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10/20/2017 1:01:18 AM
9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 9/12/2005 5:41:23 AM EDT

Definitions of suicide
a person who kills himself intentionally, Suicide (from Latin sui caedere, to kill oneself) is the act of intentionally ending one's own life.



then wouldnt doing anything that you know you will or can die be the same thing?

Link Posted: 9/12/2005 5:44:18 AM EDT
I've known a couple people who have ended their own lives.

Only God can judge these things.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 5:46:30 AM EDT
I doubt God would look unkindly on a man who jumped in front of a bus to push a little girl out of the way, but wasn't fast enough to get out of the way himself.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 5:47:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Brohawk:

Only God can judge these things.




Amen.

<---- Someone who has stared down the barrel of his own gun...
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 5:48:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mattja:
I doubt God would look unkindly on a man who jumped in front of a bus to push a little girl out of the way, but wasn't fast enough to get out of the way himself.



That's not suicide. That's sacrifice. Count on God looking upon it kindly.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 5:50:35 AM EDT
No.

Anything could potentially kill you, even eating dinner.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 5:53:10 AM EDT
ok, but if to give your life for another is sacrifice, would that not be the same as killing your self to spare your family long term pain and burdon of your problems?
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 5:56:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2005 5:59:02 AM EDT by AntiochusIV]
If you seriously require an intellectual explanation delineating the concept of 'sacrifice' as it stands independantly from the perceptual 'wrong' of suicide, that means you are unable to figure out the prevailing logic for yourself.

Anyone who is so lacking in cerebral acuity that they're unable to decipher said logic on their own using the tools that god gave them (or in your case, apparently didn't give you) wouldn't understand any summary explanation anyway, thus, this entire discussion will devolve into people in opposing philosophical camps and their stupid nitpicking.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 6:04:50 AM EDT
No entry found for independantly.
Did you mean independently?

www.dictonary.com
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 6:13:38 AM EDT
IBTL.

Wrong fourm bud.

This is the religion forum
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 6:14:49 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 6:18:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2005 6:18:27 AM EDT by The_Beer_Slayer]
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 9:33:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mattja:
I doubt God would look unkindly on a man who jumped in front of a bus to push a little girl out of the way, but wasn't fast enough to get out of the way himself.



That would depend entirely on had the rescuer accepted Jesus Christ as his savior. If he has not, no earthly act can save him from Hell.

In contrast if he had accepted Jesus he could push the little girl in front of the bus and still go to heaven.
(All sins are equal in Gods eyes)
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 9:46:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2005 9:47:49 AM EDT by EricTheHun]
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 9:52:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Zaphod:

Originally Posted By Brohawk:

Only God can judge these things.




Amen.

<---- Someone who has stared down the barrel of his own gun...



Shit, I do that every time I clean a gun. Always make sure it is unloaded first!
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 10:08:51 AM EDT
my mom killed herself, so I hope not

but something tells me that God wants us to trust him enough to follow through with his plan for us, even if we think it sucks
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 10:12:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Ring:
question, if the religous types say suicide is bad and you will go to hell, but...



Be careful painting with such a broad brush, especially in your initial question/title.

The "religious types" are not in one accord on many issues and certainly not on the more complex ones.

Most (but maybe not all?) doctrines say most suicides are "bad," but doctrines vary greatly on whether/in what way your eternal destination is affected by such.

Link Posted: 9/12/2005 10:16:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By HardShell:

Be careful painting with such a broad brush



+1.

Link Posted: 9/12/2005 10:20:51 AM EDT
So the devil is in the details?
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 10:26:37 AM EDT
Jumping on a hand granade to save the lives of your friends is not a suicide
but a self-less act of giving & thats how God see's it!
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 10:36:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AntiochusIV:
If you seriously require an intellectual explanation delineating the concept of 'sacrifice' as it stands independantly from the perceptual 'wrong' of suicide, that means you are unable to figure out the prevailing logic for yourself.

Anyone who is so lacking in cerebral acuity that they're unable to decipher said logic on their own using the tools that god gave them (or in your case, apparently didn't give you) wouldn't understand any summary explanation anyway, thus, this entire discussion will devolve into people in opposing philosophical camps and their stupid nitpicking.



Can I save your post and quote it in the future?

What you said applies to about 95% of the discussions that take place on the internet.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 10:49:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Ring:
then wouldnt doing anything that you know you will or can die be the same thing?

Just because you can die from something doesn't mean it's suicide. I could die from skin cancer, but going to the beach isn't suicide.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 11:03:20 AM EDT
Life itself is terminal, you can live it afraid, or actually live it.


