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Posted: 9/7/2009 5:27:19 PM EST
Did Winchester start making ammo under the Black Talon name? Found quite a bit locally, didn't know if it was old stock they picked up from somewhere or if they were new.
Link Posted: 9/7/2009 6:58:23 PM EST
Nothing on the Winchester site. Likely an old stock pile.
Link Posted: 9/7/2009 7:01:30 PM EST
I would be way shocked to find that brand resurrected.

Link Posted: 9/7/2009 7:06:12 PM EST
Pretty sure old stock.

Why not just buy Ranger T-series?
Link Posted: 9/7/2009 7:06:42 PM EST
1994-1995?

Winchester had the improved version called Ranger (no longer had the black coating), then just came out with another improved version a few months ago...

Link Posted: 9/7/2009 7:07:30 PM EST
More than likely LEO stock being sold off after they replaced them with fresh ammo.

TXDPS useually restocks every 2 years when 45acp was standard issue. I picked up 500 rounds for 13 bucks a box in 1997. Kept stored in a nice dry cool place. I test once in a while and it still goes bang. As long as it is stored properly it should last for a long time. Right now this ammo is my SHTF handgun ammo.
Link Posted: 9/7/2009 7:56:29 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/7/2009 8:03:00 PM EST by cmacaz]
Winchester manufactured Black Talons from early 90's and they were available to late 90's. Winchester did not stop manufacturing that particular controlled expansion bullet. Winchester changed the name from Black Talon to Ranger SXT and removed the black coating. If I remember correctly.
What I do know is the reason Winchester capitulated and changed its name was because Black groups found the name offensive, because "Black Talons" were referred to as "Black Felons" within the LEO community and the law abiding civilian community.
It is a devastating round. There had been documented cases of ER doctors complaining about the amount of tissue damage they created.
About the same time PMC had developed a similar round named "Starfire".

Shoot a couple of rounds in a large bucket of water ( I know water is not a realistic representation of human tissue). But you will be able to retrieve them easily. I believe you will be amaze at the expansion and the way the copper peels back revealing multiple razor sharp petals 360 degrees.
Link Posted: 9/8/2009 2:36:45 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/8/2009 2:39:38 AM EST by Indrid-Cold]
Black Talon came out around 1991 and was discontinued by Winchester in '94/'95.
The whole "Black Pedals of Death " and all that was too much for the public, so over-reaction theater set in.
Stuff got re-branded and introduced as the kinder, less offensive SXT. Otherwise known as "Same X-act Thing"

In order as they appreared on open market:

BLACK TALON................Black bullet + nickel plated case
RANGER SXT.................Black bullet + brass case
SUPREME SXT................Copper bullet + nickel plated case
RANGER T....................Copper bullet + nickel plated case
ENHANCED RANGER T......Copper bullet + nickel plated case
Link Posted: 9/8/2009 2:58:36 AM EST
Thanks for the education guy. I have no intentions of buying it. I'n 24 and have never seen them bbefore. They were gouging pretty bad. I think they wanted 46$ for a 20 round box. I already carry Winchester SXT.
Link Posted: 9/8/2009 3:04:43 AM EST
It looks like the product code for the enhanced Ranger-T did not change. Is there a lot number for RA45T and RA9T that will let me know which I have?
Link Posted: 9/8/2009 3:14:58 AM EST

For the record, the reason the ER docs didn't like Black Talons was that the sharp petals posed a risk to them as they were digging into the patients while trying to stop bleeders. Never fun to nick yourself while awash in a potential sea of deadly pathogens.
Link Posted: 9/8/2009 4:47:32 AM EST
Originally Posted By cmacaz:
Winchester manufactured Black Talons from early 90's and they were available to late 90's. Winchester did not stop manufacturing that particular controlled expansion bullet. Winchester changed the name from Black Talon to Ranger SXT and removed the black coating. If I remember correctly.
What I do know is the reason Winchester capitulated and changed its name was because Black groups found the name offensive, because "Black Talons" were referred to as "Black Felons" within the LEO community and the law abiding civilian community.
It is a devastating round. There had been documented cases of ER doctors complaining about the amount of tissue damage they created.
About the same time PMC had developed a similar round named "Starfire".

