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Posted: 10/18/2003 5:55:55 PM EDT
[#1]
No major mods, IIRC. I'm sure there's someone in here who has a pic or specs. A good Marine knows not to screw too much with a 1911 as john Browning knew what he was doing.
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Posted: 10/18/2003 7:01:18 PM EDT
[#2]
MEU-SOC pistol:
Replacement slide on a GI frame Bar-sto barrel King's ambi-safety and grip safety USMC made fixed hi-vis sights (no tritium) Pachmayr grips Long match trigger Commander hammer GI mainspring housing with lanyard loop Usually fitted with Surefire dedicated lights See this thread: www.1911forum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=975d1b8162933e6c660a499f67316a13&threadid=45697&highlight=MEU+SOC  The new MAR-SOC (Marine Special Operations Command) Det 1 pistol is based on a Kimber Series I, and can be seen here: www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=5&f=31&t=6203&w=myTopicPop  |
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Posted: 10/18/2003 9:29:03 PM EDT
[#3]
I've always wondered why the 1911's have chrome ejection ports.
Is there anyway to switch out a chrome one for a parkerized/blued one? |
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Posted: 10/18/2003 9:34:32 PM EDT
[#4]
Its not chrome. Both guns are equiped with Bar-sto stainless steel barrels.
Most guns if they dont have a stainless barrel, have a blued barrel with the locking hood polished bare metal. |
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Posted: 10/18/2003 10:40:16 PM EDT
[#5]
In the first pic the 'locking hood' is not stainless in color, is this because of being used and worn or just an odd camera/flash angle? On, say a Glock/SIG/etc. what makes the locking hood evil black? Sorry for the newbie like finish questions |
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Posted: 10/18/2003 10:59:48 PM EDT
[#6]
Some of the barrels on the original MEU-SOC pistols appear to have been blackened. They originate at Stainless Bar-sto barrels.
Glocks have their barrel finished in Tenefer, Glocks proprietary finish, SIGs are blued steel with the top polished to bare metal. Thats why they rust so easily. |
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Posted: 10/18/2003 11:42:06 PM EDT
[#7]
I'm curious now too, looking at the pic of the soldier's 1911. Blued? Black Stainless?
Edit for: I'm referring to the ejection port portion color. |
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Posted: 10/18/2003 11:47:12 PM EDT
[#8]
I believe I mentioned the answer above.
Its a blackened stainless steel barrel. ALL of the MEU-SOC pistols have them. |
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Posted: 10/19/2003 6:15:01 AM EDT
[#9]
Thanks Lumpy196, you've pointed me in the right direction. Is their a manufacturer that makes a already built replica?
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Posted: 10/19/2003 12:46:52 PM EDT
[#10]
Not of the original MEU-SOC pistol, but Lightfighter.com is offering a group buy on a Det-1 Kimber.
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Posted: 10/19/2003 1:17:13 PM EDT
[#11]
How close do you consider the Det-1 Limber to be too the original MEU-SOC?
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Posted: 10/19/2003 1:33:38 PM EDT
[#12]
Once again sorry for the newbie finish questions, but how is the barrel blackened? From wear and usage or intentially painted/refinished? I have always wondered why they would take a nice gun and slap some shiny chrome on it to make it stick out. Un-tactical it seems. [edited] Also, I remember some pictures in the past in which Marines were using 10 round mags that extended from the base of the grip. Any solid info on this? ... Wilson mags? |
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Posted: 10/19/2003 1:37:42 PM EDT
[#13]
There is a process for black oxiding stainless.
Robar offers it. They are also the only source for a rear sight that looks like the original MEU-SOC pistol's sight thats made by marine armorers. |
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Posted: 10/19/2003 1:41:20 PM EDT
[#14]
Thank you for all the info Lumpy, I've always taken note of your posts. You truely know your stuff.
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Posted: 10/19/2003 1:53:54 PM EDT
[#15]
Everything I know, I learned from people far more knowledgable than me. Just got to mine the nuggets
 Also, according to Pat Rogers, they've always used Wilson 7 and 8 round magazines, no 10s. |
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Posted: 10/19/2003 9:16:38 PM EDT
[#16]
Edit for: I'm referring to the ejection port portion color. Couldn't tell you, seeing as how that's a MARINE in the photo... My nitpick of the day. 'Rah. |
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Posted: 10/20/2003 8:29:16 PM EDT
[#17]
Does anyone know how tight the military makes there 45's nowadays. Some people say super tight and sand cant get in and others say super loose so it works with sand/dirt. Like the slide to frame fit for example. I have a veteran friend who claims that I should not make my colt 45 any tighter because it would lower the reliability in combat situations, is this true?
