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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 7/25/2005 7:26:00 PM EDT
I'm thinking a 14.5" M4 with a collapsible stock, a Surefire M500 and an Aimpoint.

anyone else?
Link Posted: 7/25/2005 7:35:51 PM EDT
I am not a cop, but I train with them every chance I get.




Photo courtesy of John Noveske of JNRifleworks.com. Good stuff.
Link Posted: 7/25/2005 7:53:21 PM EDT
Just set mine up with a 16", Surefire M500B, Magpul M93B, Eotech 552, Troy BUIS, PRI Gas buster.

YMMV..



Originally Posted By tried-n-true:
I'm thinking a 14.5" M4 with a collapsible stock, a Surefire M500 and an Aimpoint.

anyone else?

Link Posted: 7/25/2005 10:21:28 PM EDT
Any 16" rifle + light + optic + BUIS.

K.I.S.S.


Sheep
Link Posted: 7/26/2005 4:51:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By tried-n-true:
I'm thinking a 14.5" M4 with a collapsible stock, a Surefire M500 and an Aimpoint.

anyone else?



That is almost what I selected for our agency. We are issuing a 16" BM carbine (no NFA hassles), A SureFire M500, EOTech 552 (1100 hour plus battery life) and a LaRue fixed BUIS. Don't forget a sling.
Link Posted: 7/26/2005 5:29:08 AM EDT
For years I carried a Remington Model 7 .223 with a synthetic stock, a bedded action with an 18" barrel, and a 4x Leupold scope. 100 rounds of ammo.

Didn't feel outgunned at all.

When the dept adopted an "AR only" policy I went with a shorty with a Full A2 stock. No lights, no lasers, no coffee maker, no vertical foregrips. 100 rounds of ammo. (20 rd mags)

I guess you can consider me one of those "Minimalist" types.
Link Posted: 7/26/2005 7:00:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By tried-n-true:
I'm thinking a 14.5" M4 with a collapsible stock, a Surefire M500 and an Aimpoint.

anyone else?



Sounds like a good solid platform........

This was my duty AR until we went to the M14's, that's M-14, NOT the Mini-14 .

Link Posted: 7/26/2005 7:57:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By tried-n-true:
I'm thinking a 14.5" M4 with a collapsible stock, a Surefire M500 X200 and an Aimpoint.

anyone else?



Sounds good to me.
Link Posted: 7/28/2005 4:45:34 PM EDT
Why not a shorter barrel? Cops tend to use carbines at pistol distances, and the shorter length and better handling of a 10.5 or 11.5 would be advantageous.
Link Posted: 7/28/2005 4:52:05 PM EDT
There is no ideal. Tailor your tools to YOUR needs.
Link Posted: 7/28/2005 7:19:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
There is no ideal. Tailor your tools to YOUR needs.



Damn straight, but I think he is wondering what others responses to their needs are. There are many ways to solve the same problem, and they are not mutually exclusive.

The idea of using shorter barrels for LE work isn't mine, it was the reccomendation of Pat Rogers. It makes sense to me, esp. now that I have some trigger time behind the real shorties.
Link Posted: 7/28/2005 7:26:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
There is no ideal. Tailor your tools to YOUR needs.



Damn straight, but I think he is wondering what others responses to their needs are. There are many ways to solve the same problem, and they are not mutually exclusive.

The idea of using shorter barrels for LE work isn't mine, it was the reccomendation of Pat Rogers. It makes sense to me, esp. now that I have some trigger time behind the real shorties.




In most cases, shorter is better. But it comes down to what environment you work in, and what your agency allows or issues.

Link Posted: 7/29/2005 4:05:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/29/2005 4:06:40 AM EDT by npd233]
If I had to pick one generic setup that would suit most shooters and require the least amount of maintenance or upkeep, an A2 style upper, 16" barrel. collapsible stock, and mount an ACOG TA31 on the carry handle. This leaves the standard iron sights available 100% of the time without the need to remove the scope. As for lighting, if you so desire, use a surefire m500 forearm. It will fit into most standard AR style vehicle mounted gunlocks then.
Link Posted: 7/29/2005 8:43:31 PM EDT
16" AR mut I put together myself. I have a rail mounted to the handguards with a verticle grip and my Surefire M3 Combatlight mounted. I recently added an ARMS carry handle goose neck mount with a Trijicon Reflex2, night-sites on an A2 set-up, Basic CAR stock with pad and a Specter HRT single point sling. I mounted a Streamlight M3 adapter installed on the side of my handguards so I can have a back-up light. When I get a G2 Nitrolon I'll put my LED bezel onit and mount it instead of the Streamlight. I used to worry about the added weight until I shot it with the gear mounted. No frickin recoil at all. Smooth.

