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Posted: 5/20/2005 6:30:58 AM EDT
I was interested in getting a 1911 until I saw a shoot out on TV. I think it was on Cops or Real TV.
Anyway, there was a jeweler who saw a strange customer enter his store. He suspected that this guy wanted to rob his store and he was carring a 1911. The POS thief pulled a gun and the jeweler pulled his 1911 but when he pulled the trigger there was no bang. To make a long story short, the jeweler got shot but lived - thank God. This was all seen on the store video tape. When he reviewed the tape he forgot that his safty was on and in all the excitement forgot to switch it off.

Do 1911s safty have to be on when holstered? Whats the deal with the 1911 safty?

I have owned a few sigs and love that fact that there isnt a safty. The 10lb/4lb DA/SA is enough IMHO to keep it safe. I know that once I pull my 226R (40cal) all I have to do is squeeze the trigger. The fist shot is 10lbs, unless I cock the trigger first, and the rest are 4lbs. This would have prevented the jeweler from getting shot. In the heat of battle I wouldnt want to fumble around with the safty. Because I never owned a 1911, but hear great things about it, I was curious as to the safty question.

PS The jeweler stated that he has trained with his pistol and was familiar with the 1911.
Link Posted: 5/20/2005 6:50:04 AM EDT
I would never carry my 1911 with the safety off. Don't want to blow my balls off accidentally. I dont think the jeweler was familar or well trained with his 1911 or he would have not forgot to take the safety off. My .02

556man
Link Posted: 5/20/2005 7:00:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/20/2005 7:02:16 AM EDT by Mr45auto]
The jeweler was embarrassed and lied. If you've trained with it you'll never forget it. It's instinct after awhile, simple as that. I carry a P220 at work but have carried my M1911s since about 1992. Previous to that I carried only DA 9mm autos and revolvers. A little competitive shooting showed me how far behind I was with the DAs so I bought a 1911 never expecting to carry it anywhere but at the matches. I am much faster and more accurate with the 1911 than I could ever have been with a DA or revolver. I am faster and more accurate than with my Glock (KB and sold!)22. The safety has never been an issue, my thumb knows to flick it off when on target and on when the muzzle leaves the target. I dont even think about it, it just happens. I do however need to conciously think about dropping the hammer on my sig.

Never carry a 1911 cocked and unlocked. Even though you have the grip safety it's just dumb. Carry a 1911 cocked and locked like they're supposed to be.
Link Posted: 5/20/2005 7:15:44 AM EDT
Sometimes when shooting under stress you can fail to get a proper grip on the pistol and not disengage the grip safety. Therefore, some people, (mostly competition shooters, not recommended for LE or CCW) will pin the grip safety in place.

I'd never consider carrying a 1911 without all safety devises in place and functioning as designed.
Link Posted: 5/20/2005 7:19:18 AM EDT
yes, i would safety the 1911 when holstered; the usual (nowadays) grip and lever safety are nice ot have

i think that the jewler guy was bull jibing
Link Posted: 5/20/2005 7:20:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By kyreb:
Sometimes when shooting under stress you can fail to get a proper grip on the pistol and not disengage the grip safety. Therefore, some people, (mostly competition shooters, not recommended for LE or CCW) will pin the grip safety in place.

I'd never consider carrying a 1911 without all safety devises in place and functioning as designed.



Most new 1911s have that goofy hump on the bottom of the grip safety to eliminate this.
Btw, I grind the damned hump off, it doesnt feel right
Link Posted: 5/20/2005 7:25:11 AM EDT
Yeah, I'm not trained on the 1911 but I'm experienced with shooting them, and I can't see how anybody could forget to turn the safety off. It's pretty obvious and your thumb kind of naturally goes there anyways, so I don't see how the jeweler managed to screw up like that. Good thing he survived at least.
Link Posted: 5/20/2005 8:05:31 AM EDT
He should have trained more and built up more muscle memory

I would rather concentrate in just pulling the trigger especially in a gun fight
I believe in the KISS method
The less you have to think about the better

Do you 1911 owners feel that flipping the safty delays your shooting time or hinders target acquisition?

Just wondering since I have little experience with 1911s.
Link Posted: 5/20/2005 8:07:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 556man:
I would never carry my 1911 with the safety off. Don't want to blow my balls off accidentally. I dont think the jeweler was familar or well trained with his 1911 or he would have not forgot to take the safety off. My .02

556man



That's all that needed to be said.

Link Posted: 5/20/2005 8:25:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sigsauer201:


Do you 1911 owners feel that flipping the safty delays your shooting time or hinders target acquisition?

Just wondering since I have little experience with 1911s.

No more so than with any other pistol, because personally, I always have the safety engaged until I bring the weapon to bear, no matter what type of gun it is.
Link Posted: 5/20/2005 8:32:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Zardoz:

Originally Posted By sigsauer201:


Do you 1911 owners feel that flipping the safty delays your shooting time or hinders target acquisition?

Just wondering since I have little experience with 1911s.

