I have done a lot of looking around and am honestly interested in your interpretation of the commandment.  Specifically the definition of “graven image”.  As I understand it we are dealing with images hewn from wood or carved from stone or any form of sculpture.  I found some vs.    


Exodus 20:4 - Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

Leviticus 26:1 - Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.

Deuteronomy 27:15 - Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten image, an abomination unto the LORD, the work of the hands of the craftsman, and putteth it in a secret place. And all the people shall answer and say, Amen.


Thanks 308.

I'll agree with your definition.

But the larger issue is ANYTHING you revere above God.

Doesn't have to be "graven."

I concur with the G-man.

If God is truly who the Bible says He is, then He deserves the #1 position.  Idolatry isn't limited to statues.  Anything you value more than Him is an idol.

To me a graven image is something that is used to represent a false god, and is usually used for purposes of worshiping, sacrifice, or prayer.
I consider shrines like they have in Asian restaurants to be graven images.

I believe that the Commandment deals with creating idols for the intention of worshiping them or THROUGH them.

For example, I highly doubt that a sculpture of, say, Saint Jude is sinful in itself. However, since it is normally kept as a sign of devotion, then it would be.

In short, sculpture made as a representation of a Biblical story or concept is fine, so long as it is not used as a medium in any kind of worship.

It is where, IMHO, the Catholic Church MAY stumble. I know that the prayers are not to the image, but rather what (who) the image represents. That is a hazy area that I prefer to avoid altogether, and as such I no longer have any such images in my house.

Any idol made by man to be the object of worship. And it doesn't have to be just wood, stone, metal, or other natural materials. It could be plastic, styrofoam, etc.

thanks, that's exactly where i am coming from.

It's not to what the image represents, although this whole area is where a lot of people get confused by the whole patron saint thing.

You're not praying too, or through a saint. You're asking the Saint to pray [i]for[/i] you, much like you'd ask a relative to pray for you. The idea is that since the Saint is a person who god worked through here on earth, that the same can be true after their dead and up with The Man. (Special note: Don't ask St. Jude to pray for you unless things are really really bad) Hence why it's "Hail Mary full of grace....yadda yadda..pray [i]for[/i] us sinners".

The whole patron saint thing was really originally a grass roots thing. Carpenter sticks a statue of St. Joseph up on a shelf since Joseph was a carpenter (I think St. Joseph is the patron of carpenters), because he has a connection to the Saint, and figures maybe St. Joseph will pray for him since they're like *that*. This then got expanded over time by various people in various occupations, until it became officialized. There's current work on a Patron Saint of Handgunners. It's largely a symbolic thing. Basically, if you call to a Saint, you're basically asking for backup to your and your friends prayers for whatever the issue is.

If you are actually worshiping a saint, rather than just asking for a saint's help, then you've crossed the line.

Just to go against the grain, and since this was covered in another recent 10 page thread, SO would a monument to the ten commandments count? A cross on a steeple? A painting of Jesus Christ? A fish bumper sticker on a car? Cross shaped necklace or earrings?

It can get ridiculous.

From the Catechism (Zaphod)

IV. "YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FOR YOURSELF A GRAVEN IMAGE . . ."

2129 The divine injunction included the prohibition of every representation of God by the hand of man. Deuteronomy explains: "Since you saw no form on the day that the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, beware lest you act corruptly by making a graven image for yourselves, in the form of any figure. . . . "66 It is the absolutely transcendent God who revealed himself to Israel. "He is the all," but at the same time "he is greater than all his works."67 He is "the author of beauty."68

2130 Nevertheless, already in the Old Testament, God ordained or permitted the making of images that pointed symbolically toward salvation by the incarnate Word: so it was with the bronze serpent, the ark of the covenant, and the cherubim.69

2131 Basing itself on the mystery of the incarnate Word, the seventh ecumenical council at Nicaea (787) justified against the iconoclasts the veneration of icons - of Christ, but also of the Mother of God, the angels, and all the saints. By becoming incarnate, the Son of God introduced a new "economy" of images.

2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, "the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype," and "whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it."70 The honor paid to sacred images is a "respectful veneration," not the adoration due to God alone:

From the Westminster Larger Catechism (please pardon the length)

Question 107: Which is the second commandment?
Answer: The second commandment is, Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; and showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Question 108: What are the duties required in the second commandment?
Answer: The duties required in the second commandment are, the receiving, observing, and keeping pure and entire, all such religious worship and ordinances as God has instituted in his Word; particularly prayer and thanksgiving in the name of Christ; the reading, preaching, and hearing of the Word; the administration and receiving of the sacraments; church government and discipline; the ministry and maintenance thereof; religious fasting; swearing by the name of God, and vowing unto him: as also the disapproving, detesting, opposing, all false worship; and, according to each one's place and calling, removing it, and all monuments of idolatry.

