Posted: 8/21/2004 9:57:03 AM EDT
Does anyone know how it compares to other calibers?
From Doc Roberts:
Other than being able to perforate soft body armor, the 5.7 x 28 mm used in the FN P90, as well as the 4.6 x 30 mm fired from the HK MP7 cause wounds less incapacitating than those made by 9 mm FMJ fired from a pistol.
I have personally fired the 5.7 x 28 mm FN P-90; velocity, penetration, and tissue destruction is like a .17 Hornet--far less than we see with 75 gr TAP or 77 MK out of our M4’s. Winchester RA45T 230 gr JHP’s fired from our duty 1911’s crush more tissue and penetrate further than the 5.7 x 28 mm. Use of the 5.7 x 28 mm is a good way to ensure mission failure.
Several papers have described the incredibly poor terminal performance of projectiles fired by the FN P90.
--Dahlstrom D, Powley K, and Gordon C: “Wound Profile of the FN Cartridge (SS 190) Fired from the FN P90 Submachine Gun". Wound Ballistic Review. 4(3):21-26; Spring 2000.
--Fackler M: "Errors & Omissions", Wound Ballistic Review. 1(1):46; Winter 1991.
--Fackler M: "More on the Bizarre Fabrique National P-90", Wound Ballistic Review. 3(1):44-45; 1997.
--FBI Academy Firearms Training Unit. FBI Handgun Ammunition Tests 1989-1995. Quantico, U.S. Department of Justice--Federal Bureau of Investigation.
--Hayes C: “Personal Defense Weapons—Answer in Search of a Question”, Wound Ballistic Review. 5(1):30-36; Spring 2001.
--Roberts G: “Preliminary Evaluation of the Terminal Performance of the 5.7 x 28 mm 23 Grain FMJ Bullet Fired by the New FN P-90 , Using 10% Ordnance Gelatin as a Tissue Simulant”, AFTE Journal. 30(2):326-329, Spring 1998.
--Roberts G: “Terminal Performance of the 5.7 x 28 mm 31 Grain SS-190 FMJ Bullet Fired by the FN P-90 in 10% Ordnance Gelatin.”, AFTE Journal. In Press.
The early 5.7 x 28 mm 23 gr FMJ bullet fired by the FN P-90 had insufficient penetration for law enforcement and military use. The current 31 gr SS-190 FMJ bullet has nearly adequate penetration, but the wound resulting from this projectile has a relatively small permanent crush cavity, as well as an insignificant temporary stretch cavity. Although the 5.7 x 28 mm penetrates soft body armor, wounding potential is at best like a .22 LR or .22 Magnum. Even 9mm NATO FMJ makes a larger wound--and we are all aware of the awe inspiring incapacitation potential of M882 ball from the M9......
Numerous other projectiles commonly used for law enforcement and military special operations applications, such as a good 9mm, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP JHP, the better 5.56 x 45 mm BTHP/JSP loads, as well as 12 gauge shotgun slugs and 00 buckshot, all provide better penetration, crush more tissue, and have far greater potential to reliably physiologically incapacitate an aggressor than the 5.7 x 28 mm 31 gr SS-190 FMJ bullet fired by the FN P-90. Law enforcement agencies and military special operations units are strongly urged to avoid adoption of this weapon system.
Thanks for the help.
There has been a lot of debate and controversy over this issue, but I would like to let you (mikepenn) know that the 5.7mm has done very well in the shootings I know of; read the below:
I love firearm debates.
I love my 57 and it shoots like a dream. Very accurate and no recoil at all. I was truely amazed at the trigger as well and I'm able to buy ammo for $16.50/50 in my area. A lot will bash the gun but from my experience with mine I'm not ready to give it up anytime soon. Just my .02 worth.
Im with the guy above, I love my Five seveN to death, great pistol, not a thing on it I would change other than spending the money to add a M6X light to the accessory rail.
i was under the impression this round did minimal soft tissue damage. can any of you leos get a hold of this secret svc report?
Id rather get shot with a .22 mag than I would a 5.7x28...then again Id rather just not ever get shot too...
The USSS has NOT adopted the FN P90 as their PDW. They do have some in inventory for limited use, btu they are not the standard weapon. The standard is still the MP5K.
