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10/20/2017 1:01:18 AM
9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/30/2005 5:57:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/30/2005 5:59:37 PM EDT by Michael_Courtney]
I shot a groundhog in a large bin of shelled corn yesterday with the Federal Premium 125 grain JHP Personal Defense load in .357 Sig. This load is designed to expand reliably, penetrate over 12" , hold on to its jacket and retain most of its weight. The bullet usually penetrates completely on every living thing I've shot with it (deer, racoons, groundhogs, etc.), and the unusual angle on the groundhog had the bullet penetrating a good 8" of groundhog. The bullet was easily recovered in the shelled corn behind the woodchuck, but I was suprised to see the jacket had been shed.

Now, this bullet has always performed well for me, and I don't really regard shedding the jacket as a performance failure, because this load just kills critters very effectively. I've never had a deer go over 50 yards when shot with it. In some ways I think that losing the bullet jacket can increase a bullet's effectiveness. In addition, I've found this load to be very accurate and to feed reliably in both my Sig P229s.

On the other hand, this evidence for shedding of the jacket does point to important differences between how the bullet performs in gelatin (it never loses its jacket) and what a bullet really does in living tissue.

Michael Courtney
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 6:12:00 PM EDT
Hydra-Shoks will shed the jacket from time to time. The round's design is over 25 years old.

If you wish full retention, try the HST... if you are shooting game, a better round is the "Fusion" from Federal.
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 8:39:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FedGunner:
Hydra-Shoks will shed the jacket from time to time. The round's design is over 25 years old.

If you wish full retention, try the HST... if you are shooting game, a better round is the "Fusion" from Federal.



This .357 Sig load in the premuim line is not a Hydra-Shok, and I don't subscribe to the religion of 100% weight retention.

I've also got no problems with this round's performance on animals. If I'm hunting game on purpose, I use a rifle. I use my carry pistol for targets of opportunity when retrieving the rifle is impractical.

In addition, the HST load is more expensive and harder to find, then the load I'm completely pleased with now, so why would I want to change? And the Federal web site doesn't even list an HST load in .357 Sig.

You sure did pack a lot of bad info into two lines.

Michael Courtney

Link Posted: 8/31/2005 6:32:53 AM EDT
remind me to not it corn from now on
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 6:56:17 AM EDT
This was a bin of cattle feed, not corn for human consumption.

Michael Courtney
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 9:38:05 PM EDT
beefing up the cattle for your next ballistics test?
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 6:14:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/3/2005 6:15:08 AM EDT by dullh]
This is no mystery and it's *not* a surprise. Congratulations! You've just experienced what others have known for years!

If the jacket is not somehow bonded to the lead core, it will come off more often than not. It's that simple.

If you want a round that won't lose it's jacket, try a bonded core round like the Speer Gold Dot.

The bullet losing it's jacket is *not* a big deal, unless you're shooting through a barrier; otherwise they're just fine.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 6:29:36 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 11:10:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By VA-gunnut:

Originally Posted By Michael_Courtney:

Originally Posted By FedGunner:
Hydra-Shoks will shed the jacket from time to time. The round's design is over 25 years old.

If you wish full retention, try the HST... if you are shooting game, a better round is the "Fusion" from Federal.



This .357 Sig load in the premuim line is not a Hydra-Shok, and I don't subscribe to the religion of 100% weight retention.

I've also got no problems with this round's performance on animals. If I'm hunting game on purpose, I use a rifle. I use my carry pistol for targets of opportunity when retrieving the rifle is impractical.

In addition, the HST load is more expensive and harder to find, then the load I'm completely pleased with now, so why would I want to change? And the Federal web site doesn't even list an HST load in .357 Sig.

You sure did pack a lot of bad info into two lines.

Michael Courtney





He offered his opinion and you jumped down his throat?




Check Michael Courtney's contributions to the 9mm vs. 357 sig thread...it's becoming increasingly clear that he's a man with an agenda with a loud bullhorn.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 4:15:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dullh:
This is no mystery and it's *not* a surprise. Congratulations! You've just experienced what others have known for years!

If the jacket is not somehow bonded to the lead core, it will come off more often than not. It's that simple.




Not true. We've routinely recovered many bullet designs from deer that aren't bonded to the core and most of them retain their jackets most of the time. The only bullet design which routinely loses its jacket in deer is the Triton Quik-Shok, which is designed too. Most non-bonded bullets retain their jackets in deer most of the time.

Michael Courtney
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 4:20:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/3/2005 5:29:52 PM EDT by Michael_Courtney]

Originally Posted By VA-gunnut:

He offered his opinion and you jumped down his throat? hinking.gif




The assertion that the Federal 125 grain JHP in .357 Sig is a Hydra-Shok is not an opinion, it's a claim of fact that is wrong in this case.

The assertion that I might be better served with the Federal HST load might be considered an opinion, IF there was a Federal HST load offered in .357 Sig, which there is not.

I don't mind well considered opinions which are based in facts and suggesting alternative products which actually exist. When opinions are offered and suggestions made based on products which do not even exist, then it's clear someone is just wasting the reader's time.

Michael Courtney
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 4:51:45 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 6:07:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/4/2005 6:09:11 PM EDT by dullh]
Is "Micheal_Courtney" actually "David DiFabio" by another name?

DiFabio was a condescending "my way or the highway" know-it-all that's not heard from much nowadays...
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 5:05:36 AM EDT
Mike, you might not know this but Fedgunner is our very best source of Federal Ammunition insight on this board. The Federal LE web site does not list HST in 357 Sig, but that does not mean it does not exist! HST is available from various sources, ie Stiecher's
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