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Posted: 10/27/2003 5:34:56 AM EDT
[#1]
This a common problem on the Beretta. Anyone claiming different is a liar. I have seen it MANY times. I have even bought a couple of "unreliable junk" Beretta pistols very cheap from people that were too ignorant to know what the problem was. I could pull the slide off and just a trace of lube will bring them back to 100%.
It is also a common problem with tight 1911s and Ruger all steel autos. They work just fine if lubed. I use a thin grease on the rails in the summer and synthetic motor oil in the winter. While the Beretta is a decent pistol this is one reason I would not wish to rely on one in bad conditions or count on it firing an extreme number of rounds at one time without cleaning or lube. |
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Posted: 10/27/2003 5:56:55 AM EDT
[#2]
There is noting wrong with your gun.
Cornbread2: It is not a common problem on the Beretta, it is a common problem and the majority of firearms. Some simple math: Most guns - CLP = jams. Having jams in a bone dry gun is NOT uncommon. It happens with AR-15's, Berettas, tight 1911's, and many other firearms. Shooters use CLP or other oils for a reason. A lubed gun shoots, a bone dry gun might not. Av. |
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Posted: 10/27/2003 6:23:36 AM EDT
[#3]
I have thoroghly degreased my Berettas and shot them bone dry without incident, but I only did this for 50 rounds a piece.
This is basically horrid abuse of the weapon and should never ever ever ever be done. I would NEVER do this with my LB1911. The Beretta's factory finish has some teflon in it which inherently reduces friction to some extent. To what extent it reduces friction also depends on how much wear the gun has. A well broken in weapon will handle no lube better than a new weapon that is still breaking in. Now that my 92FS is finished in Chrome, I will definately be paying much more attention to how it is lubed. Bottom line is carrying a weapon without lube is generally not smart, and neither is over-lubing it. Lube according to the maker's reccomendations with a good quality lube like Tetra and you will be fine. |
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Posted: 10/27/2003 6:24:00 AM EDT
[#4]
Hmmm, I've never had this problem with my Colt or Glocks. (Their tolerences are a little looser too.) Maybe that's the reason you don't see an ad for Berettas being frozen in snow and dipped in mud. I still really like the gun. It may get a little Castrol in it now though. I just assumed a "combat pistol" would function for a few mags when dry.
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Posted: 10/27/2003 6:25:55 AM EDT
[#5]
Most all things mechanical need lubrication to function and live a longer life.
Drain the oil from your car engine, for example, and it too would become a "jam-O-Matic".  Thin grease, or a drop of oil here and there, where needed should be included when cleaning is completed. A revolver has a better chance running dry with a few sliding and rotating parts compared to the barrel, locking block, and slide to frame friction of an auto. |
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Posted: 10/27/2003 6:38:50 AM EDT
[#6]
Typically, a "bone dry" service grade auto will work for around 50 rounds or so of service ammo, then begin to cause problems...does not matter whose gun it is so long as it's good quality...and Berettas, Sigs and Glocks tend to do somewhat better than most.
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Posted: 10/27/2003 6:04:39 PM EDT
[#7]
Do this test: drain all the oil out of your car/truck engine, tranny & rear diff & then go drive it at high speed for 75-100 miles.
Don't like that idea? That's basically what you did with the 92. |
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Posted: 10/28/2003 9:57:49 AM EDT
[#8]
A semiautomatic firearm is like a car engine. Run it without lube, it might run for a while..... But do you really want to do that??
It's a MACHINE. Machines need lubrication. Lube it appropriately, and you'll have no problems. CLP is great. There are good light greases that work great. I currently use RIG on my 1911 and CZ, and they run fine. |
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Posted: 10/29/2003 5:27:15 AM EDT
[#9]
I oiled the gun back in August. With the hot summers we have down here it just evaporated out. I sparingly put oil on the slide rails becase I usually end up carrying the thing Mexican style. Berettas are comfortable to do that with. Just don't want oil stained pants or underwear. Not to mention it's bad for your skin.
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Posted: 10/29/2003 5:50:51 AM EDT
[#10]
Then you need to find a new way of carrying or buy a good IWB holster.
