[ARCHIVED THREAD] - carm.org................ (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 11/3/2009 12:18:05 PM EDT
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I have come across this so-called religious website that has made some claims of it's own about certain denominations and their validity as true christian denominations.
They claim that if any of their info about any subject covered on their website is incorrect, then they will make the appropriate changes and have admitted to making some changes in their information in the past, To test the validity and accuracy of this website I would ask that anyone who has any knowledge or information that this website is currently posting bogus information about any of it's subject matter, to find that subject matter to that sites authorities and then report that information that is in error and the disposition of that erronius information back to this thread. The reason I am requesting this thread for this purpose at this time is that some members of this board who especially dedicate substancial time in this forum believe that a great deal,if not all of the information on carm.org is not only bogus, but also a hate orginization bent on damaging their peticular denominational faiths. If there were one out there that was, what I percieved to be attacking my christian faith and I personally had the chance to openly set the record straight with them, even making them make a full apology and also recieve credit for setting the record straight on my own faith, personally I would at least examine what material that they had and go from there. Anyways, just thought it would be interesting for some individuals here to make some changes there if possible and then let everyone here who is interested the results of their own findings through their own scutinization. If this website is not valid with it's information and views about other religious orginizations then I think it should be exposed as such by people who best know the information in question that is to some degree, directed at them. Tally Ho!! 
SAE |
| I and many people I know have posted on CARM's discussion board. Anyone LDS who disagrees with something that has been stated on CARM has been promptly banned. They are interested only in their version of the "truth" and will quash any attempt to offer a rebuttal. Matt Slick (owner of CARM) is well-known in the anti-Mormon community. Interestingly, there is also a good number of "Anti" Matt Slick Christians who speak out against his particular idea of Christianity. There is certainly no general sense of acceptance of Matt Slick in the mainstream Christian community. |
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I and many people I know have posted on CARM's discussion board. Anyone LDS who disagrees with something that has been stated on CARM has been promptly banned. They are interested only in their version of the "truth" and will quash any attempt to offer a rebuttal. Matt Slick (owner of CARM) is well-known in the anti-Mormon community. Interestingly, there is also a good number of "Anti" Matt Slick Christians who speak out against his particular idea of Christianity. There is certainly no general sense of acceptance of Matt Slick in the mainstream Christian community. If this is true, and I will take you at your word, then the information posted there should be exposed as incorrect and bogus if it exists, wouldn't you say? Thanks, SAE |
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I and many people I know have posted on CARM's discussion board. Anyone LDS who disagrees with something that has been stated on CARM has been promptly banned. They are interested only in their version of the "truth" and will quash any attempt to offer a rebuttal. Matt Slick (owner of CARM) is well-known in the anti-Mormon community. Interestingly, there is also a good number of "Anti" Matt Slick Christians who speak out against his particular idea of Christianity. There is certainly no general sense of acceptance of Matt Slick in the mainstream Christian community. If this is true, and I will take you at your word, then the information posted there should be exposed as incorrect and bogus if it exists, wouldn't you say? Thanks, SAE Exposed by who? The LDS who are systematically banned from CARM for disagreeing with Mr. Slick? They generally have better things to do than engage in an obsessive vendetta with someone like Mr. Slick. You might find this surprising, but after making a sincere effort to clarify error and still being rebuffed/banned/etc., most LDS members simply decide not to waste their time. |
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I and many people I know have posted on CARM's discussion board. Anyone LDS who disagrees with something that has been stated on CARM has been promptly banned. They are interested only in their version of the "truth" and will quash any attempt to offer a rebuttal. Matt Slick (owner of CARM) is well-known in the anti-Mormon community. Interestingly, there is also a good number of "Anti" Matt Slick Christians who speak out against his particular idea of Christianity. There is certainly no general sense of acceptance of Matt Slick in the mainstream Christian community. If this is true, and I will take you at your word, then the information posted there should be exposed as incorrect and bogus if it exists, wouldn't you say? Thanks, SAE Exposed by who? The LDS who are systematically banned from CARM for disagreeing with Mr. Slick? They generally have better things to do than engage in an obsessive vendetta with someone like Mr. Slick. You might find this surprising, but after making a sincere effort to clarify error and still being rebuffed/banned/etc., most LDS members simply decide not to waste their time. OK. I understand the deal here. I wasn't talking about going over there with a valid argument and taking a bullet between the eyes from Matt Slick,(sounds like a used car salesman  ) or one of his associates.
I was simply stating that if anyone mainly LDS could check out the site and find some information that they deem inappropriate for the claims made, bring it back to this thread and tell us why that information is not accurate. My personal goal here is to see if what I have been reading and studying on carm.org is not valid or true. If this happens to be the case, then I may have to readjust some of my personal veiws about other denominations other than my own. You know, like the old saying,''No one is born knowing everything'', if you catch my drift on this one. Thanks, SAE |
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I and many people I know have posted on CARM's discussion board. Anyone LDS who disagrees with something that has been stated on CARM has been promptly banned. They are interested only in their version of the "truth" and will quash any attempt to offer a rebuttal. Matt Slick (owner of CARM) is well-known in the anti-Mormon community. Interestingly, there is also a good number of "Anti" Matt Slick Christians who speak out against his particular idea of Christianity. There is certainly no general sense of acceptance of Matt Slick in the mainstream Christian community. If this is true, and I will take you at your word, then the information posted there should be exposed as incorrect and bogus if it exists, wouldn't you say? Thanks, SAE It has been many times over. I'm not going to do it again here, if that's where this is heading. |
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I and many people I know have posted on CARM's discussion board. Anyone LDS who disagrees with something that has been stated on CARM has been promptly banned. They are interested only in their version of the "truth" and will quash any attempt to offer a rebuttal. Matt Slick (owner of CARM) is well-known in the anti-Mormon community. Interestingly, there is also a good number of "Anti" Matt Slick Christians who speak out against his particular idea of Christianity. There is certainly no general sense of acceptance of Matt Slick in the mainstream Christian community. If this is true, and I will take you at your word, then the information posted there should be exposed as incorrect and bogus if it exists, wouldn't you say? Thanks, SAE Exposed by who? The LDS who are systematically banned from CARM for disagreeing with Mr. Slick? They generally have better things to do than engage in an obsessive vendetta with someone like Mr. Slick. You might find this surprising, but after making a sincere effort to clarify error and still being rebuffed/banned/etc., most LDS members simply decide not to waste their time. OK. I understand the deal here. I wasn't talking about going over there with a valid argument and taking a bullet between the eyes from Matt Slick,(sounds like a used car salesman ) or one of his associates.
I was simply stating that if anyone mainly LDS could check out the site and find some information that they deem inappropriate for the claims made, bring it back to this thread and tell us why that information is not accurate. My personal goal here is to see if what I have been reading and studying on carm.org is not valid or true. If this happens to be the case, then I may have to readjust some of my personal veiws about other denominations other than my own. You know, like the old saying,''No one is born knowing everything'', if you catch my drift on this one. Thanks, SAE If you're "studying" at CARM to get the anti-LDS perspective, then I would direct you to fairlds.org (it's linked on the sticky at the top of the Religion forum). Any topic (and many others) brought up at CARM are there. I think that would be a better use of everyone's time than an LDS poster playing messenger-boy. |
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I and many people I know have posted on CARM's discussion board. Anyone LDS who disagrees with something that has been stated on CARM has been promptly banned. They are interested only in their version of the "truth" and will quash any attempt to offer a rebuttal. Matt Slick (owner of CARM) is well-known in the anti-Mormon community. Interestingly, there is also a good number of "Anti" Matt Slick Christians who speak out against his particular idea of Christianity. There is certainly no general sense of acceptance of Matt Slick in the mainstream Christian community. If this is true, and I will take you at your word, then the information posted there should be exposed as incorrect and bogus if it exists, wouldn't you say? Thanks, SAE It has been many times over. I'm not going to do it again here, if that's where this is heading. Are you saying that information has been taken directly off of carm.org, brought here and exposed as incorrect? Thanks, SAE |
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I and many people I know have posted on CARM's discussion board. Anyone LDS who disagrees with something that has been stated on CARM has been promptly banned. They are interested only in their version of the "truth" and will quash any attempt to offer a rebuttal. Matt Slick (owner of CARM) is well-known in the anti-Mormon community. Interestingly, there is also a good number of "Anti" Matt Slick Christians who speak out against his particular idea of Christianity. There is certainly no general sense of acceptance of Matt Slick in the mainstream Christian community. If this is true, and I will take you at your word, then the information posted there should be exposed as incorrect and bogus if it exists, wouldn't you say? Thanks, SAE Exposed by who? The LDS who are systematically banned from CARM for disagreeing with Mr. Slick? They generally have better things to do than engage in an obsessive vendetta with someone like Mr. Slick. You might find this surprising, but after making a sincere effort to clarify error and still being rebuffed/banned/etc., most LDS members simply decide not to waste their time. OK. I understand the deal here. I wasn't talking about going over there with a valid argument and taking a bullet between the eyes from Matt Slick,(sounds like a used car salesman ) or one of his associates.
