i met some folks the other day that were old family friends of my wife. turns out they are wiccan(sp).
so what is this? from what i found in a quick google search, it looks like a bunch of hogwash to me.
the wife and i are firm believers that if its not about jesus, then its really not all that important. i was curious as to what floats these peoples boat however. they seemed normal enough, religon never came into discustion durring my brief incounter with them. i am just wondering what any of you might know about this belief, i am certainly not looking to convert, just wondering about wicca so i am a little more informed.

My girflriend who lived with me for 5 years was a Wiccan.  Its a modern recreation of the pagan religion in pre-Christian Europe.

Its hard to pin down what your friends believe as Wicca has a wide variety of "sects"  

My girlfriend was a practicer of Pictish Wicca (Scottish Wicca) and its a bit different than some of the more mainstream versions.

This is a good overview

www.religioustolerance.org/witchcra.htm

One common misconception is they worship the devil.  Nothing could be farther from the truth.  

I'm not sure how this religion is any less valid than Christianity, Islam, Judaism etc... all demand blind faith in the face of logic to the contrary. Then again, I'm an atheist so what do I know.

Quoted: I'm not sure how this religion is any less valid than Christianity, Islam, Judaism etc... all demand blind faith in the face of logic to the contrary. Then again, I'm an atheist so what do I know.

Not all.

In the book of Isaiah, Yahweh says, "Come now, let us reason together..."

He never says "Shut up and believe without asking questions."

He also promised that if you seek Him with your whole heart, genuinely wanting Him, you will find Him.

From what I've seen (not an expert nor initiate), they tend to worship nature in some form or manner.

I respect nature, but I reserve my worship for the One who created it.

I spent some time with some Pict Wita Wiccan friends.

Wita/Wicca celebrates a dual godhead of both genders. God & Goddess. It's based loosly on celtic druidism, shamanism, folklore, norse mythology, and even eastern philosophy of Taoism. In the past 10-15 years, traditional Wita has been transformed by the goth & vampire cultures into an offshoot called neo-paganism. However, it's based on a hodgepodge of ancient ideas which are loosly attached to the natural order of the seasons and nature.

They celebrate major and minor holidays called sabbats. Feasts, bonfires, etc... are part of the mix. Depending upon the group, the traditions may vary greatly from something fairly innocuous as having dinner with friends and reciting some rituals, lighting candles, etc... to full blown hedonistic celebrations, dancing skyclad (nekkid) and engaging in group sex.

They are fairly anarchistic in their views, with the witan rede being "An it harm none, do what thou wilt," which is similar to the philosophy espoused by Anton LeVay in the book, The Satanic Bible. Much confusion exists with regard to the two.

They do not 'worship Satan' in any sense, except they believe in and practice spellworking and magick.

As a Christian, my view is that they are no better or worse than any other non-Christian faith. The failure to accept Christ as the Messiah and follow the scripture is the defining line. While some would argue that magick and spellwork is 'bad' because it is imposing your own will in place of God's, I don't view that any different than they guy who tries to satisfy his own desires by blowing lots of money on material pleasures instead of helping others and doing good works.

I don't view them as being especially evil or having any other place than that of any other non-believer of Christianity.

Quoted: One common misconception is they worship the devil.  Nothing could be farther from the truth.

Some do, some don't, others do but pretend it is something else.
The most important thing however is that it is satanic in it's origin. That is all that matters.

i met some folks the other day that were old family friends of my wife. turns out they are wiccan(sp).
so what is this? from what i found in a quick google search, it looks like a bunch of hogwash to me.

It might interest you to know that people think your religious views are hogwash too. Never fails to amuse me. People who claim to be religious are the quickest to judge other people. Does not your god Christ tell you "judge not, lest ye be judged"? But then again, go ahead and ignore that and any other teachings that you don't feel apply at any moment in time just so your personal view can be validated. Seems to be about par for the course with religous types.

Salem MA is filled with info on Wiccans. We toured the Salem Witch museum not too long ago and learned that it is essentially a naturalistic belief system. One of the beliefs wiccans hold should be one we all hold: Anything good you do comes back to you. Anything bad you do comes back THREEfold.

