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9/19/2017 7:27:10 PM
Posted: 1/9/2006 12:46:06 PM EDT
I'm going to Afghanistan with my NG unit.
I really really want the P90 and FN 2000 (if it comes out).
If I give my father the funds to pick them (and maybe others) for me while I'm gone,
am I breaking the law? Is he?
I just dont want to come back and have them off the market.
Thanks, Midwinter
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 12:47:44 PM EDT
Yes..
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 12:48:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/9/2006 12:48:44 PM EDT by TheRedHorseman]
I'd say that it is not, assuming that you are legally capable of purchasing firearms. since last I heard a straw purchase was to buy weapons for someone unable to do so themselves due to legal issues.

one way to do this without any possibility of problem would be to order them into the shop and have them hold the rifles till you get back and then do the 4473 upon your return.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 12:48:41 PM EDT
I think it has to be stated that it's a gift for you or something like that. Straw purchase is when you buy for someone who is barred from buying/owning them.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 12:52:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
I'd say that it is not, assuming that you are legally capable of purchasing firearms. since last I heard a straw purchase was to buy weapons for someone unable to do so themselves due to legal issues.

one way to do this without any possibility of problem would be to order them into the shop and have them hold the rifles till you get back and then do the 4473 upon your return.



Why do people insist on perpetuating this myth?

The crime in a straw purchase is NOT that someone has provided a firearm to a prohibited person.

The crime is that the person filling out the 4473 makes a false statement in block 11a., by declaring that they are the actual purchaser of the firearm when they are NOT, in fact, the actual purchaser.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 12:52:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GoGop:
I think it has to be stated that it's a gift for you or something like that. Straw purchase is when you buy for someone who is barred from buying/owning them.



And again.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 12:53:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Riotgun:

The crime is that the person filling out the 4473 makes a false statement in block 11a., by declaring that they are the actual purchaser of the firearm when they are NOT, in fact, the actual purchaser.




That is my understanding also.

Link Posted: 1/9/2006 12:55:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Riotgun:

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
I'd say that it is not, assuming that you are legally capable of purchasing firearms. since last I heard a straw purchase was to buy weapons for someone unable to do so themselves due to legal issues.

one way to do this without any possibility of problem would be to order them into the shop and have them hold the rifles till you get back and then do the 4473 upon your return.



Why do people insist on perpetuating this myth?

The crime in a straw purchase is NOT that someone has provided a firearm to a prohibited person.

The crime is that the person filling out the 4473 makes a false statement in block 11a., by declaring that they are the actual purchaser of the firearm when they are NOT, in fact, the actual purchaser.



well technically the father would the the "actual purchaser" as he is puchasing it. but then again that is also why I put option two into my original post.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 12:56:14 PM EDT
Have your father purchase them with his own funds while your away and THEN buy them from him when you retrun... Problem solved.... As long as he is not buying them with your money, he CAN resell them after they are his....
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 12:58:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/9/2006 3:18:36 PM EDT by fight4yourrights]
ILLEGAL


The buyer would be in trouble for making a false statement on the 4473 - claiming they were the actual buyer and the gun is for them.


A gift is okay.


WATCH THIS ATF VIDEO:

ATF Straw Purchase Guide
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 12:58:28 PM EDT
Your Father can buy whatever he wants, assuming he isn't a felon. If he takes a notion to sell them, that is his right.

If face to face sales are legal in your state, you could possibly be the buyer. If you are worried, have the transfer between you and him done through a FFL.



Link Posted: 1/9/2006 1:20:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:
ILLEGAL

The buyer would be in trouble for making a false statement on the 4473 - claiming they were the actual buyer and the gun is for them.

A gift is okay.

WATCH THIS ATF VIDEO:

ATF Straw Purchase Guide


F4YR,

That link was to a jpg image of the Colliseum in Rome.

I think you meant to link to this:

www.atf.gov/firearms/ffrrg/

Click on "Theater" from the top bar, then click on the image for "Learning Theater 4: Straw Purchase Attempt" (clicking on the hyperlink will just take you to the HTML page for the transcript)

Link Posted: 1/9/2006 1:23:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By pcsutton:
Your Father can buy whatever he wants, assuming he isn't a felon. If he takes a notion to sell them, that is his right.

If face to face sales are legal in your state, you could possibly be the buyer. If you are worried, have the transfer between you and him done through a FFL.


+1. Have yer old man run a few thousand rounds through them while you're gone. If they're really his, he should get to enjoy them.

Oh, and fair is fair: Under normal circumstances, you should buy them back less any depreciation (). Then again, the flip-side is: if new AWB makes them prohibited, they're worth more.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 1:44:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/9/2006 1:45:29 PM EDT by DasRonin]
Pick a dealer. Place a considerable deposit for the weapons you want. Tell him you will pick them up after return from deployment. When they show, pay or have someone take payment and do the forms and take delivery after you return.

Ask if at the time of deposit it would be legal to complete the forms and they can fill in the serial numbers when they arrive.

That way you have paid, you have completed the forms... and they can hold the weapons for your return. You might offer a "storage fee" to the dealer for keeping the weapons until your return. You might have to again complete forms to take actual possession at the time of the "Instant check".

Find a good dealer and work with them. If they are out of state and willing to "store" the weapons you have paid for until your return, they can then "transfer" them to your local gunshop for the typical transfer fee.

I went off for several months of training. I ordered and paid for a Benelli shotgun. He held it for my return and after doing the ATF paperwork I took it home.

Find a dealer who can get what you want and discuss this with him. He won't do anything illegal and should be able to help solve your problem and make some money on the sales.

Just a thought!
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 1:47:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Riotgun:

Originally Posted By GoGop:
I think it has to be stated that it's a gift for you or something like that. Straw purchase is when you buy for someone who is barred from buying/owning them.