I was simply stating that if anyone mainly LDS could check out the site and find some information that they deem inappropriate for the claims made, bring it back to this thread and tell us why that information is not accurate. My personal goal here is to see if what I have been reading and studying on carm.org is not valid or true. If this happens to be the case, then I may have to readjust some of my personal veiws about other denominations other than my own. You know, like the old saying,''No one is born knowing everything'', if you catch my drift on this one. Thanks, SAE If you're "studying" at CARM to get the anti-LDS perspective, then I would direct you to fairlds.org (it's linked on the sticky at the top of the Religion forum). Any topic (and many others) brought up at CARM are there. I think that would be a better use of everyone's time than an LDS poster playing messenger-boy. I see. |
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... Anyone LDS who disagrees with something that has been stated on CARM has been promptly banned... I have heard, but have personally experienced, the same thing for Catholics. See this is the point and reason for this thread beloved. There are people that actively and consistantly post here on arfcom who are LDS, Pentecostals, Catholics and many others who this website alledges that are not valid Christian orginizations or ministries. We all have seen these threads were certain individuals here that also agree that some of these are not valid also for various reasons of their own. Some here when a disagreement like this starts, taking some of these negitive allegations as it pertains to their peticular denominations, firing back with comments like,''hater'',''bigot'', and the like as a response to questions about some ideology and practices within their peticular faiths, namely LDS. This potshoting back and forth over doctrine and practices to me is counter-productive and most negitive in light of what Jesus Christ has to say about loving and understanding your nieghbor. This happens to be number two on the list right after loving God with everything that is within you. These two commandments are what our Lord and Savior said that the the whole Law of God and the Prophets were and are currently based on. So then, is it any wonder that these little conversations about someone's or anyone's questioning about another's faith whether christian or not will always break down into a emotional and oftentimes inmature posting brawl that only leads to more strife, mistrust and hard feelings than the last time some of us went there. I am saying this and quite bluntly for a reason and not out of trying to mis-prove anything about someones worship of their God whether real and based on the truth or not. I actually at this point am beginning to think that there are some who post here that wouldn't know a friend trying to help a situation and rectify such if they tripped over such a one in broad daylight, with some of the negitive attitudes going round about ever getting another to see what they see in that sense and why. Hey, I say that if you cannot go to a website that is openly and blatantly hostile to your point of view and the views of your church, and tell someone like me and others here that the information that they post there is not only false, but abominable in your sight and to your fath as it pertains to the way that you believe and worship, and take something from there and tell us why it is dead wrong then what's the deal? This thread is not trying to disprove anything. This thread should be veiwed by some out here in arfcomland as an opportunity. If you don't take advantage now, then there will be some that will think or state latter on that you don't really care about setting this thing straight one way or the other, or that you are not willing to face the wind blowing in your face so to speak, because you hold a defeatest attitude about ever really being understood about your peticular denomination. Also as long as this thread exists on this forum you do have the opportunity to do what you think is right. If you choose to do nothing, then that certainly is your peragitive. Some of you say that this Matt Slick guy, is certainly no friend to the Christian community at large. If this is so, as some here have stated in thier comments about him, then if it were my faith that he was tearing down, I would definitley do anything I could to discredit this guy from doing my denomination discredit by misreprentations about my denomination or even outright lies. Personally I would respond and strongly so. Is it that you are afraid that you will be promptly banned by brother Hardshell for doing such here? Hardly. Thanks, SAE |
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I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish. Throwing up a website full of religious assaults and saying "go disprove it" isn't really a very productive approach. Nor is it time effective. Between work and family I don't have the time to go around disputing every barrage of barbed claims that get thrown out there.
Tell you what. If you have a particular question to help you better understand another religion, why not ask it? Avoid the old shotgun approach of asking 20 barbed questions and focus on understanding one principle at a time. Are you trying to better understand someone, or are you trying to validate a site like CARM? |
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I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish. Throwing up a website full of religious assaults and saying "go disprove it" isn't really a very productive approach. Nor is it time effective. Between work and family I don't have the time to go around disputing every barrage of barbed claims that get thrown out there. Tell you what. If you have a particular question to help you better understand another religion, why not ask it? Avoid the old shotgun approach of asking 20 barbed questions and focus on understanding one principle at a time. Are you trying to better understand someone, or are you trying to validate a site like CARM? Hey man, I say let the chips fall where they may. I realize that I know little about some of the doctrines that carm.org is openly attacking right now. However I'm guessing that you yourself, Shane333 know all about it and then some. Im also guessing that within mere minutes that you could come up with at least several sticking points that you would deem as not only mistruth, but also outside the will of God for them to do so in such an open forum such as the internet,for the world openly to see on demand, wouldn't you agree? How many hits do you think that carm.org gets everyday from the general public,ten, fifty,one hundered, a thousand? I'm certainly not endorsing carm.org, or any other website like it, are you? Thanks, SAE |
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I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish. Throwing up a website full of religious assaults and saying "go disprove it" isn't really a very productive approach. Nor is it time effective. Between work and family I don't have the time to go around disputing every barrage of barbed claims that get thrown out there. Tell you what. If you have a particular question to help you better understand another religion, why not ask it? Avoid the old shotgun approach of asking 20 barbed questions and focus on understanding one principle at a time. Are you trying to better understand someone, or are you trying to validate a site like CARM? Hey man, I say let the chips fall where they may. I realize that I know little about some of the doctrines that carm.org is openly attacking right now. However I'm guessing that you yourself, Shane333 know all about it and then some. Im also guessing that within mere minutes that you could come up with at least several sticking points that you would deem as not only mistruth, but also outside the will of God for them to do so in such an open forum such as the internet,for the world openly to see on demand, wouldn't you agree? How many hits do you think that carm.org gets everyday from the general public,ten, fifty,one hundered, a thousand? I'm certainly not endorsing carm.org, or any other website like it, are you? Thanks, SAE Hey SAE, if you have a question, ask away. Personally I find attack sites distasteful. I glanced over that site before and felt it was a waste of time. Why should I focus on negative religious arguments? I prefer discussions of a friendly environment. So again, if you have friendly questions, ask away. |
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Hey man, I say let the chips fall where they may. Hey man, are you serious? You really want to argue that bad? Seriously. You got a question, ask it. And I personally went through five or six false allegations against the LDS church from that particular anti-Mormon "Christian" website in the *other* thread... If you don't think that I did a good of answering them, re-ask them... But seriously... "Let the chips fall where they may..." Are you kidding?...?...? You have got to be... |
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I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish. Throwing up a website full of religious assaults and saying "go disprove it" isn't really a very productive approach. Nor is it time effective. Between work and family I don't have the time to go around disputing every barrage of barbed claims that get thrown out there. Tell you what. If you have a particular question to help you better understand another religion, why not ask it? Avoid the old shotgun approach of asking 20 barbed questions and focus on understanding one principle at a time. Are you trying to better understand someone, or are you trying to validate a site like CARM? Hey man, I say let the chips fall where they may. I realize that I know little about some of the doctrines that carm.org is openly attacking right now. However I'm guessing that you yourself, Shane333 know all about it and then some. Im also guessing that within mere minutes that you could come up with at least several sticking points that you would deem as not only mistruth, but also outside the will of God for them to do so in such an open forum such as the internet,for the world openly to see on demand, wouldn't you agree? How many hits do you think that carm.org gets everyday from the general public,ten, fifty,one hundered, a thousand? I'm certainly not endorsing carm.org, or any other website like it, are you? Thanks, SAE Hey SAE, if you have a question, ask away. Personally I find attack sites distasteful. I glanced over that site before and felt it was a waste of time. Why should I focus on negative religious arguments? I prefer discussions of a friendly environment. So again, if you have friendly questions, ask away. Personally and unfortunatley I see two possible senarios here concerning your reluctance to take on what I percieve from some of your previous posts pertaining to taking these people on who say that your religion is one that posseses a non-christian base. Hey, sorry if you find websites like these distasteful as you put it. Do you think some of the outright garbage that Jesus Christ put up with from a bunch of devil following lackies was found to be distastful by Him? Suppose our Lord simply decidede that the salvation of man wasn't worth His time and effort and He just threw in the towel because He just didn't want to get involved like He did? Sounds rather on the apathetic side on your part about the friendly question thing in my humble opinion. I may not know much about the Mormon church in general but I do know this one thing very well my friend, if God is in anything, then it is a success and that is a understatement in purely human terms, if someone were to ask me. But If God is not in this, and it is not directly blessed by Him, then it will neither succeed nor will it prosper. This goes for anything, anywhere and at anytime. If your cause is indeed righteous and valid concerning the kingdom of God, then what should you or anyone else who was called by His name before the foundation of this very planet on which we live be concerned about anyway? That someone might call you an idiot for your views and beliefs? I'm thinking that very well may have already come to pass for you and me both, as well as many who post here and call themselves christians. Yes Jesus has called us to peace and that is a fact. However God dosen't expect His people to be used as a door mat or be utillized as a object to be scorned as a laughing stock either. In my opinion this is exactly what carm.org is doing right now to Mormonism and it's members. They have also in my opinion called you out Shane333. You say you have merely only glanced at this website. However recently on another thread you stated that you have veiwed websites such as carm.org,''87 thousand times''. So it seems to me by that statement alone you might not be being honest about the length at which you have not only veiwed carm.org, but possibly many other simular to it. Were is your faith concerning these people who relentlessly bash your faith on a continual basis? You say that they stand in error, right? To me if they were doing this to my denomination I certainly would try to set the record straight not only for myself and my fellow christians, but also grow my faith in God knowing that anyone who blesses me shall be blessed and anyone who curses me shall be cursed. You know the blessing of Abraham that is upon all christians. If there is a philistine giant about and his name is Matt Slick then as a true believer in Jesus Christ do you believe that God expects Mr. Slick to stand on the battle line and taunt with slanderous accusations against the armies of the living God without rebuttal or redress? I say never and a day! Thanks, SAE |
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I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish. Throwing up a website full of religious assaults and saying "go disprove it" isn't really a very productive approach. Nor is it time effective. Between work and family I don't have the time to go around disputing every barrage of barbed claims that get thrown out there. Tell you what. If you have a particular question to help you better understand another religion, why not ask it? Avoid the old shotgun approach of asking 20 barbed questions and focus on understanding one principle at a time. Are you trying to better understand someone, or are you trying to validate a site like CARM? Hey man, I say let the chips fall where they may. I realize that I know little about some of the doctrines that carm.org is openly attacking right now. However I'm guessing that you yourself, Shane333 know all about it and then some. Im also guessing that within mere minutes that you could come up with at least several sticking points that you would deem as not only mistruth, but also outside the will of God for them to do so in such an open forum such as the internet,for the world openly to see on demand, wouldn't you agree? How many hits do you think that carm.org gets everyday from the general public,ten, fifty,one hundered, a thousand? I'm certainly not endorsing carm.org, or any other website like it, are you? Thanks, SAE Hey SAE, if you have a question, ask away. Personally I find attack sites distasteful. I glanced over that site before and felt it was a waste of time. Why should I focus on negative religious arguments? I prefer discussions of a friendly environment. So again, if you have friendly questions, ask away. Personally and unfortunatley I see two possible senarios here concerning your reluctance to take on what I percieve from some of your previous posts pertaining to taking these people on who say that your religion is one that posseses a non-christian base. Hey, sorry if you find websites like these distasteful as you put it. Do you think some of the outright garbage that Jesus Christ put up with from a bunch of devil following lackies was found to be distastful by Him? Suppose our Lord simply decidede that the salvation of man wasn't worth His time and effort and He just threw in the towel because He just didn't want to get involved like He did? Sounds rather on the apathetic side on your part about the friendly question thing in my humble opinion. I may not know much about the Mormon church in general but I do know this one thing very well my friend, if God is in anything, then it is a success and that is a understatement in purely human terms, if someone were to ask me. But If God is not in this, and it is not directly blessed by Him, then it will neither succeed nor will it prosper. This goes for anything, anywhere and at anytime. If your cause is indeed righteous and valid concerning the kingdom of God, then what should you or anyone else who was called by His name before the foundation of this very planet on which we live be concerned about anyway? That someone might call you an idiot for your views and beliefs? I'm thinking that very well may have already come to pass for you and me both, as well as many who post here and call themselves christians. Yes Jesus has called us to peace and that is a fact. However God dosen't expect His people to be used as a door mat or be utillized as a object to be scorned as a laughing stock either. In my opinion this is exactly what carm.org is doing right now to Mormonism and it's members. They have also in my opinion called you out Shane333. You say you have merely only glanced at this website. However recently on another thread you stated that you have veiwed websites such as carm.org,''87 thousand times''. So it seems to me by that statement alone you might not be being honest about the length at which you have not only veiwed carm.org, but possibly many other simular to it. Were is your faith concerning these people who relentlessly bash your faith on a continual basis? You say that they stand in error, right? To me if they were doing this to my denomination I certainly would try to set the record straight not only for myself and my fellow christians, but also grow my faith in God knowing that anyone who blesses me shall be blessed and anyone who curses me shall be cursed. You know the blessing of Abraham that is upon all christians. If there is a philistine giant about and his name is Matt Slick then as a true believer in Jesus Christ do you believe that God expects Mr. Slick to stand on the battle line and taunt with slanderous accusations against the armies of the living God without rebuttal or redress? I say never and a day! Thanks, SAE Frankly I care little if Mr. Slick calls me out. He isn't a threat to me nor to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Joseph Smith faced opposition from the age of 14 onward, in the end resulting in his murder, yet it did nothing to impede the work God had for him to do. His legacy continued on after his death. The Church continued receiving persecution, often armed persecution, for decades and decades. Didn't do anything to stop the growth of the Church. As for Mr. Slick and his accusations against the Church, he isn't Jesus Christ dealing with pharisees, though you attempt to draw a comparison between the two. Mr. Slick is more akin to swine. Wrestling with the swine accomplishes little except to get you dirty and provides sport for the pig. I think Jesus would have referred to casting pearls in this context. I've also noticed that you seem unable to present anything from a personal standpoint, but seem to be relying on the dirty work of others. In this case, the work of Mr. Slick who from both LDS experiences and Catholic experiences has a reputation of avoiding honest debate. As for your rather un-brotherly suggestion that I'm less than honest for using the term "87 thousand", you're either completely ignorant of common jokes at AR15.com, or flat out trolling for a fight. I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you're a victim of ignorance, so I'll explain to you that the use of "87" on AR15.com is a term of jest that has been used on the site for a few years now. It would be like a fan of the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy using the answer "42" when asked a query. My point, which involved an attempt at levity that I'm amazed you missed, is that Mr. Slick's approach is old and boring to any LDS member that's been on the internet for more than a month. If you have questions I've given you multiple invites to present them. I offer you another invite: If you have questions about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or its doctrine please feel free to share your questions with us. Rather than hide behind someone else's dirty work, present us with your own thoughts and questions. |
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They have also in my opinion called you out Shane333. You say you have merely only glanced at this website. However recently on another thread you stated that you have veiwed websites such as carm.org,''87 thousand times''. [key sarcasm] Viewed, or glanced. I serisiously want to know, dang it. You have been put on notice, Shane... You have been called out! Either you viewed the website, or you glanced at it... You could not have possibly done both!!! I want to know!!! Because every true believer knows you cannot view something and glance at it too.... Yeah, that is right, brother, you have been called out... SAE is right, man. If you glanced at it or viewed it, is very super seriously important... Your honesty is on the line here, my friend... [end sarcasm] And no true professional and respectful discussion is complete without a semantics debate... SAE, viewed or glanced  Come on, man. Seriously. That is a little...
87... I am relatively new to ARFCOM, and knew what 87 was on my second trip to this site... And I am a little slow but I caught the 87 thousand times joke pretty quickly... 87... Oh hellz yeah. Hellz, hellz, yeah! 
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As one who denies the trinity doctine, and a few other "mainstream" beliefs, my experience there mirrored the LDS experience. Matt Slick seemed to come across as an irrational moonbat, At the time I actually believed as he does, but had some questions and wanted to see both sides of the argument. It was there that I found rational arguements on one side and irrational arguments on the other.
The place does not represent Christ well. 
