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Posted: 8/15/2005 6:50:56 AM EDT
them. have you been born again?
me. i don't accept that phrase.
them. well what does being a "Christian" mean to you?
me. it means i believe Jesus sacrificed himself to remit all sin.
them. well then, you were born again.
me. i choose to be a Christian every day. i have chosen to be a christen since childhood. if someone ceases to call themselves Christian you don't say they were reborn into sin?
them. well no.
me. well then i am not born again. look, i know what the bible says. but the bible also says Jesus was a tree and a rock but he was not. he was true man and also true God. i just don't like the phrase because it makes me seen special and i am no more special than any other sinner.

them. well have you accepted Jesus as you personal Lord and Savor?
me. i don't accept that phrase either.
them. well how do you refer to yourself?
me. i accept Jesus as everyone's Lord and Savor.
them. now your just arguing semantics with me.
me. maybe but it's a valid point because it gives glory to God and does not make me feel special.


maybe i am wrong but it seems a lot of Christians have an air of superiority and want everyone to feel as though they are better than you because of X.



Link Posted: 8/15/2005 6:56:37 AM EDT
<Snatches can opener away from hk940>
Are you crazy, man????
<looks at worms scattering all over the floor>

Link Posted: 8/15/2005 6:57:39 AM EDT
"They" are right. It's a quibbing, semantic point. There are far more important things to get your dander up about.

Or perhaps you believe that this is an issue of such magnitude that it's worth being devisive over?

Link Posted: 8/15/2005 6:57:45 AM EDT
I dont' have to be born again, I got it right the first time.....
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 7:02:51 AM EDT
The 'born again' thing annoys me, but I figured it's just one of those religious things that rational people are not expected to understand.

Link Posted: 8/15/2005 7:04:21 AM EDT
The whole "born again" phrase IS based in solid theology, as Christ said that we must be born again by The Spirit and by water. (Speaking of the moment of first true repentence and Baptism) but misapplication of that phrase has caused me to dislike hearing it. Whenever I hear someone say they are "born again" I cringe.

Link Posted: 8/15/2005 7:05:05 AM EDT
i just don't like folks trying to assign titles to me that i didn't earn.

Link Posted: 8/15/2005 7:06:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Justa_TXguy:
The 'born again' thing annoys me, but I figured it's just one of those religious things that rational people are not expected to understand.




Yup! Us religious people shur iz irrashional!! Heck! Weez caint even spel fur nuthin!

I shore wish I 'uz a rashional peeples like you-uns are!


If you find religion to be the death of reason, then why on earth are you in this forum in the first place? And while here, can't you at least refrain from saying such silly things?
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 7:10:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
If you find religion to be the death of reason, then why on earth are you in this forum in the first place? Religion interests me.And while here, can't you at least refrain from saying such silly things? I apologize if I offended you, but I stand by what I said. There are many religous things that make no sense to a rational person, and I assumed this was of of them. I do see how it could be considered inflammatory.



Link Posted: 8/15/2005 7:12:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Justa_TXguy:

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
If you find religion to be the death of reason, then why on earth are you in this forum in the first place? Religion interests me.And while here, can't you at least refrain from saying such silly things? I apologize if I offended you, but I stand by what I said. There are many religous things that make no sense to a rational person, and I assumed this was of of them. I do see how it could be considered inflammatory.






If I referred to the non-religious as being depraved, would you get offended?

I have no problem with people coming here to learn. And of all people on earth, nobody better understands the conflicts between faith and reason more than I do.

But in the name of all that is decent, that does NOT make faith or those who have it IRRATIONAL.

Link Posted: 8/15/2005 7:16:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Justa_TXguy:
There are many religous things that make no sense to a rational person, and I assumed this was of of them. I do see how it could be considered inflammatory.



Well, you've successfully stated that if one is a religious person then they are by default irrational.

