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Posted: 10/22/2004 4:03:12 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/22/2004 4:04:12 AM EST by kill-9]
www.coxandforkum.com



An excerpt from the accompanying commentary:
--
Objectivist scholar Leonard Peikoff has explained why democracy does not equal freedom (from The Ayn Rand Lexicon, edited by Harry Binswanger):

The American system is not a democracy. It is a constitutional republic. A democracy, if you attach meaning to terms, is a system of unlimited majority rule; the classic example is ancient Athens. And the symbol of it is the fate of Socrates, who was put to death legally, because the majority didn't like what he was saying, although he had initiated no force and had violated no one's rights.
Democracy, in short, is a form of collectivism, which denies the individual rights: the majority can do whatever it wants with no restrictions. In principle, the democratic government is all-powerful. Democracy is a totalitarian manifestation; it is not a form of freedom...

The American system is a constitutionally limited republic, restricted to the protection of individual rights. In such a system, majority rule is applicable only to lesser details, such as the selection of certain personnel. But the majority has no say over the basic principles governing the government. It has no power to ask for or gain the infringement of individual rights.


A free Iraq (or Afghanistan, or Iran for that matter) would not have to exactly duplicate the American system of government, but it would have to duplicate our basic protection of the individual against the majority, i.e., against a democracy.
--
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 4:08:53 AM EST
Good post.

Democracy=mob rule.

Linking Bush to the Socrates affair and Crystal Night is insane.
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 4:27:22 AM EST
What?! When did GW condole Socrates being put to death and Hitler being given massive amounts of power in Germany? This is ridiculous. And I do not think that GW will allow the Iraqis to pursue an Islamic Fundamentalist government. If he, or (John Kerry) allowed this to happen, he would be doing a disservice to Iraq, to our country and to the world.

Islamic Fundamentalism is not a democratic institution, even if it was democratically created. Once the people choose this system, a system that disregards basic human rights, women's rights, freedom of speech, religious freedom, etc - they have no way of changing it back except through vilolent revolution. In our country, we could elect a communist as President, but if we didn't like him, we could vote him out in 4 years. That's not the case in Iran....

I don't know where people get the idea that these institutions are democratic just because they were put in place by a popular vote. The process may have been democratic, but the institution is the fartherst thing from it. The cartoonist is really stretching the limits of spin here.
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 4:33:05 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 5:39:44 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/22/2004 5:41:38 AM EST by kill-9]

Originally Posted By AdrianUSP9:
I don't know where people get the idea that these institutions are democratic just because they were put in place by a popular vote. The process may have been democratic, but the institution is the fartherst thing from it.



That is part of the point of this cartoon.


The cartoonist is really stretching the limits of spin here.


Huh? You just contradicted your previous statement.
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 5:41:20 AM EST
The cartoon makes a good point, Democracy cannot be trusted. Thank god we do not live in a Democracy!
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 5:43:02 AM EST

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
The cartoon makes a good point, Democracy cannot be trusted. Thank god we do not live in a Democracy!



EXACTLY!!!

This is why it's so important that people understand that we live in a REPUBLIC!
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 5:44:30 AM EST

Originally Posted By TimJ:
Linking Bush to the Socrates affair and Crystal Night is insane.



No. It's par for the course for these creeps....
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 5:47:40 AM EST

Originally Posted By Zaphod:

Originally Posted By TimJ:
Linking Bush to the Socrates affair and Crystal Night is insane.



No. It's par for the course for these creeps....



I heard that Hailiburton and a young Dick Cheney set the Reichstag fire themselves!
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 6:08:09 AM EST
The cartoon makes a very good point.

Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner. Taking the position that whatever a plurality of the voters in Iraq want is what should happen, without any regard to the rights of the minority population, is ludicrous.
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 6:11:01 AM EST

Originally Posted By TimJ:
Good post.

Democracy=mob rule.

Linking Bush to the Socrates affair and Crystal Night is insane.



I have to agree with that.

I think C&F severely overreacted to this very common misuse of the term. Bush frequently asserts the rights of individuals over whims of 'the mob.' He obviously does not believe 'Democracy is Democracy."

I always thought these guys were Bush supporters, but perhaps they're just anti-left.

Link Posted: 10/22/2004 6:51:43 AM EST

Originally Posted By the:

Originally Posted By TimJ:
Good post.

Democracy=mob rule.

Linking Bush to the Socrates affair and Crystal Night is insane.



I have to agree with that.

I think C&F severely overreacted to this very common misuse of the term. Bush frequently asserts the rights of individuals over whims of 'the mob.' He obviously does not believe 'Democracy is Democracy."

I always thought these guys were Bush supporters, but perhaps they're just anti-left.




They're not anti-left, they're pro-freedom. Whenever President Bush has talked about defending freedom, they've been solidly behind him. But when he talks about, for example, establishment of a Palestinian state or his Secretary of State equivocates at the UN, they will properly bash the President.