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I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish. Throwing up a website full of religious assaults and saying "go disprove it" isn't really a very productive approach. Nor is it time effective. Between work and family I don't have the time to go around disputing every barrage of barbed claims that get thrown out there. Tell you what. If you have a particular question to help you better understand another religion, why not ask it? Avoid the old shotgun approach of asking 20 barbed questions and focus on understanding one principle at a time. Are you trying to better understand someone, or are you trying to validate a site like CARM? Hey man, I say let the chips fall where they may. I realize that I know little about some of the doctrines that carm.org is openly attacking right now. However I'm guessing that you yourself, Shane333 know all about it and then some. Im also guessing that within mere minutes that you could come up with at least several sticking points that you would deem as not only mistruth, but also outside the will of God for them to do so in such an open forum such as the internet,for the world openly to see on demand, wouldn't you agree? How many hits do you think that carm.org gets everyday from the general public,ten, fifty,one hundered, a thousand? I'm certainly not endorsing carm.org, or any other website like it, are you? Thanks, SAE Hey SAE, if you have a question, ask away. Personally I find attack sites distasteful. I glanced over that site before and felt it was a waste of time. Why should I focus on negative religious arguments? I prefer discussions of a friendly environment. So again, if you have friendly questions, ask away. Personally and unfortunatley I see two possible senarios here concerning your reluctance to take on what I percieve from some of your previous posts pertaining to taking these people on who say that your religion is one that posseses a non-christian base. Hey, sorry if you find websites like these distasteful as you put it. Do you think some of the outright garbage that Jesus Christ put up with from a bunch of devil following lackies was found to be distastful by Him? Suppose our Lord simply decidede that the salvation of man wasn't worth His time and effort and He just threw in the towel because He just didn't want to get involved like He did? Sounds rather on the apathetic side on your part about the friendly question thing in my humble opinion. I may not know much about the Mormon church in general but I do know this one thing very well my friend, if God is in anything, then it is a success and that is a understatement in purely human terms, if someone were to ask me. But If God is not in this, and it is not directly blessed by Him, then it will neither succeed nor will it prosper. This goes for anything, anywhere and at anytime. If your cause is indeed righteous and valid concerning the kingdom of God, then what should you or anyone else who was called by His name before the foundation of this very planet on which we live be concerned about anyway? That someone might call you an idiot for your views and beliefs? I'm thinking that very well may have already come to pass for you and me both, as well as many who post here and call themselves christians. Yes Jesus has called us to peace and that is a fact. However God dosen't expect His people to be used as a door mat or be utillized as a object to be scorned as a laughing stock either. In my opinion this is exactly what carm.org is doing right now to Mormonism and it's members. They have also in my opinion called you out Shane333. You say you have merely only glanced at this website. However recently on another thread you stated that you have veiwed websites such as carm.org,''87 thousand times''. So it seems to me by that statement alone you might not be being honest about the length at which you have not only veiwed carm.org, but possibly many other simular to it. Were is your faith concerning these people who relentlessly bash your faith on a continual basis? You say that they stand in error, right? To me if they were doing this to my denomination I certainly would try to set the record straight not only for myself and my fellow christians, but also grow my faith in God knowing that anyone who blesses me shall be blessed and anyone who curses me shall be cursed. You know the blessing of Abraham that is upon all christians. If there is a philistine giant about and his name is Matt Slick then as a true believer in Jesus Christ do you believe that God expects Mr. Slick to stand on the battle line and taunt with slanderous accusations against the armies of the living God without rebuttal or redress? I say never and a day! Thanks, SAE Frankly I care little if Mr. Slick calls me out. He isn't a threat to me nor to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Joseph Smith faced opposition from the age of 14 onward, in the end resulting in his murder, yet it did nothing to impede the work God had for him to do. His legacy continued on after his death. The Church continued receiving persecution, often armed persecution, for decades and decades. Didn't do anything to stop the growth of the Church. As for Mr. Slick and his accusations against the Church, he isn't Jesus Christ dealing with pharisees, though you attempt to draw a comparison between the two. Mr. Slick is more akin to swine. Wrestling with the swine accomplishes little except to get you dirty and provides sport for the pig. I think Jesus would have referred to casting pearls in this context. I've also noticed that you seem unable to present anything from a personal standpoint, but seem to be relying on the dirty work of others. In this case, the work of Mr. Slick who from both LDS experiences and Catholic experiences has a reputation of avoiding honest debate. As for your rather un-brotherly suggestion that I'm less than honest for using the term "87 thousand", you're either completely ignorant of common jokes at AR15.com, or flat out trolling for a fight. I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you're a victim of ignorance, so I'll explain to you that the use of "87" on AR15.com is a term of jest that has been used on the site for a few years now. It would be like a fan of the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy using the answer "42" when asked a query. My point, which involved an attempt at levity that I'm amazed you missed, is that Mr. Slick's approach is old and boring to any LDS member that's been on the internet for more than a month. If you have questions I've given you multiple invites to present them. I offer you another invite: If you have questions about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or its doctrine please feel free to share your questions with us. Rather than hide behind someone else's dirty work, present us with your own thoughts and questions. I understand. Thanks SAE |
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Personally and unfortunatley I see two possible senarios here concerning your reluctance to take on what I percieve from some of your previous posts pertaining to taking these people on who say that your religion is one that posseses a non-christian base. Hey, sorry if you find websites like these distasteful as you put it. Do you think some of the outright garbage that Jesus Christ put up with from a bunch of devil following lackies was found to be distastful by Him? Suppose our Lord simply decidede that the salvation of man wasn't worth His time and effort and He just threw in the towel because He just didn't want to get involved like He did? Sounds rather on the apathetic side on your part about the friendly question thing in my humble opinion. I may not know much about the Mormon church in general but I do know this one thing very well my friend, if God is in anything, then it is a success and that is a understatement in purely human terms, if someone were to ask me. But If God is not in this, and it is not directly blessed by Him, then it will neither succeed nor will it prosper. This goes for anything, anywhere and at anytime. If your cause is indeed righteous and valid concerning the kingdom of God, then what should you or anyone else who was called by His name before the foundation of this very planet on which we live be concerned about anyway? That someone might call you an idiot for your views and beliefs? I'm thinking that very well may have already come to pass for you and me both, as well as many who post here and call themselves christians. Yes Jesus has called us to peace and that is a fact. However God dosen't expect His people to be used as a door mat or be utillized as a object to be scorned as a laughing stock either. In my opinion this is exactly what carm.org is doing right now to Mormonism and it's members. They have also in my opinion called you out Shane333. You say you have merely only glanced at this website. However recently on another thread you stated that you have veiwed websites such as carm.org,''87 thousand times''. So it seems to me by that statement alone you might not be being honest about the length at which you have not only veiwed carm.org, but possibly many other simular to it. Were is your faith concerning these people who relentlessly bash your faith on a continual basis? You say that they stand in error, right? To me if they were doing this to my denomination I certainly would try to set the record straight not only for myself and my fellow christians, but also grow my faith in God knowing that anyone who blesses me shall be blessed and anyone who curses me shall be cursed. You know the blessing of Abraham that is upon all christians. If there is a philistine giant about and his name is Matt Slick then as a true believer in Jesus Christ do you believe that God expects Mr. Slick to stand on the battle line and taunt with slanderous accusations against the armies of the living God without rebuttal or redress? I say never and a day! Thanks, SAE SAE, There are many who have defended the beliefs of their religion against CARM by sending him rebuttals and corrections. The problem is that Mr. Slick claims to being open to corrections of the info he presents, but that could not be farther from the truth. The only group he hates more than Mormons is the Catholic Church (and it may very well be a tie in that regard!). Well-educated and scholarly Catholic apologists have sent corrections on his spurious accusations, misrepresentations, and distortions of Catholic doctrines, yet he ignores it because it doesn't fit with his own personal interpretation of his Bible. Nothing else will convince him that he is wrong except his own interpretation. The reason folks like Shane333 won't bother to refute him on LDS teachings, and why folks like myself (BA in Theology from one of the most dynamic orthodox Catholic universities in the US), don't bother defending Catholicism against him is because we recognize the difference between defending our religion and beating our heads against a brick wall. We have seen men and women who are more learned than ourselves reach out to him and receive a cold shoulder (at best). They have already shaken his dust from their feet (Luke 9:5), so we see choose to seek debate with people who are more open-minded. Sadly, there are people on this forum who would fit right in with CARM. |
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Personally and unfortunatley I see two possible senarios here concerning your reluctance to take on what I percieve from some of your previous posts pertaining to taking these people on who say that your religion is one that posseses a non-christian base. Hey, sorry if you find websites like these distasteful as you put it. Do you think some of the outright garbage that Jesus Christ put up with from a bunch of devil following lackies was found to be distastful by Him? Suppose our Lord simply decidede that the salvation of man wasn't worth His time and effort and He just threw in the towel because He just didn't want to get involved like He did? Sounds rather on the apathetic side on your part about the friendly question thing in my humble opinion. I may not know much about the Mormon church in general but I do know this one thing very well my friend, if God is in anything, then it is a success and that is a understatement in purely human terms, if someone were to ask me. But If God is not in this, and it is not directly blessed by Him, then it will neither succeed nor will it prosper. This goes for anything, anywhere and at anytime. If your cause is indeed righteous and valid concerning the kingdom of God, then what should you or anyone else who was called by His name before the foundation of this very planet on which we live be concerned about anyway? That someone might call you an idiot for your views and beliefs? I'm thinking that very well may have already come to pass for you and me both, as well as many who post here and call themselves christians. Yes Jesus has called us to peace and that is a fact. However God dosen't expect His people to be used as a door mat or be utillized as a object to be scorned as a laughing stock either. In my opinion this is exactly what carm.org is doing right now to Mormonism and it's members. They have also in my opinion called you out Shane333. You say you have merely only glanced at this website. However recently on another thread you stated that you have veiwed websites such as carm.org,''87 thousand times''. So it seems to me by that statement alone you might not be being honest about the length at which you have not only veiwed carm.org, but possibly many other simular to it. Were is your faith concerning these people who relentlessly bash your faith on a continual basis? You say that they stand in error, right? To me if they were doing this to my denomination I certainly would try to set the record straight not only for myself and my fellow christians, but also grow my faith in God knowing that anyone who blesses me shall be blessed and anyone who curses me shall be cursed. You know the blessing of