Question 109: What are the sins forbidden in the second commandment?
Answer: The sins forbidden in the second commandment are, all devising, counseling, commanding, using, and anywise approving, any religious worship not instituted by God himself; tolerating a false religion; the making any representation of God, of all or of any of the three persons, either inwardly in our mind, or outwardly in any kind of image or likeness of any creature: Whatsoever; all worshiping of it, or God in it or by it; the making of any representation of feigned deities, and all worship of them, or service belonging to them; all superstitious devices, corrupting the worship of God, adding to it, or taking from it, whether invented and taken up of ourselves, or received by tradition from others, though under the title of antiquity, custom, devotion, good intent, or any other pretense: Whatsoever; simony; sacrilege; all neglect, contempt, hindering, and opposing the worship and ordinances which God has appointed.

I think with some people I've met, their ARs may count.[rolleyes]

 Strangest thing I have ever seen anyone "worship" was the band Dream Theater.  At a show a number of years back there was this kid in the audience who literally looked like he was worshipping them....REALLLLLLLYYYY strange.  I mean, Mike Portnoy's a great drummer and all....but sheesh.

You're going to hell because you had some rocks in your yard?? Or he was pissed about your silly bumper sticker??? You have some fucked up rules.

Here are some bad, bad rocks.


Stonehenge, stone circles, dolmens, ancient standing stones, cairns, barrows, hillforts and archaeology of megalithic Europe

[url]http://www.stonepages.com/home.html[/url]

"Over the last 14 years we have personally visited and photographed all 529 archæological sites you will find in these pages (117 in the six national sections and 412 in our Tours section), creating the first Web guide to European megaliths and other prehistoric sites, online since February 1996"






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Heathen Monuments -StoneMonument and theirLegends

An extensive listing. There are pictures in links on some of the individual entries.

[url]http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/monuments.html[/url]



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Anonther extensive listing, but with many more pictures.



[url]http://home.enter.vg/arildhaugesruner/monuments.htm[/url]



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Funny name- long list of sites.

Presents a comprehensive guide to Europe's stone circles, dolmens, standing stones, cairns, barrows and hill forts.

[url]http://www.world-mysteries.com/lnx_3.htm[/url]


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And one more

[url]http://www.uidaho.edu/student_orgs/arthurian_legend/england/stones/links.html[/url]

and which is the 'correct' version of the cross?? with or without christ?? but jews don't believe in christ?? how does that work exactly??

Trying for the longest post by distance there Only?[:D]

what do you expect form a guy that worships rocks?

Dude -

The Bible also says "Thou shalt not covet."

[}:D]

Very well said.  I don't pray to any image.  An image isn't needed for having a conversation (prayer) with Heavenly Father.

The plain fact is what the Catholics practice is Idol worship!  plain and simple ! do the Jews have statues of moses where they ask him to pray for them? no! do Muslims have statues of Mohammed so he can intersede? NO! do protestants? no! do orthodox? no! well sort of no!? Does God need helpers? why does a person need to ask a saint for gods help? does'nt God already know what you need and made up his mind? it specifically states- "DO not consult mediums or the dead or the sprits of the afterlife" do not consult the dead! they can't help you, only God can. Heres the plain fact- When the Roman christians were trying to get the "conservative" rural peasant population to convert it was easier for them to allow them to follow certain "traditions". You like bowing down to a statue of Venus and asking for her help in getting a husband or pregnant? OK here, let me scrape off the name Venus, put Mary instead and "ask" not pray for her to help you with your problems. the Monothestic religions of abrahamhave been struggling with this problem for 2 millenia and excpt for the Roman church have forbid that "tradition"  Just read my sig [;)]

I REALLY don't want to get this started again, but I can't let you get away with these lies. Did you even read the post I made earlier? I doubt it. The last thread that you tossed your anti-Catholic tripe into covered all this anyway.

Try these on

[b]Exodus 20:16[/b] You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

[b]Romans 12:4-5[/b] For as in one body we have many parts, and all the parts do not have the same function, 5 so we, though many, are one body in Christ and individually parts of one another.

T-stox makes a good point.  When was it taught that we should use saints or even Mary as mediators between us and God?  The only Mediator I'm aware of is Jesus.  So I pray to the Father in the name of His Son.  That doesn't take a graven image to do, though.

There is quite a difference between having a crucifix or an icon, and worshipping/praying to that crucifix/icon/whatever as if the thing itself were God.  

Scott

What about praying towards the image of Mary or one of the saints?  Even if the prayers aren't directed at the image itself, why pray to Mary or one of the Apostles when we have God the Father to pray to?

[img]http://www.wareaglemill.com/images/breakfast.jpg[/img]

Oops. Sorry. I thought you said [b]gravy[/b] image. We now return you to ARFCOM Theology Theater.

