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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/23/2005 5:24:21 PM EDT
I was wondering what the pros/cons are for grip safetys, as well as a manual external safety.

I was thinking about getting an XD9, but I'm thinking a manual safety would be nice for my first full-sized (opposed to .22) handgun, especially if i start to carry.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 5:32:24 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 6:36:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By VA-gunnut:
A safety is a mechanical device that can fail at any time.


You need to follow proper gun safety if you want to avoid any problems. If you want to carry a pistol (no matter which one you get), just make sure you practice with it and know how to use it properly.



I like having the extra security of an external safety. I have one on my P-22, and the only time i've ever use it is when i'm handing the handgun to another person, or getting it from them, while it is still loaded.

It is always pointed in a safe direction, but I still like the idea of one...

So is the common belief that they are un-necessary, because if you need it, then you have already extremely messed up?
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 6:47:42 PM EDT
Revolvers, Sigs, Glocks & a host of others have no safety other than keeping your finger off the GD trigger.

I wouldn't sweat it too much, personally. If you want a XD & it feels "right" to you, then buy it & learn how to shoot & carry it.

My .o2
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 6:50:19 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 10:23:59 PM EDT
I do not like any external safety on a gun. Not counting the trigger safety like on a Glock. A gun without a external saftey all you have to do is pull the trigger and it will fire. My wife has a gun with a saftey on it and ask if it is on or off all the time. I am getting her a new gun.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 10:43:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By VA-gunnut:
A safety is a mechanical device that can fail at any time.


You need to follow proper gun safety if you want to avoid any problems. If you want to carry a pistol (no matter which one you get), just make sure you practice with it and know how to use it properly.



+1

more parts too.

manual safeties
pros: they give you a sense of security when the gun is not in use
cons: can forget to remove/fail to remove when needed during high stress ( train to prevent)

grip safeties
pros: added safety, easy to disengage when ready to fire
cons: cant think of any ( on 1911s or XDs).....

keep you finger off the trigger until ready to fire!

using a manual safety requires that you know the gun's safety and train with it in order to not forget to engage/disengage it

glocks/XDs only require what other autos require--round in the chamber, proper grip-- and you are ready to shoot
but you have to learn and train too keep your finger off the trigger at all times as well as have a proper trigger guarded holster.....

Link Posted: 8/23/2005 11:47:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ALPHAGHOST:
manual safeties
pros: they give you a sense of security when the gun is not in use
cons: can forget to remove/fail to remove when needed during high stress ( train to prevent)

grip safeties
pros: added safety, easy to disengage when ready to fire
cons: cant think of any ( on 1911s or XDs).....



Agree for the most part., though i con of a grip safety is when you can't maintain a proper firing grip. For instance, if you end up on the ground grappling for the gun.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 3:56:59 AM EDT
External safeties also protect from neligent discharge from those not authorized to use them. Thats one problem with DAO guns that Police Officers, who openly carry and have there gun taken away. Anyone can shoot them with it. Safeties can and have saved lives. It involves training the same way as driving either an automatic transmission or stick shift.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 6:42:01 AM EDT
One advantage of a manual safety if the weapon is going to spend time your vehicle is in case of accident. In a major automobile accident things can get thrown, things can get crushed. A good holster could get pierced by some piece of metal or somehow exit the holster.

Link Posted: 8/24/2005 7:07:44 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 8:18:35 AM EDT
Revolvers have no safety, and noone seems to complain. Is a .38 special inherently dangerous because it has no Safety lever? I don't remember reading about all kinds of dangerous NDs with SAAs either.

The Glock trigger pull is shorter than say a Sig (IMO) so maybe that's the source of concern, but the bottom line is that the way not to ND is not to touch the trigger until you are ready and safe to fire.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 9:08:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Diver:
External safeties also protect from neligent discharge from those not authorized to use them. Thats one problem with DAO guns that Police Officers, who openly carry and have there gun taken away. Anyone can shoot them with it. Safeties can and have saved lives. It involves training the same way as driving either an automatic transmission or stick shift.



+1 I have known several LEOs who were not happy with their department's requirement to carry this type of firearm.


Originally Posted By scrum:
Revolvers have no safety, and noone seems to complain. Is a .38 special inherently dangerous because it has no Safety lever?



It is true revolvers do not have external safeties. I have also known people who carry a revolver with the hammer on an empty chamber because of this.

I prefer an external safety, and my hip carry (Para) and my pocket carry (Beretta) each have one.

All this being said, I did carry a SA XD and did not have serious concerns doing so. I only changed because I recently got the gun I wanted.

To reiterate what others have stated, training and practice are essential, and the first, best, only real safety is your grey matter.

Seydou
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 2:24:42 PM EDT
I think your philosophy and practice of handeling the pistol are more important. I am not knocking manual saftys and if you do not feel comfortable without one then get a pistol with one.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 6:15:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By clubsoda22:

Originally Posted By ALPHAGHOST:
manual safeties
pros: they give you a sense of security when the gun is not in use
cons: can forget to remove/fail to remove when needed during high stress ( train to prevent)

grip safeties
pros: added safety, easy to disengage when ready to fire
cons: cant think of any ( on 1911s or XDs).....