I will further add that there are a lot of people who have posted many things just like that one about Doc Roberts and Fackler, but more often than not Doc Roberts comes out on top of the arguement with good data.
Remember how wonderful Blended Metal Bullets were?
I am inclined to lean on his opinion rather heavily.
The pistol barrel is also shorter than the P90's barrel, meaning the velocity of the round would suffer some from the pistol.
DML -- Where is your source for the data you posted??
I got Doc Robert's info from Tactical Forums, BTW, in case anyone is interested in looking it up for themselves.
You don't have to have an account to browse the forums or to do a search. (Good thing since I got myself banned....) Search on 5.7 and several relevant threads will pop up.
The P90 is a great platform...I am underwhelmed with the pistol...but that is personal preference
The facts...as I understand them
The 5.7mm round is not magic....it was developed to defeat body armor...which it apparently does pretty well.
Their are not enough actual shootings to rely on field data for terminal perfomance evaluation..at least not yet.
It has not done well in laboratory (Gelatin) testing.
In that testing, It performed worse than several popular handgun rounds
Those are the facts.....there is plenty of "junk science" , propaganda, and conjecture available
I don't know where you heard that; Anywhere i've heard that the SS are using the P90, i've also been told that it replaced the UZI and MP5K as their weapon of choice. I could provide several links of places where i've heard this - on several different message boards. The SS are also using the 5-7, but i'm not sure if it replaced anything.
According to FN's given data, (which has been verified through independant testing) the Five-seveN is 200 fps slower velocity than the P-90; that isn't too bad, if you ask me. Its still shooting at 2133 fps. Pistol discipline is to shoot until the threat has been stopped, and I can imagine a threat could be stopped rather easily with a 5-7: 20+1 shots to go, and very low recoil as well.
Sorry I didn't post it; its in the same thread your data came from, just read further through and you should be able to find the link.
"I don't know where you heard that; Anywhere i've HEARD that the SS are using the P90, i've also BEEN TOLD that it replaced the UZI and MP5K as their weapon of choice. I could provide several links of places where i've HEARD this - on several different MESSAGE BOARDS. The SS are also using the 5-7, but i'm not sure if it replaced anything"
Emphasis added to make a point
Not trying to be mean spirited...just trying to point out the evil machinations of the errornet
Something does not become a FACT just because someone writes it down...not even if I write it down.
If I had a $.05 for every time I heard about some new weapon system the SEALs were using...only to check with an active duty SEAL to find out they had "tested " the system...nothing more.
This type of junk science bothers me , because in this arena...bad advice/choices can get people killed.
Knowing...and more importantly aknowledging ALL the facts...both the good and the bad in any weapon system is important
If you are gonna punch holes in paper....terminal performance is not an issue
I didn't just "hear" that. The USSS has used the UZI for years, but in the last 10 or so the MP5K replaced the UZI in most applications. The USSS, I believe, has indeed looked at the P90 and turned it down for general use to replace the MP5.
I know many police/military agencies have examined the P90 in great detail and have rejected it.
I know that you have probably heard on many message boards that all sorts of people are going to the P90.
The trouble is that message boards contain a whole lot of pure bull. Some idiot says something and it gets spread faster than a wildfire in a national park. Just because a lot of people say or believe something, that doesn't make it true.
The fact is that no major military or LE agency in the country has adopted the P90 to replace other weapons systems. There have been some bought to augment current inventories with the P90 for use in special circumstances, but nobody has replaced the MP5 or the M4 with it.
What's 200 FPS anyway? No biggie!!
The fact is that you are using a tiny tiny round, and a very light bullet. The whole effectiveness of that round is based on the speed it has. The 5.56 NATO round is a totally different beast within 200 FPS. Why? Because it is a small bullet whose effectiveness is given it by high velocity. Loose that much velocity, and it changes the effectiveness of the bullet.
Now the P90's round is LIGHTER than the 55 grain NATO bullet, and is pushed by LESS POWDER. Thus the difference is even GREATER than it would be with the 55 grain NATO round.
Let me ask you a question: Do you know how long it takes to fire 20+1 rounds? Do you know how many times you can get dead in the time it takes to fire those 20 rounds out of that weapon?