I would say that is pretty inflammatory. It would be the same thing as someone calling you irrational for NOT having a religion.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 8:09:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By hk940:
them. have you been born again?
me. i don't accept that phrase.
them. well what does being a "Christian" mean to you?
me. it means i believe Jesus sacrificed himself to remit all sin.
them. well then, you were born again.
me. i choose to be a Christian every day. i have chosen to be a christen since childhood. if someone ceases to call themselves Christian you don't say they were reborn into sin?
them. well no.
me. well then i am not born again. look, i know what the bible says. but the bible also says Jesus was a tree and a rock but he was not. he was true man and also true God. i just don't like the phrase because it makes me seen special and i am no more special than any other sinner.

them. well have you accepted Jesus as you personal Lord and Savor?
me. i don't accept that phrase either.
them. well how do you refer to yourself?
me. i accept Jesus as everyone's Lord and Savor.
them. now your just arguing semantics with me.
me. maybe but it's a valid point because it gives glory to God and does not make me feel special.


maybe i am wrong but it seems a lot of Christians have an air of superiority and want everyone to feel as though they are better than you because of X.






I agree with John_Wayne777 on this. It is based on solid theology, bu it has been mis-applied. Just like "Washed in the blood", and a host of other phrases.

As for Lord and Savior, yes, Christ is Lord of all, and one day all will confess it. But He cannot be Savior to all, unless you're unitarian, which I'm not.

As far as born again, Christians need not have a sense of superiority about it. They had nothing to do with it any more than they had to do with their physical birth. Nothing to be prideful about.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 8:22:14 AM EDT
I understand why people use it, but in my opinion all of one's life is a journey towards God, or at least it should be.

Sgat1r5
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 8:27:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/15/2005 8:35:46 AM EDT by WildBoar]

Originally Posted By TexasSIG:
I dont' have to be born again, I got it right the first time.....



Why would Jesus say you "Must be born again"? Do you feel exempt from that?

(John 3:4 NKJV) Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"

(John 3:5 NKJV) Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

(John 3:6 NKJV) "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

(John 3:7 NKJV) "Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'

(John 3:8 NKJV) "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 8:32:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/15/2005 8:33:39 AM EDT by WildBoar]

Originally Posted By Greenfeet:


As far as born again, Christians need not have a sense of superiority about it. They had nothing to do with it any more than they had to do with their physical birth. Nothing to be prideful about.



Exactly. One has nothing to boast about just like they cant boast about their physical birth. Unfortunately most mainstream christianity preaches a humanistic christianity where it tell them they deserved their salvation. The wide road surely leads to destruction.


"But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (John chapter 1, verse 12-13). .

1. It is not of blood. You are not a Christian just because your parents may be. You do not inherit salvation from your parents. Even though your folks may be saved, if you have not been born again, you are lost.

2. Nor of the will of the flesh. It is not by your own efforts and will power. You will fail. So why not stop trying to work your way to heaven? Instead of trying, trust, receive, depend upon the One who died and rose again.

3. Nor of the will of man. It is not brought about by any of man's religious creeds, systems, or ceremonies. No man or organization can do anything to you or for you that will make you a child of God. Join what you will, go through ceremony after ceremony, memorize creeds, and try to keep the rules and regulations of man-made systems, but it will not save you.

4. But of God. The Lord Jesus said you must be born "of the SPIRIT." It is 100% God's work, not yours. It is a miracle. Only God can perform it. If God has not done a work in your life, you are not born again. Your part is to believe God's record about you: You must believe that you are a lost, worthless sinner, and in desperate need of a Savior. You must repent of your sins and receive the Lord Jesus Christ as both Lord and Saviour. He died on Calvary's cross, satisfying the righteousness and justice of God, that He might take your sins and punishment upon Himself. He arose and is seated today as God's Man at the right hand of the Majesty on high (see Hebrews 1:3), and He is offered to you as God's only way of salvation (see John 14:6). When you receive HIM, you will be saved, for Paul says we are "... children of God by faith in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:26).

You do not receive Christ by taking communion, or by being baptized, or by joining a church, or by any other human effort. You receive Christ by faith and trust alone in His finished work on the cross.

Ye MUST be born again!
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 8:37:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/15/2005 8:40:04 AM EDT by TexasSIG]

Originally Posted By WildBoar:

Originally Posted By TexasSIG:
I dont' have to be born again, I got it right the first time.....



Why would Jesus say you "Must be born again"? Do you feel exempt from that?





I dislike the term "Born Again" the way it is currently used. Being born into Christ
through Baptism is what matters, how you say it is just marketing.

I went to a function at another church recently and I was asked if I was "born again".