I keep my Beretta oiled, and don't have a problem with oil-stains on my pants. Av. |
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Posted: 10/29/2003 7:33:38 AM EDT
[#11]
You are supposed to lubricate them?
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Posted: 10/30/2003 5:03:40 AM EDT
[#12]
Carry guns, especially IWB ones, are exposed to more crud than you can possibly imagine. Thus they need to be cleaned more frequently than "back in August."
 Lint, dust, flakes of dried skin, etc all accumulate in carry guns, thus you should clean them at least once every 2 weeks, or if you have been doing a lot of activity while wearing them, clean them more often. I usually inspect any semi-autos I have been carrying every week or so and wipe off any dust and crud that accumulates. I lube if it is needed, which is almost never, then do a firing pin check with a pencil. As a result, I can count on one hand the number of jams I have ever experienced with a carry gun. The problem with oil is that it does go places you don't want it, so I mainly use a thin layer of Tetra-Grease on my guns. It works beautifully on my AR and my pistols, and is a godsend for my Garand. Some say that grease leaves dust in contact with your firearm more, but the Tetra product seems to be pretty good at repelling dust. I did a little experiment where I put some metal in a place that accumulates a lot of dust and treated one half with a very thin layer of Tetra-Grease. When I came back after a week, the non-treated half had dust on it so thick you could feel it on your finger. The Tetra half didn't have any on it at all. Thus I am confident in its use... |
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Posted: 10/30/2003 12:22:46 PM EDT
[#13]
Running a gun without lube for a few mags is just not going to hurt it that much.
If my gun isn't going to work without oil, I wouldn't feel comfortable using it to defend myself. I don't have a problem with my carry guns leaking oil, but then again I tend to lube sparingly. One good drop of oil is plenty for all the rail surfaces. Putting any more than that is useless because it will go elsewhere in short order anyway. A little in the hammer / sear area, and a little in the locking lug area is all I usually apply. If you do find yourself with oily holsters and clothes, I recommend the dry lubes such as Hoppe's. These deposit powdered Teflon in an alcohol carrier which soon evaporates. The lube stays put and isn't going to leak everywhere. |
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Posted: 10/30/2003 1:22:36 PM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:
If my gun isn't going to work without oil, I wouldn't feel comfortable using it to defend myself. That is exactly how I feel. The pistol I carry all day everyday will work if it is soaking wet with lube or if it has not had a drop of oil in a year. I don't have to worry about it. I know it will work no matter if it is spotless boot camp clean or dirty from the last case of cheap ammo I shot. There is not a Beretta made that I would trust with MY life for everyday carry. |
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Posted: 10/31/2003 4:47:19 AM EDT
[#15]
Yet my Berettas have endured many of the extreme conditions you cite with no problem at all. I carry them all the time and have no problem.
You obviously don't like them, and that's fine. But I still think you should meet me down at Blackwater and endure a 3,000 round handgun course. Your tupperware vs. my 92. Then you can see how well a 92 endures for yourself... |
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Posted: 10/31/2003 12:57:12 PM EDT
[#16]
I am not a "world class" pistol shooter such as yourself so I am sure you can out shoot me anytime you wish. That does not mean your Beretta will perform better in harsh conditions than my Glock and if you have been there and done half of what you claim you KNOW this to be true and you would not make such a challange. I would have to wait on you to change trigger springs and since I work for a living I don't have that much time. Also if I wanted to shoot with a bunch of arrogent "legends in their own minds" pistol shooters I would not have to drive such a great distance. I would only have to drive 6 miles to our club when the local IDPA guys are there. |
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Posted: 10/31/2003 4:28:49 PM EDT
[#17]
Pardon me for saying so but that's about the silliest thing I've read in here in a long long time. |
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Posted: 10/31/2003 4:49:06 PM EDT
[#18]
You're welcome to think so. However, I was taught that lubrication should not be relied upon to make a mechanism function correctly. Its main purpose is to keep surface wear (and corrosion) to a minimum. I don't know that I feel completely comfortable knowing that my and my family's life depends on whether my gun has just exactly the right amount of lubrication on it. Of course all guns need lube to perform at their best. I just don't think that in this day and age, there is any excuse for a gun to require lubrication to function as intended. |
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Posted: 10/31/2003 5:58:43 PM EDT
[#19]
These people that only shoot on nice clean indoor ranges and never carry the same pistol seven days a week in ALL conditions would not understand the need for a pistol that does not require constant care to get it to work.
