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9/19/2017 7:27:10 PM
Posted: 1/1/2006 1:10:30 AM EDT
Hey guys. The other day I had someone offer to buy my Springfield XD for $400 bucks, a great price. Reason he will do this is that he is 19 and can't legally buy one from a gunstore. He says that it is perfectly legal for us to make the excahnge, and that the 21 and over rule only applies to purchasing from a retail store. Now he is a police cadet, so I assume he is right. But I want to be sure before I make any LE guys mad at me....thanks as always folks.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 1:39:22 AM EDT
i do not know the answer, but dont do anything until you find out for sure.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 1:54:44 AM EDT
You can not legally sell a handgun to someone in another state. The transfer must be completed by a FFL. He may not be lying, just ignorant of the law.

Here in Indiana, you can legally own a handgun and obtain a CCW at 18 but you must be 21 to purchase a handgun or ammunition.

Makes a lot of sense to me.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 2:11:58 AM EDT
Have you asked that question in your hometown forum?
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 2:22:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By phylodog:
You can not legally sell a handgun to someone in another state. The transfer must be completed by a FFL. He may not be lying, just ignorant of the law.

Here in Indiana, you can legally own a handgun and obtain a CCW at 18 but you must be 21 to purchase a handgun or ammunition.

Makes a lot of sense to me.



this guy lives in the same town as me, here in SE MI. So it would be a local, hand to hand transfer. And I guess I should try the hometown forum.....hate to admit it but I only visit the Ar-15 and Ak-47 forums, and hadn't even noticed the Hometown tab there. Very observant of me......
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 2:41:18 AM EDT
I have absolutely no explaination as to why I assumed that he was from another state. May have had a little too much to drink last night and got up a little too early.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 2:43:00 AM EDT
i thought that it was illegal for anyone under 21 to buy a handgun, regardless from where (FFL or private)

h/w, ownership varies by state (usually 18), and they can be given as 'gifts'

Link Posted: 1/1/2006 3:10:34 AM EDT
IIRC, he's correct. You can legally possess and own a handgun at 18. But cannot legally buy one from a dealer until you're 21.

Don't take my word for it though.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 3:21:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NAM:
IIRC, he's correct. You can legally possess and own a handgun at 18. But cannot legally buy one from a dealer until you're 21.

Don't take my word for it though.


Nams right i purchased a hand gun when i was 18 from a privite party that was 36 ago but i have heard of this being done many times with no problems just make sure hes 18 and get a photo copy of his id to cover your butt
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 4:10:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NAM:
IIRC, he's correct. You can legally possess and own a handgun at 18. But cannot legally buy one from a dealer until you're 21.

Don't take my word for it though.




This is right, when I was 19 and 20 i would give my dad the money for a hand gun i wanted, he would go and buy it then "sell" it to me. and i would go and register it. Its all legal what city do you live in? Go to a local gun shop and ask if you want to double check than just taking some guys word for it that lives in MI and post on some forum.


I am 21 now so it was not that long ago i did it.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 8:21:58 AM EDT
If he shows up with the required purchase permit, it should be OK. Last time I checked, all pistol purchases, even private sales, required a purchase permit from the local sheriff in MI. If he passes the background check and gets issued a permit it will be a legal sale. That's how I bought my first handgun at 18 in MI.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 8:56:13 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 11:10:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MaddMan:

Originally Posted By NAM:
IIRC, he's correct. You can legally possess and own a handgun at 18. But cannot legally buy one from a dealer until you're 21.

Don't take my word for it though.




This is right, when I was 19 and 20 i would give my dad the money for a hand gun i wanted, he would go and buy it then "sell" it to me. and i would go and register it. Its all legal what city do you live in? Go to a local gun shop and ask if you want to double check than just taking some guys word for it that lives in MI and post on some forum.


I am 21 now so it was not that long ago i did it.



Ann Arbor man, liberal dreamland. It sucks. Thanks to everyone, sounds like it is gonna work out. I'll get a copy of his ID and make sure he gets a purchase permit.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 4:44:40 PM EDT
It has to be done throught a FFL anyway you look at it. Bring him to the FFL, its the dealers responsibility to mak e sure its legal.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 4:49:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/1/2006 5:06:24 PM EDT by Dave_A]
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 4:56:47 PM EDT
In Michigan a person can buy a handgun from a private dealer at the age of 18 BUT... the buyer must still have a purchase permit and do all the paper work as if they were 21 and buying from a public dealer.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 5:39:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TARFU:
It has to be done throught a FFL anyway you look at it. Bring him to the FFL, its the dealers responsibility to mak e sure its legal.



