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Posted: 7/1/2015 11:03:21 AM EDT
[#1]
Quoted: I had a AR15 dropped off at the shop last night while I was out, where its brainiac owner. In his all powerful reloading wisdom. Thought it a good way to stretch power in his reloading. By going UNDER the min recommended charge. Can you see where this is going? Any time you reduce the middle of the road charge weight by 25% you run the risk of a SEE.. And kabooming your weapon. With no powder covering the flash hole, the primer has enough pressure to get the bullet moving a small amount stopping it in the rifling. and a split second later all the powder from base to neck fires all at once. no controlled burn just a big old BOOM. Pressure levels will spike, guns will be destroyed. IF you are wanting to play in this reduced load area, you can use a filler material. Like pillow stuffing or cream of wheat to take up the airspace. Or go the safe route and use a bulkier powder to give you a 70% or better fill. Ill get Pics tonight and post it up here.. I also have a few of the guys loads so I will be dissembling them to see how bad he messed up. |
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Posted: 7/1/2015 11:04:45 AM EDT
[#2]
I use grits. This is the south after all. I'd be interested in knowing what brand of powder.
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Posted: 7/1/2015 11:04:55 AM EDT
[#3]
Yep... also prevents a double charge, as 2 charges won't fit in the case.
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Posted: 7/1/2015 11:07:05 AM EDT
[#4]
guys that reload 300BO need to be aware of this when making subs. or any one making subs for anything..
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Posted: 7/1/2015 11:08:24 AM EDT
[#5]
Damn... I've heard of people doing this when trying to make subsonic rifle rounds, but never somebody just trying to be cheap.
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Posted: 7/1/2015 11:09:02 AM EDT
[#6]
Interesting, thanks
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Posted: 7/1/2015 11:09:23 AM EDT
[#7]
That is why I keep coming back here. Never would have guessed that a weak charge would KB a gun. Thanks OP.
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Posted: 7/1/2015 11:09:56 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Damn... I've heard of people doing this when trying to make subsonic rifle rounds, but never somebody just trying to be cheap. I have a few real winners that come in all the time.. and I'm waiting for Darwin to take them soon.. |
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Posted: 7/1/2015 11:11:54 AM EDT
[#9]
I knew about this but it just occurred to me, wouldn't it be awful easy to undercharge .45 Colt?
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Posted: 7/1/2015 11:13:12 AM EDT
[#10]
Quoted:
I had a AR15 dropped off at the shop last night while I was out, where its brainiac owner. In his all powerful reloading wisdom. Thought it a good way to stretch power in his reloading. By going UNDER the min recommended charge. Can you see where this is going? Any time you reduce the middle of the road charge weight by 25% you run the risk of a SEE.. And kabooming your weapon. With no powder covering the flash hole, the primer has enough pressure to get the bullet moving a small amount stopping it in the rifling. and a split second later all the powder from base to neck fires all at once. no controlled burn just a big old BOOM. Pressure levels will spike, guns will be destroyed. IF you are wanting to play in this reduced load area, you can use a filler material. Like pillow stuffing or cream of wheat to take up the airspace. Or go the safe route and use a bulkier powder to give you a 70% or better fill. Ill get Pics tonight and post it up here.. I also have a few of the guys loads so I will be dissembling them to see how bad he messed up. don't know if i understand what you are saying, what about when we shoot straight down aiming at the ground, there won't be any "powder covering the flash hole" of any ammo |
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Posted: 7/1/2015 11:14:19 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I knew about this but it just occurred to me, wouldn't it be awful easy to undercharge .45 Colt? Yup cowboy shooters see this a lot.. Use bulkier powders to keep safe.. Trail boss for one.. |
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Posted: 7/1/2015 11:14:19 AM EDT
[#12]
Didnt know that
thanks for sharing |
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Posted: 7/1/2015 11:14:26 AM EDT
[#13]
Not trying to disparage anyone but Lee covers this in the first part of the Lee Reloading Manual.
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Posted: 7/1/2015 11:15:00 AM EDT
[#14]
If this this were any less interesting I'd be all over the grammar in your first couple sentences.
 Do you have some pics of the damage? |
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Posted: 7/1/2015 11:16:06 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not trying to disparage anyone but Lee covers this in the first part of the Lee Reloading Manual. yup and has a GREAT picture as well. But with the internet, most reloaders don't pick up a manual any more. they just get a kit look up some shit and go go go.. 
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Posted: 7/1/2015 11:17:29 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If this this were any less interesting I'd be all over the grammar in your first couple sentences.
Do you have some pics of the damage? I will tonight.. Remember I'm a gunsmith not a english major..  Most of the time we talk in low grunts, with an occasional yelp.
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Posted: 7/1/2015 11:17:47 AM EDT
[#17]
Learn something new every day.
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Posted: 7/1/2015 11:18:08 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
guys that reload 300BO need to be aware of this when making subs. or any one making subs for anything.. Fad caliber...no one cares. 
