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10/20/2017 1:01:18 AM
9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 9/8/2005 2:38:13 AM EDT
I’m naturally a Rightly.
But I was hitting the silhouette dead on so often that I switched to just using one hand to shoot with.
And then I used my Left hand to shoot a few magazines.

Do ya think I should try shooting with my eyes closed the next time I get overly bored?
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 3:09:01 AM EDT
I think you should try IDPA or IPSC and you'll never go back to shooting at a static range again.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 3:26:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By in_burrito:
I think you should try IDPA or IPSC and you'll never go back to shooting at a static range again.



I agree!

Start off with IDPA then move to USPSA (IPSC) Production, after shooting USPSA Production for the last 5 months even IDPA seems easy to me.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 3:37:53 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 4:22:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By in_burrito:
I think you should try IDPA or IPSC and you'll never go back to shooting at a static range again.



Too many rules and regulations.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 4:40:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By metroplex:

Originally Posted By in_burrito:
I think you should try IDPA or IPSC and you'll never go back to shooting at a static range again.



Too many rules and regulations.



That's one excuse. Let's hear everyone else's.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 5:16:00 AM EDT
Try shooting at a moving plate rack or hogan's alley.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 1:08:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2005 1:17:42 PM EDT by clubsoda22]

Originally Posted By metroplex:

Originally Posted By in_burrito:
I think you should try IDPA or IPSC and you'll never go back to shooting at a static range again.



Too many rules and regulations.



The solution is simple, don't follow the rules and regulations (except the safety rules), take the time penalties and don't give a shit. If you're not going to play a game, be tactically sound and loose.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 8:03:03 PM EDT
Shoot left handed a bit, never know when your gonna get shot in your right arm. Just maybe the adren. will be rushing and you can contenue with the left.


I think it'd be totally awesome to get twin pistols for the range and shoot two at a time... That'd be so bad.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 8:11:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2005 8:13:21 PM EDT by StealthyBlagga]

Originally Posted By in_burrito:

Originally Posted By metroplex:

Originally Posted By in_burrito:
I think you should try IDPA or IPSC and you'll never go back to shooting at a static range again.



Too many rules and regulations.



That's one excuse. Let's hear everyone else's.



+1

Lots of shooters out there like to kid themselves that they are combat-ready dealers of death and have nothing to learn from IPSC shooting "games"... most are just scared to demonstrate how incompetent they really are. Shooting under competition pressure and against the clock is VERY different from plinking at static targets.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 9:03:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2005 9:08:38 PM EDT by clubsoda22]
however if you do it using proper tactics, you generally loose IDPA matches. IDPA is a game, but it's also a great way to hone your skills if when you do it you don't treat it as a game but as a training exercise. Focus less on speed and more on correct tactics like utilization of cover. (having 50% of your body exposed is not correct utilization of cover no matter what the rule book says.

Generally i end the match with a poor time and a shitload of procedural errors, but i would probably be the only one not getting hit if the targets were shooting back.

Here's an article by James Yeager on the subject:


Get the Most from IDPA
By: James Yeager

There are two groups of people who shoot IDPA and I have no problem with either. One group are the “Gamers” who are constantly trying new guns, gear and techniques to make them faster and more likely to win. They are in it purely to win, and they do win, so they are accomplishing their goal. The other group is the “Martial Artists” who are there purely to prepare for violent confrontations. They have no need “win” the match. They feel no sense of failure after they loose because they knew they were going to loose before they got to the range.

This article is aimed (no pun intended) at the beginning Martial Artists or the new guys who don’t know which group they are in, let alone know the difference. If you are trying to “walk the path” I will give you a few tips.

First off shoot the match tactically. You can still move relatively fast but do it in a matter that is tactically sound. You will never win by doing this, because you must move slower, but we are not here for trophies. We are here to be better prepared to use Lethal Force in a confrontation. Use cover as it should be used. Don’t stick your whole body out in the open. Use cover even if it is not required but available.

Most people shoot two shots per target and blaze away at the next one. Mix it up a little by shooting three shots on every target at a match, four at the next, and all headshots at another. On the last target empty your magazine into it. Strive for 100% accuracy going at your personal fastest speed.

Shoot from concealment. Yes the same concealment you actually carry your gun. Yes even if it is hot. The funniest thing I see at matches is a guy with a full size pistol doing really well at the match and take it off and put a .32 Kel-Tec in his pocket because his 1911 (or other full size pistol) is too hard to conceal. This is the same guy who is making fun of my Glock 9mm that I actually carry all of the time. Compete with the gun you carry, and carry a gun you can fight with in a manner that makes it easy to access.