And again.



At least I started it with "I think.." because I wasn't sure.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 1:56:17 PM EDT
How does the place know whos money it is? Thats my question and im sticking to it.



Link Posted: 1/9/2006 1:58:58 PM EDT
If he's legal to buy them, he can buy them. Then, if you're legal to buy them, you can buy it from him. Why not?
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 2:01:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Greenhorn:
If he's legal to buy them, he can buy them. Then, if you're legal to buy them, you can buy it from him. Why not?



You beat me to it! It doesn't get any simpler than that.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 2:01:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/9/2006 2:03:22 PM EDT by OBird]
I'm not entirely sure it would be illegal. The ATF makes an exception for parents/children in terms of would-be straw purchases that are considered "gifts." There is technically nothing to suggest that the word "gift" requires that your father must provide all the money for it. Is it a gift if you pay for everything except one penny? Is it not a gift if you father pays for everything except one cent? Such questions are aparently left unanswered by the ATF. After all, the money isn't really what matters: you could go to any gun store in America and give anyone money to buy any gun they wanted, but it doesn't matter as long as they actually make the purchase and take control of the firearm. In your case, your father is allowed to put his name in the little box in your place and assume control of the firearm in your stead (see video). The money is not important, it's who takes control of the gun that matters. And in the case of father/son, even the controler of the gun really doesn't seem to matter much in this case.

There was at least one other straw-purchase thread here where an FFL dealer chimed in and stated that a situation roughly equal to what you have described is legal and is done all the time.

Link Posted: 1/9/2006 2:26:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By OBird:
I'm not entirely sure it would be illegal. The ATF makes an exception for parents/children in terms of would-be straw purchases that are considered "gifts." There is technically nothing to suggest that the word "gift" requires that your father must provide all the money for it. Is it a gift if you pay for everything except one penny? Is it not a gift if you father pays for everything except one cent? Such questions are aparently left unanswered by the ATF. After all, the money isn't really what matters: you could go to any gun store in America and give anyone money to buy any gun they wanted, but it doesn't matter as long as they actually make the purchase and take control of the firearm. In your case, your father is allowed to put his name in the little box in your place and assume control of the firearm in your stead (see video). The money is not important, it's who takes control of the gun that matters. And in the case of father/son, even the controler of the gun really doesn't seem to matter much in this case.

There was at least one other straw-purchase thread here where an FFL dealer chimed in and stated that a situation roughly equal to what you have described is legal and is done all the time.


Who says that the "gift" is the actual firearm? The "gift" is him receiving/holding them for you.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 2:39:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By wise_jake:

Originally Posted By OBird:
I'm not entirely sure it would be illegal. The ATF makes an exception for parents/children in terms of would-be straw purchases that are considered "gifts." There is technically nothing to suggest that the word "gift" requires that your father must provide all the money for it. Is it a gift if you pay for everything except one penny? Is it not a gift if you father pays for everything except one cent? Such questions are aparently left unanswered by the ATF. After all, the money isn't really what matters: you could go to any gun store in America and give anyone money to buy any gun they wanted, but it doesn't matter as long as they actually make the purchase and take control of the firearm. In your case, your father is allowed to put his name in the little box in your place and assume control of the firearm in your stead (see video). The money is not important, it's who takes control of the gun that matters. And in the case of father/son, even the controler of the gun really doesn't seem to matter much in this case.

There was at least one other straw-purchase thread here where an FFL dealer chimed in and stated that a situation roughly equal to what you have described is legal and is done all the time.


Who says that the "gift" is the actual firearm? The "gift" is him receiving/holding them for you.



My point exactly.

"Dad, can I get a WASR-10 for Christmas?" "Allright kid, I'll allow one in the house and buy it for you....but you gotta pay for it". There is nothing (legally) to suggest this hypothetical situation is any less considered a "gift" by the ATF than if the father pays for the whole thing. After all, if there were a capital-source requirement for the term "gift," you'd think the ATF would've said something, don't you? But they didn't.

In fact, IIRC (NOT SURE ON THIS ONE), this is quite close to the situation we had in the whole Sarah Brady violating-her-own-law fiasco, and she was never found guilty of any straw purchasing.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 2:50:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
I'd say that it is not, assuming that you are legally capable of purchasing firearms. since last I heard a straw purchase was to buy weapons for someone unable to do so themselves due to legal issues.

That's how I see it.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 3:03:37 PM EDT
Damn people!

Have your Dad buy the firearms. When ya get home hug your Dad and take the flippin' guns.

Some of ya'll make this so frickin' complicated. Geeeez!
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 3:19:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By wise_jake:


That link was to a jpg image of the Colliseum in Rome.

I think you meant to link to this:

www.atf.gov/firearms/ffrrg/

Click on "Theater" from the top bar, then click on the image for "Learning Theater 4: Straw Purchase Attempt" (clicking on the hyperlink will just take you to the HTML page for the transcript)






Crud. Fixed link: ATF Straw Purchase Guide
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 3:25:20 PM EDT
How long will you be gone for?
If your parents don't buy you the gun, then give it to you the next day, straw purchase is hard to prove.
Of course, with this thread....

Also, how many people have been charged with straw purchase who were not criminals?
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 3:25:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/9/2006 3:30:13 PM EDT by txgp17]
Carla is hot!
Seems like Mr. Lucas is hittin' on her.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 7:40:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By txgp17:
Carla is hot!
Seems like Mr. Lucas is hittin' on her.




He's tryin' to make her moist little mortal panties drop with his extensive gunshop-fu knowledge.

Jake.

P.S. F4YR...... it was still a good pic, man.
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