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Posted: 5/17/2003 4:36:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/17/2003 4:41:30 PM EDT by AR15USA]
Went to my local gun show today(Houston). Saw a dealer there has a lot AR's stuff, Lowers, uppers, stocks......Then a few Mexican walk to his tables looking for AR. I walked away, 20 min later when I came back, you know what I saw! This dealer was putting a 10'5 inch upper(A2 flash hider) on the lower, I was standing there for 5 min to watch him. Then he put a cheap flash light and an Eotech on the upper. After he finished it, he put the gun in a bag, and gave to the buyer. I immediately said to him and the buyer:" sir, that is illegal class 3 gun, you can not have a barrel shorter than 16" on the rifle until you have the approval From 1 from ATF." The buyer was surprised,and later I found out this buyer doesn't know about AR at all, and he didn't even know what is Preban and Postban. However, this f%^%ing asshole dealer responded with:" I knew, it's OK, ATF never prosecuted anyone." [b]WTF[/b], I couldn't believe he said that. Anyway I repeated three times to him:" it is still illegal." The buyer started worry about it, and asked him if it is illegal or not. He never answered, but said to me:" I was going to put a 5.5 inch flash hider on it." What a f%^%ing liar, he already put the rifle in the bag and gave to the buyer. Then he took off the A2 flash hider and put a 5.5 inch flash hider on it. After he finished it and handled it to the buyer, he said to the buyer:" I usually don't change the flash hider for the customer, but I did it for you." I thought there was nothing for me anymore, so I left his table. Later, I saw that buyer again, I asked him how much did he pay for his AR, he said $2100. I asked him to let me look at it, he handled it to me and said:" that dealer told me it's all Colt except the lower". I looked at this AR closely, that's where I really started to get pissed, it is an Rock River Arms's lower with Preban upper, YES, the upper has flash hider, bayonet lag, and has RRA 6 position collapsible on the lower. I think you guys knows, all the RRA lowers are Postban, there is no Preban RRA lower in this world. I told the buyer he got screwed, that dealer sold him an illegal Postban AR, and Colt doesn't make 10.5" barrel with green handguard, and doesn't make 6 position green collapsible either, you need to go get your money back. I don't know he understand it or not, or he just careless, he didn't go back to get refund and just walked out with that $2100 postban rifle. I am a dealer myself, but I couldn't understand why has such asshole do such things. Yes, it's not my business, but I am really pissed. Yes, he made a lot of money on that AR, and maybe one day he will become an millionaire, but in my book, his name is still "ASSHOLE". Sorry for the spelling, guys, I am so pissed now.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 5:08:43 PM EDT
That dealer needs a blanket party.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 5:12:01 PM EDT
gunshow narc
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 5:17:27 PM EDT
It's dealers like this guy that will sell a gun to an under cover reporter in the parking lot, or brag about how SS109 ammo is really AP ammo and will go through an inch of steel to same reporter. No good can come from a dealer that not only breaks the law but screws the customers over while doing so. Did you pick up one of his business cards? I'll probably get flamed for this, but I suggest you contact the ATF and let them know exactly what you saw. With the media chomping at the bit for a major "assault weapons" story we don't need crap like this going on.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 5:17:47 PM EDT
Bull. Being a narc? The Dealer is supposed to know what is legal and what is not. It sounds like the customer was flat out lied to. There is a difference between putting a high price on something and looking for a bite, and quite another to misrepresent and sell illegal goods. That was WAAAAAAAAAAAAAY over the line.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 5:18:44 PM EDT
I don't know why your panties are in a wad. You have 3 choices: 1. Ignore it and live your life (I am assumung your life's ambition is not to become a junior BATFE thug). 2. Let the show promoter know so the promoter does not have to endure the pain of a BATFE sting. IMO, this is probably the best option. 3. Drop a dime on the doofus and let the BATFE know that doofus is selling SBR/FAs to illegal alien gangbangers
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 5:21:22 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Silence: gunshow narc
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I disagree. I have been taken advantage of by an unscrupulous dealer at a gunshow before (when I had alot less knowledge than I do now). And it would have saved me alot of headache if there had been somebody more knowledgeable than me there to inform me what I was purchasing was illegaly configured. This isn't about whether or not the law is just or not. It's about ripping someone off and putting them in legal jeapordy at the same time.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 5:22:05 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 5:25:30 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ShamusMcOI:
Originally Posted By Silence: gunshow narc
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I disagree. I have been taken advantage of by an unscrupulous dealer at a gunshow before (when I had alot less knowledge than I do now). And it would have saved me alot of headache if there had been somebody more knowledgeable than me there to inform me what I was purchasing was illegaly configured. This isn't about whether or not the law is just or not. It's about ripping someone off and putting them in legal jeapordy at the same time.
