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Posted: 11/22/2007 7:36:39 AM EDT
When I put my carry pistol in the safe for the night I remove the round and put it second in the mag. But as we all know everytime the round is removed it damages the rim.

In a house gun or your carry peice how long can you keep a round in the chamber before it deforms or is it fine in the chamber till the weekly cleaning?

Link Posted: 11/22/2007 8:04:38 AM EDT
Do you mean how many times can you chamber the round?

Once its in there, you can leave it as long as you like.
Link Posted: 11/22/2007 8:10:19 AM EDT
you can keep the chamber loaded up untill you pull the trigger.
Link Posted: 11/22/2007 8:10:29 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/22/2007 8:20:05 AM EDT
The_Beer_Slayer is right.
i have pulled stuck rounds out of guns that had been left for very long times.
it's all about heat, humidity and lubrication.
i would say that 2-5 years would be about max for a cartridge before it begins to corrode.
the gun will be fine once clean but nonfunctional until you clean it.
Link Posted: 11/22/2007 8:25:38 AM EDT
I would worry more about bullet setback than unchambering.

Why do you not leave it holstered and loaded when you put it in the safe? Being locked up in a safe kind'a makes loaded/unloaded a moot point, now doesn't it? Just give it a press check when you pull it out again and everything should be right with the world.
Link Posted: 11/22/2007 8:29:57 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/22/2007 8:55:35 AM EDT
I do press checks everytime I holster my pistol. I just check to see if its chambered and don't fully release the slide but let it slide back in gently.

I don't believe this effects OAL though.
Link Posted: 11/22/2007 9:14:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By stgdz:
I do press checks everytime I holster my pistol. I just check to see if its chambered and don't fully release the slide but let it slide back in gently.

I don't believe this effects OAL though.


Correct - setback comes into play as the round is pushed out of the magazine and the bullet hits the feed ramps. Nothing touches the bullet in a press check
Link Posted: 11/22/2007 9:15:37 AM EDT
Unless you enjoy playing with your gun, there's no need to manipulate the mechanism at all before sticking it in the safe each night.
The more you manipulate a loaded pistol, the more you risk an accident.
Also no need to clean it weekly, unless you're carrying it in sand or salt, or shooting it weekly.
Denis
Link Posted: 11/22/2007 9:24:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DPris:
Unless you enjoy playing with your gun, there's no need to manipulate the mechanism at all before sticking it in the safe each night.
The more you manipulate a loaded pistol, the more you risk an accident.
Also no need to clean it weekly, unless you're carrying it in sand or salt, or shooting it weekly.
Denis


So no dry fire practice for you?
Link Posted: 11/22/2007 10:18:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:

Originally Posted By Marksman14:
Do you mean how many times can you chamber the round?

Once its in there, you can leave it as long as you like.


not entirely true.

i have seen a few with rounds left in them 10+ years that had the bullet jacket corrded to the point it welded itself inside the chamber


Any idea what the conditions of storage were? I can't imagine that happening on a firearm that is properly maintained.
Link Posted: 11/22/2007 6:31:42 PM EDT
MTN,
Dryfire is not what was expressed by either the original post or my response..
Going strictly on the statement he made, he does his "unloading" routine each night before locking the pistol up. That inference is what my response was directed to. I did not take that to mean there's dryfire involved every night before the pistol goes in the safe.
Obviously, occasional dryfire involves unloading the gun.
Denis
Link Posted: 11/23/2007 5:29:02 AM EDT
I think I have a gun or two going on 2/3+ years with a chambered round, I will have to check them to see if they are ok.
BTW, I would think a light coat of oil would help prevent any sort of galvanic corrosion. If not, how about some lacquered steel case ammo?
Link Posted: 11/23/2007 7:37:14 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/23/2007 7:52:02 AM EDT
I always thought case set back came from hitting feed ramp and sitting in chamber moving around alot but I guess I saved a few steps now.
Link Posted: 11/23/2007 8:44:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/23/2007 1:03:49 PM EDT by DPris]
Min,
Case setback does come from hitting the feedramp repeatedly. Sitting in the chamber is not harmful in general, as long as it's not for years at a time under certain conditions previously mentioned. "...moving around alot" in the chamber has nothing to do with anything.
Why do you unload every night before locking the pistol up?
Denis