Why does it have to be done through an FFL any way you look at it? Even communist Illinois doesn't require an FFL to be involved in a private sale.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 6:03:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TARFU:
It has to be done throught a FFL anyway you look at it. Bring him to the FFL, its the dealers responsibility to mak e sure its legal.



WRONG!
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 7:07:41 PM EDT
I'm no expert but I thought you could just sell a weapon to anyone if you wanted. If not, that really sucks.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 7:12:41 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 7:19:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By David_Hineline:
Just sell it to an adult relative of this young man, if they feel he should have it they can gift it to him.



Why bother? If he can legally get a permit IAW his local laws, he is good to go.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 7:19:37 PM EDT
He needs a purchase permit before you can sell to him (unless he has a CCW), otherwise there are no legal concerns for you. The po-po will make sure he can legally own the gun before they give him a purchase permit (CCW does the same thing). No legal reason for you not to sell. Just keep one copy of the triplicate purchase permit form or a copy of his CCW for your own protection.

Kent (also from the A squared area)
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 7:26:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MaddMan:

Originally Posted By NAM:
IIRC, he's correct. You can legally possess and own a handgun at 18. But cannot legally buy one from a dealer until you're 21.

Don't take my word for it though.




This is right, when I was 19 and 20 i would give my dad the money for a hand gun i wanted, he would go and buy it then "sell" it to me. and i would go and register it. Its all legal what city do you live in? Go to a local gun shop and ask if you want to double check than just taking some guys word for it that lives in MI and post on some forum.


I am 21 now so it was not that long ago i did it.



It seems like that could be called a Federal crime as it would be seen by the Feds as a straw man purchase. Your Dad can buy a gun with the intent of gifting it to you, but he cannot act as a purchasing agent for a person prohibited from buying the gun, which as a 20 year old you were.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 7:30:23 PM EDT
jesus if all this confusion over one simple question isn't enough to make you realize the gun laws in this country are FUBAR then I don't know what is.....

Link Posted: 1/1/2006 7:37:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By texas1138:
jesus if all this confusion over one simple question isn't enough to make you realize the gun laws in this country are FUBAR then I don't know what is.....



+1.

It might be perfectly legal (I really don't know, gray to me) but I wouldn't do it.

Go beyond worrying about criminal liability -- if that kid kills someone with that gun and they trace it back to you, you'll get your ass sued to timbuktu by gun hating lawyers. It'll be another story on the news about how evil guns are and how we should ban them all because irresponsible people sell them to kids who aren't old enough to purchase them at dealers.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 7:46:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FightingHellfish:

Originally Posted By MaddMan:

Originally Posted By NAM:
IIRC, he's correct. You can legally possess and own a handgun at 18. But cannot legally buy one from a dealer until you're 21.

Don't take my word for it though.




This is right, when I was 19 and 20 i would give my dad the money for a hand gun i wanted, he would go and buy it then "sell" it to me. and i would go and register it. Its all legal what city do you live in? Go to a local gun shop and ask if you want to double check than just taking some guys word for it that lives in MI and post on some forum.


I am 21 now so it was not that long ago i did it.



It seems like that could be called a Federal crime as it would be seen by the Feds as a straw man purchase. Your Dad can buy a gun with the intent of gifting it to you, but he cannot act as a purchasing agent for a person prohibited from buying the gun, which as a 20 year old you were.



I think this is a very gray area as far as being "prohibited" from buying a gun. I don't think this would stand up in court as a straw purchase as straw purchase laws are designed to keep guns out of criminal hands. Not the hands of young people that can legally get permits in their state of residence.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 7:48:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ORinTX:

Originally Posted By texas1138:
jesus if all this confusion over one simple question isn't enough to make you realize the gun laws in this country are FUBAR then I don't know what is.....



+1.

It might be perfectly legal (I really don't know, gray to me) but I wouldn't do it.

Go beyond worrying about criminal liability -- if that kid kills someone with that gun and they trace it back to you, you'll get your ass sued to timbuktu by gun hating lawyers. It'll be another story on the news about how evil guns are and how we should ban them all because irresponsible people sell them to kids who aren't old enough to purchase them at dealers.



