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Posted: 9/14/2009 5:37:31 PM EST




http://www.keepandbeararms.com/newsarchives/XcNewsPlus.asp?cmd=view&articleid=327by John A. Sutter
in California

For decades I have heard gun owners claim that the government would never be able to confiscate our firearms because the government would lose too many men. The implication being, of course, that gun owners would actively resist confiscation, even to the point of shooting back. But I believe this thinking is outdated and doesn’t align very well with reality. But before you tell me how big your honor guard in Hell will be when that day comes, let’s think about how the government could really do it.

Suppose, for the sake of argument, the government bans all civilian possession of firearms at the end of this month. Congress passes a total ban and the President cuts his own re-election throat by signing it. Gun owners get some grace period to turn them in, even beyond the deadline, without being charged with a crime. If we use Australia and Britain as examples there will still be a significant number of firearms that are not turned in. Some estimates put the Australian turn-in at less than 25% and the British faired only about 28%. But Australians and the British have long been used to obeying almost every gun control law. Not so the Americans. When laws are passed that we don’t like, we bite. We scratch. We vote. So here we sit after the guns have been collected and the amnesties have run out. Now what? Send out the personnel carriers, swat and shock troops to seize the guns from those militia “terrorists” who refused to turn them in? Don’t be silly.

The government has lots of records about you. If you purchased a firearm since 1968, chances are that they have some record of it somewhere. Most likely, it will take quite some time for them to compile all the serial numbers of “surrendered” guns (surrendered essentially at gunpoint) and cross off the ones you turned in. It’ll take more time for them to attempt to “clean up” their data. Say, about two years, maybe three. Add to that the hordes of people keypunching in hundreds of thousands of sales and registration records from hundreds of gun stores forced out of business. At some point the government decides they have something approaching a “good” database of unaccounted-for guns.

The next thing you’ll get from the government is an official looking notice that they think you still have a firearm. Their information will probably include all the information from registration forms, right down to the serial number. That notice will tell you that you’re in violation of the law, subject to prosecution and imprisonment. It will give you some period of time to surrender the gun. It will also give you a very limited number of days to return the form with an explanation of why you don’t have the gun, any proof you have, and your signature that the gun was lawfully disposed of. For many people the idea that the government “knows” they didn’t turn in that pistol or rifle and they have the detailed information about it will be enough to get them to surrender the gun. Some people will ignore the letter, others will scrawl a note that “I sold this in 1982 in a private sale”. After some time, the government will figure out how many guns are still out there and what the “compliance rate” is with the gun ban. More importantly, they’ll start sorting their database by the number of guns someone supposedly has “unaccounted”.

If you think they’ll come at these multiple-gun owners with a swat team, guess again. Their most likely tactic will be yet another letter (maybe two more) that generate what they’ll call “insufficient responses”. That means they can’t track a gun after you owned it. This they’ll use as fodder for a search warrant and/or perjury charges at a later date if they can. My guess is that the time between April and August will be a bad time for a lot of “former” gun owners. Remember that the BATF is an arm of the Treasury department and they control the IRS. You’ll probably get a notice in the mail that the IRS has some questions about your taxes or wants to audit you. When you make the appointment to visit the IRS they will pass that information to the BATF. While you are sweating over your deductions, the BATF and local police will execute a search warrant and search your home looking for guns. With you safely off site and distracted, essentially forced into “the royal presence” of the IRS they will snag your guns. Expect them to use slow-scan and ground penetrating radar to search walls, yards, under the patio or deck, the basement, etc. You might even find your hot tub has been drained and moved. Yes, they’ll search your car in the IRS parking lot too.

If you are one of the those people they suspect of having multiple guns and they don’t find any guns at your home, expect them to find and search storage facilities, safety deposit boxes and other places you might use. Warn your relatives who live nearby that they can expect a visit too, even (or perhaps especially) if they never owned a gun. If they are thorough, I’d expect the government agents to check your neighbors to see which of them previously owned a gun and perhaps search their homes, arguing that your neighbor could have held your guns while agents searched your home. Remember that at this point the government authorities don’t have much to fear from the general population. And by the time your complaints are run through the mill, rejected and turned into lawsuits, they’ll have changed the rules.