Abraham that is upon all christians. If there is a philistine giant about and his name is Matt Slick then as a true believer in Jesus Christ do you believe that God expects Mr. Slick to stand on the battle line and taunt with slanderous accusations against the armies of the living God without rebuttal or redress? I say never and a day! Thanks, SAE SAE, There are many who have defended the beliefs of their religion against CARM by sending him rebuttals and corrections. The problem is that Mr. Slick claims to being open to corrections of the info he presents, but that could not be farther from the truth. The only group he hates more than Mormons is the Catholic Church (and it may very well be a tie in that regard!). Well-educated and scholarly Catholic apologists have sent corrections on his spurious accusations, misrepresentations, and distortions of Catholic doctrines, yet he ignores it because it doesn't fit with his own personal interpretation of his Bible. Nothing else will convince him that he is wrong except his own interpretation. The reason folks like Shane333 won't bother to refute him on LDS teachings, and why folks like myself (BA in Theology from one of the most dynamic orthodox Catholic universities in the US), don't bother defending Catholicism against him is because we recognize the difference between defending our religion and beating our heads against a brick wall. We have seen men and women who are more learned than ourselves reach out to him and receive a cold shoulder (at best). They have already shaken his dust from their feet (Luke 9:5), so we see choose to seek debate with people who are more open-minded. Sadly, there are people on this forum who would fit right in with CARM. loonybin, First off, let me thank you for your informative veiws concerning this matter. I understand as well as others here what appears to be going on with carm.org as well as other websites with this type of agenda and general belief strategy. I will state again that the orginal intention of this peticular thread is for anyone who is a member here to have the opportunity to post here anything concerning what they believe is false information about their own peticular denomination here and explain why it is false,misleading or a down right lie. I personally cannot do this in a satisfactory way, as I would like to if this kind of false information does in fact exist because I personally don't know all the ins and outs of some of the denominations well enough to at least in my own mind come up with the truth of whether the information given on certain websites like carm.org are true and correct or not. Websites such as carm.org are laying out some information about certain denominations that they deem false and un-christian. Their are also members of this board that also claim that the information that is given on websites like carm.org is false and un-christian also. So then, who is it that the layman of such a subject such as this with all the high running emotions and contraversy is supposed to believe? You? Them? I started this thread so it could be a safe haven so to speak that would allow for a non-combative enviroment, so that someone who makes claims such as yourself about websites like carm.org could make their case about subject matter posted on these other websites in order to empower those who may have never had this sort of opportunity to do so before and also educate the rest of us with some real information and real insight. I mean really, this bickering back and forth has no educational value in it whatsoever, among other things. It is wholly inmature and will not be a blessing to anyone. In my way of thinking understanding comes through constructive thinking. This is what I am trying to build here. Only one way, through education of an issue from all sides and with mutual respect for one another, will have any real and lasting purpose concerning or connected to anything we might discuss here no matter where it might lead, in my opinion. The other way, does not. Thanks, SAE |
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I will state again that the original intention of this particular thread is for anyone who is a member here to have the opportunity to post here anything concerning what they believe is false information about their own particular denomination here and explain why it is false,misleading or a down right lie. ***** I started this thread so it could be a safe haven so to speak that would allow for a non-combative enviroment, so that someone who makes claims such as yourself about websites like carm.org could make their case about subject matter posted on these other websites in order to empower those who may have never had this sort of opportunity to do so before and also educate the rest of us with some real information and real insight. I mean really, this bickering back and forth has no educational value in it whatsoever, among other things. It is wholly inmature and will not be a blessing to anyone. In my way of thinking understanding comes through constructive thinking. This is what I am trying to build here. Only one way, through education of an issue from all sides and with mutual respect for one another, will have any real and lasting purpose concerning or connected to anything we might discuss here no matter where it might lead, in my opinion. I am truly skeptical at your stated intention. The reason is that I recall a while back that you asked some questions, I believe the topic was about the Sacrament of Reconciliation (confession), but I'll have to do some more digging in the archives to find it. You were given answers and a link to catholic.com. Yet rather than engaging in an educational discussion, or with mutual respect, as you claim to want to do, you posted this in a different thread: I intentionally applied a little pressure on one of them to see what their response would be about ''Church'' doctrine..
In all honesty the response I recieved was about what I expected. Before I say this about my views concerning the Catholic church in general I will say this: There are certainly many wonderfull,loving and gracious people connected to that orginization and I truly mean this, clergy included. However the Catholic websites that I was furnished by one person, although full of scripture and verses pertaining to church rule,doctrine and policies for the most part indicate to me at least personally, that this worldwide orginization which seeks to display a form of Godliness is not in any way what it purports to be. There also may be some Catholics who read my post here that would think this is just another opportunity for a ''fundamentalist'' like me to proselytise another from their ranks and thus we both become their enemies. and this: But as the world goes so goes a church that is chocked full of religous man-made tradition instead of the attitude of a true and personal relationship with Jesus Christ, and putting Him first, gaining God's true knowledge and the application of such through the Holy Spirit and Him only, thus becoming a favored and a much loved son or daughter. Link to archived thread. Given the fact that you posted this in a DIFFERENT thread, and did not seem to be open-minded about what you read on catholic.com, nor what you have heard from Catholics on this board, your prior actions don't support what you're trying to say on this thread. Please correct me if I am wrong on this, but I agree with loonybin on the CARM issue. I spend enough time evangelizing at work, at home (in raising Catholic children), on catholic.com, here at arfcom and helping out on Theodoret's website - I don't feel the need, nor have the time, to deliberately enter the lion's den. |
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I will state again that the original intention of this particular thread is for anyone who is a member here to have the opportunity to post here anything concerning what they believe is false information about their own particular denomination here and explain why it is false,misleading or a down right lie. ***** I started this thread so it could be a safe haven so to speak that would allow for a non-combative enviroment, so that someone who makes claims such as yourself about websites like carm.org could make their case about subject matter posted on these other websites in order to empower those who may have never had this sort of opportunity to do so before and also educate the rest of us with some real information and real insight. I mean really, this bickering back and forth has no educational value in it whatsoever, among other things. It is wholly inmature and will not be a blessing to anyone. In my way of thinking understanding comes through constructive thinking. This is what I am trying to build here. Only one way, through education of an issue from all sides and with mutual respect for one another, will have any real and lasting purpose concerning or connected to anything we might discuss here no matter where it might lead, in my opinion. I am truly skeptical at your stated intention. The reason is that I recall a while back that you asked some questions, I believe the topic was about the Sacrament of Reconciliation (confession), but I'll have to do some more digging in the archives to find it. You were given answers and a link to catholic.com. Yet rather than engaging in an educational discussion, or with mutual respect, as you claim to want to do, you posted this in a different thread: I intentionally applied a little pressure on one of them to see what their response would be about ''Church'' doctrine..
In all honesty the response I recieved was about what I expected. Before I say this about my views concerning the Catholic church in general I will say this: There are certainly many wonderfull,loving and gracious people connected to that orginization and I truly mean this, clergy included. However the Catholic websites that I was furnished by one person, although full of scripture and verses pertaining to church rule,doctrine and policies for the most part indicate to me at least personally, that this worldwide orginization which seeks to display a form of Godliness is not in any way what it purports to be. There also may be some Catholics who read my post here that would think this is just another opportunity for a ''fundamentalist'' like me to proselytise another from their ranks and thus we both become their enemies. and this: But as the world goes so goes a church that is chocked full of religous man-made tradition instead of the attitude of a true and personal relationship with Jesus Christ, and putting Him first, gaining God's true knowledge and the application of such through the Holy Spirit and Him only, thus becoming a favored and a much loved son or daughter. Link to archived thread. Given the fact that you posted this in a DIFFERENT thread, and did not seem to be open-minded about what you read on catholic.com, nor what you have heard from Catholics on this board, your prior actions don't support what you're trying to say on this thread. Please correct me if I am wrong on this, but I agree with loonybin on the CARM issue. I spend enough time evangelizing at work, at home (in raising Catholic children), on catholic.com, here at arfcom and helping out on Theodoret's website - I don't feel the need, nor have the time, to deliberately enter the lion's den. Yes Cattitude, I stated those things because I that is my personal take about some of this. However, I'm OK with the things that I posted. In my mind at least there is nothing wrong with being honest about my veiws and opinions, is there? From a purely human standpoint I find some of this discreditation of other denominations by websites such as carm.org quite interesting indeed. As I have stated previously, I really don't wish to personally blow holes in other religions different than my own. Even if this were my goal here, do I really think that it would make a ton of difference and cause people to leave your faith or any other because of this thread? Of course not. Some have stated that they have tryed to get a fair shake concerning their veiws about their peticuar beliefs and that has not happened there. If you feel that you have something to say about your faith or how you feel about misrepresentations that are being spread around on another website, then state what it is. Good gosh, some of the people who post here regularly about thier peticular denominations and come under fire for various reasons, and then things get out of hand usually resort to name calling and all that goes along with that which in my opinion is rather counterproductive to say the least wouldn't you say also? I really don't think most people who fit into these catagories concerning religious beliefs in which some of these websites go after are by any means a bunch of religious fanatical idiots either, yourself included. But I will say this; when there is a clear dispute between parties here, sometimes when emotions are running a little high at least to me some posters appear when agitated to sound like such. I have had one post that I thought was kind of weird like that posted here just yesterday. If you don't care about what others may think about your religious ways and institutions then that's fine by me. At least if we all have disagreements over religion that doesn't mean that you and I have to be enemies over such or does it? The evangelical community in which I am a part of to the degree of lack of a better title seems to be the ones who are responsible for a lot of what has been refered to as,''hate websites''. In truth I also have some doubts about their real agendas as to their motivation in doing what they do. Just because I happen to disagree with some doctrine from other religious orginizations is not enough evidence at least in my mind to brand me a bigot or a hater just because my views and convictions don't happen to run parallel to yours does it? Thanks, SAE |
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I see all this as a poorly veiled attempt to incite a free-for-all, your protests notwithstanding.