Edited to read- BULLET setback, not case setback.
Link Posted: 11/23/2007 12:04:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DPris:
Unless you enjoy playing with your gun, there's no need to manipulate the mechanism at all before sticking it in the safe each night.
The more you manipulate a loaded pistol, the more you risk an accident.
Also no need to clean it weekly, unless you're carrying it in sand or salt, or shooting it weekly.
Denis


+1 Leave it the hell alone for at least 6 months to a year, unless you live somewhere with an awful climate like Houston. Why would you remove the round from the chamber every night if it goes in the safe??? That's a ritual you should shit-can, IMO.

Only remove the chambered round when there is a need to clean, and leave it alone at all other times unless there is a need to shoot.
Link Posted: 11/23/2007 12:27:37 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/23/2007 7:17:11 PM EDT
I ran into the corrosion on the jacket a while back in one of my guide guns I leave at the family homestead, the gun is shot rarley but carried often, it is exposed to condensation due to some nasty temperatures. I thought this was due to a reaction where the jacket (copper) meets the brass but it is my understanding this can also happen with lead bullets. I think this reaction happens when residual chemicals react with the brass at the edge of the neck and I think the moisture (from condensate) and too much oil mixed with the cleaning solvent starts it. I think this is the beginning of a rust ring which I have seen destroy the value of many very nice pre 64 Win Model 70s. When I clean a bore I don't leave a heavy oil film if there will be a round chambered, I just run a lightly oiled (almost dry) rag thru the chamber and bore. I check it once or twice a year but it seems as if the problem was solved.
Link Posted: 11/24/2007 9:09:28 AM EDT
to answer everyones questions,

I clean my CCW every week because I shoot it every week as well as the others .

Im not one of those afraid to have a chambered Firearm, I just have been cautious only so I didnt damage the round so I know it will go off on the first shot.

and I used to unload my carry peice to make sure the "bullet didnt set back in the case like an instructor had told me a while back leaving it chambered to long" but if the general consensous is that this statement was false.

Ill experiment with the Idea again, as I did with the "you can leave your magazines loaded for years without hurting them" which I found to be true but with only one set back I found out the hard way was with leaving a fully loaded mag inserted in the pistol.

I left a wilson combat mag in my colt for a month and the spring wouldnt bounce back but I took it out shot with it and it still didnt cause a jam, it began working as intended by the end of the range trip and still works.



Link Posted: 11/24/2007 11:59:24 AM EDT
Min,
If you shoot the thing weekly, then by all means clean it weekly.
My responses here are the result of several posts I've seen by people who either really don't know what they're doing with handguns, or by people who just enjoy playing with them, or a combination of both.
If you don't fit either category, that's great.

You've gotten bad info, apparently, from previous sources.
In constantly loading and unloading an auto pistol you'll do far more "damage" to the same rounds (if used repeatedly) than you could by leaving the same round chambered for extended periods of time. And, that's in addition to the greatly multiplied risk factor of an accidental discharge no matter how careful you are.
I'm totally baffled on how leaving a round chambered can ever cause bullet setback into the case. There are simply no forces that act on that bullet from the front to push it deeper into the case while it's just sitting in the chamber. I can't imagine how your instructor could think it would, if he knew anything at all about guns.

Conversely, repeatedly chambering the same round can & most likely will eventually cause bullet setback; with definite impact forces (however small, they CAN be cumulative) on the bullet nose as it hits the feedramp on chambering. The damage to the case rim you mentioned previously is a very slight factor in constantly loading & unloading the same rounds. Lots of handloaders will re-cycle auto pistol brass till it splits, and the case rim remains usable through several loadings.