But you only have one gun you say? Fine. They won’t come looking for it. But they will make sure that possession of ammunition is also a serious crime. Don’t leave any loose cartridges around and where will you hide that case of ammo you rushed out to buy? Expect any “gun parts” to be made illegal at some point in time too. Spare magazines, maybe even old cleaning kits. Anything that says “gun” will be interpreted as “probable cause” to search your entire home. Also expect that you can never use that gun without becoming a serious felon in the eyes of the government. Even if some thug has repeatedly stabbed you with a large knife and threatened to rape your six year old daughter, they won’t forgive you for having the gun. They may even give you extra penalties for using it to save your family. Especially if you are one of the first few hundred people caught this way, they will use you to “set an example”. This will cause people to “bury” their guns away in hiding places, making them all but useless. If the government does come to confiscate it, you won’t be able to get to it fast enough and they will probably find it.

You’ve moved several times since you bought a gun? Remember showing your ID when you bought a gun? Remember writing down your place of birth? Why do you think the government has so many computers? Linking you to your new driver’s license in another state shouldn’t be too hard. Besides, the Treasury folks know where you work. Think you’re safe because you had unregistered guns? Think again. I would expect that the government’s database will contain a lot of old data. Some of it might indicate that a gun was sold to a resident at your address. If they can tie you to ammo sales or range use with your credit card in the previous 2 years you might get a surprise visit. Or that seller might have remembered you bought that gun from him and filled out his gun notice to get “off the hook” for that gun.

The point of this article is that by thinking in limited terms of a “raid” to confiscate guns we lose sight of the alternative methods the government can use. Put yourself in the government’s position and think of your own methods to avoid a conflict. Meanwhile, let’s ensure that every gun owner votes for gun rights this year and the next. You can think of a thousand excuses not to vote, not to help a campaign, not to help another gun owner register to vote. I can think of one important reason to do all of those.

Liberty!

Suggested Reading: Registration & Confiscation Section






Link Posted: 9/14/2009 5:39:31 PM EST
I painted all of my flash hiders bright orange and filled up my safe with Airsoft mags and BB's.

When they come for my guns, I will open up my safe and say, "Look dude, it's all Airsoft"

I'm set.
Link Posted: 9/14/2009 5:39:49 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/14/2009 5:40:41 PM EST by hotbiggun42]
I didnt read your entire post but



Molōn labe !
Link Posted: 9/14/2009 5:41:00 PM EST
they will confiscate our guns the same way they carried out the 9/11 attacks.
Link Posted: 9/14/2009 5:41:21 PM EST

Originally Posted By ftwm:
I painted all of my flash hiders bright orange and filled up my safe with Airsoft mags and BB's.

When they come for my guns, I will open up my safe and say, "Look dude, it's all Airsoft"

I'm set.

Ha ha ha this ^^ Of course, they may just ban airsoft aswell.

Or they can just take my guns from my cold dead fingers. Booby traps work well for the proposed IRS scam.
Link Posted: 9/14/2009 5:43:53 PM EST
All it takes is the first guy to make a stand. He'll likely die, but once federal or local police start getting killed, more patriots will take a stand as well.

We'll see.

In before the yellow stripers with their claims of "nobody will do nothing."
Link Posted: 9/14/2009 5:44:44 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/14/2009 5:45:41 PM EST by Decoder_SS]
I will never give them up. Wrap me in the American flag if I die trying keep them.
Link Posted: 9/14/2009 5:45:19 PM EST
Originally Posted By panda_king:

Originally Posted By ftwm:
I painted all of my flash hiders bright orange and filled up my safe with Airsoft mags and BB's.

When they come for my guns, I will open up my safe and say, "Look dude, it's all Airsoft"

I'm set.

Ha ha ha this ^^ Of course, they may just ban airsoft aswell.

Or they can just take my guns from my cold dead fingers. Booby traps work well for the proposed IRS scam.


Japan hasn't even banned airsoft
Link Posted: 9/14/2009 5:45:19 PM EST
The problem with that scenario is it will only work until the rest of us find out about it. The first few searches will go well, then after news spreads they will start to become more difficult. After a few days/weeks, they will need the swat teams, because the ruse won't work any more.

Before the internet, it might have worked. Now, we would all know their IRS trick after the first day.
Link Posted: 9/14/2009 5:47:00 PM EST
So let me see if I understand correctly what whoever wrote that article is saying:

- With the stroke of a pen, the government is going to create an entirely new class of felons out of previously law abiding citizens (some of the most law abiding citizens there are, statistically speaking).

- State and federal law enforcement agencies are suddenly going to set aside the massive amounts of work they have to do already with existing criminals, so they can try to confiscate a few hundred million privately owned guns. They are going to have no reservations about doing this.

- The stupendous amount of money that would be necessary to do this is suddenly going to magically appear in the budgets of those agencies.

Is that about it?

What planet did the author come from, exactly?

