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Link Posted: 1/11/2021 8:58:24 PM EST
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Originally Posted By CRsmoker250:

I used to carry one of these, great gun
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Originally Posted By CRsmoker250:
Originally Posted By ztug:
When I feel the need to carry more than my pocket pistol I carry a double stack. 45


https://i.imgur.com/1SbLKPq.jpg

I used to carry one of these, great gun


It doesn't make sense, but I actually shoot it better than I shoot my Gold Cup national match. Maybe it's the slightly thicker grip?
Link Posted: 1/11/2021 9:03:10 PM EST
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Originally Posted By BackCat:
It's a matter of personal preference. I'd wager that people EDC single stacks vs doubles anyway especially over the past decade. All these millions of gun owners have not been slaughtered because of it. I have not once heard of an epidemic of American gun owners who were carrying single stacks or revolver running out of ammo during a gun fight, and being killed or shot afterwards. The only place I hear all the hypothetical gun fights with a pack of armed thugs, drug cartels, mass shooters, and terrorists or on gun forums. In reality, a 1911 or the like and maybe a spare mag for good measure is more than enough unless you're L.E. or living in a war zone.

It's funny how 1911s get ragged on but Shields, Ruger LCPs and EC9s, Walther PPS, Glock 43 and 48, so on and countless others do not get ragged on. Then if you're going to bring up weight, the fact that the 1911 weighs more makes it a supior shooter vs light weight polyer while still being easier to conceal vs a double stack. If you can carry the weigh and need more concealment, a 1911 excells. Whether one is better than the other is all personal based on which you shoot better and can comfortably carry and conceal.

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I'm not saying it could never happen, but in the 40 years that I've been carrying concealed, I've never run out of ammo.
Link Posted: 1/11/2021 9:23:49 PM EST
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Originally Posted By EXCATM76:




Hahahahaha.

I trained USAF personnel in the use of small arms, including the M9 and M11, everyday for 4 years. I’ve trained somewhere in the neighborhood of 20,000 people in the use of small arms and probably about 6,000 of those where trained to use a handgun.

A modern 1911 and USGI 1911 are night and day. There is a reason why people started modifying the 1911 decades ago.

You realize they make 1911s in 9mm right?


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Hey! Wait a minute! GI 1911A1s very dependable and shoot very accurately as long as they aren't worn out old piece of crap which is probably what you were mostly dealing with. But I've got a couple of nicely rebuilt ones, one by the Marines at Albany Georgia and the other by Anniston Army Depot that shoot very well and are still dependable. (They don't even rattle!)

My humble opinion, as just a civilian RSO, is that most 1911s that are not Dependable are ones that people have "accurized"!



Link Posted: 1/11/2021 10:44:18 PM EST
Originally Posted By ztug:


I'm not saying it could never happen, but in the 40 years that I've been carrying concealed, I've never run out of ammo.
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Ever have to use it.??
Link Posted: 1/11/2021 10:56:14 PM EST
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Originally Posted By ztug:



Hey! Wait a minute! GI 1911A1s very dependable and shoot very accurately as long as they aren't worn out old piece of crap which is probably what you were mostly dealing with. But I've got a couple of nicely rebuilt ones, one by the Marines at Albany Georgia and the other by Anniston Army Depot that shoot very well and are still dependable. (They don't even rattle!)

My humble opinion, as just a civilian RSO, is that most 1911s that are not Dependable are ones that people have "accurized"!

https://i.imgur.com/NnCg7jr.jpg

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Can you point out where I said GI 1911s where inaccurate or unreliable? I said modernized 1911s are easier for most people to shoot accurately than a GI 1911 with tiny sights, a mil-spec trigger, tiny safety and no beaver tail. There is a reason when elite units issue the 1911, they have all the bells an whistles. There is a reason top shooting sport competitors don’t use USGI 1911s.