You're not going to get anyone to rise to the bait. I provided you with a site (again, that is posted here on the Religion forum) that can provide the blow-by-blow rebuttals you claim to seek. You can read them there yourself at your own pace. If you're seeking "education", then there is plenty there to occupy you for weeks. It appears however, that you are simply seeking contention. Many people here have independently given their personal experience with CARM, Slick and his ilk. In spite of that, you still cliing to his site as the gold standard against which all religions he decides to libel must be judged. Go grind your axe somewhere else. This has become boring. |
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I see all this as a poorly veiled attempt to incite a free-for-all, your protests notwithstanding. You're not going to get anyone to rise to the bait. I provided you with a site (again, that is posted here on the Religion forum) that can provide the blow-by-blow rebuttals your claim to seek. You can read them there yourself at your own pace. If you're seeking "education", then there is plenty there to occupy you for weeks. It appears however, that you are simply seeking contention. Many people here have independently given their personal experience with CARM, Slick and his ilk. In spite of that, you still cliing to his site as the gold standard against which all religions he decides to libel must be judged. Go grind your axe somewhere else. This has become boring. If this thread has become boring for you and you honestly think that I'm grinding an axe here then I invite you not to post here again, which after hearing you out is probably just fine with you at this point, I'm almost certain. Sorry if you feel this way, but that isn't the way it is in here, or at least as far as I'm concerned anyway. Thanks, SAE |
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I and many people I know have posted on CARM's discussion board. Anyone LDS who disagrees with something that has been stated on CARM has been promptly banned. They are interested only in their version of the "truth" and will quash any attempt to offer a rebuttal. . Quoted:
Exposed by who? The LDS who are systematically banned from CARM for disagreeing with Mr. Slick? They generally have better things to do than engage in an obsessive vendetta with someone like Mr. Slick. This is simply untrue. I went to carm.org and tried to enter the forums. Unfortunately you have to join before you can even read the threads. I did that, and found a thread near the top of page one in the folder "Mormonism" on Isaiah 43:10. An LDS defender by the name of bert10 has been a member since 2006 and his first post in the thread showed his post count to be 11,588. ETA: I am contemplating making my first post at carm. In the Mormonism folder I am thinking about starting a new thread "LDS members lie about carm.org" and then stating that in other web communities LDS members make the claim that LDS members are banned from carm when they defend LDS doctrines. It took less than five minutes of my time to check out these claims against carm and to find them entirely false. |
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Is there anyone out there that has made a comment about carm recently on this thread or share the same views as those posters that have already weighed in about the prejudices that carm.org has against anyone who goes against it's grain by being promptly banned have anything to say in response to Criley's last post?
Thanks, SAE |
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I and many people I know have posted on CARM's discussion board. Anyone LDS who disagrees with something that has been stated on CARM has been promptly banned. They are interested only in their version of the "truth" and will quash any attempt to offer a rebuttal. . Quoted:
Exposed by who? The LDS who are systematically banned from CARM for disagreeing with Mr. Slick? They generally have better things to do than engage in an obsessive vendetta with someone like Mr. Slick. This is simply untrue. I went to carm.org and tried to enter the forums. Unfortunately you have to join before you can even read the threads. I did that, and found a thread near the top of page one in the folder "Mormonism" on Isaiah 43:10. An LDS defender by the name of bert10 has been a member since 2006 and his first post in the thread showed his post count to be 11,588. ETA: I am contemplating making my first post at carm. In the Mormonism folder I am thinking about starting a new thread "LDS members lie about carm.org" and then stating that in other web communities LDS members make the claim that LDS members are banned from carm when they defend LDS doctrines. It took less than five minutes of my time to check out these claims against carm and to find them entirely false. It won't take me five minutes to see that what I call an "LDS defender" and what you call an "LDS defender" are two completely different things. You, for instance, have claimed on other ARFCOM threads that you provide "accurate" information regarding LDS doctrine.... Yeah right!!! The truth is, I visited that website, and found several misleading, false, and outright wrong things representing LDS church beliefs, with zero input from anyone with positive views of the church... That is enough for me. And... Your five minutes of in-depth (we are all sure) "research" may have overlooked true defenders of the LDS faith. Ones that call out lies and misrepresentations, and such... Who have been banned from that site for providing nothing more than *accurate* information. I will take the above fellows at their word. Having spent (a little more than five minutes) researching that site, I found several undefended ourtight lies pertaining to LDS beliefs. That is enough for me to see that it is simply an anti-Mormon, and/ or Mormon-hater website. That being said, having read your posts and your outright misrepresentations of LDS beliefs on ARFCOM, I bet you would love it... Plenty of undefended and cheap-shot fodder there for the Mormon-haters and bigots... |
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Quoted: Is there anyone out there that has made a comment about carm recently on this thread or share the same views as those posters that have already weighed in about the prejudices that carm.org has against anyone who goes against it's grain by being promptly banned have anything to say in response to Criley's last post? Thanks, SAE I'd have to research that posters history to see if he's ever disagreed with what CARM has posted about Mormonism. I started to do that then realized CARM places Mormonism under the cults heading and decided that was more than offensive enough for me. I'd be surprised if any actual Mormon goes there. |
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Sadly, there are people on this forum who would fit right in with CARM. Nail<––––––Head Thanks for your posts Loonybin, and Cattitude. Juni4ling, Would you be so kind as to clarify what it is that you mean by that statement please? Thanks, SAE From criley (only a couple posts above this one): "I am contemplating making my first post at carm..." Mr. Obvious is obvious. criley is not the only anti-Mormon "Christian" who would fit in well in a website where Mormons (and Catholics and others, obviously) cannot defend themselves against baseless and false accusations about our beliefs. Mr. Obvious is obvious. You can keep the drum beat up for your anti-Mormon "Christian," (and, aparently, anti-Catholic and others) website, but it seems to me that the verdict is in. Mr. Obvious is always pretty dang obvious. |
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Is there anyone out there that has made a comment about carm recently on this thread or share the same views as those posters that have already weighed in about the prejudices that carm.org has against anyone who goes against it's grain by being promptly banned have anything to say in response to Criley's last post? Thanks, SAE I'd have to research that posters history to see if he's ever disagreed with what CARM has posted about Mormonism. I started to do that then realized CARM places Mormonism under the cults heading and decided that was more than offensive enough for me. I'd be surprised if any actual Mormon goes there. Now DIno...when I've brought up the Christian web-sight AIG in the past I seem to recall your words weren't quite as kind. Dont worry, I'm not offended, I'm a big boy. The problem is you guys are checking out web-sights other the ar15.com for chatting. For crying out loud this is the only place you can chat about religion then click over and get tips on ammo deals...ar15.com is the best! I wish I could marry ar15.com! If you're on ANY sight other then ar15.com there is a good chance that your being sucked into a flamming (word that starts with a "C" and ends with "ult") Ar15.com is the best most awsome sight! and Aim surplus is a great vender! (hardshell, take notes, this has got to be worth some brownie points for the next time I misbehave) In all seriousness I don’t get this whole “The anti-Mormon” concept. Anyone who knows anything about the topic understands that Christians and Mormons have stark differences. I’m anti-Mormon teachings…not because “I hate Mormons” but because the Jesus of my Bible has little in common with the “Jesus” taught by Joseph Smith. Mormons are great people and great citizens and I have no desire to tar and feather them while burning down their homes. I’m even sure I would get along with the Mormons on this sight far more readily then many of the Christians. My point is that adamantly disagreeing with someone doesn’t make you anti-that person. If people wish to surround themselves with eggshells the conversations engaged in will not just be boring but dishonest to both parties. Two men can strongly disagree while still treating each other with respect…its not that hard. |
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You, for instance, have claimed on other ARFCOM threads that you provide "accurate" information regarding LDS doctrine.... Yeah right!!! ..... That being said, having read your posts and your outright misrepresentations of LDS beliefs on ARFCOM, I bet you would love it... Plenty of undefended and cheap-shot fodder there for the Mormon-haters and bigots... I misrepresented NOTHING. What you claim to be my misrepresentations are in red. Underneath them are the words of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and Bruce McConkie. I was 100% accurate in stating Mormon doctrines according to THESE LDS LEADERS. No. 1 When a religion claims that it has innumerable gods.... one hundred? one thousand? one million? one billion? more?..... that is not a "Christian" belief. A Discourse by President Joseph Smith, Delivered at the Conference held near the Temple, in Nauvoo, April 6, 1844 and now contained in the Journal of Discourses Vol 6 Pg1-11. "In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it. When we begin to learn in this way, we begin to learn the only true God and what kind of a being we have got to worship. Having a knowledge of God, we begin to know how to approach him and how to ask so as to receive an answer." Do Mormons doctrine teach that there is more than one god? Of course they do. And of course, this fact is raised later in Smith’s discourse, as we will see. In fact, we will see that the number of gods is always increasing, because yesterday’s men are todays gods. Today's men become tomorrow's gods. Therefore, there could be billions of gods throughout the universe. No. 2 When a religion claims that its gods were once mere men, who achieved godhood..... that is not a "Christian" belief. From the same source previously cited: "I will go back to the beginning, before the world was, to show what kind of a being God is. What sort of a being was God in the beginning? Open