Could it be possible that you misunderstood your instructor? Could he have told you not to do this chambering & unloading too many times with the same cartridge, as opposed to not leaving the same round chambered for too long?

And, regarding your mag springs- I have Wilson mags that have been left fully loaded for up to two years & they still function fine. This year I replaced the springs on two Glock 26 mags that had been left fully loaded for three years. They had not shortened enough to be bothersome in reliability, I just figured what-the-hell. I don't like to wait till things fail on serious guns.

There is no mechanical need to unload your carry pistol every night, if you're just going to lock it up securely anyway.
Why do you feel it necessary to "experiment" with the "Idea" of leaving a round in the chamber? I'm very curious about how you think that round can cause its own bullet to set back in its case while sitting overnight in the safe if left loaded. And/or how you figure that can happen at all with no external forces acting on the bullet to seat it deeper.
You've got me totally mystified on this reasoning. Not trying to dump on you unduly, I just can't follow the rationale here.

Denis
Link Posted: 11/24/2007 3:44:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DPris:
Min,
If you shoot the thing weekly, then by all means clean it weekly.
My responses here are the result of several posts I've seen by people who either really don't know what they're doing with handguns, or by people who just enjoy playing with them, or a combination of both.
If you don't fit either category, that's great.


You've gotten bad info, apparently, from previous sources.
In constantly loading and unloading an auto pistol you'll do far more "damage" to the same rounds (if used repeatedly) than you could by leaving the same round chambered for extended periods of time. And, that's in addition to the greatly multiplied risk factor of an accidental discharge no matter how careful you are.
I'm totally baffled on how leaving a round chambered can ever cause bullet setback into the case. There are simply no forces that act on that bullet from the front to push it deeper into the case while it's just sitting in the chamber. I can't imagine how your instructor could think it would, if he knew anything at all about guns.

Conversely, repeatedly chambering the same round can & most likely will eventually cause bullet setback; with definite impact forces (however small, they CAN be cumulative) on the bullet nose as it hits the feedramp on chambering. The damage to the case rim you mentioned previously is a very slight factor in constantly loading & unloading the same rounds. Lots of handloaders will re-cycle auto pistol brass till it splits, and the case rim remains usable through several loadings.

Could it be possible that you misunderstood your instructor? Could he have told you not to do this chambering & unloading too many times with the same cartridge, as opposed to not leaving the same round chambered for too long?

And, regarding your mag springs- I have Wilson mags that have been left fully loaded for up to two years & they still function fine. This year I replaced the springs on two Glock 26 mags that had been left fully loaded for three years. They had not shortened enough to be bothersome in reliability, I just figured what-the-hell. I don't like to wait till things fail on serious guns.

There is no mechanical need to unload your carry pistol every night, if you're just going to lock it up securely anyway.
Why do you feel it necessary to "experiment" with the "Idea" of leaving a round in the chamber? I'm very curious about how you think that round can cause its own bullet to set back in its case while sitting overnight in the safe if left loaded. And/or how you figure that can happen at all with no external forces acting on the bullet to seat it deeper.
You've got me totally mystified on this reasoning. Not trying to dump on you unduly, I just can't follow the rationale here.

Denis


+1 Applies to my comments as well. I don't hardly ever shoot my carry piece because I have two just like it that get all the wearing out at the range.
Link Posted: 11/25/2007 9:09:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/25/2007 9:11:02 PM EDT by Minator556]
On the subject of bullet setback in the chamber im experimenting with how I function with having it loaded all the time and only removing the mag at night, so far I havent had any problems fears, paranoia etc..

I m not still holding to the opinion of it setting back, I didnt misunderstand him he also said not to keep your mags loaded as we walked out the door but then again he was a retired DPS officer who carried a .357 Smith his entire career so his auto experience would be questionable. Also he was trying to sell us Glaser safety slugs for the gunshop we were at because "if he knew how much his .357 penetrated he wouldnt have carried it".