That all said, if I die having fun (riding Bull, hunting, or saving someone from a burning house) I hope heavenly father will understand that I was living the life he gifted me to experience things as a mortal being.


If I were to kill myself intentionally (unable to handle difficulties like a Libtard, or catch soem mental disease, possibly liberalism or depression or both) I would expect HIM to be much much less happy with me and cosmically smack me down for awhile, centuries, millennia, longer...
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 11:09:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2005 11:10:18 AM EDT by Old_Painless]

Question, if the religous types say suicide is bad and you will go to hell....


Always dangerous to lump "the religious types" into a big bunch.

This particular "religious type" believes that your entry into Heaven or Hell is determined by your relationship to Jesus Christ. Nothing else.

Just so we clear that up.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 11:22:07 AM EDT
The question you have to ask yourself is this, What the hell did you expect religious institutions to say?? Killing yourself is good? no way! But ultimately it's not up to those jerk offs anyway now is it. They say what they have to say for the good of society but each persons life is his own and it's up to God. I think in some cases suiscide is preferable to some fates you could have on earth. For example the Jews of Massada. The choice was rape, pillage then slavery at the hands of Romans or killing themselves. They chose to end it quick. Or in the case of a painful terminal illness, or being crippled from the neck down or some other really bad thing, ending your life might be preferable.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 11:24:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AR15fan:

In contrast if he had accepted Jesus he could push the little girl in front of the bus and still go to heaven.
(All sins are equal in Gods eyes)



...

WTF

guys like you give Christians a bad name :(

Link Posted: 9/12/2005 11:26:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dino:

Originally Posted By AR15fan:

In contrast if he had accepted Jesus he could push the little girl in front of the bus and still go to heaven.
(All sins are equal in Gods eyes)



...

WTF

guys like you give Christians a bad name :(




loophole in the system?
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 11:26:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dino:

Originally Posted By AR15fan:

In contrast if he had accepted Jesus he could push the little girl in front of the bus and still go to heaven.
(All sins are equal in Gods eyes)



...

WTF

guys like you give Christians a bad name :(




Hey man, it's Gods policy not mine. Ever look at a woman with lust in your heart? Your no better than a murderer or rapist in his eyes.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 11:34:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
<snip>

In contrast if he had accepted Jesus he could push the little girl in front of the bus and still go to heaven.
(All sins are equal in Gods eyes)



Well, if that's how it works then I guess this Christian is gonna stop and whack a few Arabs on the way home. I might even tell my wife a lie and pork my neighbors daughter while I'm at it.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 11:51:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Gunner1X:

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
<snip>

In contrast if he had accepted Jesus he could push the little girl in front of the bus and still go to heaven.
(All sins are equal in Gods eyes)



Well, if that's how it works then I guess this Christian is gonna stop and whack a few Arabs on the way home. I might even tell my wife a lie and pork my neighbors daughter while I'm at it.



provided you repent, and mean it....
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 11:54:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Hokie:

Originally Posted By Gunner1X:

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
<snip>

In contrast if he had accepted Jesus he could push the little girl in front of the bus and still go to heaven.
(All sins are equal in Gods eyes)



Well, if that's how it works then I guess this Christian is gonna stop and whack a few Arabs on the way home. I might even tell my wife a lie and pork my neighbors daughter while I'm at it.



provided you repent, and mean it....



The general population's absolute misunderstanding of the Christian religion never ceases to amaze me.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 11:57:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:

i can think of a few folks i'd like to "sacrifice" but i don't think it would be the same






Ditto, brother! My list is actually pretty long!
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 11:58:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

Originally Posted By Hokie:

Originally Posted By Gunner1X:

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
<snip>

In contrast if he had accepted Jesus he could push the little girl in front of the bus and still go to heaven.
(All sins are equal in Gods eyes)



Well, if that's how it works then I guess this Christian is gonna stop and whack a few Arabs on the way home. I might even tell my wife a lie and pork my neighbors daughter while I'm at it.



provided you repent, and mean it....



The general population's absolute misunderstanding of the Christian religion never ceases to amaze me.




so does it's sarcasm, apparantly!
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 12:00:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NimmerMehr:

Shit, I do that every time I clean a gun. Always make sure it is unloaded first!



Mine wasn't unloaded, and my trigger discipline was nil. It wasn't unintentional.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 12:01:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hokie:

so does it's sarcasm, apparantly!



Sorry, Hokie.

Your indicated "thinking", not sarcasm.

I missed your point.

Other than that, how's your day?
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 12:02:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

Originally Posted By Hokie:

so does it's sarcasm, apparantly!



Sorry, Hokie.

Your indicated "thinking", not sarcasm.

I missed your point.

Other than that, how's your day?



