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Posted: 8/4/2005 7:38:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/4/2005 7:39:18 PM EDT by JBravo223]
So what is a better rifle? accuracy? shtf? quality?

of course .308

if you had to choose, which would it be?
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 7:39:35 PM EDT
Savage. M1A isn't inherently accurate.
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 7:40:43 PM EDT
110. By far a more reliable, accurate rifle. Yes, RELIABLE. Yes, ACCURATE.
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 7:40:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By geish:
Savage. M1A isn't inherently accurate.




Get the M1A


Sgatr15
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 7:42:24 PM EDT
What's the purpose of the rifle?
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 7:46:48 PM EDT
M1A

Reliable, plenty accurate. And just an all around damn good gun.

Me? Just can't get into bolt actions for some reason........
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 7:47:43 PM EDT
Savage.
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 7:48:48 PM EDT
M1A.
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 7:59:07 PM EDT
People that claim an M1A is reliable don't own one. And those that think they are more accurate than the Savage have never fired either.

The range queen M1A that used to rule DCM matches required careful handling, lest the bedding be ruined by an inadverdant grip on the forestock. And that takes the accuracy from 1.5 MOA to 4 MOA or worse.

Link Posted: 8/4/2005 8:20:07 PM EDT
Both are exellent, I own both.

My M1a is the national match model. I love it. Very accurate, very reliable.

My savage bolt action rifles are a 110 in .300 win mag, and a 112 in 25-06, but 110 is a standard barrel, and the 112 is a heavy fluted barrel. Both are exellent bolt action rifles.


I would say get both, but if that wasnt an option, you should ask yourself what it would most likely be used for.

If I had to choose though, I think I would stick with my M1a national match.
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 8:33:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/4/2005 8:39:20 PM EDT by MonkTx]

Originally Posted By Keith_J:
People that claim an M1A is reliable don't own one. And those that think they are more accurate than the Savage have never fired either.

The range queen M1A that used to rule DCM matches required careful handling, lest the bedding be ruined by an inadverdant grip on the forestock. And that takes the accuracy from 1.5 MOA to 4 MOA or worse.



I need somebody to go with me to the range and tell me which of my M1A's are unreliable. You got me on the match gun though, it gets handled like a Faberge egg. And yes, Savages' are probably the most accurate out of the box factory rifle made.( They're just so damn ugly!)
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 8:38:39 PM EDT
I have an M1A loaded standard. It's awfully fun, and seems pretty reliable, but I'm reluctant to scope it for a couple reasons.

1. The Gen III scope mount is universally reviled as not good at holding a repeat zero over time.
2. Then I'd know how accurate it is or is not. 1.5 MOA? That doesn't sound too good. My Ruger M77 in .223 is about 1.5 MOA.
3. A good scope mount is 170 to 200 dollars easy.

I don't regret buying it, because it's a beautiful piece, and fun.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 7:24:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/5/2005 7:30:47 AM EDT by wolfman97]
Reliable? A gun magazine did a torture test on an M1A just before the AWB went into effect. They put 10,000 rounds through the thing as fast as a team of guys could pull the trigger. Several times the barrel got so hot that it set the stock on fire. To fix that problem, they just dunked the whole thing in a bucket of water, shook off the excess and kept firing.

The M1A made it through all 10,000 rounds without a significant failure. They did report a couple of minor incidents but they figured out that the incidents were the problem of the people running the test, not the rifle. It seems they oiled it when they shouldn't have.

At the end of the test, they fired a five shot group (with a hot barrel) that was tighter than the group they fired when they started the test.

If anyone tells you there is any rifle more reliable than the Garand design, hang on to your wallet and run.

Now, you could always run the same kind of test with a bolt-action rifle, but I think your arm will get pretty tired before you get into the thousands of rounds.

As for accurate, bolt action rifles are generally more accurate than semi-autos but the M1A is accurate enough to hit most anything you are shooting at (especially if you get a match model). I recall lots of them being used in big bore rifle matches where (presumably) the participants know enough about accuracy to pick an appropriate weapon.

If it is going to be used as a hunting rifle the 110 will probably be the better bet just because it is lighter. If you need a weapon for both hunting and holding off the local Al Qaeda cell, then the M1A is the only choice.