In other words:
Karma's a b*tch.

Quoted: i met some folks the other day that were old family friends of my wife. turns out they are wiccan(sp). so what is this? from what i found in a quick google search, it looks like a bunch of hogwash to me. It might interest you to know that people think your religious views are hogwash too. Never fails to amuse me. People who claim to be religious are the quickest to judge other people. Does not your god Christ tell you "judge not, lest ye be judged"? But then again, go ahead and ignore that and any other teachings that you don't feel apply at any moment in time just so your personal view can be validated. Seems to be about par for the course with religous types.

No... this is one of the most misquoted, misapplied scriptures by Christians and non-Christians. The scripture essentially says that if you judge someone, hold yourself to the same standard.

Pluck the beam out of your own eye before you pick at the splinter in your brother's.


PlaymoreMinds... karma and God's will are incompatible. An incredible simplification of karma indicates that if you do something good, then some random collision of events throughout the universe will cause some good to come back to you. And vice versa.

And that same standard would be that other people think his religion is Hogwash. Damn your stupid!

Quoted: Quoted: i met some folks the other day that were old family friends of my wife. turns out they are wiccan(sp). so what is this? from what i found in a quick google search, it looks like a bunch of hogwash to me. It might interest you to know that people think your religious views are hogwash too. Never fails to amuse me. People who claim to be religious are the quickest to judge other people. Does not your god Christ tell you "judge not, lest ye be judged"? But then again, go ahead and ignore that and any other teachings that you don't feel apply at any moment in time just so your personal view can be validated. Seems to be about par for the course with religous types. No... this is one of the most misquoted, misapplied scriptures by Christians and non-Christians. The scripture essentially says that if you judge someone, hold yourself to the same standard. Pluck the beam out of your own eye before you pick at the splinter in your brother's. PlaymoreMinds... karma and God's will are incompatible. An incredible simplification of karma indicates that if you do something good, then some random collision of events throughout the universe will cause some good to come back to you. And vice versa.

+1



Proverbs 31:9  Open thy mouth, judge righteously, and plead the cause of the poor and needy.

Jesus said:

John 7:24  Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
Mat 7:2  For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

Paul even asks to be judged:  1Co 10:15  I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say.

Shok

Quoted: And that same standard would be that other people think his religion is Hogwash. Damn your stupid!

You sure don't want to stick around here long do you.

I don't mind you disagreeing with me or debating me.

But if you're going to break Code of Conduct with an all-out personal attack by calling me stupid, then I'd be happy to refer this topic to the forum Moderator and Staff for review. Or, would you prefer to review the CoC and apologize, proceeding forth with a little more amicable debate?

Quoted: And that same standard would be that other people think his religion is Hogwash. Damn your stupid!

The standard I go by is determine what is divine and worthy of praise and worship.  Sorry, earth centered gods/goddesses are not it.

There is only one worthy of praise, worship, and supplication.  The God of Israel who's only begotten son, Jesus Christ, died for our sins.

God bless,

Shok

Quoted: PlaymoreMinds... karma and God's will are incompatible. An incredible simplification of karma indicates that if you do something good, then some random collision of events throughout the universe will cause some good to come back to you. And vice versa.

I respectfully disagree: we are to do unto others as we would have done unto us. If we do, they do...good karma...happy God.

My neighbor is a wiccan (goes solo, no coven), and she gave me a book on the subject.  As I understand it, they worship the "god" and "goddess", putting whatever faces on them that they want (Apollo + Athena, for example).  They then have...er...charms...and...um...tools...and...spices....and...stuff.  It gets a little vague after that because it's a "do your own thing" deal.

Quoted: Quoted: PlaymoreMinds... karma and God's will are incompatible. An incredible simplification of karma indicates that if you do something good, then some random collision of events throughout the universe will cause some good to come back to you. And vice versa. I respectfully disagree: we are to do unto others as we would have done unto us. If we do, they do...good karma...happy God.

We are to do good unto others not because we in any way, shape, or form earn a favorable nod from God.  We do it because it's God's will, end of story.  It so happens that we have a gracious and loving God who forgives our sins (sending His son to die in the process).  By no means do we earn that grace and forgiveness with our "good" acts.  That is absolutely incompatible with Karma.

