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10/20/2017 1:01:18 AM
9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 9/17/2005 5:02:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/17/2005 5:05:22 PM EDT by ElectricButterknife]
Sup all. I have done some research on what laser or laser/light combo to get for my tac but nothing really sticks out as true quality. Im just asking for some suggestions on the hands down best lasers, laser/light sights on the market.

P.S. If anyone has a pic of their tac or mk23 with a ccf vortex and laser, laser/light site please post. I would love to see what it looks like

Thanks for your help
James
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 6:18:17 PM EDT
No slam intended, but IMO a laser is the biggest waste of money since a Lorcin. They do absolutely nothing to improve your shooting, they're hard to see in daylight, impossible to see in bright daylight, they allow a perp to track you in a smokey environment & while you're following the little dot, you're NOT paying attention to your surroundings!

Did I mention I think they're worthless????
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 10:10:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BobCole:
No slam intended, but IMO a laser is the biggest waste of money since a Lorcin. They do absolutely nothing to improve your shooting, they're hard to see in daylight, impossible to see in bright daylight, they allow a perp to track you in a smokey environment & while you're following the little dot, you're NOT paying attention to your surroundings!

Did I mention I think they're worthless????



I agree about the lasers....to a certain extent. However, I've read several military/law enforcement accounts where the perp suddenly decided it was a good idea to call it a day when he saw a red dot on his chest. Sometimes, it can end a conflict without having to discharge your weapon.
BUT, BobCole is right in many ways. In the end, for the average Joe, I think they just become an expensive addition to the "cool factor". Nothing more.
Lights are another animal though. A Surefire X200 is just like a sore peter, you simply can't beat it. For all things that go bump in the night.....light 'em up with your TacLight.
Link Posted: 9/20/2005 11:05:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/20/2005 11:06:24 AM EDT by olds442tyguy]
I think that money would be better spent on a front bumper and a fender.
Link Posted: 9/22/2005 4:30:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/22/2005 4:32:48 AM EDT by mfingar]

Originally Posted By BobCole:
No slam intended, but IMO a laser is the biggest waste of money since a Lorcin. They do absolutely nothing to improve your shooting, they're hard to see in daylight, impossible to see in bright daylight, they allow a perp to track you in a smokey environment & while you're following the little dot, you're NOT paying attention to your surroundings!

Did I mention I think they're worthless????



I don't know what kind of laser you're talking about...but every one I own is really easy to pick up at any practical shooting distance.

I hate to disagree, but a laser will help a poor marksman identify problems with control and trigger pull, like no other device (without firing a single round). You can really see that laser wiggle around, and teach yourself proper breathing, stance, and pull techniques.

To answer the question,
My Insight LAM has never failed me, but carries a steep price tag. The M-X series looses zero every few hundred rounds. Everything I have from Laser Devices is first-class.



Link Posted: 9/22/2005 9:43:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mfingar:

I hate to disagree, but a laser will help a poor marksman identify problems with control and trigger pull, like no other device (without firing a single round). You can really see that laser wiggle around, and teach yourself proper breathing, stance, and pull techniques.





So will dry firing & watching the front sight. How much cheaper is dry firing over a laser?

And please educate me on how a laser will "teach" anyone anything about their "stance"??????

Link Posted: 9/22/2005 11:17:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BobCole:

Originally Posted By mfingar:

I hate to disagree, but a laser will help a poor marksman identify problems with control and trigger pull, like no other device (without firing a single round). You can really see that laser wiggle around, and teach yourself proper breathing, stance, and pull techniques.





So will dry firing & watching the front sight. How much cheaper is dry firing over a laser?

And please educate me on how a laser will "teach" anyone anything about their "stance"??????





I'm not trying to slap you around, but...

Using a laser while dry firing will show minute deviation with a precise dot (as well as tell-tale signs to a nearby coach). Open sites can be very difficult and too arbitrary to see the same issues, and a coach will need see a printed pattern to obtain evidence of the same deviations. I've seen many shooters become better, soon after using a good laser.

Something as simple as improper foot position can make you a bad marksman. The immediate feedback of a laser is very a important part of clearing up bad shooting posture. I've helped a few people (with years of handgun "experience") sharpen-up their shooting stance. With a laser, poor stance translates into a laser wandering the target. By correcting the stance, you can judge and apply the immediate benefits very quickly. To give an extreme example...stand on one foot and shine a laser pointer on the wall with one hand....then stand on two feet...then hold it with both hands...concentrate on not moving the laser at all. Soon you're talking about getting a laser to hold perfectly still, as you squeeze through the trigger. Most shooters THINK they are good shots (blaming it on ammunition, or even the firearm itself). With most handguns, you should be able to steady the dot on target, pull the trigger, and watch a hole appear where there was a dot.
Link Posted: 9/22/2005 3:47:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/22/2005 3:50:42 PM EDT by Big-Bore]
Ditto what Bob said. Lasers in real life use are about as useless as tits on a boar hog. They are fun toys and I have several, but they are just that in IMO: toys. Lasers will not help you shoot better if you have lousy trigger control and flinch. If you cannot keep the sights on target during the trigger pull the laser sure is not going to help any.