The idea of firearms is NOT to have one that stops a threat on round 19 of a magazine. It is to have a weapon where you pull the trigger once and instantly stop a threat. No weapon currently guarantees this, but it is the holy grail of small arms. Yet you are placing your faith in having an additional 20 rounds to stop the threat? If you need more than 2 or 3 you are probably screwed anyway...
Not to mention that all 21 of those rounds fail to penetrate human tissue very well. Thus your rounds have a much slimmer chance of penetrating to major structures like heart, arteries and the like which actually cause someone enough damage to cease to be a threat.
See, people don't fall down and die when they get shot in real life like they do in the movies. They have a nasty habit of continuing the fight. There are 2 ways to ensure that a person is no longer a threat to you:
1. Cause massive enough blood loss that the body no longer has the physical ability to function
2. Interrupt the CNS so that the body no longer has the ability to function
You do both by punching big holes in the right stuff. The 5.7 round out of the P90 or the handgun doesn't punch big holes in anything.
The kicker about combat is that there is a guy over there trying to kill you, and you really don't have a lot of time. And there could be multiple threats. Thus you need to put down the threat facing you as quickly as possible. You don't have time to monkey around with shooting something 20 times before it quits.
I looked through all the threads on the 5.7 over at TF, and I couldn't find links to anything that mentioned what you quoted. Perhaps I overlooked it...
The plain fact is that most people who rely upon weapons to save their bacon don't want anything to do with the P90 for good reason: It don't work.
The current trend is to move from SMG's to M4 type rifles shooting heavier bullets than the standard 55 grain NATO round and using .45 ACP pistols to back up the M4 style rifles.
Bigger bullets just do a better job on human targets. They are more effective at ending the fight quickly, which is the point of using a weapon in the first place.
And this does not even begin to cover the uselessness of weapons like the P90 on vehicles, barriers, supressed, etc.
It looks cool when they use it on Stargate SG-1. But the reality is that the P90 is a pea-shooter in the truest sense of the word. If all you want to do is have a futuristic looking 10 round handgun (the AWB aint over yet, you know) that shoots a pip-squeaky tiny cartridge for use on tin cans and paper targets, then this pistol fits the bill.
But I rely on my handguns for defense of my life. I will stick to my 1911, thank you.
Ah! Just found DML's posts over on TF. All these arguements were already exposed for what they are.
DML -- Do you own stock in FN or something?
Oh geez. Now I have seen the multitude of your posts on this topic. Crimony.
It seems that it is just your turn to shill for this abomination here too.
This is why you always wieigh carefully what people say on the internet. They get their you-know-whats confused with their firearms, so that any assault upon their obsession of choice is an assault upon their manhood.
Carry and shoot what you want. It's your funeral.
But I will stick to what works, mmmKay?
No offense, but this conclusion comes from pure speculation unless you can give me a reliable source.
Once again, you do not KNOW that unless you can provide a reliable source; Its quite possible some have rejected it, but we don't KNOW that at the moment. But there are also very many that are using it; check out these threads:
FN P-90 Users: http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=18882&highlight=p90
FN Five-seveN Users: http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=18884
Several of the users of the P-90 and 5-7 adopted them as replacements; here is a list of the users of the P-90 that I have gathered, and although not 100% reliable, many of them can be backed with pictures:
Belgian VIP Protection
Canada Montreal SWAT
Cyprus Army Special Forces
Cyprus National Guard
Dutch Marines BBE
French Special Forces VIP Protection
Greek EKAM CT Unit
Italian Police Special Forces
Mexico CT Unit
Pakistan Special Services Group
Peruvian Special Forces
Philippine Army Rangers
Philippine CT Team
Portuguese Police GOE
Saudi Arabian Special Forces
Singapore Army Special Forces
Spanish GEO CT Unit
Thai Special Forces
US Atlanta SRT
US Burbank Police Department
US Dallas/Fort Worth SWAT Team
US Doraville, GA SWAT Team
US Federal Protective Service
US Houston, Texas SWAT Team
US Olathe, KS SWAT Team
US Secret Service
US Sioux Falls, SD SWAT Team
Venezuelan Army Special Forces
If you don't think the above are using the P-90, argue it out on MilitaryPhotos.com, where I got almost all of them; they can back any of the mentioned users with pictures or other proof.