Quoted: Quoted: One common misconception is they worship the devil.  Nothing could be farther from the truth.   Some do, some don't, others do but pretend it is something else. The most important thing however is that it is satanic in it's origin. That is all that matters.

no, no it's not. People who worship the devil, worship the devil and are called devil worshipers, not wiccans. The devil worshipers turn the cross up side down inorder to signify the opposit of what it represents and they do the same to the pentical

Quoted: Quoted: personal attack removed The standard I go by is determine what is divine and worthy of praise and worship.  Sorry, earth centered gods/goddesses are not it. According to you.  Are you tolerant enough to accept taht others have different beliefs, and because of those beliefs, they may consider your beliefs to be hogwash, just as you consider their beliefs to be hogwash? There is only one worthy of praise, worship, and supplication.  The God of Israel who's only begotten son, Jesus Christ, died for our sins.  Again, according to you and your belief system.  There are other belief systems, which you can respect without embracing.  There's no need to be insulting or intolerant. God bless, Shok

I'm going to break my self-imposed ban and reply once, and then leave the forum for a while again.  So IM me if you want - I'll be happy to have a discussion, but I won't be posting in this thread again.

Why is it that the christian (and jewish, and muslim, to name a few) argument about why their god is right, or is the only god, or the one true god, or whatever, invariably comes down to "because this book says so".  Do you (collective you, not you personally QShok) not see the problem with trying to convince others that your god is right based on a book that is only considered holy by those already of your religion.

In other words, trying to convince a non-member of your beliefs that your god is right by telling them that your holy book says he's right because its the "word" of your god, is a circular argument, and one which will, as a result, usually be rejected.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: One common misconception is they worship the devil.  Nothing could be farther from the truth.   Some do, some don't, others do but pretend it is something else. The most important thing however is that it is satanic in it's origin. That is all that matters. no, no it's not. People who worship the devil, worship the devil and are called devil worshipers, not wiccans. The devil worshipers turn the cross up side down inorder to signify the opposit of what it represents and they do the same to the pentical

Lots of people worship the devil without putting that name on it.  There are but two gods.  The one true God, and the god of this world.  Guess who that second guy is?  If you're not worshiping the Creator of heaven and earth, you're worshiping that other guy, regardless of what name you put on it.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: One common misconception is they worship the devil.  Nothing could be farther from the truth.   Some do, some don't, others do but pretend it is something else. The most important thing however is that it is satanic in it's origin. That is all that matters. no, no it's not. People who worship the devil, worship the devil and are called devil worshipers, not wiccans. The devil worshipers turn the cross up side down inorder to signify the opposit of what it represents and they do the same to the pentical Lots of people worship the devil without putting that name on it.  There are but two gods.  The one true God, and the god of this world.  Guess who that second guy is?  If you're not worshiping the Creator of heaven and earth, you're worshiping that other guy, regardless of what name you put on it.

+1
But honestly most wiccans are the same people you see at sstar tek conventions, Dungeon and Dragon matches, etc.
People who have trouble making friends and getting girls decide to be weird and do weird shit to convince themselves of their own superiority.
They tend to become wiccans, devil worshippers, white supremacists, gun show commandos, etc.

ghey!!

Quoted: i met some folks the other day that were old family friends of my wife. turns out they are wiccan(sp). so what is this? from what i found in a quick google search, it looks like a bunch of hogwash to me. It might interest you to know that people think your religious views are hogwash too. Never fails to amuse me. People who claim to be religious are the quickest to judge other people. Does not your god Christ tell you "judge not, lest ye be judged"? But then again, go ahead and ignore that and any other teachings that you don't feel apply at any moment in time just so your personal view can be validated. Seems to be about par for the course with religous types.

sorry, didnt mean to be insensitive.
if it makes you feel anybetter, i though that the people i met were very decent folks. i was just curious as to there religious beliefs.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: PlaymoreMinds... karma and God's will are incompatible. An incredible simplification of karma indicates that if you do something good, then some random collision of events throughout the universe will cause some good to come back to you. And vice versa. I respectfully disagree: we are to do unto others as we would have done unto us. If we do, they do...good karma...happy God. We are to do good unto others not because we in any way, shape, or form earn a favorable nod from God.  We do it because it's God's will, end of story.  It so happens that we have a gracious and loving God who forgives our sins (sending His son to die in the process).  By no means do we earn that grace and forgiveness with our "good" acts.  That is absolutely incompatible with Karma.

