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Posted: 8/15/2004 3:31:49 AM EST
What's up with this.... where'd the prices go?
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 3:52:59 AM EST

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:
What's up with this.... where'd the prices go?



Surefire is after dealers that sell below retail.
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 3:56:35 AM EST
who cares?
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 4:17:15 AM EST

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:
who cares?



I guess that would be the dealers that sell below retail.

If you don't care, then why did you ask the reason?
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 4:23:11 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 4:25:08 AM EST

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:
who cares?


Surefire and the soon-to-be-former Surefire dealers.

CHRIS
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 5:29:59 AM EST
" If you don't care, then why did you ask the reason?"

Ummmmm, Who cares if they sell below retail?
Not, who cares period.



jackass
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 6:02:53 AM EST

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:
" If you don't care, then why did you ask the reason?"

Ummmmm, Who cares if they sell below retail?
Not, who cares period.



jackass



Surefire cares.

Surefire will stop selling dealers the stock and the dealers won't be Surefire dealers anymore.

Get it now?
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 6:03:59 AM EST

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:
surefire has fucked it's dealers and consumers. As good as their stuff is i won't buy any more.

mike



How so, exactly? I just bought my first Surefire the other day, and am perfectly happy with it (G2 Nitrolon in OD green).

Link Posted: 8/15/2004 6:05:26 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 6:06:35 AM EST
"Get it now?"
no - I don't get it.

What does surefire care what dealers sell it for.....................
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 6:10:27 AM EST

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:

jackass




WTF is that about?

Link Posted: 8/15/2004 6:12:27 AM EST
you're busting my balls, don't worry - that's what the smilies are for/
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 6:15:38 AM EST
Surefire doesn't neccessarily care, but they get pressured by big chains who sell things at retail for a big profit, and don't like competition from small on-line businesses that sell for a small margin. Very common practice. I've seen it happen in other product lines.

BTW, I had a Surefire light, and it used 3 bulbs in the course of 6 months of around the car and house use. They were good about replacing them, but I sent it down the road. If I hit moderately hard against anything while it was on it was a guaranteed bulb failure. Maybe I had a bad one (G2 Nitrolon) but apart from the bulb, there isn't much too them.

I have a Pelican M6 now (for about 6 months) and it's still fine after a little bit harder use. Bulbs are way cheaper, too, in the chance that I ever have to buy one myself.
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 6:21:36 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 6:23:37 AM EST
I guess Surefire thinks they are the "Rolex" of flashlights, this price fixing thing is total bullshit.
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 6:26:00 AM EST

Originally Posted By Wave:
LED's are the way to go...




Word!
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 10:03:58 AM EST

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:
"Get it now?"
no - I don't get it.

What does surefire care what dealers sell it for.....................


Didn't school start??????


Thnk about it.
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 10:10:58 AM EST


Dealers pay surefire whatever dealers pay surefire, then dealers sell to us. So what do3es surefire care?

and as regards to:
"Didn't school start??????"

School starts September 9th. It's my second masters degree.
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 10:13:02 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 10:36:32 AM EST
I'm not that good with money I guess.................

What does surefire care what the price is AFTER they've already been paid for merchandise!!!!!!

How come I don't get this?

Surefire sells Lights Inc 100 flashlights for 10 dollars each.
Lights Inc sells them to us for 9 dollars each, cuase he needs cash now,

What the hell does surefire care if they';ve received 1000 dollars from Lights Inc.??????
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 10:47:43 AM EST

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:
I'm not that good with money I guess.................

What does surefire care what the price is AFTER they've already been paid for merchandise!!!!!!

How come I don't get this?

Surefire sells Lights Inc 100 flashlights for 10 dollars each.
Lights Inc sells them to us for 9 dollars each, cuase he needs cash now,

What the hell does surefire care if they';ve received 1000 dollars from Lights Inc.??????



If it is anything like other manufacturers you have an agreement to sell at their MSRP. This keeps the competition healthy.

If a garage/basement guy just orders a case here and there and sells for 2dlrs over cost it'll piss off the big dealers/briack and mortar with lots of overhead that order cases and cases of it but abide by the rules.

I buy certain products to sell and have an agreement to sell at their msrp, which I do.

I'd rather pay a little extra from a reputable dealer.
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 11:20:15 AM EST

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:

Dealers pay surefire whatever dealers pay surefire, then dealers sell to us. So what do3es surefire care?

and as regards to:
"Didn't school start??????"

School starts September 9th. It's my second masters degree.



You should get a refund because none of it seems to have taken hold.

Let me explain it to you this way.