I said that I was baptized and Christ was my Savior. I was then told that was not what
"born again" meant.
So, I laughed and said no thanks, I didn't need to be born again if that was the case.

It's the marketing cry for a certain group of Christians at this point, with VERY many
of them not having the slightest idea of what it really means.

According to this particular church, you are "born again" when you run down the aisle
on Sunday morning and cry in front of the congregation , then they all cheer for you.
Then you go have cookies and lunch.


Link Posted: 8/15/2005 8:57:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TexasSIG:

Originally Posted By WildBoar:

Originally Posted By TexasSIG:
I dont' have to be born again, I got it right the first time.....



Why would Jesus say you "Must be born again"? Do you feel exempt from that?





I dislike the term "Born Again" the way it is currently used. Being born into Christ
through Baptism is what matters, how you say it is just marketing.

I went to a function at another church recently and I was asked if I was "born again".

I said that I was baptized and Christ was my Savior. I was then told that was not what
"born again" meant.
So, I laughed and said no thanks, I didn't need to be born again if that was the case.

It's the marketing cry for a certain group of Christians at this point, with VERY many
of them not having the slightest idea of what it really means.

According to this particular church, you are "born again" when you run down the aisle
on Sunday morning and cry in front of the congregation , then they all cheer for you.
Then you go have cookies and lunch.





Ok I understand. I know exactly what type of church you are talkuing about. Its one of those that water down the gospel t make it more palatable and dodge the tough questions. An altar call is the only way to get saved according to them.

In that case I understand your view. They are but another wide road chuch that teaches a works based salvation and teaches that if one is saved, it is because they deserved it and man gets all the glory. I no longer attend churches like that myself.


It just that whan you said you got it right the firt tie confused me. Its a response I hear from non beleivers all the time and folks like Nicodemus that Jesus had to correct.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 3:03:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By WildBoar:


It just that whan you said you got it right the firt tie confused me. Its a response I hear from non beleivers all the time and folks like Nicodemus that Jesus had to correct.



No,. I was just trying to be funny, but as usual, it didn't work.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 4:01:18 PM EDT
You must be "born again", there is NO OTHER WAY to salvation.

Period.

Ro:6:3: Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Ro:6:4: Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Ro:6:5: For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:


Buried with Christ in the waters of baptism, rising up into a new Life. Born again.

Simple doctrine, written for simple people. Unless you are TxSig, then it needs a degree to explain and promulgate. Makes it mo' better.

Dram out
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 5:54:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dramborleg:

Simple doctrine, written for simple people.
Dram out



That's probably good, otherwise you wouldn't have a clue what it said.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 6:24:50 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 6:32:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By VA-gunnut:

Originally Posted By TexasSIG:

Originally Posted By Dramborleg:

Simple doctrine, written for simple people.
Dram out



That's probably good, otherwise you wouldn't have a clue what it said.




I think the two of you need to just ignore eachother from now on.





No Disrespect VA...but you're gonna need to keep that phrase on the clipboard and post it every third or fourth thread, I'm guessing....
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 6:54:30 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 6:27:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MRW:
Well, take it up with Jesus, cause it's his term. John 3:3.

Actually, the greek word translated "again" should be better tranlsated "from above"

You must be born from above
.



Crap! I gotta be an Airborne Ranger now?????????????
<calls the Screamin' Eagles>
Do I have to jump outta planes to go to heaven?
I gotta do it without a chute, you say?


Guess I know where I'm spending eternity....



Link Posted: 8/16/2005 7:49:25 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 8:35:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By VA-gunnut:



OK young lady, time to stop poking at the boys.



<looks sufficiently chastised and scuttles off to confession>

Link Posted: 8/16/2005 11:45:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MRW:
Well, take it up with Jesus, cause it's his term. John 3:3.

Actually, the greek word translated "again" should be better tranlsated "from above"

You must be born from above.




You can't do that to some of these folks. The Bible was written in good old Southern English
'cause Jesus was a white boy from Alabama ya know.....

Any discussion of Biblical translations or reading outside of the latest modern language
Bible gets you branded as a trouble maker. Historical perspective doesn't mean anything.

You are not allowed to add historical background to Scripture, some will claim
that's "devils work".

Even though, you are 100% correct.

Link Posted: 8/16/2005 2:02:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By MRW:
Well, take it up with Jesus, cause it's his term. John 3:3.