I dunno...I am no wiccan. I DO know that "what goes around comes around."
Whether that's God at work or another force...I dunno. Don't care:
Live a good clean life and try to do the right thing. If that's not enough, well <<shrug>>

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: One common misconception is they worship the devil.  Nothing could be farther from the truth.   Some do, some don't, others do but pretend it is something else. The most important thing however is that it is satanic in it's origin. That is all that matters. no, no it's not. People who worship the devil, worship the devil and are called devil worshipers, not wiccans. The devil worshipers turn the cross up side down inorder to signify the opposit of what it represents and they do the same to the pentical Lots of people worship the devil without putting that name on it.  There are but two gods.  The one true God, and the god of this world.  Guess who that second guy is?  If you're not worshiping the Creator of heaven and earth, you're worshiping that other guy, regardless of what name you put on it.

+1!

Satan-light

Quoted: Another product of the 60s I'm afraid.  Wicca or "White Witches" is actually a new religion compared to almost all others.   It's an Earth based religion who's origin actually dates as far back as some books written in the 1940s that takes selective elements from Paganism and early Celtic religion mixed with Witchcraft.  It's popularity grew in the late 60s with the anti-war liberal hippie movement.  Though they claim neopaganism, it is far from original Paganism as you can get.

To be fair TJ, its no more a "new" religion than the sects of Christianity which claim to practice the same faith as the 1st century Christians.  ( I grew up Church of Christ, which makes that claim)

Both are modern reconstructions from what we know of the time.  

How far it is from Paganism would depend on which type of Paganism you are talking about (and which brand of Wicca).  

Quoted: i met some folks the other day that were old family friends of my wife. turns out they are wiccan(sp). so what is this? from what i found in a quick google search, it looks like a bunch of hogwash to me. It might interest you to know that people think your religious views are hogwash too. Never fails to amuse me. People who claim to be religious are the quickest to judge other people. Does not your god Christ tell you "judge not, lest ye be judged"? But then again, go ahead and ignore that and any other teachings that you don't feel apply at any moment in time just so your personal view can be validated. Seems to be about par for the course with religous types.

One man's theology is another man's belly laugh - RAH

Quoted: Quoted: One common misconception is they worship the devil.  Nothing could be farther from the truth.   Some do, some don't, others do but pretend it is something else. The most important thing however is that it is satanic in it's origin. That is all that matters.

Wiccan's do not worship the devil.

Some people claim the Catholic Church is satanic in origin.  That does not mean Catholic's are devil worshippers.

Is it possible Wiccan's are misguided tools of the devil? Of course.  Its equally possible Pat Robertson and yourself are misguided tools of the devil.

None of you would be devil worshippers though.

Quoted: Quoted: And that same standard would be that other people think his religion is Hogwash. Damn your stupid! The standard I go by is determine what is divine and worthy of praise and worship.  Sorry, earth centered gods/goddesses are not it. There is only one worthy of praise, worship, and supplication.  The God of Israel who's only begotten son, Jesus Christ, died for our sins. God bless, Shok

Funny I think neither Yawheh nor Jesus are worthy of worship.  JC at least is admirable as a person.  Yawheh, as depicted in scripture, is a petulant child.  

Quoted: Funny I think neither Yawheh nor Jesus are worthy of worship.  JC at least is admirable as a person.  Yawheh, as depicted in scripture, is a petulant child.

I wonder what people like this will say when someday God asks them exactly why they didn't think He was worthy of their worship...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quoted:

Funny I think neither Yawheh nor Jesus are worthy of worship. JC at least is admirable as a person. Yawheh, as depicted in scripture, is a petulant child.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




I wonder what people like this will say when someday God asks them exactly why they didn't think He was worthy of their worship...