Walmart decides that they are going to sell Surefure so they call up Surefire and put in a 25 Million dollar order, and with such a large order they get a tremendous discount. Using that tremendous discount they launch a nationwide internet ad campaign and are now sell everything they bought retail at a price far below what any other retailer can buy it for wholesale.

I believe that Surefire says you can't ADVERTISE your low prices not that you can't sell it at your price. Thus the ask for pricing.

Surefire is using a form of price control to stop the big vendors from smushing the little vendors.

Yes Surefire really gace their dealers a tremendous shakedown and put some out of the Surefire business when they changed their price control structure.

With that said bring on the U2 Digital Ultra baby!
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 11:20:59 AM EST
I hear ya' all.

Protecting the big retail distributors (that make up the bulk of surefire's customer base) from undercutters. fine....

but what happened to Laissez Faire?????? Market determines price, not maker!
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 11:33:48 AM EST
Alot of manufacturers have what you'd call MAP - Minimum Advertisable Price

MAP is a voluntarily agreement that all legitimate manufacturer authorized retailers enter into with their authorized USA supplier, usually the manufacturer, and in some cases, the official USA distribution arm designated by the manufacturer. According to such agreements, retailers can usually sell MAP restricted items for any price they choose, but may not display in any print or online advertising, a price below the Minimum Advertisable Price.

When we find a retailer that advertises our product for less than MAP it's called a MAP violation. They can potentially lose the line if they do not comply with MAP.
This works well with let's say an ACE hardware that is 3 blocks down from a Home Depot. The product are priced the same. Giving the ACE Hardware a semi-equal footing with the Big Orange Gorilla.

Link Posted: 8/15/2004 11:39:57 AM EST
"."If it is anything like other manufacturers you have an
agreement to sell at their MSRP. This keeps the competition healthy.

----Tactical Jew

That may the most ignorant posting today. How does the competition remain
"healthy' if there IS NO competition.

Chapperjoe..... has it right: "Market (should) determine(s) prices, not maker."

Obviously not the case with Surefire.....but that concept is what keeps
the market healthy; not forcing all dealers to sell at the same price.
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 11:40:13 AM EST

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:
I hear ya' all.

Protecting the big retail distributors (that make up the bulk of surefire's customer base) from undercutters. fine....

but what happened to Laissez Faire?????? Market determines price, not maker!



No you have it wrong, it is under the guise of protecting the smaller retailers. Not the giant ones. Who is more likely to have undercut pricing, the guy running is 500sq ft shop who orders 1 each of 10 different lights and then one or two items every month or Walmart who would order 5,000 each of every item and thousands of more every month?

Link Posted: 8/15/2004 11:45:07 AM EST
interesting.... Wierd market economics.....

I REALLY need to read up on this shit.
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 12:03:02 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 12:06:40 PM EST

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:
interesting.... Wierd market economics.....

I REALLY need to read up on this shit.



You might take a class sometime.





Back in the day there were wholesalers selling Surefires to Brick and Mortar retailers. but not for much if any less than for what these wholesalers were selling them to the consumers for.

These same wholesalers were also selling the Surefires to consumers via the internet but not for much if any more than for what these wholesalers were selling them to the Brick and Mortar stores for.

Too many people were buying from the wholesalers via the internet at prices the Brick and Mortar guys couldn't even come close to matching because of the overhead that's required in a real life shop.

Surefire wants to have a Brick and Mortar retail presence and retailers must be able to mark their goods up.

This is part of why Surefire has created their pricing policies.
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 12:10:06 PM EST

Originally Posted By MickeyMouse:
I try to avoid buying "price fixed" items. SUrefire will be added to that list of "avoids".



I'm not sure how much price fixing Surefire engages in and how much is just controlling the minimum advertised price, you'd have to try to get a Surefire dealer to speak on that.

Pelican and Stream light make some really nice stuff too.
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 12:25:00 PM EST
phil,

"You might take a class sometime."

seriously, I should,
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 12:41:52 PM EST
Surefire is not the only company that does this... the firearms industry is filled with it.

That is why you see P.O.R. even in the Wholesale flyers. It is sometimes irritating because I can't advertise an item for the price I have it tagged on the shelf. Yet I understand the concept...

MT
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 5:57:01 PM EST

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:

Dealers pay surefire whatever dealers pay surefire, then dealers sell to us. So what do3es surefire care?

and as regards to:
"Didn't school start??????"

School starts September 9th. It's my second masters degree.
www.smiliegenerator.de/s25/smilies-41220.png



Joseph, that just makes you more informed, not more intelligent.
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 12:50:13 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/16/2004 12:53:10 AM EST by chapperjoe]
vinnie:

Joseph, that just makes you more informed, not more intelligent.