As to wether a tight gun is more or less reliable, it really depends on who built it. Every Dan Wesson I have owned was very tight and 100% reliable. Wilson, 10-8 and Springfield Custom Shop all build tight guns that run and run. However most shooters won’t benefit from a tight 1911, they will benefit from better sights, better trigger, lowered and flared ejection port, wider thumb safety and a beaver tail.
Link Posted: 1/11/2021 11:04:06 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Harv24:



Ever have to use it.??
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Originally Posted By Harv24:
Originally Posted By ztug:


I'm not saying it could never happen, but in the 40 years that I've been carrying concealed, I've never run out of ammo.



Ever have to use it.??

I've just had to show it twice. After they saw it they change their minds.
And strangely enough they didn't ask what caliber it was or how many rounds were in it.
Link Posted: 1/11/2021 11:10:06 PM EST
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Originally Posted By EXCATM76:


Can you point out where I said GI 1911s where inaccurate or unreliable? I said modernized 1911s are easier for most people to shoot accurately than a GI 1911 with tiny sights, a mil-spec trigger, tiny safety and no beaver tail. There is a reason when elite units issue the 1911, they have all the bells an whistles. There is a reason top shooting sport competitors don’t use USGI 1911s.

As to wether a tight gun is more or less reliable, it really depends on who built it. Every Dan Wesson I have owned was very tight and 100% reliable. Wilson, 10-8 and Springfield Custom Shop all build tight guns that run and run. However most shooters won’t benefit from a tight 1911, they will benefit from better sights, better trigger, lowered and flared ejection port, wider thumb safety and a beaver tail.
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Originally Posted By EXCATM76:
Originally Posted By ztug:



Hey! Wait a minute! GI 1911A1s very dependable and shoot very accurately as long as they aren't worn out old piece of crap which is probably what you were mostly dealing with. But I've got a couple of nicely rebuilt ones, one by the Marines at Albany Georgia and the other by Anniston Army Depot that shoot very well and are still dependable. (They don't even rattle!)

My humble opinion, as just a civilian RSO, is that most 1911s that are not Dependable are ones that people have "accurized"!

https://i.imgur.com/NnCg7jr.jpg



Can you point out where I said GI 1911s where inaccurate or unreliable? I said modernized 1911s are easier for most people to shoot accurately than a GI 1911 with tiny sights, a mil-spec trigger, tiny safety and no beaver tail. There is a reason when elite units issue the 1911, they have all the bells an whistles. There is a reason top shooting sport competitors don’t use USGI 1911s.

As to wether a tight gun is more or less reliable, it really depends on who built it. Every Dan Wesson I have owned was very tight and 100% reliable. Wilson, 10-8 and Springfield Custom Shop all build tight guns that run and run. However most shooters won’t benefit from a tight 1911, they will benefit from better sights, better trigger, lowered and flared ejection port, wider thumb safety and a beaver tail.



You mean like this one?
;)
Link Posted: 1/11/2021 11:12:24 PM EST
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Originally Posted By TacticalGarand44:

And what does that have to do with energy/mass equivalence?
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Originally Posted By TacticalGarand44:
Originally Posted By 03RN:
Originally Posted By TacticalGarand44:
Originally Posted By shotar:
Originally Posted By 45-Seventy:


Cool.  Show me how it’s a lot better.


I don't have time to review every OIS or animal shooting I've dealt with over the last 30 years. Ballpark is 30% more 9mm fired to stop action over .40. That includes people and wounded deer. For a scientific explanation the formula is E=Mc2.  .40 has more E=Mc2 than 9.

Energy/mass equivalence has nothing to do with terminal ballistics.


The more energy a projectile has the better chances it performs better after penetrating hard things.

There's some really good 9mm ammo out there. Hornady has the entire FBI tests on their website for their 135gr +p critical duty. Best presentation Ive seen a company do.


And what does that have to do with energy/mass equivalence?



I dont think it does. I also wasn't taking that comment seriously.
Link Posted: 1/11/2021 11:43:17 PM EST
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Originally Posted By ztug:

I've just had to show it twice. After they saw it they change their minds.
And strangely enough they didn't ask what caliber it was or how many rounds were in it.
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So, by that standard it would be equally as effective to carry a movie prop gun... maybe a cap gun.

Gotcha.
Link Posted: 1/12/2021 12:00:20 AM EST
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Originally Posted By 45-Seventy:


So, by that standard it would be equally as effective to carry a movie prop gun... maybe a cap gun.