I will say that, of the people I know who have shot both, most of them develop a real fondness for the M1A. Of those who own M1As, most regard it as the last gun they will keep if they ever get to the point where they are so broke they have to sell their collection to live. Versatility, reliability, and firepower seem to be their primary deciding points. Bolt action rifles are a bit boring by comparison.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 7:27:57 AM EDT
and yet people buy theirs for an exorbent fee and have problems with their M1a right off the bat...just take a look at the armory forums...take all those torture tests with a grain of salt. Just about every gun out there has had one done.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 7:31:41 AM EDT
M1a

Or both. Everyone could use a bolt action deer gun.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 7:32:16 AM EDT
go with the Savage, really accurate bolt guns are just fun.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 7:33:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By VTwin60:
and yet people buy theirs for an exorbent fee and have problems with their M1a right off the bat...just take a look at the armory forums...take all those torture tests with a grain of salt. Just about every gun out there has had one done.



Just remember bad news travels fast... There are lots of people with no problems whatsoever that just don't post. This goes for anything, not just M1as.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 7:37:07 AM EDT
M1A
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 7:38:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By macman37:

Originally Posted By VTwin60:
and yet people buy theirs for an exorbent fee and have problems with their M1a right off the bat...just take a look at the armory forums...take all those torture tests with a grain of salt. Just about every gun out there has had one done.



Just remember bad news travels fast... There are lots of people with no problems whatsoever that just don't post. This goes for anything, not just M1as.



Yes that is true and most realise it, however Springfield's quality has taken a nose dive in the last three years. More and more problems are being reported.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 7:40:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By VTwin60:
and yet people buy theirs for an exorbent fee and have problems with their M1a right off the bat...just take a look at the armory forums...take all those torture tests with a grain of salt. Just about every gun out there has had one done.



Well, they did it side by side with a Norinco model and the Norinco crapped out at about 1,000 rounds. I don't recall ever seeing such a test on a 110, probably because it would take you far too long to put 10,000 rounds through the thing -- assuming your arm could handle all the work.

Is there any product made that doesn't have some issues? I see notes from people having trouble with their Glocks, too. Does that mean that Glocks are unreliable?

From what I have seen, if you took a poll of M1A owners and asked them to name the best rifle in their collection -- that is the last one they would sell in an emergency -- I think the M1A would wind hands down over any bolt action rifle. Just my observation. Run your own poll if you wish.

If the question is which one is best for shtf then the answer is obvious. The guy with the M1A will get off five rounds while the bolt action guy is still working the handle. The History Channel has a show on the Garand that they show occasionally. One of the clips is a Garand side-by-side with an 03 Springfield. Watch it for even a few seconds and you can see why the Garand design replaced the bolt action.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 7:43:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By VTwin60:

Yes that is true and most realise it, however Springfield's quality has taken a nose dive in the last three years. More and more problems are being reported.



Just curious, but how would you really know? Is it because quality has really dipped that much? Or is it because they are just selling more of them? Or is it because someone is maybe more likely to report problems if they paid more for the thing? Or is it because a fair number of people just bought the cheaper bolt gun and then never really used it? (reasoning that if you pay more for a weapon you are probably more likely to use it)

Unless you have the company records of complaints, I would think that using internet forums to judge would be unreliable, at best.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 7:44:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By VTwin60:
Yes that is true and most realise it, however Springfield's quality has taken a nose dive in the last three years. More and more problems are being reported.



I've got a little bit of experience here. I bougth an M1A like a year ago and it fed like crap, I contacted the people at Springfield and they said that if I were to use genuine GI mags it should feed fine, but if not they'd be more than happy to fix it up. I got a couple GI mags instead of the $15 ones I was using, and now it runs like a champ. In fact... I don't know if it's even had one failure in over 1,000 rounds.
Get the M1A, tons of fun.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 7:46:23 AM EDT
Get the M1A!

