these pistols. They may not all be out-of-spec like this.

When the barrel swings into the unlocked position the fired case tilts with the barrel. On a proper 1911, the case is brought into the 9:00 position during unlocking so that the extractor has a good hold of the case. On a Rock Island, the case is dropped too low on the extractor. If the extractor tension is a little loose, the extractor can drop the case and a stovepipe will result. With additional rounds in the magazine (or with a convex follower) the next round in the magazine will keep the case from dropping so it’ll eject properly.

I have contacted Armscor in Nevada about this and they are supposedly looking into the problem. Also, a shooting buddy of mine bought an Armscor “Enhanced” 1911 with an external extractor. That extractor is in the proper location and that gun seems to work fine. It came with genuine Novak sights, a high cut beavertail and an ambidextrous thumb safety. I think he paid $350 for the pistol new.

You can see from the posted pictures that the Rock Island extractor sits about level with the firing pin hole. On the Kimber, the top of the extractor is flush with the firing pin hole but the majority of the extractor is actually well below the firing pin. I have a couple Colts, an STI, a few Springfields, a couple Norincos and an Argentinean Government Model. All of these pistols have a low extractor.

For the money, I think the Springfield WWII or Milspec is a much better deal.






I really can't tell what I'm looking at. Do you have a Springfield or Kimber Series 1 to show in comparison?
As far as stovepipes and 1911's, what else is new? My RIA has gone 1k+ with no problems no stove pipes no FTF's. It has been Glock/AK reliable right from the get go.

I have a Colt series 70 Gov that I inherited back in 1988, box stock. Gun was a stove pipe king till I had loads of custom work done, way back when.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 1:50:10 PM EST
Buy a Springer or a used Colt.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 2:11:48 PM EST

Originally Posted By drobs:

I really can't tell what I'm looking at. Do you have a Springfield or Kimber Series 1 to show in comparison?
As far as stovepipes and 1911's, what else is new? My RIA has gone 1k+ with no problems no stove pipes no FTF's. It has been Glock/AK reliable right from the get go.

I have a Colt series 70 Gov that I inherited back in 1988, box stock. Gun was a stove pipe king till I had loads of custom work done, way back when.



The top picture is a Rock Island breechface and the bottom picture is a Kimber breechface. Note that the extractor in the top picture is about even with the firing pin hole and the extractor actually appears to sit above the slot in the slide for the ejector.

In the bottom picture, you can see that the extractor itself is lower in the slide. Note that the bottom of the extractor is lower than the slot for the ejector.

It is my belief, and experience, that the Filipino extractor is out of position. I think Smith and Wesson has a similar problem with their 1911.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 5:19:35 PM EST
"Next time you take the pistol to the range, fire a round or two with no magazine in place. See if you get a stovepipe or have the fired case drop out the magazine well."


I will try to remember to do that next time I get out there.

I took another look at mine in better light. The picture of the RIA you have looks to show the extractor channel pretty much even with the firing pin hole. On mine the extractor channel is slightly lower, with the firing pin hole just above center.

It gives people something else they can check.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 3:45:07 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/25/2006 4:07:20 AM EST by drobs]
Thanks for clarifying. Have you tried exchanging the Kimber extractor for the RIA and vicea versa. Any change in position? Lookin at the extractor channel on the RIA (in your picture) I can see there is more material between the bottom of the channel and the bottom of the slide.

I know Para Ordnance went to a new wider extractor, wonder how their extractor channel would compare to those two?

I went at looked at my RIA and SAGI both look like the 2nd lower picture. With the top of the extractor lining up with the top of the firing pin channel. I'll see if I can't set up my camera today and get some pics.

This is probably a stupid question, but does anything change if you put the slides back on the guns?

I know there have been a couple couple different production runs on the RIA's. I hear the 1st run wasn't so good. I've heard complaints from owners that bought RIA's when they 1st came out.

When I bought my RIA, I ordered it directly from RSR, ensuring it would be a newer run gun.

What's the serial number range on the RIA in the picture?




Link Posted: 3/26/2006 6:17:14 AM EST

Originally Posted By drobs:
Thanks for clarifying. Have you tried exchanging the Kimber extractor for the RIA and vicea versa. Any change in position? Lookin at the extractor channel on the RIA (in your picture) I can see there is more material between the bottom of the channel and the bottom of the slide.

I know Para Ordnance went to a new wider extractor, wonder how their extractor channel would compare to those two?