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Posted: 7/1/2015 11:20:41 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Fad caliber...no one cares. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
guys that reload 300BO need to be aware of this when making subs. or any one making subs for anything.. Fad caliber...no one cares. yup thats why I'm not making bullets for it any more.. Im glad to see it gone.. |
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Posted: 7/1/2015 11:22:37 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
don't know if i understand what you are saying, what about when we shoot straight down aiming at the ground, there won't be any "powder covering the flash hole" of any ammo Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I had a AR15 dropped off at the shop last night while I was out, where its brainiac owner. In his all powerful reloading wisdom. Thought it a good way to stretch power in his reloading. By going UNDER the min recommended charge. Can you see where this is going? Any time you reduce the middle of the road charge weight by 25% you run the risk of a SEE.. And kabooming your weapon. With no powder covering the flash hole, the primer has enough pressure to get the bullet moving a small amount stopping it in the rifling. and a split second later all the powder from base to neck fires all at once. no controlled burn just a big old BOOM. Pressure levels will spike, guns will be destroyed. IF you are wanting to play in this reduced load area, you can use a filler material. Like pillow stuffing or cream of wheat to take up the airspace. Or go the safe route and use a bulkier powder to give you a 70% or better fill. Ill get Pics tonight and post it up here.. I also have a few of the guys loads so I will be dissembling them to see how bad he messed up. don't know if i understand what you are saying, what about when we shoot straight down aiming at the ground, there won't be any "powder covering the flash hole" of any ammo answer my own question: "no one really knows why S.E.E. happens, and it cannot recreated upon demand." http://africanxmag.com/secondary_explosion_effect.htm |
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Posted: 7/1/2015 11:24:47 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
guys that reload 300BO need to be aware of this when making subs. or any one making subs for anything.. That's why I love TrailBoss. |
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Posted: 7/1/2015 11:43:48 AM EDT
[#22]
My first thought without reading well was 308 subs. 300BLK subs sound about right.
Just dial it down till it slows down. |
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Posted: 7/1/2015 11:44:39 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My first thought without reading well was 308 subs. 300BLK subs sound about right. Just dial it down till it slows down.
actually it was a 223..
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Posted: 7/1/2015 11:48:03 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I use grits. This is the south after all. I'd be interested in knowing what brand of powder. instant or regular? |
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Posted: 7/1/2015 11:51:38 AM EDT
[#25]
Tag.
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Posted: 7/1/2015 11:55:45 AM EDT
[#26]
reloading manuals are for sissies with no sense of adventure.
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Posted: 7/1/2015 1:37:54 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: guys that reload 300BO need to be aware of this when making subs. or any one making subs for anything.. |
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Posted: 7/1/2015 1:48:31 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
instant or regular? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I use grits. This is the south after all. I'd be interested in knowing what brand of powder. instant or regular? You put the grits in first, then the powder. Right?  
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Posted: 7/1/2015 1:50:53 PM EDT
[#29]
I guess this isn't an issue for competition shooter reloaders who game their ammo to JUST ENOUGH to cycle the gun?
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Posted: 7/1/2015 1:51:40 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I did not know this. Thanks. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I had a AR15 dropped off at the shop last night while I was out, where its brainiac owner. In his all powerful reloading wisdom. Thought it a good way to stretch power in his reloading. By going UNDER the min recommended charge. Can you see where this is going? Any time you reduce the middle of the road charge weight by 25% you run the risk of a SEE.. And kabooming your weapon. With no powder covering the flash hole, the primer has enough pressure to get the bullet moving a small amount stopping it in the rifling. and a split second later all the powder from base to neck fires all at once. no controlled burn just a big old BOOM. Pressure levels will spike, guns will be destroyed. IF you are wanting to play in this reduced load area, you can use a filler material. Like pillow stuffing or cream of wheat to take up the airspace. Or go the safe route and use a bulkier powder to give you a 70% or better fill. Ill get Pics tonight and post it up here.. I also have a few of the guys loads so I will be dissembling them to see how bad he messed up. It's a very real problem for those of us who load smokeless powder into large shells designed for black powder..such as .45 Colt. |
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Posted: 7/1/2015 1:57:14 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I guess this isn't an issue for competition shooter reloaders who game their ammo to JUST ENOUGH to cycle the gun? Not generally... most pistol cases don't have the capacity to get a reloader into too much trouble. Even powder puff loads use enough powder to cover the flash hole. Big old school rounds like .45 Colt might pose a problem, but that's what Trail Boss is for. |
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Posted: 7/1/2015 2:10:03 PM EDT
[#32]
Thread should betacked, somewhere, for an undisclosed amount of time. |
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Posted: 7/1/2015 2:11:45 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not trying to disparage anyone but Lee covers this in the first part of the Lee Reloading Manual. It never hurts to repeat potentially life-saving advice. Public Service 101 |
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Posted: 7/1/2015 2:15:25 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
instant or regular? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I use grits. This is the south after all. I'd be interested in knowing what brand of powder. instant or regular? No self-respecting southerner uses instant grits. |
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Posted: 7/1/2015 2:22:15 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No self-respecting southerner uses instant grits. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I use grits. This is the south after all. I'd be interested in knowing what brand of powder. instant or regular? No self-respecting southerner uses instant grits. Are these magic grits? Did you get them from the same guy who sold Jack his beanstalk beans? |
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Posted: 7/1/2015 2:27:13 PM EDT
[#36]
Had a guy come in with a Savage with the bolt jammed shut and a chunk missing from the receiver. He said it was his second shot after reloading up some rounds with an "IMR" powder he got secondhand. Said the recoil was pretty severe...so he figured to shoot another round. The powder was not in the original packaging either. He then went on to describe the powder as round flakes.