There is probably as much of a chance of that as there is in talking to the Easter Bunny

I put it like this.  Wiccans are by and as a whole a peaceful people.  Wiccans are usually much more devoted to their religion than most Christians.  They are not hurting me,  in fact I've known MANY Wiccans who were all very nice and respectful.  I'll take a nice and respectful Wiccan as a friend over a bible thumping self righteous Christian any day of the week.  Plus even though as a Christian I happen to believe that my religion is right, I tend not to argue about other religions that predate mine.  To each their own.  

In my experience, Wiccan booty is pretty good.....

Quoted: In my experience, Wiccan booty is pretty good.....

If you're in southern LA, stay away from my cousin.    Unfortunately, Wicca's infected my family, too.

Quoted: There is probably as much of a chance of that as there is in talking to the Easter Bunny

You must be from Atlanta...

No, I happen to be from Blairsville. Nice try though.

Oh, by the way Muskrat. It does not matter what part of Georgia someone is from because there is a church every two feet. Even in Atlanta. It is called the bible belt for a reason.

wicca has actually been around for hundreds of years. it was founded by an englishman (forgive me i cant remember the name) who was a member of several occult organizations (of which i cannot recall either...damn.) and founded the wiccan religon to try to return to their pagan roots.

ALL pagan religons and faiths have existed before christianity (and therefore the christian concept of god and the devil) existed so therefore cannot themselves be satanic. there was no satan to worship at the time. now, mind you this is all from a historical and objective (im trying) standpoint, obviously if you're a christian then god and the devil have existed forever (except the devil, seeing as god created the angels which had to take place after god came into existance), but in the mindsets of the first pagans there was no satan to worship.

and as for us modern day pagans (not NEO-pagans, just pagans.) we are not satanic either. it is what's in our blood that makes us return to it. at least that's my viewpoint, and that of many other people i know.

like someone posted before (i dont remember who, and i forgot to hit the quote button) wicca and all pagan faiths are very individualistic. thats the beauty of it. thats also one of the things that draws people back to it, there is not church to comply with, it is just solitary soul searching. just about every other left hand path religion is the same way. and yes that includes satanists, who DO NOT worship the devil. there is a very fine line there that needs to be drawn. for a satanist to worship the devil, they would have to admit God's existance. good luck with that. the people most of you seem to be referring to are downright devil-worshippers who have no bone in their body for anything besides harming other living beings. do not confuse these people with satanists.

trying to get back on topic, if you want to know more about their beliefs, id say just ask them. im sure theyd be happy to talk about it for as long as you like, as long as they know you're doing it in a good hearted nature. seeing as wicca is so individualistc what they believe might be totally different that whats on the internet.

ask and ye shall receive.

Quoted: I don't view them as being especially evil or having any other place than that of any other non-believer of Christianity.

Interesting, because I don't place them above or below any other believers in the spirit world.

Personally, I believe "Wiccans" to be people who enjoy the social, procedural, and ritualistic aspects of religion, but don't buy what mainstream religion sells.

I've worked with some in the past and they weren't really pushy about their "religion" but they had their moments when I coud only attribute their weirdness to being "witches".

Personally I think it's a "relgion" for attention whores.

I find it's best to do the same thing I do with other religions... ignore it until it goes away.

Quoted: Oh, by the way Muskrat. It does not matter what part of Georgia someone is from because there is a church every two feet. Even in Atlanta. It is called the bible belt for a reason.

In my experience, "enlightened" latte-drinkers tend to flock to large urban centers.    And besides that, I've met alot of screwballs from Atlanta.

Quoted: Quoted: One common misconception is they worship the devil.  Nothing could be farther from the truth.   Some do, some don't, others do but pretend it is something else. The most important thing however is that it is satanic in it's origin. That is all that matters.