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Posted: 10/20/2003 8:54:27 PM EDT
[#18]
Slide to frame fit is not where accuracy is obtained. Accurate 1911's have very tight tolerances in the barrel to hood lockup and the barrel bushing at lockup. The tighter the tolerances the less tolerance for dirt and crud. I would not choose the same 1911 to take into field facing combat that I carry CCW for self defense. Different Tools for different jobs.
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Posted: 10/20/2003 11:22:57 PM EDT
[#19]
Sigh... I just wanted to know which of the two I asked about. I missed the 'appear to be' as the original 'answer'. OK, that was a prick post. Bad day, it's late, I'm cranky, and I'm always right so I'm not going to hit cancel now. lumpy- you always know your shit when someone throws out any question, no offense to the above. I like it when you show off pics of your guns too .Oh, and no offense Brett_Bass. |
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Posted: 10/20/2003 11:37:11 PM EDT
[#21]
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Posted: 10/21/2003 3:00:31 AM EDT
[#22]
Task Force 20, IIRC, is entirely an Army unit.
Have to draw our own conclusions as to who the black helmeted guys with customized 1911s are: 
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Posted: 10/21/2003 4:30:47 AM EDT
[#23]
Shhhh! They don't exist! You will ruin the suprise...
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Posted: 10/21/2003 4:33:19 AM EDT
[#24]
(Anytime you can relate something to a movie you should.  )
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Posted: 10/21/2003 12:29:00 PM EDT
[#25]
I personally like the safety disabled with electrical tape around the grip.
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Posted: 10/21/2003 3:21:38 PM EDT
[#26]
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Posted: 10/21/2003 3:42:19 PM EDT
[#27]
Far more likely to be a band of rubber innertube. Electrical tape doesnt stick for shit, especially in hot temps.
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Posted: 10/21/2003 3:53:59 PM EDT
[#28]
Yup. ironbrigadearmory.com/meusoc.htm  |
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Posted: 10/21/2003 3:55:27 PM EDT
[#29]
Unfortunately, that gun doesnt match up with the original MEU-SOC pistol or the new DET-1 Kimber feature for feature.
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Posted: 10/21/2003 3:58:41 PM EDT
[#30]
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Posted: 10/21/2003 4:11:36 PM EDT
[#31]
It has a black stainless barrel dammit! That makes up for all of the differences. |
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Posted: 10/21/2003 8:19:40 PM EDT
[#32]
Not to pee on the party, but why is such a pistol nessecary? Is there some major problem with the M9 that I'm missing? Let me see..as accurate as a tuned 1911, any armorer can fix it, parts in the supply chain, ammo in the supply chain, accesories in the supply chain, reliable-most tested handgun in history as far as trials are concerned, more capacity. I can understand the better trigger on the 1911 but stopping power with ball ammo is nearly equal. I would also reckon that the 9mm has killed 10 times the people as the 45 has in modern warfare. Could this be a case of well budgeted units using up funds? Why not tuned Berettas? As a taxpayer this really pisses me off.
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Posted: 10/21/2003 8:29:35 PM EDT
[#33]
1. 9mm Ball ammo is notoriously ineffective. Troops have been clamoring for the .45 back.
2. Berettas suck in the desert. Rounds jam in the magazine, even with regular cleaning. You cant predict when your gear is going to get covered in dirt. 3. The 1911 has proven much more reliable in terms of wear than the Beretta. Force Recon has pistols with over 60,000 rounds logged on them. 4. The single action 1911 is much faster reactive pistol than the double action Beretta. The Force-Recon and MAR-SOC units that are using these are the cutting edge of the Marine Corp. Delta uses customized 1911s too. So it bothers you that the first to go in have the best that our tax dollars can buy? |
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Posted: 10/22/2003 10:31:51 AM EDT
[#34]
No major problem with the M9 other than its clunky ergonomics makeing it much less shootable than the 1911.... or at least that’s what I’ve learns through my ’limited experience’ with both. As I recall, one of the greatest factors leading the men that make up the special units to use the 1911 was because they wanted the best shooting pistol with the greatest hit potential when their life is at stake. Even in a SWAT or SF role a pistol is (for the most part) a defensive weapon by nature and, although it does have some potential in an offensive role, it is intended to be used as a last means of defense..... my rifle went down and I need a weapon now, enter the pistol. Given those circumstances a quick handling pistol that has great hit potential and fires an effective round (for a pistol) would be a pretty valuable item.... the 1911 simply fulfills those needs better than the M9. Shoot both and one will quickly see that a 1911 with its slenderness, single action trigger, and low bore axis is simply easier to shoot. Of course one can adapt and learn to shoot an M9 almost as well.... it would just take longer. As for the M9 being “as accurate as a tuned 1911” and the 9mm ball being “nearly equal” to the 230gr 45 ACP.... c’mon, all that is either hogwash or inexperienced dribble. I have never seen nor heard of an issue M9 that would group anywhere near a tuned 1911 at 25yrds or beyond. Not that an M9 isn’t adequately accurate for a combat pistol its just not a bulls-eye gun. And just so you know when it comes to wounding with handgun projectiles the only reliable mechanism (given the same penetration depth) is projectile diameter. Seems kinda’ logical that a .45 caliber projectile would have at least a mild advantage over a .35 caliber projectile. |
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Posted: 10/22/2003 10:59:43 AM EDT
[#35]
With hardball ammo, there is no doubt among serious, experienced users that the .45 is light years ahead of the 9mm shot for shot. Talk to the guys on the ground who do it for real...up close and very personal...and almost to a man they will tell you that the .45 is the better cartridge with FMJ.