Actually, the greek word translated "again" should be better tranlsated "from above"

You must be born from above.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Correct it can also mean from the begining,from the top,by implication anew. (strongs greek and hebrew dictionary)

If you dont have it I would suggest every bible reader to download esword program its free and you can mouse over words and get the original greek and hebrew def. of every word in the dictionary.

I would say the words are different but the meanings are the same.

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

in this case I would say being born again would mean being born anew and would mean as the translation is pointing.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 2:51:04 PM EDT
Read John Chapter 3 and I Corr. Chapter 15 then forget what you've been told in church and go with what the bible says. Being "born again" has to do with the reserection and getting that new "spirt" body that I Corr. 15 talks about. Like it says in John 3, "That which is born of spirit IS spirit." Until you die and get reserected you're flesh, like it or not. When you're "born again" and get that new spirit body then you're spirit and born again.
This being born again when you accept Christ crap is just one more of the points in the Myth of Christainty(as opposed to the facts of Christanity as written in the bible) that drove me away from Christanity.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 3:25:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TNFrank:
Read John Chapter 3 and I Corr. Chapter 15 then forget what you've been told in church and go with what the bible says. Being "born again" has to do with the reserection and getting that new "spirt" body that I Corr. 15 talks about. Like it says in John 3, "That which is born of spirit IS spirit." Until you die and get reserected you're flesh, like it or not. When you're "born again" and get that new spirit body then you're spirit and born again.
This being born again when you accept Christ crap is just one more of the points in the Myth of Christainty(as opposed to the facts of Christanity as written in the bible) that drove me away from Christanity.



thats to bad you got the wrong info, and decided to move away from Christ.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 3:27:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TNFrank:
Read John Chapter 3 and I Corr. Chapter 15 then forget what you've been told in church and go with what the bible says. Being "born again" has to do with the reserection and getting that new "spirt" body that I Corr. 15 talks about. Like it says in John 3, "That which is born of spirit IS spirit." Until you die and get reserected you're flesh, like it or not. When you're "born again" and get that new spirit body then you're spirit and born again.
This being born again when you accept Christ crap is just one more of the points in the Myth of Christainty(as opposed to the facts of Christanity as written in the bible) that drove me away from Christanity.




Uhhhhhh....... OK. What about the part where Jesus says you should be "born again" (although he
didn't say it in English, so it wasn't exactly "again" but that's semantics)
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 3:42:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TexasSIG:

Originally Posted By TNFrank:
Read John Chapter 3 and I Corr. Chapter 15 then forget what you've been told in church and go with what the bible says. Being "born again" has to do with the reserection and getting that new "spirt" body that I Corr. 15 talks about. Like it says in John 3, "That which is born of spirit IS spirit." Until you die and get reserected you're flesh, like it or not. When you're "born again" and get that new spirit body then you're spirit and born again.
This being born again when you accept Christ crap is just one more of the points in the Myth of Christainty(as opposed to the facts of Christanity as written in the bible) that drove me away from Christanity.




Uhhhhhh....... OK. What about the part where Jesus says you should be "born again" (although he
didn't say it in English, so it wasn't exactly "again" but that's semantics)



Show me chapter and verse.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 3:44:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By walttx:

Originally Posted By TNFrank:
Read John Chapter 3 and I Corr. Chapter 15 then forget what you've been told in church and go with what the bible says. Being "born again" has to do with the reserection and getting that new "spirt" body that I Corr. 15 talks about. Like it says in John 3, "That which is born of spirit IS spirit." Until you die and get reserected you're flesh, like it or not. When you're "born again" and get that new spirit body then you're spirit and born again.
This being born again when you accept Christ crap is just one more of the points in the Myth of Christainty(as opposed to the facts of Christanity as written in the bible) that drove me away from Christanity.



thats to bad you got the wrong info, and decided to move away from Christ.



Please, don't feel bad for me. I'm happier now and have more peace in my life as a Heathen then I ever had as a Christian.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 4:38:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/16/2005 4:55:21 PM EDT by FMD]
I don't really like the "Born Again" title, but Dram is correct when he says it's sound doctrine to use the term. Being "born again", "born of Sprit", or "born from above" (your preference), is required for salvation.