Shoot a couple of rounds in a large bucket of water ( I know water is not a realistic representation of human tissue). But you will be able to retrieve them easily. I believe you will be amaze at the expansion and the way the copper peels back revealing multiple razor sharp petals 360 degrees.



Colin Ferguson shooting people up on a NY Subway had a lot to do with Winchester dropping the Black Talon line also and I think that those Doctors were complaining about the tissue damage.
I also think that a Father and Son were murdered by Colin Ferguson on that Subway and their Wife/Mom went on to be an Anti Gun Politician in NY if I am not mistaken ?
I have Black Talons for my XD-40 and Rangers for my XD-45

Link Posted: 9/8/2009 5:04:31 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/8/2009 5:05:33 AM EST by Green95LX]
Originally Posted By ohiobob:
Originally Posted By cmacaz:
Winchester manufactured Black Talons from early 90's and they were available to late 90's. Winchester did not stop manufacturing that particular controlled expansion bullet. Winchester changed the name from Black Talon to Ranger SXT and removed the black coating. If I remember correctly.
What I do know is the reason Winchester capitulated and changed its name was because Black groups found the name offensive, because "Black Talons" were referred to as "Black Felons" within the LEO community and the law abiding civilian community.
It is a devastating round. There had been documented cases of ER doctors complaining about the amount of tissue damage they created.
About the same time PMC had developed a similar round named "Starfire".

Shoot a couple of rounds in a large bucket of water ( I know water is not a realistic representation of human tissue). But you will be able to retrieve them easily. I believe you will be amaze at the expansion and the way the copper peels back revealing multiple razor sharp petals 360 degrees.



Colin Ferguson shooting people up on a NY Subway had a lot to do with Winchester dropping the Black Talon line also and I think that those Doctors were complaining about the tissue damage.
I also think that a Father and Son were murdered by Colin Ferguson on that Subway and their Wife/Mom went on to be an Anti Gun Politician in NY if I am not mistaken ?
I have Black Talons for my XD-40 and Rangers for my XD-45



Carolyn Mccarthy?

Link Posted: 9/8/2009 8:53:29 AM EST
As I recall, the reason for the untimely death of the brand was prompted by the more usual political reasons. A high profile trial, with a prosecutor banging on the table and repeating the phrase "deadly Blaaaaaaaaack Taaaaaaaalon bulit" to convict an innocent man who'd used them in self defense.

Similar propaganda permeated the media, along with the supposed eyewitness accounts (surgeons) of the round cutting through "victims" "like a buzzsaw". Funny, it was so devastating, but it's been upgraded twice and no one notices them these days. Many sheeple thing the BT was banned.

Even had one LEO (who carries them) tell me they're "technically illegal".
Link Posted: 9/8/2009 11:43:56 AM EST
W-W ceased commercial Black Talon production in 1993
Link Posted: 9/8/2009 12:34:10 PM EST
Originally Posted By Indrid-Cold:
Black Talon came out around 1991 and was discontinued by Winchester in '94/'95.
The whole "Black Pedals of Death " and all that was too much for the public, so over-reaction theater set in.
Stuff got re-branded and introduced as the kinder, less offensive SXT. Otherwise known as "Same X-act Thing"

In order as they appreared on open market:

BLACK TALON................Black bullet + nickel plated case
RANGER SXT.................Black bullet + brass case
SUPREME SXT................Copper bullet + nickel plated case
RANGER T....................Copper bullet + nickel plated case
ENHANCED RANGER T......Copper bullet + nickel plated case



SXT Supreme Is not the same exact thing. Different bullet.

Link Posted: 9/8/2009 4:34:22 PM EST
Originally Posted By g21fan:
Originally Posted By Indrid-Cold:
Black Talon came out around 1991 and was discontinued by Winchester in '94/'95.
The whole "Black Pedals of Death " and all that was too much for the public, so over-reaction theater set in.
Stuff got re-branded and introduced as the kinder, less offensive SXT. Otherwise known as "Same X-act Thing"

In order as they appreared on open market:

BLACK TALON................Black bullet + nickel plated case
RANGER SXT.................Black bullet + brass case
SUPREME SXT................Copper bullet + nickel plated case
RANGER T....................Copper bullet + nickel plated case
ENHANCED RANGER T......Copper bullet + nickel plated case



SXT Supreme Is not the same exact thing. Different bullet.