If you really want a bolt action, why settle for Savage. Get a Remington 700 LTR.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 7:48:12 AM EDT
only problem with my M1a was I cleaned the gas system and tightened it to "tight"
I had failure to cycle.
After Tightining it to omg tight it has ZERO problems

mags can also be a problem,cheap mags are BAD and will cause failure
as far as 4moa? maybe if your affraid of a .308 and you flinch
but the recoil isn't bad,I've let my 11 y/o son who's skinny as hell run a couple mags down range
{he also loves the .45}

I have a Friend who did two tours in VietNam, He was trained on the M14 but used the m16 in country, He liked the m16 due to weight and follow up shots
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 7:50:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By tctlrld:
Get the M1A!

If you really want a bolt action, why settle for Savage. Get a Remington 700 LTR.



probably because the Savage is just as good of a rifle for less money. you can also change barrels out on a savage in your garage with about the same ease as swapping an AR barrel.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 7:51:54 AM EDT
I own 3 M1As, I've put 5K rounds thru one, only 5 jams I remember: 2 within 8 rounds of installing a recoil buffer as the buffer got seated, 3 were from an aftermarket magazine.

I doubt you will ever find a more reliable rifle than the M1/M14 (assuming it has been assembled correctly, which goes for all firearms).

Has SA had some quality issues? Sure, there've been some complaints, but they are related to SAI's assembly or cast parts, not the inherent design of the rifle.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 7:54:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Keith_J:
People that claim an M1A is reliable don't own one. And those that think they are more accurate than the Savage have never fired either.

The range queen M1A that used to rule DCM matches required careful handling, lest the bedding be ruined by an inadverdant grip on the forestock. And that takes the accuracy from 1.5 MOA to 4 MOA or worse.




M1a, and don't butcher it. Put it in a nice wood stock, put a FS on it, and LEAVE IT ALONE! M14s worked fine for a while without all those fancy-doodads.

Ben
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 7:54:58 AM EDT
Well if you are like me, i got a boltgun, now i STILL want a M1A ! Bolt gun is for sale.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 7:55:42 AM EDT
This is easy; You want a bolt, get the Savage. You want a semi, get the M1A.

Cripes, its apples and/or oranges.

Mike
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 8:32:09 AM EDT
what brand M1A is good since SA seems to be having problems?
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 8:35:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JBravo223:
what brand M1A is good since SA seems to be having problems?



The only other brand is the Norinco and that one crapped out in the torture test at less than 1,000 rounds. If you happen to get a bad SA (more unlikely than likely, I would say) then tell them to fix it. They will.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 8:48:50 AM EDT
This rifle is $750:


An SWFA Super Sniper 10X42 scope is $300.

You've just equaled the cost of a basic Springfield M1A and exceeded the accuracy of a Springfield Super Match M1A.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 8:52:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By wolfman97:

Originally Posted By JBravo223:
what brand M1A is good since SA seems to be having problems?



The only other brand is the Norinco and that one crapped out in the torture test at less than 1,000 rounds. If you happen to get a bad SA (more unlikely than likely, I would say) then tell them to fix it. They will.



put down the crack pipe.
Fulton Armory
makes a great M14 semi rifle, it is very expensive, but it is also a great rifle. and the Norinco rifles are just fine when compared to a SAI. there are some bad apples, but they can be fixed.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 9:09:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By wolfman97:

Just curious, but how would you really know? Is it because quality has really dipped that much? Or is it because they are just selling more of them? Or is it because someone is maybe more likely to report problems if they paid more for the thing? Or is it because a fair number of people just bought the cheaper bolt gun and then never really used it? (reasoning that if you pay more for a weapon you are probably more likely to use it)

Unless you have the company records of complaints, I would think that using internet forums to judge would be unreliable, at best.



You know what you're absolutely right! Why take the word of people on the internet that have had problems with their guns? I mean that doesn't mean anything does it? Look I'm real tired of the pissing match, you nut all over yourself on an over priced MIM filled gun; fine by me. You think everyone who has paid $1200 is expecting too much out of it and their complaints are suspect, fine by me. The design is as good as they come, but it was the USGI parts that made the M1A great. You want a similarly priced rifle with accuracy and reliability? PTR-91, HK G-3, FN FAL, STG-58.

Link Posted: 8/5/2005 9:12:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:

Originally Posted By wolfman97:

Originally Posted By JBravo223:
what brand M1A is good since SA seems to be having problems?