However:

I dispute the notion of "baptismal regeneration". From my reading, that spiritual birth happens at belief (Romans 1:16), which is a product of Grace (Ephesians 2:4-8). I would say then that Baptism is mearly an outward expression or symbol of what has already occurred.

Look at the context and compare verse 5 to verse 6 in John chapter 3. If "born of water" = "baptism", then Jesus' words don't agree with scripture (Abraham, Isaac, Moses, etc., right up to the theif on the cross were most definately not baptised, but will be in heaven). If, in context, Jesus used "water" as a euphamism for "flesh", then the two verses make perfect sense, and Jesus' words don't contradict other parts of the Word*.

See this link for a basic understanding.



*ETA: Theoretically, "water" could also be an allusion to the regeneration and cleansing by the Holy Spirt (but still justified by Grace). See Titus 3:5-7.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 4:43:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/16/2005 5:20:02 PM EDT by VA-gunnut]
****Deleted****<va-gunnut>
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 4:48:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/16/2005 4:50:48 PM EDT by TexasSIG]

Originally Posted By TNFrank:

Show me chapter and verse.



Well, someone hasn't read this entire thread I guess, or the Bible.

I borrow the following from Wild Boar with thanks to him for posting it:


(John 3:4 NKJV) Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"

(John 3:5 NKJV) Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

(John 3:6 NKJV) "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

(John 3:7 NKJV) "Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'

(John 3:8 NKJV) "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."




How's that? Clear enough? Maybe you should spend some time reading the Bible before
posting in the Religion Forum again. I mean, debating theology is one thing, but you can't
just claim the Bible doesn't say something that it CLEARLY does say.

Dude, it's not even one of the sidebar books of the Bible, or a Letter, this here's the red
letters straight from the Gospel of John. Nothing you can quote takes precedence
over the words of Christ Himself.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 4:48:54 PM EDT
1st Cor. 20

But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21

For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
death Gen 5:5, Job 30:23, Psa 49:10, Psa 89:48, Rom 5:12, Heb 9:27
22

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
die Gen 3:19
23

But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

At Christ's coming(which will be in the air) you will be called from the grave where you sleep and be born from above.

42

So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43

It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44

It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45

And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
man Gen 2:7
quickening
46

Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47

The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48

As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49

And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53

For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54

So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
Isa 25:8


When does it say we go from a mortal or natural body(the body of flesh that John chapter 3 spoke about) to become a spiritual, immortal body(a body of spirit), read it. You are "born again" with a body of spirit(remember that which is born of the spirit IS spirit) at the resurection, NOT when you accept Christ as saviour.

Read it for what it says, not what you've been told all these years. You're "born again" at the second coming of Christ when you're resurected to a spiritual body, that's being born of the spirit, not being "saved".
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 4:53:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/16/2005 4:53:35 PM EDT by TexasSIG]

Originally Posted By TNFrank:

Some stuff from the Bible that IS NOT from the Gospel.





Maybe you better read up on this stuff, seriously. When you read the Bible, in the New Testament,
there are letters and words in RED.

These are DIRECT QUOTATIONS from CHRIST HIMSELF. These count a tiny bit more
in the grand scheme of things than anything that Leviticus or Genesis or Revelation or whatever.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 4:54:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PocketG:
Don't you think I would hurt my mom severly if I was born again?



I think you'd hurt your mom more if you WEREN'T born again, assuming she
loves you and cares about your soul.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 4:56:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TexasSIG:

Originally Posted By PocketG:
Don't you think I would hurt my mom severly if I was born again?



I think you'd hurt your mom more if you WEREN'T born again, assuming she
loves you and cares about your soul.



Well played!
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 4:59:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TexasSIG:

Originally Posted By TNFrank:

Some stuff from the Bible that IS NOT from the Gospel.





Maybe you better read up on this stuff, seriously. When you read the Bible, in the New Testament,
there are letters and words in RED.

These are DIRECT QUOTATIONS from CHRIST HIMSELF. These count a tiny bit more
in the grand scheme of things than anything that Leviticus or Genesis or Revelation or whatever.