Correct. Ranger T is the old Black Talon. Does not look as cool as the BT though.

Gun shop had boxes of them in 124gr +P for pretty good prices, but I didn't jump because I had just given them my AR for about $100 worth of work. I think the 147gr gold dots will do just fine for now, but I'll grab a box if I see them again. But I think i'm going to switch to a bonded core bullet next if I change from the GD.

A buddy of mine managed to snag a few boxes of BT in .45acp and even in .308 last fall at a gun show. Not terrible prices, but they were not giving it away either.
Link Posted: 9/8/2009 4:45:22 PM EST
My personal carry 9mm is loaded full of BTs as we speak

Link Posted: 9/8/2009 4:47:59 PM EST
My EDC Hi-Power is loaded up with Winchester Ranger 127+P+ "T" rounds.
Link Posted: 9/8/2009 4:57:54 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/8/2009 5:09:11 PM EST
Originally Posted By Zhukov:

Originally Posted By DevilPig:
My personal carry 9mm is loaded full of BTs as we speak


And they're a horrible choice. Consider switching.


Eh, theyre not that bad.

Plus it doesnt actually get carried that much anymore. So its a moot point really.
Link Posted: 9/8/2009 5:37:51 PM EST

Originally Posted By Indrid-Cold:
Black Talon came out around 1991 and was discontinued by Winchester in '94/'95.
The whole "Black Pedals of Death " and all that was too much for the public, so over-reaction theater set in.
Stuff got re-branded and introduced as the kinder, less offensive SXT. Otherwise known as "Same X-act Thing"

In order as they appreared on open market:

BLACK TALON................Black bullet + nickel plated case
RANGER SXT.................Black bullet + brass case
SUPREME SXT................Copper bullet + nickel plated case
RANGER T....................Copper bullet + nickel plated case
ENHANCED RANGER T......Copper bullet + nickel plated case

Don't forget the platinum tips
Winchester, a name long associated with quality rifles and shotguns, is equally famous as a manufacturer of super accurate handgun ammunition Generations of hunters have relied on the Winchester name to bring home the venison season after season, and with good reason. Never content to rest on their laurels or reputation, Winchester has designed a new bullet that should quickly gain fame as one of the premier big game projectiles on the market.

Wearing the sobriquet "Platinum Tip[TM]" this latest offering from Winchester is only available in their Supreme line of handgun ammo. Initial calibers for the Platinum Tip will include the .41 Magnum, listed as pushing a 240-grain bullet at 1,250 fps, a .44 Magnum launching a 250-grain pill at the same velocity, and a 260-grain .454 Casull loading at 1,800 lids

Micah Vaninger, new product engineer for Winchester ammunition, was the brains behind this successful new bullet. I phoned him the other day to get the scoop on the Platinum Tip ammo and it was readily apparent he was proud of his latest creation.

He informed me the new Platinum Tip bullet is a hollow point design utilizing the conventional cup and draw process for the jacket. Jacket thickness is a hearty .036" to .038" and is reverse tapered creating a wedge effect that locks the core and virtually eliminates jacket separation. For comparison, an average "off the shelf" JHP bullet only manages around .015-inch jacket thickness.

The heavy jacket does not affect the Platinum Tip's ability to expand or upset. An ingenious two part hollow point cavity effectively allows the bullet to perform its job and hold together from point blank range to any distance a handgun hunter is likely to encounter game.




Link Posted: 9/8/2009 5:43:17 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/8/2009 5:48:56 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/8/2009 6:03:41 PM EST by DevilPig]
Originally Posted By Zhukov:

Originally Posted By DevilPig:

Eh, theyre not that bad.

You have data on that?


Nope, not on me.

I have read quite a few articles over the past few years, but Id have to dig them up.

Are there better rounds? Sure

Its the best ammo I actually have in my possession in 9mm right now, so there it is. Thats my data.

ETA: Looked over some charts and they only had 3.5" and 5" barreled tests. Mine is a 4" barrel so these are the APPROX values for a 4" barrel:

900+ fps
Bare gelatin penetration of 13.77"
Bare gelatin expansion of .63"

Not TOO bad...like I said, theres better, theres worse, its what Ive got on hand.