Gotcha.
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Originally Posted By 45-Seventy:
Originally Posted By ztug:

I've just had to show it twice. After they saw it they change their minds.
And strangely enough they didn't ask what caliber it was or how many rounds were in it.


So, by that standard it would be equally as effective to carry a movie prop gun... maybe a cap gun.

Gotcha.


Until they don't change their mind and ask what caliber it is.
Link Posted: 1/12/2021 9:25:22 AM EST
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Originally Posted By ztug:


Until they don't change their mind and ask what caliber it is.
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Ok.

But your standard of “I’ve never needed more ammunition in this gun I’ve never used” is meaningless.
Link Posted: 1/12/2021 1:25:11 PM EST
Originally Posted By 45-Seventy:


Ok.

But your standard of “I’ve never needed more ammunition in this gun I’ve never used” is meaningless.
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Exactly....

I hope to go 40 years and never have to show mine to anyone...(If it's coming out, it's getting used) but If I do, I want max capacity because I cannot predict what the encounter is going to be and how long it may last.

Which is why I cary in the first place.

Link Posted: 1/12/2021 2:32:56 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Harv24:
What amazes me is people still argue over pistol calibers when over 80% of those who are shot with a handgun (Of any caliber) survive.

So why would I want  less ammunition in my gun, when I can have more, so that I have a better opportunity to get accurate hits before I need to reload. and have the added benefit of less recoil to aid me in that goal.

Even CAG switched from 45ACP to .40 to 9mm.... what does that tell you???

1911's are for enthusiast's....or for those who still buy into the Myth. take your pick.
The Only reason to carry a 1911, is if you live in a 10 rd. only state.
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I wouldn't say its the only reason.  1911 grips are available in many colors and textures so your weapon can match your eye color or have the texture of your favorite fish or lizard.

I don't know that ConAgra Brands (CAG) switching from 45 ACP to 40 S&W, to 9 mm tells me much of anything, maybe that frozen food is a more dangerous industry than I thought, besides they are headquartered in Chicago, that is probably why they are armed.
Link Posted: 1/12/2021 2:37:04 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/12/2021 2:40:09 PM EST
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Originally Posted By ztug:


I'm not saying it could never happen, but in the 40 years that I've been carrying concealed, I've never run out of ammo.
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Best response in the entire string of posts!!!!!!!!!!
Link Posted: 1/12/2021 7:47:13 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Pantexan:



Best response in the entire string of posts!!!!!!!!!!
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Originally Posted By Pantexan:
Originally Posted By ztug:


I'm not saying it could never happen, but in the 40 years that I've been carrying concealed, I've never run out of ammo.



Best response in the entire string of posts!!!!!!!!!!


Not quite -- one of the most illogical if anything.
Link Posted: 1/12/2021 9:33:57 PM EST
Originally Posted By Space-Cadet:


Not quite -- one of the most illogical if anything.
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No Kidding, Someone who has NEVER carried for 40 years has never ran out of ammo either...
Link Posted: 1/12/2021 10:59:41 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Harv24:
(If it's coming out, it's getting used)
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Ive said that before. Fortunately the times Ive drawn Ive not needed to. Thats what happens when the real world crashes into theory.
Link Posted: 1/12/2021 11:36:33 PM EST
Originally Posted By 03RN:



Ive said that before. Fortunately the times Ive drawn Ive not needed to. Thats what happens when the real world crashes into theory.
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Brandishing is a real thing...Just because you were not charged, does'nt mean it can't happen.

I can think of very few scenarios where I pull my gun out and not use it.

Like running a red light... you can do it and not get in in accident, but not a great idea.
Link Posted: 1/12/2021 11:54:12 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/13/2021 12:06:50 AM EST by 762AR25]
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Originally Posted By 45-Seventy:


Just let him go, he’s rolling.
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It is boomerlogic.

OP after spending time with nearly all of them over the years I've now settled on the CZ75 platform.  Ironically it is the one I tried last.
Link Posted: 1/13/2021 4:57:07 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Harv24:

Brandishing is a real thing...Just because you were not charged, does'nt mean it can't happen.