Correct me but aren't Christians suppose to believe that ALL the words in the bible are from god, not just the ones in red?? Since the bible was written After Christ's return to his father who's to say that the "red" words are exactly what he said. Remember, these guys are writting from memory 30 or 40 years after the fact. On a side note you can pretty much say that Paul, not Jesus, had more to do with the New Testement and Christianity then Jesus did. Like I said a couple time already, read 1st Cor. chapter 15 and compare it with John chapter 3 and you'll better understand what "born again" really is and when it really takes place.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 5:17:39 PM EDT
Hmm...

I addressed this in another thread but I will do so again. There are those who believe in baptismal regeneration and those who are faith alone or as I have named them for my own convenience "faithist".

This faithist approach has only come into play in the last 100 odd years and is unique in that it was not discussed or preached as up until that time baptism had ALWAYS played a vital role in Christianity until the advent of this doctrinal enigma.

Why eliminate the necessity for baptism? I personally dont know why.

Several things will need to be discussed:

When are you saved?

What is a work? How is it defined?

Can you eliminate specific and descriptive scripture to arrive at a conclusion you would prefer?
Or do you have to take all scripture that relates to a subject and read them as a whole/

Thief on the cross, did he die before Christ did, and does that mean he lived under the Old Testament Law of Moses that was in full effect until Jesus died for us on the cross?


Lots of questions here to debate concerning this topic. The faithist notions were discussed already once or twice in the General discussion, I know Garandman, ETH, and myself all went to bat for our respective points of view.

But, these are all questions that perhaps need their own thread.Seeing as there are too many facets to explore.

The faithist enlisting of Old Testament figures is very perplexing to me as they lived under the Law of Moses and have NO PART in the New Testament, save that they were the predictors of Christs coming and the manner of His death for us. They have no other role as such in the Jesus' New Testament.

FMD

You marvel at Nicodemus asking about being born again, and Christ explains that it must be so even though Nicodemus did not comprehend it. There is NO OTHER EXPLANATION other than that which Christ Jesus gave:

Joh:3:4: Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Joh:3:5: Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Christ is speaking SPECIFICALLY of the waters of baptism.

How do I know this for TRUTH?

Ro:6:3: Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Ro:6:4: Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Ro:6:5: For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Scriptural full immersion baptism is required to be born again... there is NO OTHER WAY.

I am thoroughly confused as to how it can be denied.

Baptism is necessary... baptizo in the original Greek, if you will. Not sprinkle nor pour... but burial. We cannot partake in the death of Christ without that burial. Christ said it, and it was repeated in Romans.

How can you reject a firm declaration?

The Ethiopian Eunuch upon learning the Truth that is Christ Jesus asked immediately for what?

Ac:8:35: Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
Ac:8:36: And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
Ac:8:37: And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Ac:8:38: And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

First their is belief, and FAITH that Christ Jesus died for your sins and that you must be born again in the waters of baptism. Faith is of the Spirit, and the vehicle for rebirth was Christs own choice... burial with Him, in a death like His, and rise up and walk in a different life.

What is wrong with doing as Christ asked us? I dont know honestly.

Dram out



Link Posted: 8/16/2005 5:22:32 PM EDT
OK, let's go over this slowly so ya'll will get it.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.(Jesus)
1st Cor.15:44
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.(Paul)

See the word "sown". What is "sown"? The dead, natural(flesh) body. and what do you get at the resurection when the natural body is raised, a SPIRITUAL body, a "born again" body.

John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
What will people that are "born again" look like, read the verse, they'll be like the wind, they'll be Spirit, not flesh. Now, look at yourself, what are you made of? Flesh right, so have you been "born again" yet? No, when will you be "born again"?
1st Cor.15:47
The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48
As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49
And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.(Paul)

Notice vers 50, "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.", you, in your present state, the fleshly state cannot inherit the kingdom of God, you must wait until you're "born again", born into a Spiritual body at the second coming of Christ to inherit the kingdom of God.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
This is what Jesus is saying here and it fits perfectly with 1st Cor. chapter 15 and the whole resurection at the second coming, being born again then and not when you accept Christ as saviour deal.
Now do you get it or do you want to ignore what your own Bible says????
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 5:23:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dramborleg:

Some stuff about Baptism.

Dram out






As much as I hate to admit it, all that is spot on as far as I can tell, and I'm shocked
that something as plainly required as this is argued by ANYONE that's ever read
the Bible.