Allowing fundamentalist Islamic governments to be established in either Afghanistan or Iraq would oppress those populations. President Bush has repeatedly stated acquiesance to "the will of the people" in those countries, nicely encapsulating that sentiment in his "democracy is democracy" remark. That's the point C&F are making.
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 6:56:46 AM EST
[DU]I always knew that bush was responsible for hitlers assent to power![/DU]
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 7:00:20 AM EST
never really thought about it that way.
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 8:43:41 AM EST
if through the course of history that those commie assholes can only site 2 instances where Democracy was a "bad thing" and go on to speculate that a islamic state could be born as a result of democracy....

Well we should be able to speculate that if Sadaam stayed in power that we would have seen another 9/11-like attack - bought and paid for by his regime.

I'll take my chances with Democracy rather than leaving that camel humper in power
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 8:45:43 AM EST
Typical.


But it ignores the most important part of Iraq's movement towards freedom.

Remember when they adopted a Constitution?
That PLUS democracy....
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 9:28:04 AM EST

Originally Posted By Cincinnatus:
Typical.


But it ignores the most important part of Iraq's movement towards freedom.

Remember when they adopted a Constitution?
That PLUS democracy....



Their constitution makes individual rights subordinate to Islamic law.
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 10:52:35 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 11:35:45 AM EST

Originally Posted By JHP:
if through the course of history that those commie assholes can only site 2 instances where Democracy was a "bad thing" and go on to speculate that a islamic state could be born as a result of democracy....

Well we should be able to speculate that if Sadaam stayed in power that we would have seen another 9/11-like attack - bought and paid for by his regime.

I'll take my chances with Democracy rather than leaving that camel humper in power



Coxandforkum are conervatives, its a pretty good site.
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 11:42:43 AM EST
Democracy's great insofar as it is subordinate to the rights and liberties of the individual. Those principles are more important than the majority ruling one way or the other.
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 11:54:10 AM EST

Originally Posted By raven:
Democracy's great insofar as it is subordinate to the rights and liberties of the individual. Those principles are more important than the majority ruling one way or the other.



Thats a very western thought, and one I agree with wholeheartedly.
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 11:58:36 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 12:49:53 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/22/2004 12:56:40 PM EST by Cincinnatus]

Originally Posted By kill-9:

Originally Posted By Cincinnatus:
Typical.


But it ignores the most important part of Iraq's movement towards freedom.

Remember when they adopted a Constitution?
That PLUS democracy....



Their constitution makes individual rights subordinate to Islamic law.



That is absolutely false.

Here's the Iraqi Constitution:
www.cpa-iraq.org/government/TAL.html

NOTHING in it suggests that "individual rights (are) subordinate to Islamic law".
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 1:13:48 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/22/2004 1:16:35 PM EST by brasspile]
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 2:02:41 PM EST
Perhaps, but other sections on the rights of the individual prohibit discrimination based on religion.

Well, I hope they have enough lawyers. They're going to need them.
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 2:06:20 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 2:10:46 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/22/2004 2:11:59 PM EST by kill-9]

Originally Posted By Cincinnatus:

Originally Posted By kill-9:

Originally Posted By Cincinnatus:
Typical.


But it ignores the most important part of Iraq's movement towards freedom.

Remember when they adopted a Constitution?
That PLUS democracy....



Their constitution makes individual rights subordinate to Islamic law.



That is absolutely false.

Here's the Iraqi Constitution:
www.cpa-iraq.org/government/TAL.html

NOTHING in it suggests that "individual rights (are) subordinate to Islamic law".



Hey, cool, thanks for the pointer. From Chapter 2, Article 7:


Islam is the official religion of the State and is to be considered a source of legislation. No law that contradicts the universally agreed tenets of Islam, the principles of democracy, or the rights cited in Chapter Two of this Law may be enacted during the transitional period.


Note that "the universally agreed tenets of Islam" is listed first.

Edit: Oops, I now see that brasspile beat me to the punch.
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 2:14:12 PM EST

Originally Posted By brasspile:
I do not think a government sponsored religion is a Good Idea, but, well, they picked it.



brasspile, with this statement are you agreeing with President Bush that you're "disappointed", but hey, "democracy is democracy"?
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 2:16:45 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 2:25:20 PM EST

Originally Posted By brasspile:

Originally Posted By kill-9:

Originally Posted By brasspile:
I do not think a government sponsored religion is a Good Idea, but, well, they picked it.



brasspile, with this statement are you agreeing with President Bush that you're "disappointed", but hey, "democracy is democracy"?



Well, I guess if you put it like that, yep.

If we don't let them decide their fate, we might as well go the whole 9 yards and make it Iraq, Republic Of USA.



Do you think so? I'm a little weak on my post-WWII history; how did we handle Germany and Japan? Did we not impose a constitution on each of them?

In any case, rather than just shrug and say "OK, whatever you want", we should exercise our considerable influence to convince them to make protection of individual rights the primary tenent in that document.
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 4:54:04 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/22/2004 4:55:41 PM EST by brasspile]
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 5:01:40 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/22/2004 5:02:12 PM EST by EternallyIndebted]
Democracy should not be trusted because it puts the will of a usually ignorant majority over the rights of a minority, that being the individual; seems kind of socialistic to me.

I think that when the rights of the individual are protected you inturn protect the rights of the whole.
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 6:50:40 PM EST
btt for the late night crew
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 6:58:05 AM EST
btt for the weekend crew
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 9:13:01 AM EST
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