Agree for the most part., though i con of a grip safety is when you can't maintain a proper firing grip. For instance, if you end up on the ground grappling for the gun.



true, not to mention if you limp wrist too much (not on purpose either--injured, etc)
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 8:08:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/24/2005 8:10:56 PM EDT by SRFL]
I prefer a gun with an external manual safety, in part since I love SA semi autos (thanks to owning a Browning BHP as my first handgun). I train with my safety-equipped semi autos constantly, so I'm confident that on the draw stroke the safety is coming off as I'm coming on target (but with my finger away from trigger).....I even train and am comfortable with carrying my slide-mounted safety guns like my Berettas, S&W and HK P9S with the safety engaged.

Of course, a DA semi autos or revolvers don't need one due to the long trigger pull of a DA gun and the Glocks, XD's, Steyrs, etc. of the world don't need them since they have some form of a "safety device" on the trigger itself....but then you have SA semi autos that DO need a manual safety if you intend to carry the gun cocked and subsequently locked.
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 5:36:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/25/2005 5:46:20 AM EDT by Cross_Steel]

Originally Posted By VA-gunnut:

Originally Posted By Cross_Steel:
One advantage of a manual safety if the weapon is going to spend time your vehicle is in case of accident. In a major automobile accident things can get thrown, things can get crushed. A good holster could get pierced by some piece of metal or somehow exit the holster.





If the accident were that bad, I think the gun going off would be the least of your worries.



True but weird things happen in car accidents. The one accident I've been in is when a 'blonde girl late for work' ran a red light and hit me. She was in a Geo Metro I was in a 98 Silverado. She hit me so hard it totaled my truck. Destroyed her Geo, every part of the vehicle was crushed except right where she was. She walked away with a broken nose. I think somebody was watching out for her.

With all that being said, my Glock 22 is still my favorite firearm. It's just reliable and can hit with it every time.
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 9:31:38 PM EDT
The following mainly applies to LEOs and Secuirty folk -

It takes a bad guy an average of 17 SECONDS from the time he steals your sidearm to the time he finds out how to disengage the safety. That is PLENTY of time for you to get out your BUG and double tap him.

Getting your gun taken away from you is a huge concern, training or not. Statistically - if I'm not mistaken - you're more likely to have your gun used on you than you are to have your gun used BY you on someone else. A safety can easily save your life in such situations.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 11:32:29 AM EDT
Grew up on a fodder of 1911's & Hipowers so pistol out/thumb safety off is really
ingrained in me. Had a Glock but never got comfortable with carrying it.
Guess I'm just................old!
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 11:42:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By OBird:
The following mainly applies to LEOs and Secuirty folk -

It takes a bad guy an average of 17 SECONDS from the time he steals your sidearm to the time he finds out how to disengage the safety. That is PLENTY of time for you to get out your BUG and double tap him.

Getting your gun taken away from you is a huge concern, training or not. Statistically - if I'm not mistaken - you're more likely to have your gun used on you than you are to have your gun used BY you on someone else. A safety can easily save your life in such situations.



OBird,
Where did this data come from? Would like to read it if you have a link.

Thanks.

Seydou
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 1:14:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Seydou:

Originally Posted By OBird:
The following mainly applies to LEOs and Secuirty folk -

It takes a bad guy an average of 17 SECONDS from the time he steals your sidearm to the time he finds out how to disengage the safety. That is PLENTY of time for you to get out your BUG and double tap him.

Getting your gun taken away from you is a huge concern, training or not. Statistically - if I'm not mistaken - you're more likely to have your gun used on you than you are to have your gun used BY you on someone else. A safety can easily save your life in such situations.



OBird,
Where did this data come from? Would like to read it if you have a link.

Thanks.

Seydou



I have read the same thing that OBird posted about it taking 17 seconds for someone who steals the officers firearm for disengage the saftey and fire. I read it in one of the gun magazines I get and it would have had to have been within the past 6 months (I think). But yes, the data is valid and it was done by a test not actual data taken off the streets. I think it was in American Handgunner.

As for the question.
Why not have a saftey? If you do not want it on, turn it off, simple as that. WTF is the problem?

I think the people without the safties are feeling bad because they feel as if they are missing a feature. Well, you are missing a feature but as long as you keep the trigger free of obstruction, or do not have your gun taken, or not pull the trigger, you should be alright. If you have a saftey on your gun think of it as a nice little bonus just for you. A saftey just gives you a little more options. It can allow for you to carry your gun with/without the saftey on. A gun without a saftey cannot have the first option, therefore they are less versatle. I do not see how what I just said can be argued.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 2:21:14 PM EDT
I think it is what ever you are comfortable with.. I personally carry an HK USPC with LEM (no safety not even a trigger safety like the glock) and very comfortable with it...
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 2:34:04 PM EDT
Remember that 17 seconds is an average. That means some may have taken less than a second to figure it out and some took 3 minutes. Just hope your bad guy is one of the retarded ones.