The only other brand is the Norinco and that one crapped out in the torture test at less than 1,000 rounds. If you happen to get a bad SA (more unlikely than likely, I would say) then tell them to fix it. They will.



put down the crack pipe.
Fulton Armory
makes a great M14 semi rifle, it is very expensive, but it is also a great rifle. and the Norinco rifles are just fine when compared to a SAI. there are some bad apples, but they can be fixed.



I stand corrected. It is worth mentioning that old M-1 Garands are excellent, too, the only drawback being the 8-round mag. Although I have seen some companies that converted old Garands to detachable mags. IIRC, they wound up being about half the price of a SA M1A.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 9:13:41 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 9:13:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sgtar15:

Originally Posted By geish:
Savage. M1A isn't inherently accurate.




Get the M1A


Sgatr15



+1 for getting the M1a and the smack on the head.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 9:20:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By VTwin60:
You know what you're absolutely right! Why take the word of people on the internet that have had problems with their guns? I mean that doesn't mean anything does it?



Means the same thing as any other casual observation of a relatively few people. In other words, interesting but not entirely reliable.


You want a similarly priced rifle with accuracy and reliability? PTR-91, HK G-3, FN FAL, STG-58.




Well, I see complaints about those, too. But, of course, probably not as many simply because I never ran across as many people who owned them. Come to think of it, if we go on personal surveys, I have found tons of people who rave about their M1A, fewer who rave about their FAL, and I have never heard anyone but you rave about their personal experience with the others.

So what are we supposed to conclude from that?

But I have seen a lot of people with complaints about unreliable Glocks. I guess they are something to be avoided, too.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 9:29:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Keith_J:
People that claim an M1A is reliable don't own one.



Like the US Military, I suppose. Let's just say you stand corrected.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 9:31:25 AM EDT
there have been countless polls here in the general discussion forum over and over and over and over again between the FAL and M1a, you must either be sleeping or have a selective memory. BTW the reverse could be said of your opinion on the M1A as well....just trying to point out the obvious, when the obvious isn't always that.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 9:32:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/5/2005 9:34:44 AM EDT by VTwin60]

Originally Posted By wolfman97:

Originally Posted By Keith_J:
People that claim an M1A is reliable don't own one.



Like the US Military, I suppose. Let's just say you stand corrected.



and it was frontline main battle rifle for how long? Lets not talk about special designated units, lets talk main battle rifle. Lets just say you stand a little presumptuous. Say, you didn't go to James Carville school of thought by any chance did you?
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 9:42:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/5/2005 9:54:58 AM EDT by SPTiger]

Originally Posted By AZ_newguy:
This is easy; You want a bolt, get the Savage. You want a semi, get the M1A.

Cripes, its apples and/or oranges.

Mike



Exactly. I bought a Rem. M700VS in 1999. I bought a SA M1A in 2003. My M1A is a great rifle and I've had no problems with it. Below are a couple of crappy pics of my two .308s. I bought a surplus fiberglass stock for my M1A and painted it camo.







Link Posted: 8/5/2005 9:45:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By VTwin60:

Originally Posted By wolfman97:

Originally Posted By Keith_J:
People that claim an M1A is reliable don't own one.



Like the US Military, I suppose. Let's just say you stand corrected.



and it was frontline main battle rifle for how long? Lets not talk about special designated units, lets talk main battle rifle. Lets just say you stand a little presumptuous. Say, you didn't go to James Carville school of thought by any chance did you?



Isn't it the same design as the Garand, only with a magazine attached? As I recall, the design proved its reliability in battle. Now, if you want something with a long life as a battle rifle that award would probably go to something like the flintlock -- noted for their firepower and reliability under all conditions, of course.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 9:46:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SPTiger:

Originally Posted By AZ_newguy:
This is easy; You want a bolt, get the Savage. You want a semi, get the M1A.

Cripes, its apples and/or oranges.

Mike



Exactly. I bought a Rem. M700VS in 1999. I bought a SA M1A in 2003. My M1A is a great rifle and I've had no problems with it.



Just curious, if you had some real emergency where you had to sell all but one to raise cash, which would be the last one you would keep?
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 9:49:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By VTwin60:
there have been countless polls here in the general discussion forum over and over and over and over again between the FAL and M1a, you must either be sleeping or have a selective memory. BTW the reverse could be said of your opinion on the M1A as well....just trying to point out the obvious, when the obvious isn't always that.