Link Posted: 11/25/2007 9:39:58 PM EDT


Unless you enjoy playing with your gun, there's no need to manipulate the mechanism at all before sticking it in the safe each night.


In the safe, I leave all my SA firearms in condition 2 (not chambered) in case of a house fire. A round in the chamber will cook off, cycling the weapon and preparing for another cook-off, etc. until the mag is empty.
Link Posted: 11/25/2007 10:05:32 PM EDT
Min,
I'm still not following.
Why do you feel such a need to be doing unnecessary things with that pistol? Why remove the magazine to lock the gun in the safe?
What's wrong, in your mind, with just taking the pistol out of your holster, or off the nightstand, or off the closet shelf, or wherever it's kept just before its nightly lockup, and placing it in the safe as is? In the morning, it comes out ready to be holstered without any other motions done to it at all.
Honest, simplest is usually best here. :)

I base that on the number of accidental discharges I've been involved with over the years. Again- the more you fiddle with a loaded gun, the more chances it has to go off.
At least you hopefully understand now about the loaded chamber question.

Good luck.
Denis
Link Posted: 11/25/2007 10:08:25 PM EDT
Frank,
There are so many things wrong with that theory....
At least you're hopefully not loading & unloading the things constantly.
Denis
Link Posted: 11/26/2007 8:43:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/26/2007 10:04:17 AM EDT by KCMojo]
I have 2 S&W .40 mags that have been filled for most of 10 years now. The function is flawless. Thinking about making these range mags and purchasing new.

2 Ruger 9mm mags for 2-3 years now. Can't tell them apart from the other 2 range mags that are newer and stay empty. all factory and all cycle flawless.

If good mag I don't think leaving them loaded is the issue. From my reading and understanding of metal fatigue, on good springs, constant cycling causes more wear than constant load.


Originally Posted By FrankSymptoms:

Unless you enjoy playing with your gun, there's no need to manipulate the mechanism at all before sticking it in the safe each night.


In the safe, I leave all my SA firearms in condition 2 (not chambered) in case of a house fire. A round in the chamber will cook off, cycling the weapon and preparing for another cook-off, etc. until the mag is empty.


That would be an interesting torture test for G&A TV or Mythbusters. Safety off sounds like with some pistols, this could be possible tho not probable.

I would think a heavy 22. would have a better chance of this. A heavier recoil pistol might jump and jam. Like limp wristing. Position would be critical. Ejection port could be covered preventing the spent round clearing the chamber, preventing a new round to chamber. Etc.

In a good safe I would still be more scared of the rounds sitting next to it. In a stack-on cabinet however, yesh. I would not stand next to either while rounds (could) cook off in it. Yet the fire is danger #2. Smoke #1.

Would be cool to see it tested.
Link Posted: 11/26/2007 10:40:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DPris:
Min,
I'm still not following.
Why do you feel such a need to be doing unnecessary things with that pistol? Why remove the magazine to lock the gun in the safe?
What's wrong, in your mind, with just taking the pistol out of your holster, or off the nightstand, or off the closet shelf, or wherever it's kept just before its nightly lockup, and placing it in the safe as is? In the morning, it comes out ready to be holstered without any other motions done to it at all.
Honest, simplest is usually best here. :)

I base that on the number of accidental discharges I've been involved with over the years. Again- the more you fiddle with a loaded gun, the more chances it has to go off.
At least you hopefully understand now about the loaded chamber question.