Im saving my pennies for my next bulk 9mm ammo purchase. Im probably going with speer gold dot +p
Link Posted: 9/9/2009 6:38:56 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/9/2009 11:22:50 AM EST
I thought that somebody said it was a teflon coated round (could penetrate body armor) and that it was or became illegal. I had read that it is not teflon coated but, I think that the press it got scared away a lot of people.
It is funny as hell that the new rounds are now even more effective.
Link Posted: 9/9/2009 7:34:26 PM EST

Originally Posted By Brewmaster:
I thought that somebody said it was a teflon coated round (could penetrate body armor) and that it was or became illegal. I had read that it is not teflon coated but, I think that the press it got scared away a lot of people.
It is funny as hell that the new rounds are now even more effective.

Did that same person tell you that it was made to be fired from the Glock 7? The fully ceramic Glock designed to be undetectable by metal detectors.
Link Posted: 9/10/2009 1:01:27 AM EST
Originally Posted By Zhukov:
FWIW - the bare gelatin penetration was never an issue with the BTs as far as I know. Throw some clothing in the mix, and the performance goes downhill real quick. Take your time and buy some modern ammo when you have a chance.






The only real problem here in 2009 with Black Talons is that they're hideously expensive for the performance they give. They meet all the FBI criteria.
Link Posted: 9/10/2009 3:37:09 AM EST
I have 3 (had 4 but gave one to a friend) boxes of .45 AUTO 230gr Black Talon I got on an auction awhile back. I don't plan on shooting or carrying them so maybe I should just get rid of them. I wonder what a fair price is?
Link Posted: 9/10/2009 4:07:44 AM EST
Originally Posted By jlficken:
I have 3 (had 4 but gave one to a friend) boxes of .45 AUTO 230gr Black Talon I got on an auction awhile back. I don't plan on shooting or carrying them so maybe I should just get rid of them. I wonder what a fair price is?


They should be cheap to a guy from Ohio

Link Posted: 9/10/2009 4:33:29 AM EST
Originally Posted By cityboy172:
Did Winchester start making ammo under the Black Talon name? Found quite a bit locally, didn't know if it was old stock they picked up from somewhere or if they were new.


I know where you are seeing it and that came out of an old collection that was bought out. I think the guy ran a small shop out of his home and died basically leaving all of it to his wife. She has been selling it all off over the years and the ammo was the last to go. So it looks new, but its really about 10 year old ammo.

I know many people that fell into the black talon hype, but honestly there are better choices out there.

Link Posted: 9/10/2009 5:39:56 AM EST
Originally Posted By Sajer:
Originally Posted By cityboy172:
Did Winchester start making ammo under the Black Talon name? Found quite a bit locally, didn't know if it was old stock they picked up from somewhere or if they were new.


I know where you are seeing it and that came out of an old collection that was bought out. I think the guy ran a small shop out of his home and died basically leaving all of it to his wife. She has been selling it all off over the years and the ammo was the last to go. So it looks new, but its really about 10 year old ammo.

I know many people that fell into the black talon hype, but honestly there are better choices out there.



I had no intentions on using them. I Had just never seen any before. Do you work at the shop there?
Link Posted: 9/10/2009 6:11:14 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/10/2009 6:18:46 AM EST
Originally Posted By cityboy172:
Originally Posted By Sajer:
Originally Posted By cityboy172:
Did Winchester start making ammo under the Black Talon name? Found quite a bit locally, didn't know if it was old stock they picked up from somewhere or if they were new.


I know where you are seeing it and that came out of an old collection that was bought out. I think the guy ran a small shop out of his home and died basically leaving all of it to his wife. She has been selling it all off over the years and the ammo was the last to go. So it looks new, but its really about 10 year old ammo.

I know many people that fell into the black talon hype, but honestly there are better choices out there.



I had no intentions on using them. I Had just never seen any before. Do you work at the shop there?


I do on occassion when they need some extra help, though I have only worked two days in the last three months. Things are a bit slow in the gun business these days!
Link Posted: 9/10/2009 6:29:34 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/10/2009 6:31:19 AM EST by eracer]

Originally Posted By cityboy172:
Originally Posted By Sajer:
Originally Posted By cityboy172:
Did Winchester start making ammo under the Black Talon name? Found quite a bit locally, didn't know if it was old stock they picked up from somewhere or if they were new.