I went at looked at my RIA and SAGI both look like the 2nd lower picture. With the top of the extractor lining up with the top of the firing pin channel. I'll see if I can't set up my camera today and get some pics.

This is probably a stupid question, but does anything change if you put the slides back on the guns?

I know there have been a couple couple different production runs on the RIA's. I hear the 1st run wasn't so good. I've heard complaints from owners that bought RIA's when they 1st came out.

When I bought my RIA, I ordered it directly from RSR, ensuring it would be a newer run gun.

What's the serial number range on the RIA in the picture?







Drobs,

I sold the RIA recently so I can't answer anything else about it. I bought the gun new about 18 months ago but don't know which production run it came from. I will say that the extractor in the above picture is an Ed Brown part. The Brown extractor has a smaller hook than the factory RIA extractor but the RIA part would not hold tension and I had to re-tune it every few hundred rounds.

RIA guns are okay but not for the current prices. Seems most places are getting $400 +/- nowadays. There are still too many variables in these guns for that kind of scratch. The Springfield GI and/or Milspec are much better for the additional bucks.

Maybe Armscor is already aware of the extractor issue and has fixed it. I e-mailed Ivan at Armscor in Nevada and sent him the above picutres. I was the first and only person to contact him about this and he said he would forward my pictures to the plant in the Phillipines.

Link Posted: 3/26/2006 8:42:00 AM EST

Seems most places are getting $400 +/- nowadays.


This just isn't true..... I can throw a rock and find 10 places selling these for low $300. There might be a few of those out there.... but they are the minority.

Link Posted: 3/26/2006 10:38:54 AM EST

Originally Posted By JD8:

Seems most places are getting $400 +/- nowadays.


This just isn't true..... I can throw a rock and find 10 places selling these for low $300. There might be a few of those out there.... but they are the minority.




Yeah, I see these on gunbroker and the 'net for $299 or whatever but at the local shops and/or gunshows they seem to run $359-$379. Even at $300, they are a marginal deal.
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 7:33:45 AM EST
I'm finally getting around to posting a picture of a Springfield breech face. This is a TRP model here. Note that the extractor is low in the breech face like the Kimber photo on page one.

Link Posted: 4/12/2006 4:44:42 PM EST
Beware of those inexpensive (not cheap) 1911 pistols!! They are out there just to get you hooked. Once you get the addiction, it never ends and you will spend a lifetime wanting more!
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 6:08:41 PM EST
Well, I broke down last weekend and just for grins bought a Rock Island 1911. Went out Sunday and ran two boxes of Wolf through it hard and fast. No manfunctions at all, and reasonable accuracy for a gun I havent used.

This is by no means an endorsement of the gun, or a realtime test of its quality or stregnth. That may come with time, but until then I will shoot the crud out of it, but will still depend on my Colt. It was fun and comfortable to shoot, and made for a good day, as shooting always does. Fullclip
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 12:04:39 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/13/2006 8:08:38 AM EST by pistolwretch]
Link Posted: 4/15/2006 4:38:29 PM EST
Just got back from Buffalo Range in Ottawa with the Rock Island 1911 among the guns I shot today. I have had it for a year now and have put approximately 2,000 rounds of everything from Wolf to Remington to Lellier and Bellot.
Today was the first day I had a problem with it.
after about the 80th round the rear plate that holds the firing pin and spring slipped out and the spring launched the firing pin into my nose. Luckily, I found all the pieces and was able to put it back together. I shot a few more rounds through it and noticed that the slide does not return to its original firing position as quickly as it is suppossed to. Almost like the slide is caught on something, then finally gets over it and back into place.
a couple more observations.
Novak mags seem to be the only magazines that work 100% of the time with no problems.
AND I bought a Ceiner .22 conversion kit for this gun and can not get the slide to go into the forward position after firing any rounds of .22. I have to nudge the slide forward with my thumb to get it to cycle through. at first i though that I was not using strong enought .22 ammo but I have tried everything and still have the same problem. Is this a ciener problem, an ammo problem or a RIA problem?
i just bought a Springfield Armory and will use it on the SA next time I go to the range and see if I can eliminate one of the possible causes.
Anyway, thats my 2 cents worth.
Overall, a good gun, but like someone said earlier. It will get you hooked on 1911 and start you on the path to better .45's.
I know that I own several 9mm's and still prefer the 1911.
Joe
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