I can think of very few scenarios where I pull my gun out and not use it.

Like running a red light... you can do it and not get in in accident, but not a great idea.
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Originally Posted By Harv24:
Originally Posted By 03RN:



Ive said that before. Fortunately the times Ive drawn Ive not needed to. Thats what happens when the real world crashes into theory.

Brandishing is a real thing...Just because you were not charged, does'nt mean it can't happen.

I can think of very few scenarios where I pull my gun out and not use it.

Like running a red light... you can do it and not get in in accident, but not a great idea.

This is wrong, wrong, wrong WRONG! You don't get charged with brandishing if you pull a gun to stop a threat!
Link Posted: 1/13/2021 7:41:02 AM EST
Originally Posted By TacticalGarand44:

This is wrong, wrong, wrong WRONG! You don't get charged with brandishing if you pull a gun to stop a threat!
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In today's environment, you better be able to prove there was a threat, justifying pulling a gun.


i would like to hear a scenario where a gun is drawn,and the threat stops.
Link Posted: 1/13/2021 7:46:00 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Harv24:


In today's environment, you better be able to prove there was a threat, justifying pulling a gun.


i would like to hear a scenario where a gun is drawn,and the threat stops.
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Originally Posted By Harv24:
Originally Posted By TacticalGarand44:

This is wrong, wrong, wrong WRONG! You don't get charged with brandishing if you pull a gun to stop a threat!


In today's environment, you better be able to prove there was a threat, justifying pulling a gun.


i would like to hear a scenario where a gun is drawn,and the threat stops.

The CDC estimates there are between 500,000 and 3 million defensive uses of a gun every year.

Things change. They change fast. Look at the case of Michael Drejka. He was shoved by a large black man. He pulled out a gun, and the man stopped in his tracks and backed off. Then Drejka shot the man, and is now doing time BECAUSE he fired after the threat was stopped.

Conditioning yourself that if you pull a gun you must shoot is WRONG. That's along the lines of the retarded boomer logic like "if you shoot a man on your doorstep, drag his body inside so it looks like he was more of a threat."
Link Posted: 1/13/2021 7:54:14 AM EST
I love shooting my Dan Wesson CBOB 1911......I will carry it sometimes, 8rnds of .45acp doesn't scare me.

On the other hand......I also love shooting my CZ P-09, and 19rnds of 9mm makes me feel much better than 8rnds of .45acp. And the CZ feel a little lighter....
Link Posted: 1/13/2021 8:14:49 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Harv24:


In today's environment, you better be able to prove there was a threat, justifying pulling a gun.


i would like to hear a scenario where a gun is drawn,and the threat stops.
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@Harv24 a guy with a ninja sword over his shoulder walks up to my driver's side door (window up) at like 1am in a bad part of Daytona Beach. I was working leaving the restaurant I worked at, otherwise I wouldn't be there. I'm boxed in by cars so he picks my window to walk up to. My P99 comes across my chest and he sees it and instantly changed direction 180*.

Daytona Beach again and live in a shitty apartment building (I'm sometimes surprised I survived my youth ) and some guy is kicking door attempting entry screaming for a girl that doesn't live there. Open door in underwear holding 12 gauge and he goes from screaming to apologizing, crying, and running away.

Both were legal shots to take. Neither had to be. I was ready and gearing up to do so but the whole point of carrying/HD is to stop the threat. If in the moment you're engaging before the shots go off the person sees what you are doing and changes their mind, well, mission accomplished.

In both above it didn't matter if the guns were loaded (they were) or if that 28" barrel was full of bird shot (it was) or the p99 was full of wwb (it was) because I was a dumb ass young dude. All that mattered was I had them when I needed them. I also left Daytona
Link Posted: 1/13/2021 10:51:14 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/13/2021 10:52:19 AM EST by airgunner]
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Originally Posted By steviesterno16:
Both were legal shots to take.
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I think you could have been very wrong about #2? Somebody kicking your door would be a hard sell for "fear for your life" in some parts of this country. You assumed he was trying to break in but how exactly would you prove that?