They would assume it is "silly" to want a reliable pistol. Those of us that carry one in the nasty ole real world and in the outdoors know the value of a reliable pistol that will work without constant care, cleaning and lube. |
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Posted: 10/31/2003 8:08:34 PM EDT
[#20]
The NYPD has had many problems with glock Kabooms, in the past. I agree that a glock can handle dirt and adverse conditions with no oil better than a beretta, but does that make it better than a beretta which performs better than a glock with some oil? Is it that hard to oil the gun?
The army uses AR's which require constant cleaning and oiling for a reason. They could just buy AK's which you can pour sand through and never oil, but they don't. ALso, Im not a big fan of the beretta or the glock, especially if what has been said about the beretta is true. I have a Colt Mark IV 1911 that sat in a police station storage room unsealed for three years less than a mile away from the ocean. It was not oiled once; when I picked it up, it had small amounts of rust on the stainless steel. I took the gun and shot 50 rounds immediately after picking it up, no oil no nothing, it worked fine. However the thumb safety was locked until I took the gun apart and oiled it, that was it!! Even with a locked thumb safety the gun shot great, three years no oil!! Granted this particular model does not have a super tight barrel bushing or slide to frame fit. |
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Posted: 11/1/2003 2:49:49 PM EDT
[#21]
Get rid of that _______ ______sissy pistol and get yourself a Glock!
Just kidding, it's what makes you comfortable but I must disagree with the uninformed reference to Glock by MurdochsM4: >>> "does that make it better than a beretta which performs better than a glock with some oil?"<<< The out-of-the-box Beretta in any model (whether with or without oil) hasn't seen the first day of bettering a basic Glock in out-of-the-box performance! Dream on! Regards, Glockguy1 |
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Posted: 11/1/2003 8:52:55 PM EDT
[#22]
So you are saying that a stock glock is more accurate than a stock beretta? I was not aware of this.
So how come the military doesn't use them again? You know what military uses glocks? The fucking swedish military! You know why? Because they couldn't afford the SIG P226's that outperformed glocks in their tests; they wanted SIG'S! |
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Posted: 11/2/2003 9:53:12 AM EDT
[#23]
According to our Glock "expert" John Wayne Glocks have serious reliability and parts breakage problems. He knows this because he seem ONE idiot at ONE shooting range having problems with a .4O Glock. Also he takes the "unbiased" word of Dean Speir as the whole truth and nothing but the truth. |
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Posted: 11/2/2003 9:57:20 AM EDT
[#24]
I don't think you would know the diffrence. 98% of pistol owners can't shoot ANY pistol to it's accuracy standard so someone such as yourself would not be able to compare the accuracy of the two. How do I know you are not one of the two % that can know the difference? I just read your posts. |
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Posted: 11/2/2003 10:14:40 AM EDT
[#25]
!!!!!!KABOOM!!!!!! |
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Posted: 11/2/2003 2:59:37 PM EDT
[#26]
Back to the dry 92FS for a moment . I had one that suddenly started jamming every round . I took it apart to look for something broken and saw that it was pretty dry . Cleaned and lubed and it ran like a top . I have a tendency to under lube my weapons . Gotta stop doing that .
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Posted: 11/2/2003 5:29:12 PM EDT
[#27]
To me, anyone who runs a gun dry deserves no sympathy when that gun locks up. No one with any sense would think to run a car engine dry, why would a gun be any different?
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Posted: 11/2/2003 5:51:23 PM EDT
[#28]
Im currently without words...