I sold him a bullet puller so he could unload the rest.
That savage was a heavy barreled target gun, which is probably why he still had his face intact. |
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Posted: 7/1/2015 2:32:45 PM EDT
[#37]
I know nothing about reloading, and would have thought something like this would be impossible. Very interesting. |
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Posted: 7/1/2015 2:58:38 PM EDT
[#38]
lurn somethin ever day
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Posted: 7/1/2015 3:03:49 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I guess this isn't an issue for competition shooter reloaders who game their ammo to JUST ENOUGH to cycle the gun? Not usually, because most competitions require the power factor to meet a minimum floor. Something like CAS? Sure, but those guns are hand cycled anyway. |
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Posted: 7/1/2015 3:09:47 PM EDT
[#40]
I thought "s.e.e." was a scapegoat/ boogyman for bad reloading practices like double charges?
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Posted: 7/1/2015 3:28:19 PM EDT
[#41]
They quit recommending fillers 20-30 years ago, they found some of the fillers could actually do damage to the barrel. Hodgdon has a standard recommendation for reduced loads but all their reduced loads use only Hodgdon H4895 powder, I've found this makes an excellent reduced load in 30-06, 8 mm Mauser and 7.62x54R. I can shoot all of those with very little recoil, really makes it pleasant to shoot them, I know I found full power 8mm Mauser loads had pretty heavy and uncomfortable recoil, but using Hodgdon's reduced power loads it was very enjoyable to shoot.
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Posted: 7/1/2015 3:37:49 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They quit recommending fillers 20-30 years ago, they found some of the fillers could actually do damage to the barrel. Hodgdon has a standard recommendation for reduced loads but all their reduced loads use only Hodgdon H4895 powder, I've found this makes an excellent reduced load in 30-06, 8 mm Mauser and 7.62x54R. I can shoot all of those with very little recoil, really makes it pleasant to shoot them, I know I found full power 8mm Mauser loads had pretty heavy and uncomfortable recoil, but using Hodgdon's reduced power loads it was very enjoyable to shoot. H4895 is really bulky stick powder. And my go to for 308 loads. 42.5 over a 168r SMK. |
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Posted: 7/1/2015 3:39:09 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I thought "s.e.e." was a scapegoat/ boogyman for bad reloading practices like double charges? We will find out tonight when i pull the guys rounds and measure.
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Posted: 7/1/2015 3:46:22 PM EDT
[#44]
I heard of this but never thought it was proven fact.
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Posted: 7/1/2015 3:46:34 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not usually, because most competitions require the power factor to meet a minimum floor. Something like CAS? Sure, but those guns are hand cycled anyway. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I guess this isn't an issue for competition shooter reloaders who game their ammo to JUST ENOUGH to cycle the gun? Not usually, because most competitions require the power factor to meet a minimum floor. Something like CAS? Sure, but those guns are hand cycled anyway. I shot some "cowboy loads" out of a die hard SASS guy's wheelgun way back before Trail Boss. If you held the gun pointed downward more than about 10 degrees, ignition more than likely wouldn't happen. The bullets are usually literally barely clearing the muzzle in those guns... no power floor at all. |
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Posted: 7/1/2015 3:47:39 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We will find out tonight when i pull the guys rounds and measure. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I thought "s.e.e." was a scapegoat/ boogyman for bad reloading practices like double charges? We will find out tonight when i pull the guys rounds and measure. I've seen this phenomenon argued back and forth and for everyone who's tested it I've never heard of it being replicated under test conditions. So while I don't DISBELIEVE it's possible, I personally believe that it's probably the last possibility to explain things, if other more likely and common observed reasons are ruled out. |
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Posted: 7/1/2015 3:58:28 PM EDT
[#47]
I think the secondary effect has more to do with a modified/unstable pressure profile than whether or not the flash hole is covered. 2.7 grains of Bullseye in a .38 special come nowhere near covering the flash hole.
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Posted: 7/1/2015 4:01:39 PM EDT
[#48]
Can cotton balls be used as wadding/filler in sub loads?
Best, JBR |
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Posted: 7/1/2015 4:12:36 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Can cotton balls be used as wadding/filler in sub loads? Best, JBR that will work.. I stole this from the archive.. TY AJ_Dual 
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Posted: 7/1/2015 4:30:02 PM EDT
[#50]
Very interesting. I knew it was a problem in large capacity revolver cases, but never heard of it happening in smaller diameter rifle cases.
In for the pulldown results. |
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