No more so than with any other pistol, because personally, I always have the safety engaged until I bring the weapon to bear, no matter what type of gun it is.



Some guns like Sigs dont have a safty
Link Posted: 5/20/2005 8:43:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sigsauer201:

Originally Posted By Zardoz:

Originally Posted By sigsauer201:


Do you 1911 owners feel that flipping the safty delays your shooting time or hinders target acquisition?

Just wondering since I have little experience with 1911s.

No more so than with any other pistol, because personally, I always have the safety engaged until I bring the weapon to bear, no matter what type of gun it is.



Some guns like Sigs dont have a safty

Call me old-fashioned, but I like to see an external safety lever on whatever pistol I'm gonna be shooting. Sigs and Glocks are both well-made weapons, but they just aren't my cup of tea.
Link Posted: 5/20/2005 9:28:53 AM EDT
I carry a glock but I have some 1911s and when ever I dry fire or prctice drawing them I always do the manual saftey for that reason. I have thought about that and it should just be something you do automaticly if you do train with one. I think to many people who carry pistols are like the deer hunters in Utah that rush to Wal-Mart and buy a rifle a day before they go hunting and do not even shoot it before they go. If I carry one of my 1911s the saftey will be on for sure.
Link Posted: 5/20/2005 9:58:21 AM EDT
I saw that episode....it was World's Wildest Police Videos. The gun that the jewler was carrying wasn't a 1911....too small, unless it was a micro-compact. It's hard to see much in the grainy survelliance video. It was a 1911 in the re-enactment, but those are usually embellished for drama and excitement.

I've been carrying a 1911 for over 10 years, and if that guy was familiar with his gun and had training, I'm the Pope.
Link Posted: 5/20/2005 10:02:12 AM EDT
I was taught to have your thumb ride the safety while firing it for proper aiming. Muscle memory automatically tells you to pop that safety down when you get in a situation.
Link Posted: 5/20/2005 10:35:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/20/2005 10:35:59 AM EDT by Green_Canoe]
If it's the story I have heard, it was a Walther PP/PPK.

My 1911 safety "majically" flips off when it is removed from the holster.

As was said above, the jewler thought buying a gun made him a gunfighter. Having a gun is only one piece of the puzzle.

Kent
Link Posted: 5/20/2005 10:49:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/20/2005 10:50:35 AM EDT by AJohnston]

Originally Posted By Colt45guy:
... The gun that the jewler was carrying wasn't a 1911....too small, unless it was a micro-compact...



That’s my recollection as well. If this is the incident I’m thinking of the jeweler was located some place in FL. and had been robbed before and subsequently decided to arm himself. If my memory serves me, the gun the jeweler was actually using was a Smith and Wesson auto of some sort and the “safety” he forgot to disengage was actually the slide mounted de-cocking lever/safety.

No doubt about it poor training and lack of familiarity with ones weapon would have a bit to do with the out come of that situation and it is a further example of how one will fight like one has trained. If you train in a goofy way, you will fight in a goofy way.

To that end, the same thing applies to the 1911. One will fight as one has trained. Is the safety a hindrance? Only if you fall short to train and fail to learn how to use it.
Link Posted: 5/20/2005 6:11:07 PM EDT
I agree about the training but you cant beat the KISS theory
In battle, KISS is better
Link Posted: 5/20/2005 9:23:33 PM EDT
For people who actually practice with their gun, worrying about remembering to take off the safety in an emergency is as relevant as people who are afraid to drive because they might forget to hit the brake pedal if a child crosses in front of them.

After a while, it's so automatic is't a non-issue. As for any delay in flicking the safety off, that's another non-issue, you flick the safety off while the gun travels from holster to aiming position. Actually, your thumb is on the safety, and the safety gets flicked off when the gun is on target. There is absolutely NO delay whatsoever. Try to find some videos of IDPA/IPSC matches. A lot of the guys shoot 1911s, they all start on condition 1 (safety on). See how fast some people can be, and still be safe.
Link Posted: 5/20/2005 9:50:06 PM EDT
I used to have a Walther PPK/S .380 ACP and used to carry it concealed (CCW). The safety lever of the PPK is small and awkward to operate quickly, so I always carry it with the safety off.

Now I have a Sig P226, Glock 19 and also a 1911 and I'm not comfortable carrying my Sig and Glock because it doesn't have a safety (I must be getting old). I prefer carrying my 1911 cocked and locked which could be due to my combat competition experience in the '80s.

Removing the safety before firing doesn't really slow anybody down, I usually take the safety off when the gun is halfway between the holster and the target.

In my opinion, the main advantage of the manual safety would be when the gun gets taken away by the criminal. A lot of police officers are alive today because of the manual safety.
Link Posted: 5/20/2005 10:34:25 PM EDT
On the flip side of the argument, there was another jeweler who was robbed while carrying an H&K P7 squeeze-cocker. The robber managed to get the jewelers pistol, then tried several times to shoot the jeweler. He couldn't figure out the mechanism of the pistol, and ended up running out of the place.