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Caveat Emptor
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 5:36:58 PM EDT
if i saw a guy selling an illegal gun to someone and the someone knew what he was doing, i'd keep my mouth shut but do something like that to an ignorant newbie, and you deserve to be called out
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 5:45:40 PM EDT
$2100 FOR A POST-BAN [wow] AR15USA Good story. Dealers like that is what is hurting the cause in getting back our Second Amendment Rights. Selling of illegal weapons is bullshit and maybe that guy will get his just deserve. I would not feel one bit sorry for him if he gets busted and serves a little jail time.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 5:47:47 PM EDT
Im gonna Keep it simple. NARC!!! NARC
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 5:50:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/17/2003 5:51:57 PM EDT by Tonys68l36]
Thats the same stuff that makes all of us gun owners look bad. Can you imagine if this were some kinda ATF sting or worse local news channel doing a spot on how the AWB is doing no good "and here's a example of what we bought today at the local gunshow. We need to ban all of these weapons" People who are not concerned about this type of behavior are simply IDIOTS. BTW Shoot me an IM I would like to know what dealer to avoid.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 5:52:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By nwatson99: Dealers like that is what is hurting the cause in getting back our Second Amendment Rights. Selling of illegal weapons is bullshit and maybe that guy will get his just deserve. I would not feel one bit sorry for him if he gets busted and serves a little jail time.
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How? I mean unless you support gun control, and believe that a weapon should be 'illegal', why do you believe that selling 'illegal weapons' deserves jail time? Will you say the same thing when EVERY firearm is 'illegal'? hmm?
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 5:53:06 PM EDT
I fail to see how you can be a "narc" for pointing out a complete crook that will end up screwing all of us because of actions like this.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 5:54:56 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 5:59:02 PM EDT
The 10.5 bbl is illegal no matter if the ban goes out the door or not. This ass reamer doesnt deserve an FFL, narc my ass. Wonder what else this FFL has sold in the past, maby a few Mac 10s to the homies in the hood?
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 6:02:03 PM EDT
Its one thing to buy an illegally configured postban if as the buyer, you know it is illegal. Its one thing to configure your own postban into an illegal configuration. It is a completely different thing to sell an illegal rifle to someone who doesn't know any better. Both situation #1 & #2 you took the risk... you are responsible for your own actions. #3 is completely different. Here someone else is putting a newbie in a position to be busted for something he is completely unaware of. Whether you think it is illegal/bad law/stupid..doesn't matter. What matters is some sleazy dealer sold an $800 rifle for $2100 and put the buyer in jeopardy of being arrested. These type dealers are the ones who should be turned in.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 6:02:21 PM EDT
Man, I am upset myself now. I should do or could do more than what I did.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 6:03:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By WILSON:
TomJefferson: $2,100 POST BAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Damn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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No, no - you don't understand! It's a $2,100 POST-BAN PRE-BAN! Very special. [:D]
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Or is it one of the prototype PostPostBans!