In that case, none of us should ever sell guns to anybody. You never know if that person you legally sold a gun to is going to turn nutty and kill someone with it. What difference does it make if the kid turns out to be a nut, or if an adult turned out to be a nut? As long as you legally made the sale, their isn't a lawyer that can touch you.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 7:53:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/1/2006 7:56:15 PM EDT by ORinTX]

Originally Posted By H53EXPERT:
In that case, none of us should ever sell guns to anybody. You never know if that person you legally sold a gun to is going to turn nutty and kill someone with it. What difference does it make if the kid turns out to be a nut, or if an adult turned out to be a nut? As long as you legally made the sale, their isn't a lawyer that can touch you.



Um, we're talking about a situation where he sells a gun to someone who he KNOWS is not legally able to buy one at a dealer. Do you see a difference between knowingly selling a gun to someone who can't buy one at a dealer and selling one to someone you don't know this about? I do. You're generalizing, I'm talking about this specific scenario.

You say "as long as he legally made the sale." Is that sale legal? As someone else pointed out, that sounds like it could be interpreted as a straw man purchase. Some say it's legal, some say it might not be. I'm only suggesting he not chance it. That's my advice, you're all free to ignore it and disgregard me as an uninformed idiot.

ETA: I think we all know that lawyers win all sorts of BS judgements all the time. I wouldn't take the risk of selling to a 19 year old.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 7:59:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ORinTX:

Originally Posted By H53EXPERT:
In that case, none of us should ever sell guns to anybody. You never know if that person you legally sold a gun to is going to turn nutty and kill someone with it. What difference does it make if the kid turns out to be a nut, or if an adult turned out to be a nut? As long as you legally made the sale, their isn't a lawyer that can touch you.



Um, we're talking about a situation where he sells a gun to someone who he KNOWS is not legally able to buy one at a dealer. Do you see a difference between knowingly selling a gun to someone who can't buy one at a dealer and selling one to someone you don't know this about? I do. You're generalizing, I'm talking about this specific scenario.

You say "as long as he legally made the sale." Is that sale legal? As someone else pointed out, that sounds like it could be interpreted as a straw man purchase. Some say it's legal, some say it might not be. I'm only suggesting he not chance it. That's my advice, you're all free to ignore it and disgregard me as an uninformed idiot.

ETA: I think we all know that lawyers win all sorts of BS judgements all the time. I wouldn't take the risk of selling to a 19 year old.



We have already determined that this sale can legally be made. All the kid has to do is get a permit from his local PD.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 8:16:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By H53EXPERT:
We have already determined that this sale can legally be made. All the kid has to do is get a permit from his local PD.



I'm not saying it isn't legal. But do you realize that you're talking about state law and I'm talking about a federal law?

In any event, like I said I wouldn't do it because I know the kid isn't able to buy one for himself. As I also said, ignore me.



Link Posted: 1/2/2006 1:16:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ORinTX:

Originally Posted By H53EXPERT:
We have already determined that this sale can legally be made. All the kid has to do is get a permit from his local PD.



I'm not saying it isn't legal. But do you realize that you're talking about state law and I'm talking about a federal law?

In any event, like I said I wouldn't do it because I know the kid isn't able to buy one for himself. As I also said, ignore me.






And the federal law that you're talking about in no way precludes this sale. It applies only to licensees, not to private parties. A private individual who is not a juvenile (read: over the age of 18) is not prohibited by federal law from posessing handguns obtained through private dealings. A federal licensee, however, is prohibited from selling a handgun to them under the age of 21.

If it's legal in your state, it's legal federally. There's no question to it, as the federal law you refer to specifically regulates the behaviour of the licensee, and not that of the purchaser.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 9:10:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mattimeo:
If it's legal in your state, it's legal federally. There's no question to it, as the federal law you refer to specifically regulates the behaviour of the licensee, and not that of the purchaser.



I stand (sit) corrected. I thought federal law made it a crime to knowingly sell a gun to somebody who is unable to purchase one from a dealer, regardless of the reason (criminal history, age, etc.)
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 10:40:06 AM EDT
What you described is COMPLETELY legal in Michigan as long as he has obtained a purchase permit from the county sheriff or PD.

An FFL does NOT need to be involved in a private handgun sale.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 10:41:41 AM EDT
To add, i did the same thing twice when I came across pistols I liked before I was 21.
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