Good luck.
Denis


Im not removing it from its holster just the magazine each night due to prior expereince of having a fully loaded mag inserted in the firearm weaken due to the extra force of the top round pushing down even further on the spring (even if it was just for awhile until it was cycled through in live fire a few times) so since I have several loaded back ups at home my daily carry gets its mag removed regardless.
Link Posted: 11/26/2007 4:17:24 PM EDT
Min,
You're just one of those that has to complicate your pistol no matter what.
In over 25 years of carrying various autopistols daily, at work & on my own time, working with others who did the same, and exposure to a bundle of autos, I have never had a single problem with any pistol's feeding or magazine spring caused by leaving a fully loaded mag inserted for weeks or months at a time.
Leaving the mag in the gun won't hurt anything. Shooting large numbers of rounds through it will wear the spring more than leaving the mag loaded & in the pistol. Replace every 1-3 thousand rounds, rotate your mags every six months or so, and keep 'em clean inside, you should be fine.

Looks like you may be way over-analysing this process.
On the occurance of the mag spring weakening that you cite, was there a problem in cycling? Did the pistol malfunction? Did it not feed?
What do you base your finding of a weakened mag spring on?
What brand & caliber was that magazine? How old was it? How long had it been sitting fully loaded? Has the perceived problem repeated? Have you experienced any/other failures in cycling your pistol with magazines left loaded & inserted? What is the exact pistol you had this problem with?

Every maker puts out a lemon now & then, and that includes springs. But, a good quality spring in a good quality magazine should not take a set to the point of malfunction by being left loaded & in place in a pistol for far longer than the very short time frames that you're talking about if you shoot the gun every week.

Denis
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 8:33:51 AM EDT
On the occurance of the mag spring weakening that you cite, was there a problem in cycling? Did the pistol malfunction? Did it not feed?

No problem in cycling or feeding but the spring stopped pushing the follower all the way to the top and I fired it in rapid fire a couple of times and the spring was back to normal,

What do you base your finding of a weakened mag spring on?

it stopped halfway to the top leaveing the last 3 rounds about an inch low of the top

What brand & caliber was that magazine? How old was it? How long had it been sitting fully loaded?

Wilson Combat .45 I beleive a 47d, ordered it from the factory, 1 month
Has the perceived problem repeated? nope because I cyle all of my mags now

What is the exact pistol you had this problem with? Colt gold cup and a taurus PT1911
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 10:17:27 AM EDT
Min,
You're certainly entitled to do whatever you want with your own property, but I'd suggest that you're making far more work for yourself than you need to.
The "failure" you describe is much likelier to be a new magazine that needed to wear in, or a dirty one (depending on how many rounds you'd run through it at that point) than a weakness in the spring caused by sitting fully loaded in your pistol for a month or less.

Magazines are mechanical objects like any other device that has movable parts, and some do sneak out of the factory in less than perfect shape.
Your description sounds to me like either a defective follower or body, or just a new mag that needed to work in. I have Wilson mags that have sat in a couple 1911s for well over a year now, fully loaded, and they function perfectly.

I'd suggest that your lone incident problem was not caused by sitting in a pistol loaded, certainly not for the extremely short period you mention (unless that mag has a defective spring, which is always a possibility), and you can keep going to all this extra effort if you want to, but you don't need to.

Min,
Look at the big picture, think of the original intended purpose of the 1911 pistol. It was a war machine. The system was built to take hard use, neglect, and lousy working conditions. It achieved an excellent reputation for going through all that, and still functioning. It was not babied, it didn't get unloaded every night in combat & it didn't get its mags cycled weekly. It's carried by thousands of people today, with a number of different magazines, and it is not routinely emptied each night, each week, or each month. It sits on nightstands and in drawers, fully loaded, for months at a time in houses all across the country. Again, bad springs can happen, but I am just not hearing or seeing instances where leaving the pistols loaded causes malfunctions, and that includes the very popular Wilson mags.

Little confused on your statement that the mag caused no functional problems in either pistol, but stopped pushing the follower all the way to the top. If that happened outside the pistol and didn't repeat when actually used in those guns or since, I don't see it as a valid conclusion that leaving the loaded mag in a pistol caused spring fatigue. Once a spring does fatigue, it stays fatigued, and doesn't recover strength on its own.