Which is probably good, cuz the ones that are forming are impolite. |
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Posted: 11/2/2003 7:02:51 PM EDT
[#29]
The engine / gun analogy is not the best one to use. Oil is much more necessary to an engine. Internal combustion generates far more heat and friction than any handgun. Engines were designed with self contained lubrication systems, and they are a closed system where the lube should not run away or evaporate under most conditions. If guns needed oil like engines do, they would be designed with their own little oil pans and oil pumps ;) I am not trying to advocate keeping your guns dry. Anyone relying on a gun should make every effort to keep it properly lubricated. But there are situations where this becomes impractical, such as desert or arctic use. What I am saying is that if all other things were equal, I prefer a gun that could run dry if necessary to one that must have some lube to run at all. |
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Posted: 11/3/2003 5:00:52 AM EDT
[#30]
That makes sense for those of us that depend on our guns for the defense of ourselves and our families. For plinkers and the IDPA guys and wanta be Rambos that only use guns for toys it does not matter how much maintainance is required for them to work. If their wonder gun jams they have only lost a couple of points in a match or just looked dumb in front of their buddies. A everyday carry gun has to work everytime. If not we face more serious problems than droped points or embarassment. I find it strange that people that have never carried a gun can be such "experts" and know so much about things they have never done. |
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Posted: 11/3/2003 8:50:20 AM EDT
[#31]
During the break in period and when I am going to the range, I lube the rails of my pistols pretty good. However, when I'm carrying a pistol, I don't have much lube on my carry gun at all. The good thing about Berettas is the fact that you don't have to oil them much once the rails get slick. I use "Rig" lube on the rails until they have a “well-used skillet” texture to them. Once I get that slick texture, I go with Rem Oil or nothing at all. You can accelerate this process by using a light polishing compound.
I have more Glocks than I do Berettas, but I think the Beretta is a great pistol. I carry Glocks and the Springfield Armory XD series over the Beretta 92FS, mainly because of the caliber, ease of concealability and comfort of my other guns. I don’t really care for DA/SA guns. My Beretta has been every bit as reliable as my Glocks. To say differently would be a lie. |
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Posted: 11/3/2003 10:59:13 AM EDT
[#32]
I also agree with this. My PA-63 had 500 rounds of Barnual hollow points through it and the only lubrication it had was twice sprayed with penetrating oil that quickly ran off. I can count the problems I had on my fingers and they could all be attributed to a worn out recoil spring. It became so week that it would not strip the rounds from the mag sometimes. Now it is flawless. |
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Posted: 11/3/2003 1:10:28 PM EDT
[#33]
I politely suggest you not paint such a broad brush in here about members. There's many who have experiences or knowledge that you or I will never dream of. OTOH, if you truely want to be a jackass, then knock yourself out. You'll have plenty of company. |
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Posted: 11/3/2003 3:19:48 PM EDT
[#34]
I'll have to agree with the "if it's a machine, it needs lubrication" crowd. To carry an unlubricated machine that could quite possibly save your life or someone else's is INCOMPREHENSIBLE to me. I carried my 92FS here in Aridfuckingzona for two years before I bought a SIG (smaller, lighter) and had ZERO problems with it. It gets hot here (let me correct that-FUCKING HOT here). I drive a black truck. It's dusty and dirty here. Sometimes I have to leave my piece in the truck when I enter "no weapons" faclilties. I still have no problems. Maybe you need to examine your choice of lubricants. I use the same thing on all my handguns (and both my ARs)-TW25B. It works, and I ain't looking to replace it with anything else because it does. To risk ruin of fine piece of machinery (even a Glock) because "it'll work without it" is idiocy IMHO.
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Posted: 11/4/2003 5:29:23 AM EDT
[#35]
No one is telling anyone not to lube their carry gun.