I prefer the 16" over the shorties, if I need a shorter gun, I collapse the stock instead of the barrel.
Link Posted: 7/29/2005 9:14:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By natez:

Originally Posted By tried-n-true:
I'm thinking a 14.5" M4 with a collapsible stock, a Surefire M500 and an Aimpoint.

anyone else?



That is almost what I selected for our agency. We are issuing a 16" BM carbine (no NFA hassles), A SureFire M500, EOTech 552 (1100 hour plus battery life) and a LaRue fixed BUIS. Don't forget a sling.



Mine is a 16" collasible stock Bushmaster, with SureFire M500, Aimpoint, ARMS 40 buis, and Spectre HST single-point sling. Only the tools I need, accurate enough for 2-300 yds, fast enough for CQB or entry use. No NFA hassle for a SBR which might end up being held as evidence by a shooting team.
YMMV, but it works very well for me....
Link Posted: 7/29/2005 10:59:49 PM EDT
I just married a few things togeather and so far has proven to be a very capable firearm.

I married a New bushy lower w/ 6 pos stock to a post-ban colt 16inch slim barrel upper. its a very very light weapon and i like it mostly for its wieght. i dont care to have all the wiz bang stuff on my gun. although i am considering getting a surefire tactical flashlight attached somewhere on my ar15 since i work night shift. anyone have any ideas on what i should get? *not trying to hijack the thread*
Link Posted: 7/30/2005 12:26:38 AM EDT
Whatever it is, I'd have it sitting next to a plate carrier loaded with extra mags, eyes, and Sordins.
Link Posted: 7/30/2005 5:52:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
I am not a cop, but I train with them every chance I get.



How so ?
Link Posted: 7/30/2005 5:48:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By OneRobertFour:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
I am not a cop, but I train with them every chance I get.



How so ?



There were cops in the class or teaching the class in the three five day classes I have attended this year.
Link Posted: 7/30/2005 10:20:15 PM EDT
I'm just jealous of any of you who get to choose...

I'm not complaining about the AR's we got, mind you. I like them fine. A mix of Colt and Bushy 16" with standard collapsible stocks, tac-tailor slings, and M3 lights.

I'd love to pack my own, with my own light, my own mags, and my own sling choice.

Like a lot of guys, the stuff I buy is always better made than what the dept. buys. Our firearms team is good - really good - but they are limited in what they are allowed to purchase by the City.

I like my own 500A better than the M3 light, and I have bought or assembled high reliability mags for my own system.
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 8:01:01 PM EDT
We are issued Colt M4LE's. Flat top with an Aimpoint CompM2 and a Blackhawk Swift sling. Other then that, we can add what we want (to an extent) but its our dime.

Mine is as above with the exception of an Streamlight mount for my M3 on the underside of my handguard.
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 12:55:45 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 4:00:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Tweak:
Start with a known good platform

16" barrel, no NFA issues, no need for perm attach muzzle device, lower flash/blast.

stock to length that works for you, in regions that have seasons a collapsible stock makes sense as LOP can be adjusted to fit outwear, etc. An adjustable stock makes sense for a rifle seeing round robin use due to varying shooters. A fixed short stock is more goof proof.

white light, firmly mounted, brighter the better, necessity on a duty rifle.

iron sights with low light inserts. nothing to fail, fall off, or fiddle with. had a Dep up here who forgot to turn his dot on for the first few shots of his engagement, training issue true but one that can be avoided. cuts about $500 off the prices of your rifle.

sling, depends on how the rifle is to be used, not a fan of being tied to gun lest I get into a scrap. LE work varies from .mil in that once the battle is done you can set your weapon down and you'll probably be OK. As I've seen only a few LE patrolling with their rifles and most carry the rifle in their vehicle (or god forbid the trunk) carriage of it won't really be an issue.

more importan that the toys is the policy and the training. if either fail it won't matter what you're carrying.



The use of reflexive optics is a hotly debated point. A bare-bones system or one that is VERY simple will often delete this component. In my personal experience, reflexive optics (the EOTech in particular) allow for much more rapid and accurate shooting, and even marginal operators shoot EOTechs much, much better than irons alone. Reflexive optics are also important to eliminate stock-weld issues that tend to surface when shooting from the less-than-optimal positions that come with real-world tactical situations or wearing gas masks, which is still an issue for Patrol officers, too. We compromised by putting fixed back-up irons on our patrol systems, namely LaRue's excellent BUIS. If an agency can afford a quality reflexive sight, they should strongly consider issuing them. If they can't afford them or want to go the "super cheap" route of converting the nearly free DRMO M16A1s to patrol use, then an iron-sighted rifle is still a vastly better choice than an 870 for most LE applications.