Go study what happened during Prohibition, when the government tried to criminalize alcoholic beverages in this country.

Hint: there was a reason the government did an about-face and repealed Prohibition.

Link Posted: 9/14/2009 5:47:48 PM EST
I read the essay, but I still dont buy it.

If it comes to the point where they are luring me out of my house with fake audits to search for guns, I have already lost. Whats a man with nothing else to lose got to stop him at that point?

I think we are headed down a slippery slope, BUT........judging by the turnout and response of people in DC for the 9/12 protests, can you IMAGINE the response and resistance that gun confiscations would encounter??? If people are willing to do what they did over healthcare, imagine what those same conservatives will do when faced with absolute loss of 2A rights.

Think LOTS and LOTS of casualties.

Link Posted: 9/14/2009 5:47:52 PM EST
With a smokin hot barrel
Link Posted: 9/14/2009 5:48:02 PM EST
They won't take mine...until they kill me.
Link Posted: 9/14/2009 5:48:19 PM EST
Too late. To many people have woken up and will continue to do so.
Link Posted: 9/14/2009 5:50:05 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/14/2009 5:50:17 PM EST by TheRocketmac]
Honestly, those that say they will use force to protect their right are half as likely as the other half of the half who said they wouldn't but would.


Link Posted: 9/14/2009 5:50:28 PM EST

Originally Posted By CLIP67:
Too late. To many people have woken up and will continue to do so.


Link Posted: 9/14/2009 6:01:38 PM EST
They don't have enough agents to carry it out. They would have to rely on local law enforcement or the military to help. I've asked my neighbor and friend who is a cop about his thoughts on confication and would he go along with it. He told me that he would bet he would get shot before the end of the first day. I can see them trying some kind of legislation with ammunition but I don't see them "raiding" houses.
Link Posted: 9/14/2009 6:02:38 PM EST
What I have to wonder is whether paranoid delusions are involuntary or do they feel good for some reason?
Link Posted: 9/14/2009 6:03:47 PM EST

Originally Posted By ftwm:
I painted all of my flash hiders bright orange and filled up my safe with Airsoft mags and BB's.

When they come for my guns, I will open up my safe and say, "Look dude, it's all Airsoft"

I'm set.

Sheer utter brilliance. Magnificent!!

Which got me thinking....

Dude! You got a tattoo!
So do you, dude! Dude, what does my tattoo say?
"Sweet!" What about mine?
"Dude!" What does mine say?
"Sweet!" What about mine?
"Dude!" What does mine say?
"Sweet!" What about mine?


Link Posted: 9/14/2009 6:04:16 PM EST
they will remove my rifles and pistols from my cold dead fingers.
Link Posted: 9/14/2009 6:05:14 PM EST
The amount of manpower to even consider doing that to the bazillion owners is absurd to consider.
Link Posted: 9/14/2009 6:05:49 PM EST
They will just put you on the "No Fly List" no fly/ no passing background check. No judge, no appeal, no parole. 60,000 new names per month.
Search "No fly list" on Youtube
Link Posted: 9/14/2009 6:06:04 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/14/2009 6:06:25 PM EST by kill-9]

Originally Posted By TheGrandIllusion:
they will confiscate our guns the same way they carried out the 9/11 attacks.

Exactly. It'll be worse than y2k.


Link Posted: 9/14/2009 6:07:38 PM EST
Well I say bring it on then! I never would have put on the uniform if I wasn't prepared to die.
Link Posted: 9/14/2009 6:10:39 PM EST
The state and local guys I know would not dream of this crap and have no desire to get shot doing this. Not enought feds out there, the percentages are overwhelming.
Link Posted: 9/14/2009 6:12:42 PM EST


i think if they try they'll just make owning guns illegal and wouldn't do house to house searches.

would be alot easier and would people criminals.

but after going to d.c. on saturday, IMO, the chance of this happening now seems slim, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't stay vigilant



Link Posted: 9/14/2009 6:13:36 PM EST
So we figure out their tactic of distraction. Now whenever we're officially "distracted" we call a buddy to sit overwatch on our house from a few hundred yards away for the afternoon. Gun confiscators show up, two of them go down never to get back up, and your buddy quickly egresses. After a few of those they'll face a police strike.
Link Posted: 9/14/2009 6:15:17 PM EST
Safety recall. Then just not send 'em back.

Link Posted: 9/14/2009 6:16:13 PM EST
After the CA AWB, the state of CA actually did come after my guns.

I kid you not- They actually sent a pre-paid FEDEX box for me to send it in.