I'd say your perceived problem was an isolated incident peculiar to that individual magazine, whether a bad spring, a follower that needed to break in, or a dirty mag. I don't see it resulting from leaving the pistol loaded.

You might, if you're interested in resolving the issue objectively, put a Wilson mag ( one that you've previously determined to be reliable) fully loaded with chambered round in one of your 1911s and let it sit for a couple months somewhere without touching it. Give it two or three months, then take the pistol as is out (don't remove the mag for travel, don't unload the pistol in any way, just take it directly from safe to range as it sat) & see if it fires everything on board without malfunction.

I'd be very surprised to hear you come back & say the pistol did not cycle perfectly, assuming it & mag were both clean & functional to start with.

One other thing you might try is downloading your Wilsons by one round, if you're using the 8-rounders. That doesn't bottom out the mag spring quite like loading with a full 8.

Denis
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 11:27:27 AM EDT
Thanks for the advice Ill begin testing it again I marked the orignal mag that the issue ocurred in.

The mag was clean so it most likely needed to be broken in because it still functions.

The mag acted as stated but it was odd to me also that it still functioned manipulating it by had but when working it through the actual firearm there was no malfunction.
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 1:41:16 PM EDT
What it does in the pistol is the real test.
It's even possible it could have been a cartridge issue, but I doubt it.
When a spring loses tension (ability to store energy) due to over compression, prolonged compression, extended cycling/use, poor metalurgy, excessive heat, or just what people call metal fatigue, it doesn't regain that ability & doesn't get its "spring" back miraculously.
It can't go "weak" today & return to "strong" again tomorrow.
There was something else going on in that mag, my guess is that the follower was binding for some reason.
Good luck.
Denis
Link Posted: 12/3/2007 10:34:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GaryM:
I think I have a gun or two going on 2/3+ years with a chambered round, I will have to check them to see if they are ok.
BTW, I would think a light coat of oil would help prevent any sort of galvanic corrosion. If not, how about some lacquered steel case ammo?


Oil in the chamber or on the case is a no no,oil will kill the primer and can cause a case to swell till it will not (un-swell)quick enough and you will get the extractor just pulling past the shell (or pulling the case-head off) bad Idea.

Bob
Link Posted: 12/3/2007 11:48:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/4/2007 11:27:38 PM EDT by JaxxKat]
maybe you gotta gets a revolver , daa good.. dont got springs n mags n stuff..

wit dem wheel irons u can just flip it open and give it a spin , snap it shut and practice that quick draw..
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 6:17:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/4/2007 6:21:26 AM EDT by GaryM]

Originally Posted By bobbyjack:

Originally Posted By GaryM:
I think I have a gun or two going on 2/3+ years with a chambered round, I will have to check them to see if they are ok.
BTW, I would think a light coat of oil would help prevent any sort of galvanic corrosion. If not, how about some lacquered steel case ammo?


Oil in the chamber or on the case is a no no,oil will kill the primer and can cause a case to swell till it will not (un-swell)quick enough and you will get the extractor just pulling past the shell (or pulling the case-head off) bad Idea.

Bob

Not if you are using sealed ammo (mil-spec or seal it yourself) As for oil on the case, well, some weapons thrive on it not to mention fluted chambers like HK uses.
Also I am not talking about soaking the weapon, just a light coat. There is a difference between bone dry (clean you rifle with brake cleaner or soapy water) and lightly oiled. Actually that is what parkerizing is for, a surface applied specifically to retain a light oil coating.
But the choice is yours, do what you think is best.
Yes, I know. Chambers are not parked and do not retain oil like the outer finish does but still you get the idea.
Anyone remember Garands first try ( I think it was JC Garand), the .mil rejected it because it required lubed cases. Lubed cases were a no no for the .mil not because any lube issues per say but rahter that the cases would pick up dirt/debris and possibly jam up anything they might be fired in.
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