My opinion is go with what you feel more comfortable with and practice practice. With practice, disengaging a safety is as natural as pulling it out of the holster. It just happens.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 6:47:50 PM EDT
Thumb safeties allow you to have a lighter and/or more consistant trigger pull. I run a 1911 in IPSC, and i've practiced my draw so many times that disengaging the thumb safety is not a concious action. In a match, I honestly have no recollection of thumbing the safety--it just happens automatically. But for someone who does not have the time or interest of training to make disengaging a safety muscle memory, they are probably better off without one for defensive purposes.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 7:52:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By topgunpilot20:
Thumb safeties allow you to have a lighter and/or more consistant trigger pull. I run a 1911 in IPSC, and i've practiced my draw so many times that disengaging the thumb safety is not a concious action. In a match, I honestly have no recollection of thumbing the safety--it just happens automatically. But for someone who does not have the time or interest of training to make disengaging a safety muscle memory, they are probably better off without one for defensive purposes.




I agree 100%
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 7:58:53 PM EDT
I would still like to read the article/test.

If anyone can reference it for me I would appreciate it.

Thanks.

Seydou
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 8:39:38 PM EDT
I have some with and some without safeties.

I like the no safeties for quick action emergency situations. The safety guns are generally range shooting guns. I like my S&W 39-2 with the external safety and the mag safety.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 10:13:15 PM EDT
I love safeties because I'm a bit 1911/USP/MK23 guy.

Cocked and locked. To me, the former requires the latter, so I prefer a safety.

Link Posted: 8/27/2005 6:41:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/27/2005 6:46:18 AM EDT by Death_006]

Originally Posted By Seydou:
I would still like to read the article/test.

If anyone can reference it for me I would appreciate it.

Thanks.

Seydou



Handgunner; American Handgunner September/October 2005 FMG Publications
Volume 29, Number 177

Page 38
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
SAFER?

Going back to a 1981 study in Police Cheif Magazine that has been replicated several times since with similar results, we find that is takes the average gun-snatcher once to 1.2 seconds to fire a "point gun, pull trigger" pistol or revolver once it's in hand- but approximatley 17 seconds to get off a shot if the unfamiliar handgun has a manual saftey engaged.

We can extrapolate from this that while adding a Cominolli saftey catch to your GLOCK means it may take you a tenth or fifteen-hundreths of a second longer to draw and fire, it'll take a gun snatcher more than fifteen whole seconds to do something lethal with your duty sidearm.

It's your life. Talk with your department about the Cominolli conversion for your issue GLOCK. It works only for right handed officers at this time

""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

There it is. This magazine is a great one with plenty of information contaned within each issue and I highley recomend that you pick it up on your local newstands. On the same page there is further disscussion about how a manual saftey can save your life. In my opinion, if you have a saftey and do not want to add time to your draw time, leave it off. If you don't hanve a saftey then your limiting your choices which in ANYONES opinion is bad thing. A person with a manual saftey has more options than a GLOCK, SIG, or XD without a manual saftey, since a saftey can be disengaged whenver you feel like it, or you can leave it on for added benefit.
Conclusion:
Theres no reason not to have a saftey
Link Posted: 8/28/2005 8:57:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Death_006:

Originally Posted By Seydou:
I would still like to read the article/test.

If anyone can reference it for me I would appreciate it.

Thanks.

Seydou



Handgunner; American Handgunner September/October 2005 FMG Publications
Volume 29, Number 177

Page 38
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
SAFER?

Going back to a 1981 study in Police Cheif Magazine that has been replicated several times since with similar results, we find that is takes the average gun-snatcher once to 1.2 seconds to fire a "point gun, pull trigger" pistol or revolver once it's in hand- but approximatley 17 seconds to get off a shot if the unfamiliar handgun has a manual saftey engaged.

We can extrapolate from this that while adding a Cominolli saftey catch to your GLOCK means it may take you a tenth or fifteen-hundreths of a second longer to draw and fire, it'll take a gun snatcher more than fifteen whole seconds to do something lethal with your duty sidearm.

It's your life. Talk with your department about the Cominolli conversion for your issue GLOCK. It works only for right handed officers at this time

""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

There it is. This magazine is a great one with plenty of information contaned within each issue and I highley recomend that you pick it up on your local newstands. On the same page there is further disscussion about how a manual saftey can save your life. In my opinion, if you have a saftey and do not want to add time to your draw time, leave it off. If you don't hanve a saftey then your limiting your choices which in ANYONES opinion is bad thing. A person with a manual saftey has more options than a GLOCK, SIG, or XD without a manual saftey, since a saftey can be disengaged whenver you feel like it, or you can leave it on for added benefit.
Conclusion:
Theres no reason not to have a saftey



Thanks.

I will pick up this issue to read more. It is good to have this information even if it appears to be regressive analyses and not a "test".

A safety should not add any time to your draw.

Seydou
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