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 6:05:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By neilfj: Its one thing to buy an illegally configured postban if as the buyer, you know it is illegal. Its one thing to configure your own postban into an illegal configuration. It is a completely different thing to sell an illegal rifle to someone who doesn't know any better. Both situation #1 & #2 you took the risk... you are responsible for your own actions. #3 is completely different. Here someone else is putting a newbie in a position to be busted for something he is completely unaware of. Whether you think it is illegal/bad law/stupid..doesn't matter. What matters is some sleazy dealer sold an $800 rifle for $2100 and put the buyer in jeopardy of being arrested. These type dealers are the ones who should be turned in.
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exactly, that dealer is a major dirtbag. He should be in jail getting cozy with Bubba. These are the people who make us all look bad.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 6:11:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/17/2003 6:16:36 PM EDT by AR15USA]
Originally Posted By Tonys68l36: BTW Shoot me an IM I would like to know what dealer to avoid.
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Tony I saw this dealer at every Houston gun show, he has at least 5 tables and he has a lot of AR stuff. My friend went to gunshow with me, he knows their name. I will get it for you. Also, if you go to the Brown Convention Center tomorrow, when you walk in, I think third or fouth row from the right, the first one on the row is him, he has a lot tables. He was wearing a red Tshirt today.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 6:11:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Silence:
Originally Posted By nwatson99: Dealers like that is what is hurting the cause in getting back our Second Amendment Rights. Selling of illegal weapons is bullshit and maybe that guy will get his just deserve. I would not feel one bit sorry for him if he gets busted and serves a little jail time.
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How? I mean unless you support gun control, and believe that a weapon should be 'illegal', why do you believe that selling 'illegal weapons' deserves jail time? Will you say the same thing when EVERY firearm is 'illegal'? hmm?
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Silence Do you think this guy should have sold that weapon with that configuration? Don't you think if the buyer was picked up with the weapon, and the weapon was linked back to this dealer. The anti-gunners / liberals would not feed from such a sale and try to use this as leverage to prove even with the gun laws in effect today the dealers are not complying thus we need stricter laws and more bans? The gun laws are in effect and there is nothing we can do about it. We can only hope and show our support the AWB is not reactivated so we may choose the configuration of the weapon we so desire. Selling guns that is not legal to the criteria is bullshit and it only hurts the fight to have the AWB lifted. The weapon was illegal in the configuration which it was sold, if we the gun owners do not follow these guide lines and show we are responsible in our purchases, thus following the bullshit guide lines that have been set in place by our governing body. We will not stand a chance it getting our rights back. The dealer who sold this weapon is no better than a piece of shit selling guns to gang bangers, convicted felons, or the common criminal element we have in our society. Yes I feel he would deserve jail time if caught for his actions. One non honest gun dealer off the streets gives a better opportunity for an honest gun dealer to sell our beloved Firearms.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 6:13:22 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Silence:
Originally Posted By ShamusMcOI:
Originally Posted By Silence: gunshow narc
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I disagree. I have been taken advantage of by an unscrupulous dealer at a gunshow before (when I had alot less knowledge than I do now). And it would have saved me alot of headache if there had been somebody more knowledgeable than me there to inform me what I was purchasing was illegaly configured. This isn't about whether or not the law is just or not. It's about ripping someone off and putting them in legal jeapordy at the same time.
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Caveat Emptor
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Bullshit response that doesn't really address the issue. Yes the buyer should be informed. But from what was said, he was obviously misled. Sorry, but I'd rather side with an uninformed buyer that with a lying, cheating, theiveing, dirtbag dealer.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 6:21:22 PM EDT
Originally Posted By neilfj: Its one thing to buy an illegally configured postban if as the buyer, you know it is illegal.
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ok
Its one thing to configure your own postban into an illegal configuration.
View Quote
Ok
It is a completely different thing to sell an illegal rifle to someone who doesn't know any better.