Since it predates Christianity, and the concept of Hell, that's a pretty stupid observation. Might want to crack open a history book once and while.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: One common misconception is they worship the devil.  Nothing could be farther from the truth.   Some do, some don't, others do but pretend it is something else. The most important thing however is that it is satanic in it's origin. That is all that matters. no, no it's not. People who worship the devil, worship the devil and are called devil worshipers, not wiccans. The devil worshipers turn the cross up side down inorder to signify the opposit of what it represents and they do the same to the pentical Lots of people worship the devil without putting that name on it.  There are but two gods.  The one true God, and the god of this world.  Guess who that second guy is?  If you're not worshiping the Creator of heaven and earth, you're worshiping that other guy, regardless of what name you put on it.

You will all follow my beliefs or you will all be wrong and worship the wrong God!  Everyone that doesn't worship my God could only possibly be worshipping Satan, as I'm too thick headed to realize that someone may not believe in either one, but have a completely different set of beliefs that have no relation to my own.

I'm Taoist, by the way.  I don't believe in any Gods, but that doesn't make me an Athiest, nor does it make me a Devil worshipper.  Wiccans on the other hand do worship Gods, but since they don't BELIEVE IN SATAN they can not worship it.

Religion is a system of beliefs and theories, based on stories told by people long gone.  There is no right or wrong, only what feels right or wrong.  You can't tell people what they worship because of your own ignorance of their beliefs.


None of this post was a flame, and the insults were too tame (in my opinion) to be a CoC violation, however if the term "thick headed" is that insulting to someone, I'll remove it, because I understand some people feel different.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: One common misconception is they worship the devil.  Nothing could be farther from the truth.   Some do, some don't, others do but pretend it is something else. The most important thing however is that it is satanic in it's origin. That is all that matters. Since it predates Christianity, and the concept of Hell, that's a pretty stupid observation. Might want to crack open a history book once and while.

Since it also predates Newtonian Mechanics and the concept of Gravity, its practitioners were not subject to such nonsense, either, right?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: One common misconception is they worship the devil.  Nothing could be farther from the truth.   Some do, some don't, others do but pretend it is something else. The most important thing however is that it is satanic in it's origin. That is all that matters. Since it predates Christianity, and the concept of Hell, that's a pretty stupid observation. Might want to crack open a history book once and while. Since it also predates Newtonian Mechanics and the concept of Gravity, its practitioners were not subject to such nonsense, either, right?

Don't be a tool.

Beliefs are based on myth, fable, and linear storytelling. How do you know about Jesus and God? Because your parents/minister/society told you. How would the Pagans worship something they'd never heard of, nor conceptualized? Did Satan show up there before God did? That must be it, because they were unaware of a Christian God but worshipped his fallen angel right?

It's convenient for you to villify a religion that Christianity replaced and hijacked (note damn near every Christian holiday is "magically" a pagan holiday renamed), but you can't change the principles of the religion just because you happen not to like it.

I suppose Buddhists and Hindis worship Lucifer too? You know, even tho they don't have a fucking clue who he is, they still worship him right?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: One common misconception is they worship the devil.  Nothing could be farther from the truth.   Some do, some don't, others do but pretend it is something else. The most important thing however is that it is satanic in it's origin. That is all that matters. Since it predates Christianity, and the concept of Hell, that's a pretty stupid observation. Might want to crack open a history book once and while. Since it also predates Newtonian Mechanics and the concept of Gravity, its practitioners were not subject to such nonsense, either, right? Don't be a tool. Beliefs are based on myth, fable, and linear storytelling. How do you know about Jesus and God? Because your parents/minister/society told you. How would the Pagans worship something they'd never heard of, nor conceptualized? Did Satan show up there before God did? That must be it, because they were unaware of a Christian God but worshipped his fallen angel right? It's convenient for you to villify a religion that Christianity replaced and hijacked (note damn near every Christian holiday is "magically" a pagan holiday renamed), but you can't change the principles of the religion just because you happen not to like it. I suppose Buddhists and Hindis worship Lucifer too? You know, even tho they don't have a fucking clue who he is, they still worship him right?

The bible is very, very clear on this issue.  You either worship God, the Creator, or you worship the god of this world.  If you're worshiping something whose principles are in direct contradiction to the word of God, you're worshiping the other guy, and guess who that other guy is?  It really doesn't matter what name you put on him.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."
1 Corinthians 1:18-19