I know where you are seeing it and that came out of an old collection that was bought out. I think the guy ran a small shop out of his home and died basically leaving all of it to his wife. She has been selling it all off over the years and the ammo was the last to go. So it looks new, but its really about 10 year old ammo.

I know many people that fell into the black talon hype, but honestly there are better choices out there.



I had no intentions on using them. I Had just never seen any before. Do you work at the shop there?


Why not use them? It's a perfectly useful defensive round.

If you don't believe in them, I'll buy them from you for half the current price of Hydra-Shoks.
Link Posted: 9/10/2009 6:53:12 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/10/2009 8:19:33 AM EST
Originally Posted By eracer:

Originally Posted By cityboy172:
Originally Posted By Sajer:
Originally Posted By cityboy172:
Did Winchester start making ammo under the Black Talon name? Found quite a bit locally, didn't know if it was old stock they picked up from somewhere or if they were new.


I know where you are seeing it and that came out of an old collection that was bought out. I think the guy ran a small shop out of his home and died basically leaving all of it to his wife. She has been selling it all off over the years and the ammo was the last to go. So it looks new, but its really about 10 year old ammo.

I know many people that fell into the black talon hype, but honestly there are better choices out there.



I had no intentions on using them. I Had just never seen any before. Do you work at the shop there?


Why not use them? It's a perfectly useful defensive round.

If you don't believe in them, I'll buy them from you for half the current price of Hydra-Shoks.


I never bought any. Been using DPX and winchester supreames. I can get either for 10-15$ less for 20.
Link Posted: 9/10/2009 10:34:33 AM EST
Originally Posted By Zhukov:
DocGKR's take on it:

Bullet designs like the Silver Tip, Hydra-Shok, and Black Talonwere state of the art 15 or 20 years ago. These older bullets tend toplug up and act like FMJ projectiles when shot through heavy clothing;they also often have significant degradation in terminal performanceafter first passing through intermediate barriers. Modern ammunitionwhich has been designed for robust expansion against clothing andintermediate barriers is significantly superior to the older designs.The bullets in the Federal Classic and Hydrashok line are outperformedby other ATK products such as the Federal Tactical and HST, as well asthe Speer Gold Dot; likewise Winchester Ranger Talons are far superiorto the old Black Talons or civilian SXT's.





The Hydra-Shok and Silver-tip designs were notorious for plugging up and acting like FMJ. But the BTs were one of the first designs to meet the heavy clothing penetration requirement. Can you do me a favor, and comment on your thoughts on the bare gel vs. heavy clothing data above?

I agree that BTs make a poor primary choice for self defense, mostly because regular training is critical, and it's hard to train with an overpriced curio item. Your work here as ammo mod is amazing, and I really appreciate the work you do. I'm just throwing out some food for thought.
Link Posted: 9/10/2009 10:39:07 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/10/2009 11:07:36 AM EST
Originally Posted By Zhukov:

Originally Posted By first-person-shooter:

The Hydra-Shok and Silver-tip designs were notorious for plugging up and acting like FMJ. But the BTs were one of the first designs to meet the heavy clothing penetration requirement. Can you do me a favor, and comment on your thoughts on the bare gel vs. heavy clothing data above?

I agree that BTs make a poor primary choice for self defense, mostly because regular training is critical, and it's hard to train with an overpriced curio item. Your work here as ammo mod is amazing, and I really appreciate the work you do. I'm just throwing out some food for thought.

You're right - I think I still have the copy of American Rifleman where they talked about that. All I can think of is that the performance is inconsistent, because some test show that they work as pointed out above.

Missing is the whole glass/wallboard/plywood test battery though. Would I feel naked with black talons in my gun? No. It's a simple matter of modern ammo having better performance, being more widely available, and cheaper to boot. There's just no reason to look for this type of semi-collectible ammo instead.


The FBI tests in 1992 included sheet metal/glass/wallboard/plywood, and in each medium penetration exceeded 12" and expansion exceeded 1.5x diameter. Winchester's Black Talon research really paved the way for the modern JHP, which is something I'm thankful for. They created pressure on Speer, Remington, and Federal to invest more on R&D.