I can name you any number of places around the globe where FMJ 9mm is in daily use as a Police round, and again, other than an occassional success here and there, the 9mm FMJ is a miserable failure as an anti personnel round. Not some BS someone printed in a book once upon a time...just cold, hard facts. JHP stuff does even the playing field somewhat, but that is a horse of a different color. Is the .45 worth the trade-off in ammo capacity in comparable sized guns? It is to me...and it seems to also be the case with these operators...who could probably have almost anything they wanted right now. |
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Posted: 10/22/2003 3:32:28 PM EDT
[#36]
However, there is one area where the 9mm has some advantage to the .45 - when shooting at someone wearing a flakvest, especially when using something along the lines of the Swedish m/39B 9mm round (that was developed for the Swedish-K SMG and is labeled by good ol' Uncle Sam as an armor piercing round.) The Swedish army had plenty of m/39B around and when they needed a new sidearm a 9mm was the obvious choice. Guns that were tested (amongst others) were the SIG (that was too pricey in the end,) the Beretta 92F (slide came off due to the pressure,) and the Glock 17. The G17 won (the G19 was also purchased for the airforce) as it could withstand the brute force of the m/39B and the cold weather in Northern Sweden. The SIG passed the tests too, but was too pricey for the limited budget of the Swedish defense. |
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Posted: 10/23/2003 6:54:56 AM EDT
[#37]
As far as M9's not doing well in the desert, I was stationed at 29 Palms for 4 years and while shooting on my regiments pistol team and coaching on the range, I never saw a single problem with a clean pistol. I also carried an M9 in Somalia for five months and never heard of any problems with regard to use in desert conditions. A 1911 tuned for reliability would suffer in the accuracy department I would think. A loose slide and bushing fit to cycle sand isn't conducive to accuracy. As far as I can recall the Evan/Marshall 1 shot stop percentages on ball ammo are relatively close. I'm not taking the stance that a tuned 1911 isn't an effective weapon, I just think it would make more sense to tune the existing M9 and spend the extra money on ammo and range time. If Force or whoever needs a different toy, then why not use the H&K SOCOM which is already in the NSN system with the appropriate support.
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Posted: 10/23/2003 8:47:06 AM EDT
[#38]
The H&K SOCOM still has worse ergonomics than the 1911 (maybe even worse than the M9) and, although very modular and adaptable, is clunky as hell. It’s no wonder to me why there have been a few generations of SEAL Teams to have custom 1911s built for them to take into dangerous places. I think you may need to get your facts straight on what exactly makes a 1911 reliable and accurate. Slide to frame fit has very little to do with the latter but if done right a tightly fit 1911 can be as reliable (and maybe even more reliable) than one that is loose. For what it’s worth, a few years back Vickers did what he referred to as a “sand test” with various side arms including a custom 1911, bone stock 1911, G21, USP, and a few others. One may find is surprising that the tightly fitted 1911 faired better than the plane Jane 1911 due to the fact that one was fit tighter than the other. With the possible exception of the G21, all of the aforementioned guns are all good in their own right and I’m sure the men that have use these guns when it counts are glad they get to make the choice of which one to use. |
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Posted: 10/23/2003 10:50:31 AM EDT
[#39]
Interesting reading: Marine Force Recon Afghanistan after action report.
http://pvtpyle.com/force_recon_in_afghanistan_notes.htm |
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Posted: 10/23/2003 12:55:20 PM EDT
[#40]
Thanks for the link Dinger. Interesting article. Points out very well why they are obtaining new pistols. They shoot A LOT, and the fact is the guns are worn out, some with well over 60K round counts. The Surefire problems have been well noted before. Thats why they are switching to the rail mount, that and the QD ability. Good read. |
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Posted: 10/23/2003 1:50:04 PM EDT
[#41]
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