I know how long it takes to fire 10 rounds very quickly from a .22LR: a few seconds; 20 rounds would not take ages to fire when you don't have recoil to deal with. I will quote nf9648, who owns a 5-7: I can make holes pretty quickly with my 5-7, I cant think of another handgun Ive fired that I can shoot quicker with accuracy.BESIDES, who said it would take 20 rounds to kill someone with? My point was that (given the performance the 5.7 has shown so far in shootings) if it only took a few shots to kill (only one shot in shootings with the P-90), you can't go wrong with 21 tries, especially with such a high hit probability; why not just aim for the head? A .22LR in the head hurts worse than a .45 in the chest. You still haven't said anything about the shootings mentioned; How about the Lima, Peru shooting? Not measly performance if you ask me, especially when you remember that you have 49 or 20 rounds left in the magazine.
Tell that to the Peruvian SF operators; might I ask you what the outcome of this assault had been if they had been armed with 9mm MP5's instead of P-90's?
hearAny one who defends the 5.7 gets the 'FN rep' label, and its pretty discouraging; ask p99guy about the hammer.
Obviously, I like these guns and you don't like these guns; so what? We can leave it here, or we can argue it to end.he
How about this: You tell us where YOUR source is for saying that the USSS is replacing their MP5's and going whole hog for the P-90.
There are SOME that are using the P-90 in CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES. There are VERY FEW if ANY departments or groups that are replacing other weapons systems with the P90 or the pistol.
No, you are asserting that the USSS has replaced or is in the process of replacing their SMG supply and adopting the P-90 full off. Prove it.
The USSS has had the MP5K for some time and it is no secret. You prove that they are switching, skippy.
A pic of someone holding a weapon DOES NOT REPEAT DOES NOT mean that the weapon has been adopted for general issue. Hell, I have pictures of myself firing off an M2, but that doesn't mean I carry one.
If your source is a bunch of pictures, then I rest my case. You haven't a clue...
Have you ever actually fired a real gun before? I am beginning to wonder....
A few shootings DOES NOT prove that a cartridge/weapon is suitable for dirty work. If someone else wants to bleed proving a technology, so be it. I won't, and most folks I know won't either.
"Aim for the head" is cute. A .22 to the head "hurts worse" than a .45 to the chest. Cute. Have you ever been in anything even close to resembling a hostile encounter? Do you know how hard it is to hit just the center mass of a guy who is moving and shooting at you? And you think you have plenty of time to do this?
Obviously not. Not to mention that the head happens to be a very bony area, and I have seen people with muzzle contact wounds from a .22 or .25 who survived no worse for the wear, or with only minor damage to themselves. These light rounds lack the power to penetrate deeply.
Now a 230 grain bullet from a 1911 will smash whatever it hits pretty well up there, and has proven it will do so for almost 100 years now.
Well aquainted with the Peruvian SF operators, are we? Trained with them? On an intimate basis with them?
Thought not. Be mighty careful about throwing around the names of PD's and SF units without actually knowing them. You can get yourself in a world of hurt that way.
They used the P-90 in that raid probably because they fully expected to run into armored terrorists. The one positive attribute of the P-90 is that it will penetrate armor with the right ammo. Ammo which is UNAVAILABLE TO NON LEO CIVILIAINS, BY THE WAY.
The P-90 is not alone in that capability. The M4 can be equipped with any number of OFF THE SHELF projectiles that will defeat most body armor AND that has superior terminal ballistics after doing so.
Perhaps it is because you all read from the same script...
Isn't TR magazine Sandow's joint? Does anyone serious still believe him?
The article you reference EXPLICITLY SAYS that the PD mentioned only uses the P-90 in the hands of the point man as an entry weapon. THEY HAVE NOT ABANDONED THE MP5 OR M4 FOR THIS WEAPON.
And if you would pay attention, you would understand that this is what I am telling you. The P-90 is a niche weapon. It can be useful in certain specific circumstances. But this is NOT going to be the bread and butter weapon you are making it out to be.
So what? Do you honestly not get it?
PEOPLE DIE IN COMBAT SITUATIONS IF THEIR WEAPON DOES NOT PERFORM PROPERLY. Do you want to know why a lot of people with a lot of experience and training aren't flocking to this new FN weapon system? Because it hasn't been proven yet. Some have enough wisdom to know that new/different does not equal BETTER.
They have seen everyone and his mama come down the pike with the latest uber-weapon that will solve everything. They have seen these types show up, blow up, throw up, dry up, and then blow away many times before.