View Quote
Sorta
Both situation #1 & #2 you took the risk... you are responsible for your own actions. #3 is completely different. Here someone else is putting a newbie in a position to be busted for something he is completely unaware of.
View Quote
As I said before, Caveat Emptor. If you are not knowledgeable enough to know and understand the risks you are taking to do something (such as the 'sin' of buying an evil looking firearm) then MAYBE it is not something you should be doing.
Whether you think it is illegal/bad law/stupid..doesn't matter. What matters is some sleazy dealer sold an $800 rifle for $2100 and put the buyer in jeopardy of being arrested. These type dealers are the ones who should be turned in.
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I agree the dealer is a slimeball. But to 'turn in' somebody for the ignorance of others is wrong. If someone is willing to pay for something, and they are ignorant enough to not know the pertentinet laws and regulations then maybe they really shouldnt be buying that item. Ignorance of the Law is not an applicable defense. I mean what is the bloody difference (other than an assinine and unConstitutional law passed in 1934) between a 16in upper and a 11in upper? If you can trust someone to own a firearm, why not a short one? I mean some of you people saying 'that makes us look bad' are part of the problem. To the anti's even owning ANY firearm 'makes us look bad'. I mean really think about it. Will you claim that those that refuse to turn in their 'black rifles' when they are totally banned 'makes the rest of us lawful gunowners look bad'. It is horseshit. Either someone should be able to own firearms, of any make or model, or they shouldnt. And the only thing that should be used to judge whether or not they can is their own personal actions. And until enough people get the BALLs enough start the civil disobedience in regards to these unConstitutional laws then the ANTIs are winning, and you are CONTRIBUTING to the anti's winning.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 6:24:32 PM EDT
This sounds similar to the guy at HKpro.com. He paid $3000+ for a SW5! The seller told him it was marked SW because they were the importer and that it was actually a HK94! It gets better. This guy was originally looking for a A3 stock to put install.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 6:29:32 PM EDT
Originally Posted By nwatson99:
Originally Posted By Silence:
Originally Posted By nwatson99: Dealers like that is what is hurting the cause in getting back our Second Amendment Rights. Selling of illegal weapons is bullshit and maybe that guy will get his just deserve. I would not feel one bit sorry for him if he gets busted and serves a little jail time.
View Quote
How? I mean unless you support gun control, and believe that a weapon should be 'illegal', why do you believe that selling 'illegal weapons' deserves jail time? Will you say the same thing when EVERY firearm is 'illegal'? hmm?
View Quote
Silence Do you think this guy should have sold that weapon with that configuration? Don't you think if the buyer was picked up with the weapon, and the weapon was linked back to this dealer. The anti-gunners / liberals would not feed from such a sale and try to use this as leverage to prove even with the gun laws in effect today the dealers are not complying thus we need stricter laws and more bans?
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Please pick up the clue phone. We are never going to win in public opinion, that tide is turned against us, and will never get any better than it is now. The only way to truly 'win' is to take this to the courts, and now.
The gun laws are in effect and there is nothing we can do about it. We can only hope and show our support the AWB is not reactivated so we may choose the configuration of the weapon we so desire.
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Err, nope, we can fight it. I guess you are one of the ones that would rather die on your knees.
Selling guns that is not legal to the criteria is bullshit and it only hurts the fight to have the AWB lifted.
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A temporary victory at best, but it is not a winning proposistion to simply let the AW ban expire, or to not renew it. Believe me it will come again. To deny that is to deny reality. T
The weapon was illegal in the configuration which it was sold, if we the gun owners do not follow these guide lines and show we are responsible in our purchases, thus following the bullshit guide lines that have been set in place by our governing body. We will not stand a chance it getting our rights back.
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Erm Bullshit, I guess England made it all legal for the Colonies to rebel too. Following unjust and illegal laws is WRONG.
The dealer who sold this weapon is no better than a piece of shit selling guns to gang bangers, convicted felons, or the common criminal element we have in our society.
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Maybe, but maybe not.