Laws, LEO and DA's vary greatly over this country but if you took that shot in a number of states I could see you getting nailed to the cross for it, simply on the fact that you opened the door when you didn't have to. Now had he actually broke the door open, completely different story.

Not saying what you did was wrong per say, just that it could have gone really wrong, really fast.

Sorry for the side track, now back to your regularly scheduled caliber/1911 debate
Link Posted: 1/13/2021 12:34:44 PM EST
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Originally Posted By airgunner:

I think you could have been very wrong about #2? Somebody kicking your door would be a hard sell for "fear for your life" in some parts of this country. You assumed he was trying to break in but how exactly would you prove that?

Laws, LEO and DA's vary greatly over this country but if you took that shot in a number of states I could see you getting nailed to the cross for it, simply on the fact that you opened the door when you didn't have to. Now had he actually broke the door open, completely different story.

Not saying what you did was wrong per say, just that it could have gone really wrong, really fast.

Sorry for the side track, now back to your regularly scheduled caliber/1911 debate
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@airgunner he was literally breaking down the door. Like the locks and hinges had to be replaced. I opened it to get him to stop and because I was like 23 years old. Florida at the time was also lethal force to stop a forcible felony and some misdemeanors, so by the books you were allowed to shoot someone fleeing carrying your TV.

I would not open the door again with what I have learned since then. I would have called 911 while yelling orders to leave while in a defensible position with a suppressed 300 BO SBR or 1911 with Ivory grips. I have improved since then
Link Posted: 1/13/2021 1:44:29 PM EST
Originally Posted By steviesterno16:


@airgunner he was literally breaking down the door. Like the locks and hinges had to be replaced. I opened it to get him to stop and because I was like 23 years old. Florida at the time was also lethal force to stop a forcible felony and some misdemeanors, so by the books you were allowed to shoot someone fleeing carrying your TV.

I would not open the door again with what I have learned since then. I would have called 911 while yelling orders to leave while in a defensible position with a suppressed 300 BO SBR or 1911 with Ivory grips. I have improved since then
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1911 with Ivory grips???
You have'nt improved that much....
Just funiya...
Link Posted: 1/13/2021 3:02:26 PM EST
I've felt the 1911 has been obsolescent for some time now.
If it's what you want/have you can use it and be quite effective given enough practice.
Their are guns that have surpassed it tho.
The G19 is a good standard I think.
I've become partial to some other offerings on the market like the sig SP2022 and the CZ P07.
Link Posted: 1/13/2021 4:15:26 PM EST
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Originally Posted By steviesterno16:

@airgunner he was literally breaking down the door. Like the locks and hinges had to be replaced. I opened it to get him to stop and because I was like 23 years old. Florida at the time was also lethal force to stop a forcible felony and some misdemeanors, so by the books you were allowed to shoot someone fleeing carrying your TV.

I would not open the door again with what I have learned since then. I would have called 911 while yelling orders to leave while in a defensible position with a suppressed 300 BO SBR or 1911 with Ivory grips. I have improved since then
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Definitely sounds like a better approach to me in this day and age
Link Posted: 1/13/2021 5:27:54 PM EST
I came up on 1911s and own several very nice examples but for work I prefer Glock
Link Posted: 1/13/2021 8:13:40 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Harv24:

Brandishing is a real thing...Just because you were not charged, does'nt mean it can't happen.

I can think of very few scenarios where I pull my gun out and not use it.

Like running a red light... you can do it and not get in in accident, but not a great idea.
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Originally Posted By Harv24:
Originally Posted By 03RN:



Ive said that before. Fortunately the times Ive drawn Ive not needed to. Thats what happens when the real world crashes into theory.

Brandishing is a real thing...Just because you were not charged, does'nt mean it can't happen.

I can think of very few scenarios where I pull my gun out and not use it.

Like running a red light... you can do it and not get in in accident, but not a great idea.


Every single time I would have been justified. The times where people were involved one went to the hospital the other to jail. The cops that took my statements were surprised I didn't shoot.