But I agree, there's absolutely no reason to go looking for this ammo as a self defense load. The Barnes and Ranger-T loads are far superior, and are much cheaper. Plus they could cause a lot of problems in court, since they have an infamous reputation.

Black Talon threads come up periodically, and it might be good for the owners of said ammo to know the other reasons not to use them, beyond bullet performance.
Link Posted: 9/10/2009 11:52:24 AM EST

Originally Posted By first-person-shooter:
Originally Posted By Zhukov:

Originally Posted By first-person-shooter:

The Hydra-Shok and Silver-tip designs were notorious for plugging up and acting like FMJ. But the BTs were one of the first designs to meet the heavy clothing penetration requirement. Can you do me a favor, and comment on your thoughts on the bare gel vs. heavy clothing data above?

I agree that BTs make a poor primary choice for self defense, mostly because regular training is critical, and it's hard to train with an overpriced curio item. Your work here as ammo mod is amazing, and I really appreciate the work you do. I'm just throwing out some food for thought.

You're right - I think I still have the copy of American Rifleman where they talked about that. All I can think of is that the performance is inconsistent, because some test show that they work as pointed out above.

Missing is the whole glass/wallboard/plywood test battery though. Would I feel naked with black talons in my gun? No. It's a simple matter of modern ammo having better performance, being more widely available, and cheaper to boot. There's just no reason to look for this type of semi-collectible ammo instead.


The FBI tests in 1992 included sheet metal/glass/wallboard/plywood, and in each medium penetration exceeded 12" and expansion exceeded 1.5x diameter. Winchester's Black Talon research really paved the way for the modern JHP, which is something I'm thankful for. They created pressure on Speer, Remington, and Federal to invest more on R&D.

But I agree, there's absolutely no reason to go looking for this ammo as a self defense load. The Barnes and Ranger-T loads are far superior, and are much cheaper. Plus they could cause a lot of problems in court, since they have an infamous reputation.

Black Talon threads come up periodically, and it might be good for the owners of said ammo to know the other reasons not to use them, beyond bullet performance.
Please don't worry about "in court" just hire a lawyer who knows both criminal defnese AND guns and you'll be fine with whatever you choose.
Link Posted: 9/10/2009 4:13:48 PM EST
taken from the august 1992 American Rifleman magazine:



Link Posted: 9/14/2009 12:05:32 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/14/2009 12:16:45 PM EST
Speer Gold Dots > Black Talon/Ranger
Link Posted: 9/14/2009 2:58:50 PM EST

Originally Posted By Sturmgewehr-JD:
Speer Gold Dots > Black Talon/Ranger
I disagree

Here's why:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs2.htm#Black-Talon


However, as velocity begins to slow, soft tissue is then able to stretch around the smooth outer edges of the mushroom-shaped lead core shoulder to move out of the way. As the bullet slows further it plows more and more tissue aside instead of crushing it.

Ranger Talon adds an additional wounding mechanism: cutting.

When Ranger Talon expands, its copper jacket peels back to form six sharp claws. These claws protrude outward just slightly beyond the smooth outer edges of the mushroom-shaped lead core shoulder.


Upon impact with flesh Ranger Talon performs identical to conventional hollowpoint bullets. However, as it penetrates and slows it does not suffer a decrease in effective bullet diameter. This is because tissue that stretches and flows around the smooth shoulder of the mushroom-shaped lead core comes into contact with the sharp copper jacket claws and is lacerated.These lacerations contribute little to overall wound severity.

However, if Ranger Talon happens to pass very close to a major cardiovascular structure, instead of merely shoving it aside as it passes by, one of the six claws might be in position to cut the wall of this structure to cause profuse bleeding.

This additional cutting mechanism gives Ranger Talon the potential to be approximately 3% to 5% more effective than other expanding bullets of the same caliber. In one out of every 20-30 shootings, Ranger Talon might make a difference.
Speer Gold Dots have a smooth, almost round expanded penetrating meplat. This is why i personally prefer Ranger-T and Golden Saber [and to a lesser degree HST]
Link Posted: 9/14/2009 3:59:01 PM EST
Originally Posted By Rampant_Colt:

Originally Posted By Sturmgewehr-JD:
Speer Gold Dots > Black Talon/Ranger
I disagree

Here's why:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs2.htm#Black-Talon


However, as velocity begins to slow, soft tissue is then able to stretch around the smooth outer edges of the mushroom-shaped lead core shoulder to move out of the way. As the bullet slows further it plows more and more tissue aside instead of crushing it.