Yes I feel he would deserve jail time if caught for his actions.
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Thank you for the knife in the back of lady liberty, and the Constitution, and for spitting of the Graves of the Founders of this country.
One non honest gun dealer off the streets gives a better opportunity for an honest gun dealer to sell our beloved Firearms.
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Erm and when ALL firearms are outlawed piecemeal, there will be NO 'honest' dealers left. And doubt it not, by simply 'going along' with the assinine and bullshit laws you are supporting the ANTI's.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 6:29:39 PM EDT
I thought only US citizens could buy own and possess firearms on US soil...
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 6:33:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/17/2003 6:38:05 PM EDT by ShamusMcOI]
Originally Posted By Silence:
Originally Posted By neilfj: Its one thing to buy an illegally configured postban if as the buyer, you know it is illegal.
View Quote
ok
Its one thing to configure your own postban into an illegal configuration.
View Quote
Ok
It is a completely different thing to sell an illegal rifle to someone who doesn't know any better.
View Quote
Sorta
Both situation #1 & #2 you took the risk... you are responsible for your own actions. #3 is completely different. Here someone else is putting a newbie in a position to be busted for something he is completely unaware of.
View Quote
As I said before, Caveat Emptor. If you are not knowledgeable enough to know and understand the risks you are taking to do something (such as the 'sin' of buying an evil looking firearm) then MAYBE it is not something you should be doing.
Whether you think it is illegal/bad law/stupid..doesn't matter. What matters is some sleazy dealer sold an $800 rifle for $2100 and put the buyer in jeopardy of being arrested. These type dealers are the ones who should be turned in.
View Quote
I agree the dealer is a slimeball. But to 'turn in' somebody for the ignorance of others is wrong. If someone is willing to pay for something, and they are ignorant enough to not know the pertentinet laws and regulations then maybe they really shouldnt be buying that item. Ignorance of the Law is not an applicable defense. I mean what is the bloody difference (other than an assinine and unConstitutional law passed in 1934) between a 16in upper and a 11in upper? If you can trust someone to own a firearm, why not a short one? I mean some of you people saying 'that makes us look bad' are part of the problem. To the anti's even owning ANY firearm 'makes us look bad'. I mean really think about it. Will you claim that those that refuse to turn in their 'black rifles' when they are totally banned 'makes the rest of us lawful gunowners look bad'. It is horseshit. Either someone should be able to own firearms, of any make or model, or they shouldnt. And the only thing that should be used to judge whether or not they can is their own personal actions. And until enough people get the BALLs enough start the civil disobedience in regards to these unConstitutional laws then the ANTIs are winning, and you are CONTRIBUTING to the anti's winning.
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You do realize that AR15USA didn't call the BATF over to arrest the guy right? So what in your opinion is wrong with calling out a scumbag dealer who is trying to rip someone off? Does simply informing an unwitting customer make somebody a "narc"? Because the person is stupid enough to deserve it? Another bullshit response. So what you are basicly saying is that if somebody is that stupid, maybe they shouldn't even own guns? So are you implying that you should have an IQ of 140 and be able to pass a written test on current federal gun laws in order to purchase a firearm? When only scholars have guns.......
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 6:36:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Silence:Erm Bullshit, I guess England made it all legal for the Colonies to rebel too. Following unjust and illegal laws is WRONG.
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the guy wasn't rebelling against the gun laws, he was ripping someone off
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 6:39:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 9divdoc: I thought only US citizens could buy own and possess firearms on US soil...
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was the buyer a mexican, or was the part of the story about the mexicans just added descriptive detail?