What was going on? From memory- "The CA DOJ mistakenly approved the Walther P22 for sale in California. Under the AWB, no firearm with a threaded barrel may be sold. We have enclosed a pre-paid FEDEX box for your convenience."

Tomorrow (if there is any interest), I'll dig up the letter.
Link Posted: 9/14/2009 6:19:08 PM EST
"They" will do it by first stepping over my dead body.
Link Posted: 9/14/2009 6:20:01 PM EST
I guess you didn't see the march on Saturday. I'm thinking it wont happen real easy like.
Link Posted: 9/14/2009 6:20:54 PM EST
They will cull the list of gun owners from the guns listed on your 2009 tax forms...true story, got it in an email
Link Posted: 9/14/2009 6:28:39 PM EST
Meh.

They could make owning ammo such a hassle, or so expensive, all the "hobby" owners sell them off.

They could make the list of infractions that are disqualifiers for possession so numerous legally owning one is an accomplishment.

They could widen the number of offences that justify seizure (unpaid traffic tickets?)

All without a "ban".

Link Posted: 9/14/2009 6:30:46 PM EST
If something like this was ever passed, the Constitution will be null and void and at that point all bets are off. I see men working their jobs by day and performing unthinkable tasks by night.
Link Posted: 9/14/2009 6:32:04 PM EST
Originally Posted By justsayin:
Meh.

They could make owning ammo such a hassle, or so expensive, all the "hobby" owners sell them off.

They could make the list of infractions that are disqualifiers for possession so numerous legally owning one is an accomplishment.

They could widen the number of offences that justify seizure (unpaid traffic tickets?)

All without a "ban".



Then once the numbers are low enough they will outright ban and finish the job. The police will do the collecting, I'm sure anything they take for themselves will be overlooked to ensure their cooperation.
Link Posted: 9/14/2009 6:32:54 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/14/2009 6:35:24 PM EST by omega62]
Here is another thought for you to consider, in addition to my first post above...

American gun owners and gun manufacturers have evolved an actual, symbiotic relationship with the BATFE.

The government regulators NEED us. They cannot justify their existence as government entitites WITHOUT us.

All large bureaucratic organizations have as a fundamental motivating force the need and desire to perpetuate their own existence.

What this means is that there are actual vested interests in government in preserving the status quo with regard to private gun ownership in America.

Don't let anybody fool you into thinking otherwise. Even the most gun hating politician knows, deep down inside, that there are limits to his game.

So yes, they will always be tinkering with new and different forms of "control."

And yes, we will ALWAYS need to remain vigilant, vote for our gun rights, and speak out for our gun rights, especially in these times.

But I doubt that you will see an actual confiscatory ban in the lifetime of anyone reading this.
Link Posted: 9/14/2009 6:32:57 PM EST
Originally Posted By VT4meGunCtrlisAntiUS:
If something like this was ever passed, the Constitution will be null and void and at that point all bets are off. I see men working their jobs by day and performing unthinkable tasks by night.


I dont think many people have the will to perform the acts or horror that would be needed.
Link Posted: 9/14/2009 6:36:00 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/14/2009 6:37:22 PM EST by TxLewis]
Originally Posted By TheGrandIllusion:
they will confiscate our guns the same way they carried out the 9/11 attacks.


A troofer? Wow. Welcome to arfcom, if you are a troofer, prepare to be (rightly) ridiculed.

TXL
Link Posted: 9/14/2009 6:37:57 PM EST
Everyone dies at some point. No escaping reality.
Link Posted: 9/14/2009 6:42:06 PM EST
If public collection points were established across these United States during an amnesty period, they would be fair game targets for armed citizens ready to fight enemies foreign and domestic.
Link Posted: 9/14/2009 6:43:00 PM EST
Doubt it........

I see gun control coming to the US over the period of 50-100 years , slowly increasing controls.

First it's types of weapons , then it's how they can be transferred , then slowly more and more stuff.

Eventually you'll end up 4-5 generations from now with a very scared group of people wanting to get rid of "Great grand-dad's old illegal stuff"


How many people are surrendering the guns grandpa brought back from ww2? I don't know about you , but i've seen quite a few videos of
these gun turn in programs with relics because the kids were scared to death of em.

So , i doubt it'll be in our life time , it might be in our kids life time , but 3-4 generations from now , it could be here......How do you raise
a new generation of firearms enthusiasts when they're illegal?
Link Posted: 9/14/2009 6:44:52 PM EST
I buy person to person, cash at the gun show. Dude that sells don't even know my name.
Link Posted: 9/14/2009 6:45:43 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/14/2009 6:47:17 PM EST by muzlblast]
They don't have to go after your guns. Look for more ammunition regulation and taxation such as what is happening in California. They will never completely strip us of ammo but could eventually squeeze the supply down to where there is very little available.