The only argument I have is a procedural thing, I dont' necessarily think it matters whether
your entire body is dunked or you are sprinkled with 2 drops, the idea is the same. But,
that's just procedural, some churches like the dunking tank or a river. Personally
I'm good with the river like Christ was, but not every Church has a river in the back yard
so a Baptismal Font with a half gallon of water certainly serves.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 6:08:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/16/2005 6:18:04 PM EDT by FMD]

Originally Posted By Dramborleg:
This faithist approach has only come into play in the last 100 odd years and is unique in that it was not discussed or preached as up until that time baptism had ALWAYS played a vital role in Christianity until the advent of this doctrinal enigma.



100 years old? Maybe I wasn't clear, or maybe you were'nt, but the foundational rejection of doctrine of Baptismal Regeneration is close to 490 years old (1517 - The Reformation), and I might even say earlier.

Notice that the Apostle's Creed (authored somewhere between 500 and 1400 AD) doesn't mention Baptism at all. The Didache (50~300 AD) only describes the manner in which Baptism is to take place.

The The Heidelberg Catechism (1563) has this to say:

Question 72. Is then the external baptism with water the washing away of sin itself?

Answer: Not at all: (a) for the blood of Jesus Christ only, and the Holy Ghost cleanse us from all sin. (b)


The Westminster Confession (1646) says:

...Although it be a great sin to contemn or neglect this ordinance [baptism], yet grace and salvation are not so inseparably annexed unto it as that no person can be regenerated or saved without it, or that all that are baptized are undoubtedly regenerated.

I never claimed that Baptism wasn't important, rather that it wasn't required (see Westminster above).


Originally Posted By Dramborleg:
First their is belief, and FAITH that Christ Jesus died for your sins and that you must be born again in the waters of baptism. Faith is of the Spirit agreed, and the vehicle for rebirth was Christs own choice... burial with Him, in a death like His, and rise up and walk in a different life.

What is wrong with doing as Christ asked us? I dont know honestly.



Nothing wrong at all with Baptism. As a matter of fact, Baptism is a command rather than a request. What I have an issue with the idea of Baptism as a "vehicle of rebirth", and required for salvation/justification. That belongs to Faith through Grace alone.


Edit: Fixed quotes.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 6:32:54 PM EDT
The only reason I would mention full burial is that is what is, rather plainly, required.

I cannot see burial in a stream of water, or in a shower of water... they do not fit.

In the original Greek it is Baptizo meaning immerse.

Therefore, in order to fulfill the original intent, I would not reccommend anything other than burial.

I have found in reading scripture that it is dangerous to change that which God has intended for us to do. I have NO AUTHORITY to change one thing that Christ has said. God slew just a few people that thought they could do as they will, and gravely inconvenienced some others. Jonah and Naaman for two.

Christ wants what He wants... not what I want.

Isa:55:8: For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isa:55:9: For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

It is not fit for man, IMHO, to meddle with that which Christ has declared. To obey or not is the gift we have received.


My .02

Dram
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 8:36:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/16/2005 8:38:55 PM EDT by FMD]

Originally Posted By Dramborleg:
It is not fit for man, IMHO, to meddle with that which Christ has declared. To obey or not is the gift we have received.



To summarize:

Your contention is that baptism is a required agent for spiritual "rebirth" based on an intrepretation of a single verse, and the fact that we are commanded to baptize believers. You further stated that any other idea is no more than 100 years old.

I disagreed with doctrine, having an exegesis plainly rooted in the Word*, and at least 500 years of protestant Church History behind it.

Now we're on the definition of the Greek "baptismo",and Jesus' "original intent" (despite the fact that He spoke Aramaic, not Greek) along with the inferred efficacy of immersion?

I'll stand on the Word* (with no "meddling" needed).