After you shoot the last target the timer is stopped. There is no need to “speed reholster”. That is a terrible thing to teach yourself. After that last round is fired pause and scan your targets. Make up any hits outside the “A” zone.

I hope these tips have shed some light on how to get the most out of an IDPA match. Who knows, you might even win one sometime. If you get bored buy a weak-hand holster and really freak the gamers out! Good luck!

Link Posted: 9/8/2005 9:13:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By clubsoda22:
however if you do it using proper tactics, you generally loose IDPA matches. IDPA is a game, but it's also a great way to hone your skills if when you do it you don't treat it as a game but as a training exercise. Focus less on speed and more on correct utilization of cover. (having 50% of your body exposed is not correct utilization of cover no matter what the rule book says.

For instance, when i shoot around cover my first round generally is scored as a -1, this is because i get my first shot on target before i can see the head. In real life this is sound tactics. If you can see their eyes, they can see you. Better to hit them with a shot to the "B-zone" before they can see you then pie out for the kill shot.

Generally i end the match with a poor time and a shitload of procedural errors, but i would probably be the only one not getting hit if the targets were shooting back.



Where's the BS flag when you need it? I would place a "b" class IPSC shooter against most any combination of armed badguys, and win handily most every time. IDPA was an attempt to un-game IPSC, but in trying to do so, the shooter ended up impossibly mired in the rules. In the real world a competant IPSC shooter would win most every gunfight you put him in. Hiding behind cover in a real gunfight is instinctive, there's no need to be anal about it in a game. Being able to draw and doubletap a target or targets with speed and consistancy I think would be a more valuable skill in a gunfight than knowing when exactly 49% of your center of mass was showing...
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 9:35:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2005 9:37:00 PM EDT by clubsoda22]
Practice it correctly in training and you won't screw it up on the street. Many gamers are excellent shooters but use unsound techniques. Read the article i edited it.

My second paragraph you quoted i edited out because I realized i didn't make the distinction between dynamic and stealth movement and how it pertains to cover. I'm not inclined to go into a lecture on it so i removed it.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 9:56:15 PM EDT
Okay, the next time I'm shooting against metal targets (various sizes, from 6 inch circles to aprox 12 inch squares) I'll try those methods.

One crazy thing, though. I had a difficult time, for a while, of hitting the 12 inch targets with one hand. The 6 inch circles were always one shot, one hit.

I'll let somebody else figure that one out.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 10:03:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GiggleSmith:
Okay, the next time I'm shooting against metal targets (various sizes, from 6 inch circles to aprox 12 inch squares) I'll try those methods.

One crazy thing, though. I had a difficult time, for a while, of hitting the 12 inch targets with one hand. The 6 inch circles were always one shot, one hit.

I'll let somebody else figure that one out.



[Mel Gibson]Aim small - miss small[/Mel Gibson]
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 10:17:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By StealthyBlagga:

Originally Posted By GiggleSmith:
Okay, the next time I'm shooting against metal targets (various sizes, from 6 inch circles to aprox 12 inch squares) I'll try those methods.

One crazy thing, though. I had a difficult time, for a while, of hitting the 12 inch targets with one hand. The 6 inch circles were always one shot, one hit.

I'll let somebody else figure that one out.



[Mel Gibson]Aim small - miss small[/Mel Gibson]



That's pretty much it, you're paying attention on the smaller targets and rushing your shots on the bigger ones. I bet if you spraypainted a dot in the middle of the 12" target you'd ring it every time.
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 3:53:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By in_burrito:
I think you should try IDPA or IPSC and you'll never go back to shooting at a static range again.



Double Dog Ditto

Give it 4 or 5 tries and see if you don't learn something about yourself.
Link Posted: 9/10/2005 5:10:35 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/10/2005 7:33:43 AM EDT
I think some people need to take a force on force class and get some time with simunitions. You'll realize very quickly how easy it is to get killed if you're not doing a lot more than simply making hits fast. You have to be moving fast, getting to cover fast and using that cover effectively.

Handguns aren't death rays. Most of the time people shot can still shoot back. Affirmative action must be taken to protect yourself from shit coming the other way. If you have never fired a gun and made hits in a full out sprint for cover, you need to learn how to.
Link Posted: 9/10/2005 10:24:17 AM EDT
I love how this topic quickly evolved from a guy getting bored on the range to a referrendum on gaming versus training.