And nobody will get killed doing it.
Link Posted: 9/14/2009 6:46:14 PM EST
Originally Posted By TheRocketmac:
Honestly, those that say they will use force to protect their right are half as likely as the other half of the half who said they wouldn't but would.





I get SO tired of this self-defeating BS! Got join the other side! There is a great awakening happening to the engine that makes this country work (those in this country who DO work!). Don't pretend that you've got some sort of crystal ball. Don't give me the usual "beer and American Idol" crap either. Just sit down and watch the outrage of people who are TIRED of being made into slaves for the State.
Link Posted: 9/14/2009 6:47:58 PM EST
No, they will make them illegal, and then take them when they find them. Most Americans will approve, because they will be taking them from people labeled as criminals.
Link Posted: 9/14/2009 6:49:41 PM EST
Originally Posted By TheGrandIllusion:
they will confiscate our guns the same way they carried out the 9/11 attacks.


Link Posted: 9/14/2009 6:50:16 PM EST
Originally Posted By Shockergd:
Doubt it........

I see gun control coming to the US over the period of 50-100 years , slowly increasing controls.

First it's types of weapons , then it's how they can be transferred , then slowly more and more stuff.

Eventually you'll end up 4-5 generations from now with a very scared group of people wanting to get rid of "Great grand-dad's old illegal stuff"


How many people are surrendering the guns grandpa brought back from ww2? I don't know about you , but i've seen quite a few videos of
these gun turn in programs with relics because the kids were scared to death of em.

So , i doubt it'll be in our life time , it might be in our kids life time , but 3-4 generations from now , it could be here......How do you raise
a new generation of firearms enthusiasts when they're illegal?


Do you REALLY think that the powder keg situation that we have in this country between the side that wants to be left alone to earn a living and raise their family, and the side that wants to spend their lives sucking Big Brother's tit and have Big Brother steal from the other side is going to go on for another 100 years?

Link Posted: 9/14/2009 6:53:32 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/14/2009 6:54:53 PM EST by Dave_A]

Originally Posted By omega62:
So let me see if I understand correctly what whoever wrote that article is saying:

- With the stroke of a pen, the government is going to create an entirely new class of felons out of previously law abiding citizens (some of the most law abiding citizens there are, statistically speaking).

- State and federal law enforcement agencies are suddenly going to set aside the massive amounts of work they have to do already with existing criminals, so they can try to confiscate a few hundred million privately owned guns. They are going to have no reservations about doing this.

- The stupendous amount of money that would be necessary to do this is suddenly going to magically appear in the budgets of those agencies.

Is that about it?

What planet did the author come from, exactly?

Go study what happened during Prohibition, when the government tried to criminalize alcoholic beverages in this country.

Hint: there was a reason the government did an about-face and repealed Prohibition.


Further, there is historical precident for 'how' countries enact restrictive gun legislation, and it does not involve 'notices' or police going door to door...

They just pass the law, have an 'amnesty period' before it goes into effect, and then wait...

No letters in the mail are needed, no door-to-door confiscation...

Eventually, all of the recalcitrant gun owners get caught when they are stopped for speeding with a gun in the car, or when the police catch them breaking some other law, or they take the gun out and do something stupid with it...

The folks who keep their illegal guns 'hidden in the attic', and never break the law (thus never get their house searched) never get caught - just like the old vets here with unregistered NFA in some dusty trunk...

The libs say 'good enough' (they're 'getting' everyone who brings guns 'out on the street', after all), and get on with their (impossible) attempts to forcibly build utopia, one law at a time...

There's no 'line in the sand' to cross, no great moment of confrontation... No fighting... It's just [b]too easy to do it this way, and that's the way the libs like it...


That's the way it always has worked overseas, and if (God Forbid) it ever happens here, that's the way it will happen...
Link Posted: 9/14/2009 6:56:04 PM EST
'Ideas are more dangerous than guns. We dont allow guns, why should we allow ideas?'

-Josef Stalin
Jewish Ruler of Russia, responsible for Murderering 66 Million Christians

Link Posted: 9/14/2009 6:56:13 PM EST
Never happen. When I hide my guns that survived the unfortunate boating accident, no MF'er will ever find them.
Link Posted: 9/14/2009 6:56:53 PM EST
registration does not lead to confiscation
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