Ranger Talon adds an additional wounding mechanism: cutting.

When Ranger Talon expands, its copper jacket peels back to form six sharp claws. These claws protrude outward just slightly beyond the smooth outer edges of the mushroom-shaped lead core shoulder.


Upon impact with flesh Ranger Talon performs identical to conventional hollowpoint bullets. However, as it penetrates and slows it does not suffer a decrease in effective bullet diameter. This is because tissue that stretches and flows around the smooth shoulder of the mushroom-shaped lead core comes into contact with the sharp copper jacket claws and is lacerated.These lacerations contribute little to overall wound severity.

However, if Ranger Talon happens to pass very close to a major cardiovascular structure, instead of merely shoving it aside as it passes by, one of the six claws might be in position to cut the wall of this structure to cause profuse bleeding.

This additional cutting mechanism gives Ranger Talon the potential to be approximately 3% to 5% more effective than other expanding bullets of the same caliber. In one out of every 20-30 shootings, Ranger Talon might make a difference.
Speer Gold Dots have a smooth, almost round expanded penetrating meplat. This is why i personally prefer Ranger-T and Golden Saber [and to a lesser degree HST]


Ranger/Black Talons have great hype, err, marketing behind them, that ill grant you. Gold Dots have performed well for me in dry as well as wet media, and pig carcasses. Additionally, they dont have the "evil cop killer" stigma attached to them that Black Talons do. I have no doubt that Rangers are effective, I just prefer Gold Dots.

Link Posted: 9/14/2009 4:05:11 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/16/2009 12:43:57 PM EST
Useless trivia:

Winchester stopped production of Black Talons in '00 and had only been selling to LEAs since '93.

The black coating is Lubalox, not teflon, and doesn't do anything to increase penetration of armor.

There are no documented cases of doctors, medics, or similar having their gloves torn or skin cut while fixing the damage caused by a Black Talon.

There is no ban, they aren't outlawed, and the only reason they aren't made anymore is the wearing of frilly pink panties by Winchester, who buckled under pressure from libtards that called BTs "cop killers".
Link Posted: 9/16/2009 3:52:13 PM EST
Originally Posted By SniperKage:
Useless trivia:

Winchester stopped production of Black Talons in '00 and had only been selling to LEAs since '93.

The black coating is Lubalox, not teflon, and doesn't do anything to increase penetration of armor.

There are no documented cases of doctors, medics, or similar having their gloves torn or skin cut while fixing the damage caused by a Black Talon.

There is no ban, they aren't outlawed, and the only reason they aren't made anymore is the wearing of frilly pink panties by Winchester, who buckled under pressure from libtards that called BTs "cop killers".


Another useless fact is that some standard issue vests of the time were penetrated in testing with the 127gr +P+ loading, which only threw fuel on the "cop-killer" fire.
Link Posted: 9/16/2009 8:30:23 PM EST

Originally Posted By 12_gauge:
Another useless fact is that some standard issue vests of the time were penetrated in testing with the 127gr +P+ loading, which only threw fuel on the "cop-killer" fire.

Yup, but I believe those were II-A vests, which barely stop a spitwad
Link Posted: 9/16/2009 9:27:01 PM EST
Originally Posted By SniperKage:
Useless trivia:

There is no ban, they aren't outlawed, and the only reason they aren't made anymore is the wearing of frilly pink panties by Winchester, who buckled under pressure from libtards that called BTs "cop killers".



I too felt as though Winchester should've stood up for their product by holding press conferences to dispel the myths about the Black Talon line.
However, their decision to drop the line, and change the name, probably prevented an even worse media-storm from kicking in and getting a new-and-improved 'cop killer' ammunition ban passed into law.
Can you imagine what that would have been like? Perhaps a ban on any pistol ammunition containing a bullet with a hollow cavity?

-Allen
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