The name's not Joe, but you're 100% correct on the rest of that. I see many people (maybe even me) who cover up their stupidity with capital letters after their names. I hope to be Chapperjoe MD DDS PHD ARMS PRI USMC NYPD FACS one day

Link Posted: 8/16/2004 12:55:11 AM EST
I have one word for these fuckers.......BOYCOTT
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 1:04:31 AM EST
I bought a Surefire last year. Paid mucho dinero for it. Not really all that impressed. Better than the Mini-Maglights I was going through at a rate of 2 per year, but not really worth what I paid for it.
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 2:40:51 AM EST

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:
What's up with this.... where'd the prices go?



Surefire is apparently in the middle of an effort to make everyone sell at their MSRP. Anyone who avertises lower than MSRP gets their dealership yanked.

Why they are doing this, I do not know. I guess they want to ensure "dealer profitability" meaning that they want to make sure that every dealer has a healthy profit margin on their stuff. I don't know what wholesale SF prices are. Some folks do know, but they aint going to tell because SF would yank their dealership.

I am SERIOUSLY disappointed with this move. Leo\Mil discounts are nice, but non LEO and non Mil people actually have to use weapons and need lights too. Why punish dealers that sell below MSRP? We all know that MSRP on every product out there is insanely high. Surefire's products are no different. And it wasn't all that bad out there. Try and find a decent Surefire combat light for under 70 dollars. I dare you.

I just bought one from CopQuest 2 weeks ago. It was under MSRP, but only by a fraction. That's when I found out that CQ was having their dealership revoked and they were closing out all their surefire stuff.

I guess the people at SF think they have the best lights out there. (And they do) And I guess that this realization has gone to their heads, so they think that people will just pay whatever they ask for them. (This is true. People will pay for the best.) And I guess they think that people always will.

Wrong. If SF shows no loyalty to its customers, then they will abandon them as soon as they get a chance. LEO\Mil discounts are nice. But the rest of us have a need for a good light that is every bit as critical as the soldier in the field and the cop on the beat. I don't mind funding LEO/Mil discounts, but don't screw me out of any chance of paying less than MSRP.

I don't particularly care if the light I use is the same one as the DEA or the FBI or some Special Forces unit. It makes not a whit of difference to me. I use SF products because of how they have performed for me and met my needs.

But Streamlight is improving their stuff every day. Sooner or later they will build a better mousetrap, or it will get to the point where you can afford to buy 2 Streamlight products for every one Surefire product. People will do this. It makes SENSE to do this. One can NEVER have too many flashlights around. They have a bad habit of breaking when you need them.

Surefire does offer some low cost nitrolon lights that are still as bright as most of the combat lights, and I laud them for making them available. I will be buying a couple of them and keeping them as backups to my two combat lights.

But this move does not make me happy. It does not seem to have the customer's best interest at heart. Customers aren't stupid, and they realize this. It annoys me when someone won't tell me what the price of something is up front. You don't have to approach a clerk at Wal-Mart to discover what the price of anything on the shelf is.

You don't have to find some sales guy to figure out what the price of a car is. They all have prices advertised clearly. This is in the consumer's best interest, and those who do this well are rewarded with lots of profitable buisness.

If SF reads this board, I appeal to them to fix this problem and explain themselves. They owe it to their longtime customers to do so.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 4:32:56 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 6:24:38 PM EST
It is a good thing that SureFire is doing this. Why you say... In order for a business to get set up as a dealer for most manufactures they must buy into the company, what I mean is they must buy a certain amount of product and depending on how much product the business buys on that first order sets what price they pay for the manufactures products in the future. If the manufacture does not set limits for the dealers you end up with the big time dealers (which buy in with huge $ and get bigger cuts off dealer cost) under cutting the smaller business basically running them out of the market.

It happened in the performance auto parts industry back in the 70's and 80's when places like Summit Racing and Jegs came about. Those places ran alot of small business owners out of business.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 7:03:03 PM EST
All this said, who has the best prices now?

BoB
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 7:19:08 PM EST

Originally Posted By BoB-O:
All this said, who has the best prices now?

BoB



I found the G2 for $29.85 Here, but they have the Pelican M6 for $40.60, and it comes with a case. As for their service, I have an order on the way, so if its good, I might have to order a new flashlight.

Brian
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 8:38:44 PM EST
Surefire is protecting their smaller dealers but at an expense that will cost them some market share because their competitors will continue to develop better products at better prices. The Streamlight Strion is looking very promising so far. Right now they don't notice because companies like them and Trijicon can't keep up with the demand that the worldwide security increase is creating. When the demand slows down they will have to make some marketing decisions, looks like they are already pushing their direct buy website as an alternative to brick and mortar shops. But for now, their quality is still tops, and nobody sells batteries cheaper thean them.
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