When your continued heartbeat depends on the weapon you carry doing its job, people get mighty reluctant to just grab whatever comes down the pike.
I couldn't give a rat's rear end about this weapon. I thought it was ugly as hell when I first looked at it, and laughed out loud when I first saw the cartridge it shot. I thought it would make an excellent squirrel gun, but other than that...
And as yet I remain unconvinced that my first impression is wrong, or that this thing is a better general option than the MP5 for SMG tasks or M4 for armor. It may fill a certain niche, but that is ALL it does.
Some people may like it. Some people liked the VP70 too. But they didn't exactly catch on for pretty good reasons.
It is a novel little weapon that has some interesting features and may fill a limited tactical niche.
But there are weapons that do a better job of anything the P-90 series does, that make a whole lot more sense in most circumstances.
That goes about a thousand times more for the pistol.
If you like it, then by all means carry that thing. It's your funeral. You are the one who bleeds if you are wrong.
When you get older and wiser, you will begin to understand where I am coming from.
I already told you where that thread could be found; my source is a guy (Wholesalehunter in the thread) in contact with FN (and the PD's using it). Now its your turn to tell me your source, which is no doubt your own imagination.
I said that it means that it has been ADOPTED, not adopted for general use; why don't you pay a bit more attention? Go back and read that part of my post.
I see its back to comment-twisting again; the shootings mentioned are NOT enough to go on; I said that it ha performed well SO FAR. I would just like you to try to explain the Japanese Embassy assault in Peru.
Explain to me how a bullet travelling at 2133 fps will fail to penetrate a skull; would you volunteer to have it tried on you? Explain this: if this round will penetrate IIIA body armor at 200 meters (yes its an independantly verified number), what's to keep it from penetrating the skull of a human at CQB range?
This is absolutely false and shows how very little you know about these guns/round; take a look here: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=197018&page=1 The civilian ammo DOES penetrate general use body armor.
Hmmm. Including Sandy Wall of the Houston PD? I thought you just told me to be careful with "throwing around" the names of PD's; sorry I have to tell you this, but you're throwing around the name of a respected SWAT cop, and getting awfully huffy-puffy in the meantime.
The 5.7mm ball produces a wound cavity about the size and shape of the best 9mm 115 grain JHP +P+, except the peak occurs at a deeper penetration. In the one shooting we had with the P90, the bullet performed well. In fact, the bullet performed exactly as it was designed. The autopsy provided detailed information about the wound cavity and travel of the bullets. When I talk to operators from other agencies about weapons, I now seldom have to explain what weapon I’m talking about when I mention the P90 as my primary. Obviously the folks at FN are getting the message out and the weapon is now familiar. If you operate in an environment like the one I operate in, you can’t go wrong with a P90 slung at the low-ready.
The only people that have adopted these weapons (such as the USSS) adopted them in the face of ballistic reports such as the one in your first post. This excuse of "people will die if I don't warn them" simply does not work; (actually, if the Peruvian SF had been using an MP5 instead of a P-90, the outcome surely would have been the opposite of what it was) the real reason you hate the round is because it shoots a small, light bullet. If someone comes up with a gun that shoots a bullet the size of a grain of sand at mach 5 and it gives stellar performance in shootings, i'm all out for it, I don't care how dinky it looks, I CARE HOW IT PERFORMS. If people are so stupid that they buy these guns or any gun without looking into its abilities or inabilities, they should not be the ones we're trusting our lives to.
AH HA! So the selling factor for a gun that your life depends on is aesthetics?! Oh boy.hould
First of all, mikepenn33, sorry your question got jacked. But since we're not turning back and it's somehow pissin me off...
To be quick about it you're both (John and DmL) in the wrong but whatever. If you want we can continue that privately.
since this forums open to the world, I'll just throw out this
Captain O'neil likes it.
Good enough for me.
I'd say toss the pics up in The Armory maybe. It is a very nice little weapon.
Thanks; here it is: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=2&t=176451&page=1
If the above link doesn't work, the thread can be found in THE ARMORY/GENERAL; Keep checking it, as I will be making additions.
Nice pic you have posted up there, let me know when you find out how to post them on your armory link.
First pics in my thread have been posted; bookmark the thread and keep checking back.