I disagree with the idea that there are two kinds of IDPA shooters. Yes, there are gamers and martial artists, but some of us are both. I'm a competitive SOB and I like to win. Unfortunately, I am not good enough to beat the top shooters at my club and that frustrates me sometimes. I can look critically at my performance and nod in approval, knowing I shot to the top of my abilities and when the scores come out, I'm smack in the middle of the pack. So in that respect, I am a gamer.

Here's the martial art part of it. I look at my equipment and practices in the game and figure out if there is anything I should be doing on the street. As a result, I use kydex holsters for CCW whenever I can. I don't use retention holsters and will only IWB if absolutely required by wardrobe. I pay more attention to my cover shirt when CCW. I pay more attention to distances of people on the street, including making desicions about tactical order. I always carry spare ammo now. I pay more attention to what works on the range and figure out how to adapt it to real world use. In short, I try to order my world to match the way I game, not the other way around.
Link Posted: 9/10/2005 11:38:26 AM EDT
Cliff it's good that IDPA helped you improve your equipment choices, but equipment pales in importance when compared to tactics. You can be both a gamer and a martial artist, but not both at the same time.

I'm not gonna get into tactical sequence or what i think of "everyone gets one before anyone gets two" school of thought.
Link Posted: 9/10/2005 11:58:34 AM EDT
I agree that IDPA doesn't do anything for situational awareness, but it does at least force you to pie the corner and take targets in order of threat. One still has to think about tactics on mobile targets and that is something you can't get from IDPA. IDPA isn't without limits, but I think most folks are smart enough to recognize those limits. That doesn't mean its without benefit though. Use the game to improve your shooting skills. Use those shooting skills, along with a high degree of situational awareness to improve your tactics.
Link Posted: 9/10/2005 1:01:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/10/2005 1:06:13 PM EDT by clubsoda22]
situational awareness is your mindset.

Skill comes from practice which IDPA does rather well.

The combination of shooting skill and a good mindset, while being important, does not equal good tactics.


Originally Posted By cliffy109:
it does at least force you to pie the corner and take targets in order of threat.



Lets get that right. It requires you to keep at least half your body behind cover and lean out to engage your targets. It requires you to put a certain number of holes in a certain number of targets in a certain order.

Let's not confuse procedural rules with tactics.
Link Posted: 9/10/2005 1:10:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By clubsoda22:

Let's not confuse procedural rules with tactics.



No confusion here. Just trying to point out that some folks get so uppity over what IDPA doesn't do, that they forget what it can do if you approach it right. That doesn't mean you have to be "tactical man" on the course either. Some procedural rules enforce proper tactics and others don't. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to recognize the difference.
Link Posted: 9/10/2005 1:18:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cliffy109:

Originally Posted By clubsoda22:

Let's not confuse procedural rules with tactics.



No confusion here. Just trying to point out that some folks get so uppity over what IDPA doesn't do, that they forget what it can do if you approach it right. That doesn't mean you have to be "tactical man" on the course either. Some procedural rules enforce proper tactics and others don't. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to recognize the difference.



IDPA does everyting you need it to do if you're willing to loose time and take penalties to do it right. Realizing that what you're doing isn't tactically sound while doing it is not the same as doing it the right way. Play the game or train, you can't have it both ways. Mixing training with play time is a recipie for disaster.
Link Posted: 9/10/2005 2:39:41 PM EDT

Realizing that what you're doing isn't tactically sound while doing it is not the same as doing it the right way. Play the game or train, you can't have it both ways. Mixing training with play time is a recipie for disaster.


I've been shooting USPSA matches this summer, and while there aren't any sound tactics involved, the big benefit has been that it's allowed me to become more comfortable with drawing, firing, reloading, and otherwise manipulating a pistol with a little extra stress added than you can get during normal practice. Beyond that, it's just downright fun. Marksmanship and weapons handling, +1, tactically sound engagement techniques, -1.

--Josh
Link Posted: 9/10/2005 3:18:11 PM EDT
that's an excellent reason to do it. Just make sure before you do it you mentally tell yourself you are playing a game, and when you go to do serious work mentally tell yourself that.
Link Posted: 9/10/2005 6:36:08 PM EDT
This topic always reminds me of one of my favorite lines from Matt Burkett. And yes I'm paraphrasing.

An untrained shooter facing a lethal threat has big trouble. A tactically trained shooter has a problem to solve. A sport shooter has a stage.

Can't help but grin when I think of it.
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