Last time I looked into it there were no documented cases of a trained officer being killed due to his failure to disengage the safety of his 1911. On the flip side of that coin it takes an untrained individual an average of less than two (IIRC, but it may be one) seconds to discharge a loaded handgun without a safety. Put a mechanical safety into the equasion, it goes up to 17 seconds. It's cheap insurance against a snatch.

I actually find the 1911 to be faster for the first shot than a Sig. The safety comes off as I'm coming "on target", and all I have to get through is a single action pull as opposed to the Sig's DA pull. I've been around 1911s my entire life, and it's just instictive. My thumb sweeps down the side of all pistols that I shoot, it's just habit. Maybe it's because I've got a lot of experiance with them, but I can't see how your could miss the safety on a 1911/Browning HP/HK USP/CZ etc when you present it. Part of the wonder of the 1911, it seems to have been built to work with the human hand (IMHO).

I DO however, find it difficult to hit slide mounted safeties (al la Beretta 92) consistantley. Maybe I haven't spent enough time using the system.

Regarding your other question, I think a 1911 should be carried in Condition 1. While "Condition Zero" (safety off, loaded chamber, hammer back) carry is possible with the 1911 (this mode of carry is even rumored to have been used by some "special operations" types during WWII), I'm not comfortable with it. The grip safety and half-cock safety do help protect against an ND, but the thumb safety is cheap insurance.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 3:10:50 AM EDT
A lot of good info here guys
Maybe I have to get a 1911 and try it for myself
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 3:18:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/21/2005 3:20:12 AM EDT by Colt45guy]
go to a range that rents guns and try one out. You'll understand why some of us are such rabid 1911 fans after a few shots


If you were closer, I'd offer to let you shoot mine---you've heard of Black Rifle Disease? Welcome to 1911 Fever...ya just gotta spread it!
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 3:18:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sigsauer201:
Do you 1911 owners feel that flipping the safty delays your shooting time or hinders target acquisition?





No
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 10:45:06 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 10:46:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Originally Posted By sigsauer201:
Do you 1911 owners feel that flipping the safty delays your shooting time or hinders target acquisition?





No



+1.

If someone as clumsy as me can use it with reasonable speed, it's good.

Link Posted: 5/21/2005 11:03:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/21/2005 11:03:47 AM EDT by Stryfe]

Originally Posted By arowneragain:

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Originally Posted By sigsauer201:
Do you 1911 owners feel that flipping the safty delays your shooting time or hinders target acquisition?





No



+1.

If someone as clumsy as me can use it with reasonable speed, it's good.



It doesn't even take much practice to learn.
When I first got my 1911 I took to it like a duck to water. The safety really does magically come off when you want it to.
Now those other pistols where you have to flip it the wrong way...
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 11:23:15 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 1:38:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:

Originally Posted By sigsauer201:
Do you 1911 owners feel that flipping the safty delays your shooting time or hinders target acquisition?






Yes it slows you down...thats why its THE handgun of choice of some of our nations most elite military and police units and why it dominates games of speed like steel plate shooting and IPSC.



I shoot ARs, AKs and handguns on a weekly basis. There is nothing and I mean nothing as addictive as a well tuned 1911 in .45ACP. If I could only own a single handgun that would be the one.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 3:05:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/21/2005 3:08:29 PM EDT by MuRDoC]
I love the 1911 but you have to know how it works. I took a buddy who's on leave from Iraq out shooting today, his last day here for at least two years, so I take him out and let him shoot anything he wants, so he pics my glock(36), he shoots 5mags and switches to my 1911, I chamber a round flick on the saftey and set it down for him, I had run over how it works and he said he knew so he goes to shoot it and it won't fire, I tell him "thumb safety" and he drops the mag. So ya got to at least learn it when ya first get it, you should't have any problems with it ever, if you really think you might forget to turn the safety off, you'll most likely obsess about it and you'll find yourself clicking the safty(off and on) in your sleep, you'll have it down when you need it
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 5:33:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By kyreb:
Sometimes when shooting under stress you can fail to get a proper grip on the pistol and not disengage the grip safety. Therefore, some people, (mostly competition shooters, not recommended for LE or CCW) will pin the grip safety in place.

I'd never consider carrying a 1911 without all safety devises in place and functioning as designed.


+1. The sweep of the thumb safety then a grip which will compress the grip safety can be a problem. Fortunately there are after market grip and thumb safety's to help with this.
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 2:35:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:

Originally Posted By sigsauer201:
Do you 1911 owners feel that flipping the safty delays your shooting time or hinders target acquisition?






Yes it slows you down...thats why its THE handgun of choice of some of our nations most elite military and police units and why it dominates games of speed like steel plate shooting and IPSC.



It's really what you are used to. According to my shot timer I am faster with my Glocks than I am my Kimber BUT I'm more accurate with my 1911. I have made improvements on my times and brought them down to a number that is close to my Glocks but I'm not there yet (2-3 tenths slower at this point).

However, I'm confident with more practice I'll even them up before to long.
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