The dogs lived because I was drawing while I was kicking and the kicking did the job to end it.
Link Posted: 1/13/2021 8:20:38 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Harv24:


In today's environment, you better be able to prove there was a threat, justifying pulling a gun.


i would like to hear a scenario where a gun is drawn,and the threat stops.
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Originally Posted By Harv24:
Originally Posted By TacticalGarand44:

This is wrong, wrong, wrong WRONG! You don't get charged with brandishing if you pull a gun to stop a threat!


In today's environment, you better be able to prove there was a threat, justifying pulling a gun.


i would like to hear a scenario where a gun is drawn,and the threat stops.


One time I used my 1911 to break a collar bone. I was drawing as he was rushing so I had to move and there was stuff inbetween me and him while I was moving. He crumpled so I didn't shoot.

The other time the guy stopped his intentions when I drew. I was the super of a building and called the cops because they were there earlier looking for a guy who fit his description.

The times with dogs were described above.
Link Posted: 1/19/2021 5:51:55 PM EST
These questions are always fun rhetorical discussion.

Carry what you want, really. Merely brandishing a 380 pistol will dissuade an enormous percentage of perps. Perp sees gun, perp usually runs.

But, a few things:
Usually this discussion (not saying this one is), is usually a 7+1 GI model 1911 with standard pressure FMJ vs StarWars doublestack 9mm with 19+1 using +P+ high expansion rounds.

Given the comparison above, I mean, it's hard not to consider that 9mm as a better overall platform.

But what if that 1911 is no longer your granddaddy's 1911 pushing a 230 grain FMJ to 825 fps? What happens if it's a 260 grain jacketed hollowpoint doing 1050s?
What if that round is a 185 grain hollowpoint doing 1400 out of a 5.5" 1911?
The equation changes just a little bit.

I also tend to look at what likely scenario I would be in. Almost always the engagement distance is in single number of feet. not 25 feet and 10 seconds to expend all 20 rounds of whatever 9mm.
Engagement distances of less than 6 feet are extremely common. and one-round engagements are common because there simply isn't the time to get multiple rounds off.

Given that, I'll take that 1911. If I have only an opportunity for one round hitting torso shot, I want it to be that 260 round JHP doing 1050 fps. I've seen what that round does against certain media vs others. Even if it's against 2-3 perps and a moderate engagement distance, I like my odds.

That said, if I'm with someone who is carrying a 9mm anything, I don't say anything or even judge. They're stepping up to the challenge, and that is their platform. I respect them for that.  

Like I said, a fun rhetorical exercise.
Link Posted: 1/20/2021 10:26:10 AM EST
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Originally Posted By fast_fairlane:
These questions are always fun rhetorical discussion.

Carry what you want, really. Merely brandishing a 380 pistol will dissuade an enormous percentage of perps. Perp sees gun, perp usually runs.

But, a few things:
Usually this discussion (not saying this one is), is usually a 7+1 GI model 1911 with standard pressure FMJ vs StarWars doublestack 9mm with 19+1 using +P+ high expansion rounds.

Given the comparison above, I mean, it's hard not to consider that 9mm as a better overall platform.

But what if that 1911 is no longer your granddaddy's 1911 pushing a 230 grain FMJ to 825 fps? What happens if it's a 260 grain jacketed hollowpoint doing 1050s?
What if that round is a 185 grain hollowpoint doing 1400 out of a 5.5" 1911?
The equation changes just a little bit.

I also tend to look at what likely scenario I would be in. Almost always the engagement distance is in single number of feet. not 25 feet and 10 seconds to expend all 20 rounds of whatever 9mm.
Engagement distances of less than 6 feet are extremely common. and one-round engagements are common because there simply isn't the time to get multiple rounds off.

Given that, I'll take that 1911. If I have only an opportunity for one round hitting torso shot, I want it to be that 260 round JHP doing 1050 fps. I've seen what that round does against certain media vs others. Even if it's against 2-3 perps and a moderate engagement distance, I like my odds.

That said, if I'm with someone who is carrying a 9mm anything, I don't say anything or even judge. They're stepping up to the challenge, and that is their platform. I respect them for that.  

Like I said, a fun rhetorical exercise.
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wut
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