My attempt to explain.

The overall Catholic thinking concerning the issue of intercessory prayers is that we are commanded in scripture to pray for one another (James 5:14-16 Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the presbyters of the church, and they should pray over him and anoint (him) with oil in the name of the Lord, and the prayer of faith will save the sick person, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed any sins, he will be forgiven. therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful).

Those saints are presumed to be in God's presence(1 Peter 3:12 For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous and his ears turned to their prayer).

Since we are all destined to share in that glory (Phillipians 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven), we ask those who have gone before to intercede on our behalf.

Would a saint in heaven pray? I would think so. Would the prayer of a saint be righteous enough  for the Almighty to hear? Scripture would say yes. If we ask those in our earthly community to pray for us, why shouldn't we ask those in our heavenly community?

Wow!  Thank you for your answer.  It is very informative and I feel I understand your faith a little better.  I certainly won't argue with such a sincere explanation.  I may disagree on some doctrines, but I'm not going to attack you for your beliefs.

nope- wrong again. I don't know of anyone that worships rocks. Where did you get [b]that[/b]?? Look before you speak.
I fixed the links for ya though.
These are your european ancestors too....

- please fix that grammatical abortion in your sig line.
“I have seen a tame things sorry for themselves.”....

Moi?

Finally an issue Mohammed and Protestants can agree on.

Groooaaaaannnnn...... [banghead]

IMO Searcher's got it nailed, but I'd go even further.  For example, money is held in higher esteem, by some folks, than their relationship with God.  Because of that, money itself becomes a graven image.  In short, anything material that you "worship," or covet, violates the 2d Commandment, because the OBJECT eventually becomes the focus of your worship, not what t represents.  Besides, how can you represent an all-knowing, all-powerful, all-seeing, omniscient, ever-present God?  He is too overwhelmingly awesome to boil down to some shape here on earth.

Amen. Accusations of Catholics being idol worshippers are just plain stupid.

Now, Twire, I notice that you quoted the Catechism directly to me. I feel compelled to clarify something.

I never, EVER, have believed the Catholics are idol worshippers (see above). I merely raise the question of whether having statues of saints, Mary, etc., is in contradiction to the Second Commandment. I know what the Catechism says, but please remember that it is written by men, while Scripture comes much more directly from THE guy we need to follow.

I choose to follow Scripture literally at least until I understand it better to be able to accept the Catechism.

That said, I understand the concept of intersession, and must concede that I do it still (mostly to my mother). I'm not certain it's right, but I can't find it in me to declare it WRONG. I know that nowhere was I ever taught that praying to, say, Saint Jude (my family's patron saint) in any way put him equal to or above the Lord Himself.

So, your post concerning the nature of intercession makes perfect sense, and additionally makes no claim to NEEDING intersession which, of course, would not be accurate.

My issue is the images used to represent the saint/person being prayed to. It is sufficiently vague that I have chosen to err on the side of caution and not have any in my home. I refrain from passing any judgement on those who use images "properly" because I'm not the authority nor will I be the Judge.

Excellent post...

are you saying that if a person pays more attention to things like their job, their income, car, and television schedules then they do to religious matters, that hey are worshipping idols???

So I spend 10 hours a week reviewing the tv listings, watching and recording tv shows and discussing tv shows, but I only spend 1 hour a week in chucrh- do I have my priorities straight??

I think you are mistaken, but only on semantics.

I believe the Second Commandment deals specifically with images and idols. What you describe (money, etc.) are not graven images, but since you CAN worship them (i.e. - value them above all else) they fall under the FIRST Commandment (false/other gods).

Like I said.....semantics only.

No, you are worshipping false gods.



Dedication is not necessarily measured by time. I spend more time dealing with the issues of the world (work, finances, etc.) than I do directly speaking with or worshipping God. However, if you live your life with the purpose of making it pleasing to God, then even the situation you describe is not worshipping a false god.

If, however, ALL you think about is money, or sex, or guns, or power, especially to the exclussion of the Will of God, THEN you are worshipping false gods, and are in BIG TROUBLE.

Remember, it's not MONEY that is the root of all evil, it is the LOVE OF money!

I was going to disgree with your last post, then saw this one and REALLY understood what you were saying.  You're right, it's semantics only; I was thinking of those types of people who loved to have money, and carry large amounts not because they need it but because they want to impress people with it.  

But, I didn't take it the next step, which is as you say, they are really worshiping the CONCEPT of money, not the money itself, over God, and that is a 1st Commandment problem.

I stand (gently) chastised.  Thanks!

Nah. They're just being assholes. They'll get theirs...  



You're quite welcome. Glad I was able to help. Normally in these threads I'm just a student.

I guess OP and ETH are teaching me well after all! [:o]