Yeah, the obvious seems to be that opinions vary and neither one of has any actual statistics that could prove the case definitively either way.

But I see far more complaints about Glocks than M1As. What does that tell us about Glocks?
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 9:53:30 AM EDT
Hard to go wrong with a quality M1A.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 9:54:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By wolfman97:
sn't it the same design as the Garand, only with a magazine attached? As I recall, the design proved its reliability in battle. Now, if you want something with a long life as a battle rifle that award would probably go to something like the flintlock -- noted for their firepower and reliability under all conditions, of course.



1.) Its a butchered modified M1 Garand which is one of the greatest rifles ever devised by man.

2.) So is a Ruger Mini 14, whats your point?

3.) Flintlocks? Smooth bore muzzle loaders? Come on get real. How about the right arm of the free world? You know the other 96 non communist nations that chose the FAL? How about Taiwan and US only using the M14, which incidentally is NOT an M1A.

4.) Piss poor scope mounting abilities

5.) No pistol grip

6.) Over priced MIM parts where USGI parts should be

You're right, I don't like the current SA M1A. Thats my opinion and now if you'll excuse me I have better things to do than play keyboard commando with Mr Internet thought police.

Link Posted: 8/5/2005 9:56:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By wolfman97:

Originally Posted By VTwin60:
there have been countless polls here in the general discussion forum over and over and over and over again between the FAL and M1a, you must either be sleeping or have a selective memory. BTW the reverse could be said of your opinion on the M1A as well....just trying to point out the obvious, when the obvious isn't always that.



Yeah, the obvious seems to be that opinions vary and neither one of has any actual statistics that could prove the case definitively either way.

But I see far more complaints about Glocks than M1As. What does that tell us about Glocks?



what complaints about Glocks? have you seen BIGBORE's thread in the handgun forum showing how incredibly reliable those things are?
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 9:57:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By wolfman97:

Originally Posted By SPTiger:

Originally Posted By AZ_newguy:
This is easy; You want a bolt, get the Savage. You want a semi, get the M1A.

Cripes, its apples and/or oranges.

Mike



Exactly. I bought a Rem. M700VS in 1999. I bought a SA M1A in 2003. My M1A is a great rifle and I've had no problems with it.



Just curious, if you had some real emergency where you had to sell all but one to raise cash, which would be the last one you would keep?



If I had to get rid of one of them it would be the Remington. However since it is a lefty rifle I may have trouble selling it, not that I want to.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 10:06:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:

what complaints about Glocks? have you seen BIGBORE's thread in the handgun forum showing how incredibly reliable those things are?



Yeah, and I have seen similar tests on the M1 series rifles, and I have seen people complain about their Glocks not functioning properly. See Glocktalk for some.

I think that's why they say "YMMV".
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 10:12:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By VTwin60:

1.) Its a butchered modified M1 Garand which is one of the greatest rifles ever devised by man.



Uuuuh yeah. Instantly went from "one of the greatest ever" to POS.


2.) So is a Ruger Mini 14, whats your point?


See your own comments about the design.


3.) Flintlocks? Smooth bore muzzle loaders? Come on get real. How about the right arm of the free world? You know the other 96 non communist nations that chose the FAL? How about Taiwan and US only using the M14, which incidentally is NOT an M1A.


As I recall, FAL wasn't on his list of original options, for whatever reason. And most of the ones I have seen are made from who-knows-what parts so reliability of what most people bought would be a guessing game, anyway.


4.) Piss poor scope mounting abilities


I will give you that one. It is hard to find a good scope mount that will hold a reliable zero under heavy use.


5.) No pistol grip


Let's just say you stand corrected there. Look it up. They are available for a modest cost.


6.) Over priced MIM parts where USGI parts should be


As opposed to "whatever came in the basket" for a lot of FALs.


You're right, I don't like the current SA M1A. Thats my opinion and now if you'll excuse me I have better things to do than play keyboard commando with Mr Internet thought police.


We will be busting down the door in any minute. You still have time to unbunch your panties before the flash-bang grenades go off.

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