I've read the same stories about lasers on the chest. I call BS. Now, the laser does not paint a line direct from the gun to the chest, so unless the perp looks down at his chest, how the hell is he going to see the dot on his chest? Or forehead? IMO those stories make for good reading but have little real world application. When was the last time when facing down the barrel of a gun did anyone stop and look at their chest? If the muzzle staring you in the face is not a detriment, I doubt a dot on the chest is going to be.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 5:29:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mfingar:


I'm not trying to slap you around, but...
This is arfcom, sir. We're used to it.

Using a laser while dry firing will show minute deviation with a precise dot (as well as tell-tale signs to a nearby coach). Open sites can be very difficult and too arbitrary to see the same issues, and a coach will need see a printed pattern to obtain evidence of the same deviations.
You keep mentioning a "coach". Not all of us, or even very many of us, have a "coach". And anyone who cannot see a front sight moving while dry firing, shouldn't be attempting to own or shoot a gun, IMO.


I've seen many shooters become better, soon after using a good laser.
What a coincidence, I've seen many shooters get better with practice too. What happens when your crew has their laser go out via Mr. Murphy at the worst possible time? Their crutch is taken away & then they have no confidence in their own abilities. Not a good situation.


Something as simple as improper foot position can make you a bad marksman.
Ya think????????


The immediate feedback of a laser is very a important part of clearing up bad shooting posture. I've helped a few people (with years of handgun "experience") sharpen-up their shooting stance. With a laser, poor stance translates into a laser wandering the target. By correcting the stance, you can judge and apply the immediate benefits very quickly. To give an extreme example...stand on one foot and shine a laser pointer on the wall with one hand....then stand on two feet...then hold it with both hands...concentrate on not moving the laser at all. Soon you're talking about getting a laser to hold perfectly still, as you squeeze through the trigger.
One can say the same thing about hitting one's target.


Most shooters THINK they are good shots
You speak for "most shooters", sir?


(blaming it on ammunition, or even the firearm itself). With most handguns, you should be able to steady the dot on target, pull the trigger, and watch a hole appear where there was a dot.
Ditto on watching the front sight instead of watching a laser downrange. Relying on a mechanical device other than the sights of a handgun is a complete receipe for disaster waiting to happen.


Link Posted: 9/23/2005 5:30:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Big-Bore:
IMO those stories make for good reading but have little real world application. When was the last time when facing down the barrel of a gun did anyone stop and look at their chest? If the muzzle staring you in the face is not a detriment, I doubt a dot on the chest is going to be.




Gracias!
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 7:15:03 AM EDT
You're right, lasers are a silly crutch (like a scope, night-sights, or even bench rests). As far as a real-life tactical situation where your life is on the line...I think they're all pretty much a waste of money.

You either have the skills/instinct to put your ammo on target, or you don't. Everything else is just a head-fake that could get you killed.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 12:34:55 PM EDT
I don't think the man was looking for opinions on the unpracticality of lasers, rather than a reccomendation in the event that he was to get one.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 12:36:21 PM EDT
Lasers beams are only useful when mounted on the heads of sharks
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 12:37:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mfingar:
You're right, lasers are a silly crutch (like a scope, night-sights, or even bench rests). As far as a real-life tactical situation where your life is on the line...I think they're all pretty much a waste of money.

You either have the skills/instinct to put your ammo on target, or you don't. Everything else is just a head-fake that could get you killed.



I'm not sure about your take on the uselessness of scopes...or of a good tritium front sight post (I agree with the rear).....but then again there's a reason the AR platform is so modular.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 1:01:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hokie:

Originally Posted By mfingar:
[sarcasm] You're right, lasers are a silly crutch (like a scope, night-sights, or even bench rests). As far as a real-life tactical situation where your life is on the line...I think they're all pretty much a waste of money.

You either have the skills/instinct to put your ammo on target, or you don't. Everything else is just a head-fake that could get you killed.[/sarcasm]



I'm not sure about your take on the uselessness of scopes...or of a good tritium front sight post (I agree with the rear).....but then again there's a reason the AR platform is so modular.



...fixed it
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 2:47:00 PM EDT
I disagree, there may be times where you don't have the luxury of using your sights and a laser would save you here. For instance if you are driving and some road rage lunatic is shooting at you or hell bent on running you off the road, you may need to shoot to the left and a laser would a huge plus here not just for aiming but diffusing the sitation (an no, you don't need to look down to see a laser aimed at you!). And the chances of this happening are certainly much higher than the TEOTWAWKI situations people throw around to justify buying various goodies.

JMHO
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 3:05:39 PM EDT
lasers for the most part are unnecessary. I have a lasermax on one of my handguns and have never needed it, but I have also never needed my handgun. I still carry it though. There are some situations that a laser will give you a slight edge over your adversary, such as shooting from behind cover or in a car. if you have the laser, you do not have to line the gun up with your eye, you put the red dot on target and pull, whether you are looking down the sights or the gun is at your waist.
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