The point is that some guns REQUIRE lube and some do not. Those that DO NOT require lube makes a better choice of carry gun IF you expect it to work for you under all conditions. I really can't see how that is so hard for some of you to understand. |
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Posted: 11/4/2003 7:10:07 AM EDT
[#36]
I never claimed to be an expert on anything, so you can quit saying it. I AM however saying that you are one of the armchair commandos who should be ignored. To a presentation of facutal and verifiable documentation, you have responded with ad hominem attacks and broad generalizations without the slightest effort to back any of it up. As such, I think it is obvious who has won the arguement. And your Dean Speir fetish really is starting to concern me... Glocks have 1.broken 2.jammed 3.been upgraded by the factory 4.been found lacking by certain professionals. So has every other design out there. Thus Glocks are not the immaculate conception of the handgun world that some people seem convinced that they are. And the "one idiot" you claim I saw having problems with a .40 Glock was in actuality 6 "idiots" four of which have actual combat experience. (i.e. they have actually had to shoot at someone) This is experience you seem to lack, and you should be careful before insulting them. |
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Posted: 11/4/2003 7:18:42 AM EDT
[#37]
Again, you are making stuff up. I never claimed to be a "world class" shooter in any of the associations, IDPA, IPSC, or USPSA. So quit saying it. My Beretta HAS performed excellently in harsh conditions of mud and dirt and heat and the accumulated crud from thousands of rounds being fired in short periods of time. And through it all the pistol worked like a champ, which is inconsistent with your view that the 92 can't stand anything other than perfectly sanitary range conditions. A properly maintained Beretta will work as well as a properly maintaned Glock any day of the week. You will not find "legends in their own mind" types at Blackwater, genius, you find real operators who use guns for a living. And as a result, you would get to spend some time around guys with real experience who do the deed every day, and you might not sound like such a dork all the time. But it is probably better that you don't go, because guys like you don't survive very long at a table surrounded by real pros who know their stuff. They usually make it a point to see if they can make spouters like you cry. They are usually successful... |
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Posted: 11/4/2003 8:03:23 AM EDT
[#38]
If you have a gun that works dry and you like it that way fine, it's not worth arguing over.
I choose to lube mine because I paid good money for it and would rather not see it worn down from galling or binding or a malfunction from excessive friction. Rig or slick 50 grease in the summer on the rails, locking block/cam to a thinner oil that works in subzero temperatures during the winter. Using an engine, perhaps, was not the best analogy, maybe a chain or a trucks fifth wheel, door locks, wheel bearings, a sewing machine or a set of gears would have been better. A toaster, normally is not equipped with grease fittings, however.  A lubeless world would not be a happy place, most everything would grind to a halt eventually. The squeakiest slide gets the grease, pardon my variation of an old saying. |
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Posted: 11/4/2003 11:32:34 AM EDT
[#39]
Your trip to Blackwater does not impress me even if you have been there. You seem to think that this experience makes you somehow better than all of us. It does not. It also does not impress anyone else that has enough experience to see through your bullshit. I am not the only one that can spot a BS artist but apparently I am one of the few that tends to let you know our opinion of posers and liars. I have read your BS on several boards and I know what you are. You can deny it all you want but ALL of your "been to Blackwater" posts are pretty much the same. It means NOTHING to those of us that carry a pistol everyday in the real world. |
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Posted: 11/4/2003 11:56:18 AM EDT
[#40]
Exactly. I oil all my guns for the same reason, but someday I might have to use one that has less than sufficient lube on it. I'm not talking about going with a dry gun as a matter of practice, just firing a magazine through it in an emergency where Mr. Murphy has washed away or dried up the lube. In that admittedly unlikely situation, God forbid, it makes sense not to have to depend on a gun that absolutely will not work dry. Having said that, my primary carry gun is a Commander that is oiled regularly, even when it isn't strictly necessary, mostly because I enjoy doing it rather than any dire need for lubrication. |
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Posted: 11/4/2003 1:46:32 PM EDT
[#41]
You posted on another board that one of the major problems the "highly trained experts" at Blackwater had with their Glocks was trigger pins coming out. A trigger pin on a Glock can not come out UNLESS someone removed it and did not put it back in correctly. The removal and correct replacement of the Glock trigger pin is something I can do in just a few seconds with both eyes closed and a beer in my right hand. So can ANY Glock armorer and most ANYONE with any general knowledge of the Glock system do the same. So your Blackwater heroes are not up to MY standards. If they are too ignorant to know and understand the pistol they carry perhaps they should find another line of work. In other words they were IDIOTS if they can't keep the trigger pin in their Glocks and their experience means NOTHING. I would not want anyone this stupid covering my ass. You can put all of your faith in them but I will stay as far away from them as I can. |