your ears and hear, all ye ends of the earth; for I am going to prove it to you by the Bible, and to tell you the designs of God in relation to the human race, and why he interferes with the affairs of man. God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret. If the veil was rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who [p. 3b] upholds all worlds and all things by his power, was to make himself visible—I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form—like yourselves, in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image, and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked, and conversed with him, as one man talks and communes with another." No.3 When a religion claims that its followers can also achieve godhood through its religious ritual.... that is not a "Christian" belief. Again, from the same source: "Here, then, is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you—namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one—from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. And I want you to know that God, in the last days, while certain individuals are proclaiming his name, is not trifling with you or me." How does an LDS have a chance at reaching exaltation and becoming a god? He must follow the teachings and perform the church's rituals. If he has done a good enough job, he may receive a temple recommend (be allowed entrance into the temple) and finally he must be married in the temple. In other words, he has to perform religious ritual. And lest it be claimed I am misrepresenting THAT.... one may cut and paste the following websites (official LDS) into their browser: http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=346e88a85f2fb010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=024644f8f206c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=c487a0ad4843d110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=f318118dd536c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD No.4 When a religion claims that Satan is the brother of the Lord Jesus Christ... that is not a "Christian" belief. From the Discourses of Brigham Young, on Pg.53-54: "Who will redeem the earth, who will go forth and make the sacrifice for the earth and all things it contains?" The Eldest Son said: "Here am I"; and then he added, "Send me." But the second one, which was "Lucifer, Son of the Morning," said, "Lord, here am I, send me, I will redeem every son and daughter of Adam and Eve that lives on the earth, or that ever goes on the earth." Now in case some would say that is not clear enough.... Bruce R. McConkie, The Mortal Messiah, Vol.1, Pg.407-408 "Hence, there is –– and must be –– a devil, and he is the father of lies and of wickedness. He and the fallen angels who followed him are spirit children of the Father. As Christ is the Firstborn of the Father in the spirit, so Lucifer is a son of the morning, one of those born in the morning of preexistence. He is a spirit man, a personage, an entity, comparable in form and appearance to any of the spirit children of the Eternal Father. " Most readers probably recognize Smith and Young. Some might not know who McConkie is.... he was an Apostle of the LDS religion, an authoritative leader, and was a recognized teacher of Mormon doctrines. In summary, I made four statements regarding Mormon doctrine. Regardless of what an anonymous internet apologist claims here on arfcom, the statements I made match the words of LDS leaders. |
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Quoted: Now DIno...when I've brought up the Christian web-sight AIG in the past I seem to recall your words weren't quite as kind. Dont worry, I'm not offended, I'm a big boy. What are you talking about? I think AIG is one of the best apologetic sites on the net. http://www.answersingenesis.org/get-answers/topic/arguments-we-dont-use <––- this is my favorite link for addressing 90% of the idiocy I see on this forum. I wouldn't go to AIG for answers on science, but they do know enough science to recognize that some arguments are so ludicrous that they lend credence to the idea that fundamentalist Christians are uneducated hayseeds. Its possible I spoke negatively of Ken Ham in regards to his scientific credentials, but I have zero problem with his religious views. He's head and shoulders above hucksters like "Dr" Kent Hovind. In fact, many of the arguments in his "arguments we don't use" page were commonly used by Kent Hovind. Any source needs to be checked. I've used CARM as a reference when discussing mainstream Protestant views. I wouldn't use them as a source for much else, because it is a VERY biased site. I certainly wouldn't trust anything they have to say about Mormonism when they label it a cult. In all seriousness I don’t get this whole “The anti-Mormon” concept. Anyone who knows anything about the topic understands that Christians and Mormons have stark differences. I’m anti-Mormon teachings…not because “I hate Mormons” but because the Jesus of my Bible has little in common with the “Jesus” taught by Joseph Smith. Mormons are great people and great citizens and I have no desire to tar and feather them while burning down their homes. I’m even sure I would get along with the Mormons on this sight far more readily then many of the Christians. My point is that adamantly disagreeing with someone doesn’t make you anti-that person. If people wish to surround themselves with eggshells the conversations engaged in will not just be boring but dishonest to both parties. Two men can strongly disagree while still treating each other with respect…its not that hard. You may not be anti-Mormon, but many on this site are. Just are there are people who are anti-Mason and anti-Catholic. They continually post threads like the one that was recently locked to try and get a rise out of our LDS brothers and sisters. |
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hmmm...maybe ive got you mixed up with hoody again.
I'm sorry about that...seriously. IM me your address and Ill ship you a fresh box of 5.56! My point being that there are some on here that deride and bludgeon Christian beliefs in a blatant way but I dont get this feeling that this sight is any more anti-Christain then it is anti-Mormon or Catholic. Maybe it’s just me but I start to equate the whole “anti” stuff to the same PC mantra that tells us to all hold hands and sing. I do see your point in that some guys take disagreement on a topic to a personal level. I just think that holds to guys across the board and not just one group. |
| Its not about all of us agreeing. Of course I don't agree with LDS - otherwise I would be LDS. The problem is Christian charity or the lack thereof. From what I have heard, there is lack of charity toward Catholics (and LDS, I'm sure) on that site and the so-called "moderators" will step in and "pile it on". |
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Sadly, there are people on this forum who would fit right in with CARM. Nail<––––––Head Thanks for your posts Loonybin, and Cattitude. You beat me to it, juni4ling. That's what I get for having to log off to cook dinner and take my daughter to chior practice. |
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Its not about all of us agreeing. Of course I don't agree with LDS - otherwise I would be LDS. The problem is Christian charity or the lack thereof. From what I have heard, there is lack of charity toward Catholics (and LDS, I'm sure) on that site and the so-called "moderators" will step in and "pile it on". Oh really? If I stated that Catholic beliefs include transubstantiation and the immaculate conception, and you called me a liar in doing so, who is showing a "lack of Christian charity"? If I cited some website that does not believe as Catholics do, and has open forums for discussion, and you lied about them and said that they ban those who disagree with them when they don't.... just who is showing a "lack of Christian charity"? |
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Criley, are Catholics Christians? Was Thomas Jefferson a Christian? just curious I’ll give you thoughts on that question if you don’t mind. The problem isn’t just a Mormon and Catholic problem…it’s a Hindu and Muslim problem and yes even a Protestant/Evangelical problem. When you have a copy of the Bible and you can freely read it but then chose to add too or subtract from its basic tenants you might be able to claim a form of christianity in its religious sense…But the Jesus Christ of the bible makes something else quite clear. Salvation cannot be by mans merit..it cannot be an earned gift. Salvation is by Gods grace alone through faith alone and not of ourselves! Setting aside any Specific Religions concepts of who God and who Jesus Christ are…. if their concepts of Grace are based on merit …at the end of the day if your faith in Jesus Christ is based on you being a good enough person… you simply do not have a relationship with Him. Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean [thing], and all our righteousnesses [are] as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. If you open the Bible and read of Jesus Christ then close it and say “I kind of like this Jesus ….so I’m going to become a better person in order to earn a relationship with Him”…He will not accept it! All religions of the world seek to build a bridge to God based on good works. Men seek to reach their Creator on a bridge of their own construction. Some might say “oh, but my good deeds meet Gods grace and that is where I find salvation” You cannot find that in the Bible and Jesus never tells sinners He encounters to clean up their live and then check back! Good works before Gods Grace mean nothing to God. Saying that you claim salvation in Jesus Christ atonement…because you cleaned yourself up and then approached the cross as a good person only means you know who Jesus is but you reject His message….You want salvation but on your terms. Rom 9 31-33 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed." Jesus offends because His message is “ You cant earn righteousness!” The Bible makes it clear…When facing Gods Judgment It will be better for those pagans who have never heard the name of Jesus then those who heard Him, read His message, but then changed and modified it to fit their pride. And don’t misunderstand! When the sinner clams salvation is a mixture of their works and Jesus Christ’s Blood….the Bible tells us on that day Jesus will say “depart from me you that work iniquity for I never knew you!” This isn’t just a Mormon and Catholic problem, some of the largest “Evangelical” Churches in America today are preaching a false gospel. Men and women fill the pews of thousands of Churches every Sunday sit there and say “I like this Jesus …but I like Him on my terms.” Ill change a few outward things about my life to encounter Him".... but their hearts are untouched by the Cross. If men don’t grasp the concept for the need of The Cross of Jesus Christ it is no wonder they never understand who God is. If men look at their lives and say “man, I’m such a good person!” Sure Satan will appear as an Angel of light in a field or a cave!