Quite well sir, quite well. And yours?
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 12:04:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hokie:

Quite well sir, quite well. And yours?



I think I need one of them there brewskies you have.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 12:05:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

Originally Posted By Hokie:

Quite well sir, quite well. And yours?



I think I need one of them there brewskies you have.



Mine's a double whisky on ice, but you're of course welcome to join me!
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 1:51:34 PM EDT
When making any ethical judgment you must take into consideration 3 factors: the act, the intent of the actor and the circumstances involved.

So for example, unintentional homicide is NOT a sin, even though someone dies. The intent and circumstance of the actor mitigates moral responsibility for the act of killing another human being (such as a bus driver inadvertantly running over a little girl who walks behind a bus backing up).

So the driver is NOT guilty of murder, even though a human being was killed.

With respect to suicide, there are two things to consider: a) the mental state of the suicide (did he/she know what they were doing was wrong and b) the moral state; was he/she free (not drugged, drunk, etc to the point of not being in control of their actions).

A good number of suicides exhibit seriously psychological problems prior to killing themselves to the point of really not being "in their right minds" at the time.

Jesus, in his parable of the servants who didn't know their Master's will but did something wrong as opposed to the ones who DID know their Master's will and still did something wrong is THE verse you want to use, NOT some silly arm-chair, out-of-context, stretch about adultery and lust being somehow on par.

Someone who is lucid, calm, and in full use of reason and will who picks up a pistol, bites it and kills themself is going to hell. Because they chose death for it's own sake. They chose, as their last conscious desire, something that is NOT good.

Someone who is mentally ill, schitzophrenic, divided personality, one side condemning as judge and executioner and the other pitifully asking for mercy, isn't choosing FREELY and thus isn't making a human act worthy of condemnation.

As for those who claim to be "bible believing Christians" yet somehow believe all sins are equal in God's eyes... they don't read their own bible.

NO WHERE is it written "All sins are equal in Gods eyes". Go ahead and check it. You won't find that exact phrase ANYWHERE.

What we get are arm-chair theologians trying to para-phrase something and come to hasty conclusions. So lusting for a woman is "committing adultery in the heart". Yes.... but "in the heart" is STILL different than "committing adultery".

After all, IF YOU COMMIT ADULTERY PHYSICALLY, SHE IS GUILTY TOO, NOT JUST YOU.

Hating someone is wrong - but hating someone is a private sin. Not the same thing as murdering someone. The one hated is still alive, and can forgive you. Both might lead to damnation, the latter always starting with the former. That was Jesus' point: don't just refrain from the outward manifestation of sin, but keep yourself from even desiring it.

Big, big diff.

Also we have Our Lord's words about scandal - that he who scandalizes one of the little ones...it would have been better had he never been born! Ouch! Or when he talks about the sin against the Holy Spirit that can not be forgiven. Surely then from Our Lord's own words we have two occasions when HE distinguished between different types of sin.

St John, in one of his epistles DOES distinguish between sins that are deadly (mortal) and sins that aren't deadly to the soul. Check it out. All y'all protestants have got to know the epistle in question.

If you can pray for some sins but not for others, duh, it means there is a categorical difference between some thoughts, acts, or omissions and others.

Back to suicide: As long as you are not willing your death - as a means to some end, you aren't killing yourself when you jump on a hand grenade, dive in front of a speeding vehicle, or swim out to save a drowning man... your intent is NOT death, but to save someone else. You wish to live, but accept risk of injury for the good of saving an innocent.

Jesus didn't seek death - but he knew the consequences of actions - like jumping on the grenade. They killed him, when they were free to spare him. So it's not like he goaded them to do it.

So his act, the intent and the circumstances were totally different than a lucid suicide who desires death out of pride or lack of faith or simply lack of hope of a better tomorrow.

To accept death when it comes from illness isn't suicide. To take poison is with the intent of hastening death (rather than merely alleviate pain) is.

That's a far cry from the psychologically ill suicidal people who convince themselves that 2+2=2345 or that black is white, up is down, saddness is joy, etc. and that killing themselves is NECESSARY to somehow reestablish harmony in the universe or make others' happy. Many times they're weeping as they go - their mind cracks - divides and one part of them becomes judge and executioner while the other, pitifully is the convict begging for mercy. That's why they leave notes bareing their souls and asking forgiveness.... they don't seek death lucidly, freely, but co-opted by illness and bad habits.

Link Posted: 9/12/2005 2:20:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hokie:

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

Originally Posted By Hokie:

Quite well sir, quite well. And yours?



I think I need one of them there brewskies you have.



Mine's a double whisky on ice, but you're of course welcome to join me!




Geez, guys! Get a room!
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