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Posted: 11/4/2003 1:56:19 PM EDT
[#42]
That is eaisly understood. The indoor range fantasy shooters may not agree but it makes sense. Long ago I had a 100% reliable Ruger P-89 that went through thousands of rounds and was 100% reliable as long as it was fairly clean and lubed. The day I really needed it to work it would not because it had gotten wet and the rain had washed away the lube. The Ruger is history and I would never wish to rely on one again. If I had only been a indoor range fantasy shooter I would never have known this very important fact and I would be one of the people that fails to understand logic and common sense and would not agree with you. I don't know about some of the others here but where I live it rains and I don't leave my carry gun at home because of it. |
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Posted: 11/5/2003 4:28:14 AM EDT
[#43]
I said that they BROKE the trigger pins genius. You can't even get the tiniest things right. Why in the hell should anyone pay attention to you at all? I am amazed at your willingness to pronounce idiocy on various people who have more training, experience, and have seen more combat action than you. God help you if you ever actually run into some of these guys with that attitude. All I see you doing is contributing wild conjecture and idiotic pronouncements about what you will and won't carry, and who is stupid or a bs artist by the judgement of your expansive tactical knowledge. You rarely contribute anything of actual value. Thus continuing to talk to you is pointless. Go ahead and pronounce people with real combat experience to be idiots while you skulk around your living room with your Glock and think yourself to be a tactical bad ass. Enjoy your fantasy and may you never have to actually use your weapon. Odds are you won't survive if you do... |
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Posted: 11/5/2003 5:52:53 AM EDT
[#44]
Unlike you I have never claimed to be a "tactical bad ass". Only you claim that with your "Blackwater" lies and assorted bullshit. In fact I have never claimed anything but a good general knowledge of the guns in question which is something that you are clearly lacking. Also what CAN I assume from your reports of "real people with combat experience" that can not get one of the most reliable pistols ever made to work. I would have to assume one of three things. You are a liar. They are idiots. Or both. On another note I just happened to talk to a couple of young men that took the same class you claim to have taken. Their stories are 100% different from yours. |
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Posted: 11/5/2003 6:58:45 AM EDT
[#45]
So you are claiming that Glocks are the most reliable pistols ever made? Do you have statistics to back this up? Talk is cheap son. |
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Posted: 11/5/2003 6:59:15 AM EDT
[#46]
You have just spent tons of time proclaiming people you don't know anything about and have never met idiots or liars because they don't worship the Glock as you do, or because they think your requirement for a pistol that will run without lube is stupid. Now you have the balls to claim you never called yourself a tactical bad ass.
Good ol' cornball. Never been trained, and never will cause he knows it all. Moron.
Again, the Tactical Bad Ass Ruleth. All bow...
 Really? When did they take it? Who was the instructor? What were the names/occupations of some of the class members? Don't just continue to spout tripe, come up with something substantive for once in your life. Don't just sit here and spout shit like you usually do. Put up or shutup. |
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Posted: 11/5/2003 7:00:17 AM EDT
[#47]
Aside from who's an expert or who's gun can lick who's...or any other derogatory type inuendos...
 There is a case or two for NOT lubing, one involves Korea and the extreme cold. It was found on old slabsides that the firing pin, spring and channel was best left dry as frozen lubricant stops the inertia FP enough to prevent firing. The other case involves a LN Springfield blued .45. Retrieving it from the car on a real cold night, it took a full 15 minutes of warm up to rack the slide! Lube unknown, it may have been factory but it was as if it had been welded shut. A thin film of oil is applied for cold temperature use now. |
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Posted: 11/5/2003 7:06:44 AM EDT
[#48]
Generally you aren't supposed to lube the firing pin channel. That causes problems in all sorts of environments.
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Posted: 11/5/2003 9:18:43 AM EDT
[#49]
If you would bother to read my post you would see that I said ONE OF THE MOST RELIABLE pistols ever made. Anyone that has experience with MANY examples of Glocks knows this to be true. ANYONE that has spent lots of time on public ranges and police ranges where thousands of rounds are fired on a regular basis through several types and brands of pistols KNOWS this to be true. If you are saying this is not true then you lack this kind of experience. Come back in a few years when you grow up and then we will talk. |
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Posted: 11/5/2003 12:18:44 PM EDT
[#50]
If you dont want dripping oil from your carry gun use a dry lube. A combination cleaner and dry lube will prevent the problem and keep the gun working fine.Spray clean the gun all inside and let the lube dry. Wipe off any over spray and you have a dry lubed gun, no drippy oil.
Hornady one shot cleaner and dry lube workes well. |
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