…a false shiny Christ…a Guru… a good teacher…and in the end The Anti-Christ of Revelation. If men are content with living a lie Satan will make them feel as comfortable as he possible can. He will deceive and lie…help you write fancy holy books and speak fancy sermons…he will rock that cradle of pride straight to eternal damnation and separation from God. This is what the Bible tells about such men. 2 Pet 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. There will men who literally are found “Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away…Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. (2Tim3) Jesus message is this “My Grace is Sufficient” the only merit you need is found in placing your trust in Me! I wasn’t nailed to the cross because you could only make it half way…I was nailed to the cross because you couldn’t even take the first step in the right way! The good things you do can’t cover your sins….Outside of Me your good deeds are like filthy rags! Pride is why Satan was cast from Heaven, pride is why men reject their Creator, pride is why religious people reject the message of the Cross! The Christ of the Cross tells us, if you can not cast aside the very pride that tells you that your merit/good deeds are worth Me…I will turn my face from you. Men will stand before Jesus and say “Oh Jesus here I am! Your child! I did good stuff in your name! I knew you!.......But Jesus will say depart from me…for I never knew you! That moment I believe will be the most tragic in all History. Good people will be cast into outer darkness because they looked at themselves as being “good enough” to reach their Creator….they turned from the Cross because they rejected its message. The Prostitutes and Murders the vilest sinners who can only plead “Father, be merciful to me a sinner! Lord, remember me! Jesus thou Son of David have Mercy!” “Nothing in my hands I bring, simply to Thy Cross I cling!”….to them He will say, Today, you will be with me in paradise! Enter into the joy of the Lord…the place prepared for those redeemed by the Blood of the Lamb…the Lamb who was slain before the foundations of the World.(rev13:8) The Bible tells us of a rich young man who thought his good deed justified him. He came to Jesus and said…What must I do to follow you Lord? I’ve keep your commandment since I was a boy! I follow my Churches punch list of good works…here I am, ready to walk with you, what else must I do! What can “I” do? Jesus answers…”Sell all you have and follow me”….It’s not about doing good things…its about giving everything up that you have earned and built on your own, all the corners of pride must be scraped out and gotten rid of …then follow Me....place your trust in Me! The Bible tells us that man sadly walked away. Jesus had taken his concept of salvation and exposed it for the pride it was. Jesus Words…Gods Word…The Bible cuts through men’s hearts like a two edged sword…it divides …its politically incorrect its uncomfortable…but it is the Good news... the Gospel that saves souls! It breaks my heart but if you go to one of the above mentioned Religions websites and type in the word “Grace” this is what you will find. Grace “It is through the grace of the Lord Jesus, made possible by his atoning sacrifice, that mankind will be raised in immortality, every person receiving his body from the grave in a condition of everlasting life. It is likewise through the grace of the Lord that individuals, through faith in the atonement of Jesus Christ and repentance of their sins, receive strength and assistance to do good works that they otherwise would not be able to maintain if left to their own means. This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts.” What a sugar coated false truth! This isn’t just the message of this religion….it’s the message of every religion built by men. It’s taught by many Priests and Pastors of every persuasion. How sad…How it breaks the heart of God to see men so close…Men like Nicodemas and that rich young ruler…men who fill churches on Sunday or Saturday who bow toward Mecca…who crawl to holy sights…men who believe that last sentence is what they must do to reach God. Men load themselves down with a burden of religion, they spend their lives dragging a weight, trying to be good enough…trying to expend their best efforts. In the end that very weight is what keeps them from their Creator. I can’t prove it but I believed that Nicodemus and that Rich young man did find Christ. When they heard the message and then witnessed that slain Lamb…His message could not be ignored. Perhaps then they understood that Salvation wasn’t about what they could offer Christ…but what Christ offered them! This is what Jesus is crying out! This is His message to a dying world! This is the message to those trapped in religion, bound in bondage of sin! Mat 11:28-30 Come unto me, all [ye] that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke [is] easy, and my burden is light. John5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Religion offers men a temporal peace that gives them the allusion of comfort. The Cross of Christ offers men an everlasting peace for their souls. One is temporal and false…one is lasting and true. The Creator men seek to be reconciled with can only be seen through Christ and Christ’s message is the Message of the Cross. Men can dissect it, modify it, adjust it, and tinker with it….but it stands as Truth....”Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” John 14:6 "Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Eph 5:6 And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.Col 2:4 “And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. Rev 21:5 Faithful means dependable!…Jesus says, you can count these words being true...because I will keep them by my power! For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book. Rev 22 18-19 Again, Jesus tells us, My words are true! I am The way, The truth, The life, Only through Me can you know God…through Me you can find Everlasting Life…true peace….rest for your soul. If you reject my words...you might know of me...but I dont know you. |
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Quoted: My point being that there are some on here that deride and bludgeon Christian beliefs in a blatant way but I dont get this feeling that this sight is any more anti-Christain then it is anti-Mormon or Catholic. Maybe it’s just me but I start to equate the whole “anti” stuff to the same PC mantra that tells us to all hold hands and sing. I do see your point in that some guys take disagreement on a topic to a personal level. I just think that holds to guys across the board and not just one group. There are bad apples in every group, I definitely agree with that. Understood on the "anti" thing, but I'm not sure what else to call it? |
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T1NMAN, I read your reply and I believe I understand. I am unclear how you would view Catholics, but I'm pretty sure you don't think TJ was a Christian. He didn't believe in the virgin birth or the physical resurrection of Jesus or in the infallibility of the Bible. If that is the case, I could see why you would say that TJ was not a Christian. The sense in which Thomas Jefferson considered himself a Christian was as a sincere admirer of the doctrines of Jesus Christ. Of course by that measure, I'm a Christian and I'm no such thing Most people have less clear cut lines. I view anyone who 1) claims to accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior 2) appears to be living up to it (by their fruits...) to be a Christian. Mormons fit there, but Thomas Jefferson would not. Each sect of Christianity thinks it has the one true way, but most are willing to admit that some false beliefs about Jesus don't bar you from the kingdom. I guess the question is are the beliefs you and others find heretical enough to nullify the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ. from what I learned in my 20 years as a Christian, I don't see how that is possible. Mormons (and Catholics and Unitarian Christians) may be in error, but they still all accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior. Is there some other requirement for salvation my Church failed to inform me of? |
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Criley, are Catholics Christians? Was Thomas Jefferson a Christian? just curious I see you already discussed Jefferson, so no need to go there. As far as your other question..... I think it is somewhat telling the way you had to phrase it...... Are Catholics Christians? The very fact that there are these "sects" as you mentioned is telling..... They do not exist in the scriptures. The reason that they do exist is because all of them have changed the very nature of Jesus Christ and who he is, or how he does, or does not "save" individuals. Also, if you read my posts carefully, you will find me discussing DOCTRINES and not individuals. Is Catholic doctrine Biblical? Not to one who subscribes to the belief that the scriptures are the final authority. All the "isms" out there have extra-biblical authorities, whether they are catechisms, institutes, the Book of Abraham, books by Ellen White, etc. Some have individuals who claim to speak for God ... seers, prophets, apostles, revealators There is a reason for that. In another post you mention: I view anyone who
1) claims to accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior 2) appears to be living up to it (by their fruits...) to be a Christian. The fact is, that the "Jesuses" are not the same. Some are more similar to the real Lord Jesus Christ.... some are far, far different. Counterfeit Jesuses are no more valuable than counterfeit $20s. And they cannot save souls. |
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Quoted: And they cannot save souls. this is where I disagree philisophically with you. I was raised Church of Christ and reading the same Bible as you, there are no doctrinal requirements that I have seen. The only requirement is belief in the saving sacrifice of Jesus Christ (if they teach something different now, please let me know) Jesus's sacrifice can save sinners, whatever the sin is. If the sin is an error in belief about Jesus, his sacrifice would wash it away as well. If the gift of salvation is truly free, then it has no requirements other than belief. |
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A Discourse by President Joseph Smith, Delivered at the Conference held near the Temple, in Nauvoo, April 6, 1844 and now contained in the Journal of Discourses Vol 6 Pg1-11. Why do you quote things as "Mormon Doctrine" or "What Mormons believe" And not use LDS scriptures? None of those things you listed are *actually* Mormon doctrine. It has been pointed out to your earlier, for instance, that Mormons do not believe in multiple Gods. We believe in (one) God, our Heavenly Father, His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost. The "Journal of Discourses" is not considered a doctrinal source for LDS teachings. It is not published by the LDS church, and at no point in LDS Church history, has it ever been considered a source for LDS teachings. I have never heard it quoted in LDS teachings. Now, criley, I encourage you to quote Mormon doctrine from accepted LDS sources. You cannot do it. You know you can't and I know you can't. You can't find anything in LDS scripture (the Journal of Discourses is not scripture) that backs up your false and erroneous claims of what Mormons believe. If you claim that Mormons believe something, then provide the LDS scriptural source for your stated belief. You know you don't have the integrity to quote *real* LDS beliefs, I know you don't have the integrity to quote *real* LDS beliefs. I think everyone who has come across your threads knows you have real hate problems with the LDS church. Get us some sources from LDS scripture, and we can have a real discussion... And, to be clear, the "Journal of Discourses," and the other sources provided by criley are NOT considered, and have never been considered a source for LDS doctrine. They are not published by the church, and are not part of LDS church intellectual property, meaning that the LDS church owns the copyright to them. That copyright is important because it means that *changes* can be made to the content without LDS Church permission.. That means they are excellent undefended fodder for Mormon-haters, and bigots, but they are not to be considered a source of Mormon Doctrine. Again, criley, get us some LDS scriptural references... You know you don't have them, and I do to... You Mormon-haters really thrive on contention, don't you...??? |