I strongly disagree with your feelings on slings, though. A sling is essential on any long gun (or even LL/non-lethal systems like PepperBall) for many, many reasons. A sling is part of your weapons retention procedures, and I have attended rifle training with some pretty good sling-related retention drills. While your long gun operators generally should not be going hands on with suspects, the time will inevitably come when they will have to go hands-on, or climb a fence, open a door, render first aid, answer their cell phone or perform a myriad of functions that require more than one hand. The sling also serves an important function in de-escalation; your car is often parked a block or two away, and you can't (or it isn't wise) for you to disappear from the scene for a couple minutes to lock your long gun up. I have been at more than a few scenes where the mere presence of a long gun held at the low ready riled the suspect(s) up enough that we had a fight on our hands, and is one of the reasons we issue slings for ALL long guns now. Setting your long gun down so that you can assist in the hands-on phase of the incident sounds like an invitation to get one's long gun used against you. Slings are essential.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 12:14:35 PM EDT
I would have agreed with the "superfilous" gear ideology until I actually used this stuff. I won't even consider a weapon night-time useful unless it ahs a wight light on it. Now that I have the Reflex2 mounted, big diference. I wasn't a bad shot with my AR before but now I'm much faster. Plus, I have a wider field of vision since I can target focus and keep the dot as a visual reference instead of something I have to concentrate on. It does add a little weight but not as much as I thought. The biggest weight add on was the ARMS carry handle mount. Once I get a free-float rail set-up that won't be an issue.
Link Posted: 8/7/2005 12:33:49 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/7/2005 6:50:21 PM EDT
I'm with Johninaustin.

A2 standard, iron sights, 30 round mags, etc.

Less stuff to puke on me or fall off, or heaven forbid, someone else has to use it since I'm 10-7 and they can't figure out the thingies I have added to it. Not to mention I am flat broke and would rather have $400.00 more ammo than that money in an optical device with less ammo.


GR
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 1:53:37 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 3:12:21 AM EDT
Hey TriednTrue, here's my setup

Colt LE 6920 16"
ACOG TA11F
Surefire M-500A
Specter Gear CST 3 pt. sling.

If you want to check out the ammo-oracle found elsewhere in this site, he details the superior performance of .223 coming out of a 16" barrel versus a shorter one.

Stay safe brother!
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b42/bobafett126/gunporn1.jpg

Link Posted: 8/19/2005 8:25:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By tried-n-true:
I'm thinking a 14.5" M4 with a collapsible stock, a Surefire M500 and an Aimpoint.

anyone else?


If you’re really looking for a 14.5" M4, you're talking about a restricted weapon that will be purchased/owned by your agency.

Most patrol carbines are semi-autos, 14.5" (with a permanently attached Phantom or Vortex FS, to bring it up just over the 16" min.) or 16" with a standard FS. A good quality light makes sense, as does a quality non-magnified optic like the Aimpoint or EOTech. You will need a sling of some type. If funds are tight, skip the optic.

FWIW…
Colt 6721 16” HBAR. EOTech 512. Troy BUIS. Early SureFire light. Tactical Tailor sling.

Link Posted: 8/20/2005 7:59:15 AM EDT
AN M249 SAW(MINIMI) W/ 250 BELT.

My PD has two. Keep it simple, Bushy, Colt, Etc short barrel. I work in a City, 223 is good enough. For the Lawmen out in GOD's Country, Go 308. FAL or M14.

Personaly, I keep a chinese para SKS in the trunk of my car filled with soft points.

The officers on our ERT Team(SWAT) have colt semi M4 w/ 14.5 in. barrels and EO-Tech sights.
2 officers patrol at all times in a city of 300,000.
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 8:25:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bobafett126:
Hey TriednTrue, here's my setup

Colt LE 6920 16"
ACOG TA11F
Surefire M-500A
Specter Gear CST 3 pt. sling.

If you want to check out the ammo-oracle found elsewhere in this site, he details the superior performance of .223 coming out of a 16" barrel versus a shorter one.