*Baptism of the Spirt, justification by Faith through Grace [Mat 9:22, Mark 2:5, 5:34, 10:52, Luke 3:16, 5:20, 7:50, 8:48, 18:42, John 1:33, Acts 1:5, 10:47, 11:16, 15:8-11, Romans 3:22-28, 4:16, 5:1, 1Cor 1:17, 12:13, Gal 2:16, 3:7, Eph 1:7, 2:5-8, 3:17, 2Tim 1:9, 3:15, Heb 11, Tit 2:11, 3:7 1Pet:1:5-9]
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 2:16:49 AM EDT
Ok, so now we're on the "baptize or not to baptize" kick. Here's my 2 cents.
To say that you can be a Christian without being baptized would be like saying that you can be a Jew without being Circumcised. You stated that being baptized was a Comandment of Christ not a requirement for salvation BUT if you can't keep Christ's comands then how can you call yourself a Christian. The whole point of being a "Christian" is in following the teaching of the Christ, is it not? Therefore, since Christ comanded baptism one can logically draw a conclusion that to be a "Christian" would mean to be baptized as well.
Once again the lie is followed closer then the truth. The Myth takes center stage over what the word of god really says about something.
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 5:23:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/17/2005 5:25:17 AM EDT by FMD]
Dram, TnFrank, TxSig, or anyone else that believes water baptism is required for salvation: Please read all the verses I referenced at the end of my last post before you reply.


Originally Posted By TNFrank:
The Myth takes center stage over what the word of god really says about something.



Which "myth" would that be? The one that says no work of man (including water baptism) is a righteous enough act to gain salavation?

Ephesians 2

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


To the non-RC/CoE/Anglicans: Yes, Baptism is a command just as evangalizing and celebration of the Lord's Supper, and I believe it's a sin to purposely disregard any of them [James 4:17]. However, in every case in the New Testament, faith comes before baptism. To state that Baptism is required falls under the same idea that Communion (trans-substantiation or con-substantiation) is also a requirement. We could then also add evangelism and loving our neighbors as ourselves to that list (all of the above being commands of Christ). Next we'd be adding the fruits of the Spirit (all of them) and visiting orphans and widows as requirements. Pretty soon, we're right back to physical circumcision and the Levitical Law.

Unfortuantely for that legalistic argument, Scipture is clear that faith (salvation in the belief of Jesus' death and resurrection), not being of ourselves (i.e. justification because of God's Grace in giving us faith) and the gift of the Holy Spirit (regeneration through the Holy Ghost) are what saves us (or makes us "Born Again" to keep this on topic). Faith, Grace, and the gift of the Holy Spirit precedes any "good work" of man every time.

Yes, faith without works is "dead" [James 2:17, 20, 24, & 26], but how much more of a spiritual death sentance is it if our hope for salvation is based on our own works instead of faith in God's? Context is key here, just as it is with the rest of the Word. Verses 17, 20, 24, and 26 do not stand on their own (James' admonition and exhortation starts at verse 8 and runs through Chapter 4), and should be looked at together with the rest of the New Testament (references at the end of my last post).

Respectfully,
FMD
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 12:01:02 PM EDT
Acts 2:37
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Gee, that looks pretty clear to me. It doesn't say "go forward in church and pray" it says "REPENT,AND BE BAPTIZED" and for what, "REMISSION OF SINS". Unless english is your second language I'd say that's pretty clear, Baptism is how you get saved, not praying. Need more proof. OK here it is:

Acts 8:35
Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
8:36
And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
8:37
And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
8:38
And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
8:39
And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

How did the Eunuch get "saved", he was Baptized, he didn't pray or raise his hand in church, he got into the water and Philip Baptized him.
I don't know why people have to make this stuff so hard, it's really quite simple.

One more time:
Act 10:47
Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
10:48
And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Baptism is the way you show your inward acceptance of Christ, if you don't get Baptized then it's questionable as to weather you're really following Christ or not.
You can't be a Jew unless you're Circumcised and you can't be a Christian unless you get Baptized, it's just that simple.
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 12:18:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FMD:
Dram, TnFrank, TxSig, or anyone else that believes water baptism is required for salvation: Please read all the verses I referenced at the end of my last post before you reply.




I would say that since Christ was Baptized in water, that the practice would be generally accepted
as proper. Whether or not there are other scriptures that provide for otherwise, I would say
following the example of Christ would be good advice.

I would disagree with Dram that it requires full immersion. There are just plain practical
situations where full immersion Baptisms can't be done and any water at all fulfills the
"good faith" performance of a Baptism.

I would hate to think God would be unhappy because a Church for whatever reason
couldn't come up with a river or a big tank of water. That's stretching the "exact
adherance" to scripture a bit much. Jesus didn't offer air conditioning when
he preached either, should we shut off the AC on Sunday mornings?
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