Stay safe brother!
i16.photobucket.com/albums/b42/bobafett126/gunporn1.jpg





Hows that ACOG do at night. Myself and a buddy at work plan on having ACOGs in the future but we work strickly night shift. As soon as I get a flip up BUIS I'm gonna put an ACOG on another Accucam and have it as an alternative sight to my Aimpoint that is always on.
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 8:39:39 AM EDT
Here's what I carry. RRA Elite (middy); Hbar, Samson FF handguard, Surefire M900, Aimpoint M2, GG&G accucam, LMT BUIS, Redi-mag, Magpul MIAD grip, Blackhawk 3 point, Smith Ent. comp., Pelican 1720 case, Wolff magsprings, Magpul ranger plates, all Federa Tactical ammo.




Link Posted: 8/20/2005 8:43:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By greenranger:
I am flat broke and would rather have $400.00 more ammo than that money in an optical device with less ammo.


GR




A lot of agencies; like mine, limit how many magazines/"reloads" that we can carry around with us. I of course am maxed out with each and every weapon that I carry.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 4:33:59 AM EDT
AWACER,
here is a thread where I had an issue with an ACOG at a night match, I think the optional filter would totally solve this problem, newer cars may not have this problem (especially if you have take down lights), but it is something to check.
acog thread

"Hows that ACOG do at night. Myself and a buddy at work plan on having ACOGs in the future but we work strickly night shift. "
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 3:28:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/27/2005 3:30:43 PM EDT by ajp3jeh]
Excellent advice in this thread. A 16" or 14.5" rifle with fixed iron (possibly an no-mag optic), sling, and white light is a great gun. As already mentioned the M500 is a good light because it fits in the mount. I've waffled on sling choices but have gone back to a three point after trying a single point. Another nice "tweak" is the Ashely/XS ghost ring rear aperature - its very quick and great if you can't run an optic.

This is a picture of my current rifle save the sling - I'm using a Wilderness 3-point right now:


LMT BUIS w/Ashely Same Plane rear aperature
Aimpoint Comp M2 on ARMS mounter w/full spacer
Surefire M500AB
Link Posted: 8/28/2005 3:24:08 PM EDT
I'm going to disagree with people who advocate fixed A2 sights. I like simplicity, but a flat top gives you way more options. Almost all come with detachable A2-type carry handles if you want to go with and stay with that route. If you decide you want to mount any type of optic, you have to mount it ridiculously high for most types of shooting with an A2. And those "instantly accessible" irons don't work that well (your rear sight is partially obstructed by whatever mount you choose, especially with the large aperture).

I learned with irons in the Marine Corps, and shot competitivley with them for a years (highpower matches), so I can use them well, and am very familiar with them. Yes, I think they are important.

IMHO, a 16" carbine or mid-length (I like the longer sight radius and longer handguard) A4 (flat top). Free-float tubes with rails to mount coffe makers and TV screens on look cool, but really aren't necessary. A light is hugely important. Get the best you can afford.

I like a non-magnified optic (aimpoint, EOtech). They really do make picking up your sights - especially in the low light that most shootings take place in - much faster. Faster sight alignment is good. Have a BUIS of some sort if Murphy follows you around (he does me). Frankly, I have never had an Aimpoint fail, but I like the insurance. I have shot a bunch at night with both irons and a light and with dot scopes. Dot scopes make life easier. Also, if you are at bad breath distance, you can have the sight off, put the front sight on the bad guy, and YOU WILL HIT HIM. In the Corps we practiced looking over the rear sights on the A2 and just putting the front sight tower on the target. It worked like a charm. I still practice this occasionally. It still works.

With all that said on the optics, you can still get the job done with irons and a light. Practice alot. Practice up close in the dark. I was a sniper on my departments SWAT team for five years, and practiced shooting out to 1000 yards with most of my practicce being at 100-200. My only shooting has been at about 5 feet with an AR (bad guy had a 30-06 - I got lucky and didn't get ventilated). It was at night in a dimly lit house at close range and lasted one second. That's about exactly typical.

As has been said, training really is more imprtant than gadgets, but good equipment can help once you've reached the limits of your present system. If you do get your perfect setup, learn how to use everything until you're sick of it. Then practice some more. I never really thought I'd be in a gunfight, even though I trained for it a lot. I was wrong.

Don't get into the habit of "LAPD is using this, so I need to get it." Get a good solid system (even if it is very basic), and don't screw with it very often. If you're used to it, and it works for you, screw what everyone else is using. But don't think that shooting from a bench or the prone at 50 yards in the daytime is training. Try to simulate the conditions you work in, and make sure what you have works. Also, if something isn't working, be honest enough to tell if it's you, and not your gear.

Good luck.
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