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 6:43:30 PM EDT
Silence I don't know why you are trolling nor do I care. I have read your posts on several threads in the past and even agreed with you on a few, but on this subject I wished you would follow your username and SILENCE. The dealer is a piece of shit and he should not be allowed to sell any guns period. One more thing I am not arguing with you anymore it is apparent you are not thinking clearly and the bullshit you are typing is not making any sense. It sounds like you are for breaking the laws we are under at the present time. If you think I am against our Constitutional Rights for not caring if this dis-honest dealer gets jail time for being caught for his illegal activities, you sir are full of shit. AR15USA Again thanks for the story and sorry some folks want to turn this into trolling thread May 17 2003.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 6:49:37 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ShamusMcOI:
Originally Posted By Silence:
Originally Posted By neilfj: Its one thing to buy an illegally configured postban if as the buyer, you know it is illegal.
View Quote
ok
Its one thing to configure your own postban into an illegal configuration.
View Quote
Ok
It is a completely different thing to sell an illegal rifle to someone who doesn't know any better.
View Quote
Sorta
Both situation #1 & #2 you took the risk... you are responsible for your own actions. #3 is completely different. Here someone else is putting a newbie in a position to be busted for something he is completely unaware of.
View Quote
As I said before, Caveat Emptor. If you are not knowledgeable enough to know and understand the risks you are taking to do something (such as the 'sin' of buying an evil looking firearm) then MAYBE it is not something you should be doing.
Whether you think it is illegal/bad law/stupid..doesn't matter. What matters is some sleazy dealer sold an $800 rifle for $2100 and put the buyer in jeopardy of being arrested. These type dealers are the ones who should be turned in.
View Quote
I agree the dealer is a slimeball. But to 'turn in' somebody for the ignorance of others is wrong. If someone is willing to pay for something, and they are ignorant enough to not know the pertentinet laws and regulations then maybe they really shouldnt be buying that item. Ignorance of the Law is not an applicable defense. I mean what is the bloody difference (other than an assinine and unConstitutional law passed in 1934) between a 16in upper and a 11in upper? If you can trust someone to own a firearm, why not a short one? I mean some of you people saying 'that makes us look bad' are part of the problem. To the anti's even owning ANY firearm 'makes us look bad'. I mean really think about it. Will you claim that those that refuse to turn in their 'black rifles' when they are totally banned 'makes the rest of us lawful gunowners look bad'. It is horseshit. Either someone should be able to own firearms, of any make or model, or they shouldnt. And the only thing that should be used to judge whether or not they can is their own personal actions. And until enough people get the BALLs enough start the civil disobedience in regards to these unConstitutional laws then the ANTIs are winning, and you are CONTRIBUTING to the anti's winning.
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You do realize that AR15USA didn't call the BATF over to arrest the guy right?
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YEap, but I also see several other people saying that maybe he should have.
So what in your opinion is wrong with calling out a scumbag dealer who is trying to rip someone off? Does simply informing an unwitting customer make somebody a "narc"?
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Nothing wrong with informing the person the person of what is going on (that he is over paying for a gun, and that it is potenially illegal), that is the right thing to do. But to 'get pissed' about the behavior of others is not a productive thing to do. And from the story it seems that even after the buyer had been informed of what had happened he still had no complaints, then coming to a internet BB and whining about 'how this dealer was doing somethign illegal' is being a gunshow narc.
Because the person is stupid enough to deserve it? Another bullshit response. So what you are basicly saying is that if somebody is that stupid, maybe they shouldn't even own guns?
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Erm if you do know the difference between intelligence and ignorance? Ignorance has no bearing on your intelligence. Ignorance is LACK of knowledge, not lack of intelligence.
So are you implying that you should have an IQ of 140 and be able to pass a written test on current federal gun laws in order to purchase a firearm? When only scholars have guns.......
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Erm where did I say that? I simply said that if you are ignorant of the risks in doing something that maybe you should not be doing it, and that ignorance is no defense if you do something illegal. People have to have personal responsibility for their OWN actions, that includes being knowledgible enough to know the risks in doing those actions. If you are ignorant of the value of something and you overpay for it then that is YOUR fault. If you are ignorant of the laws and you do something illegal then you have to do the time, or be able to fight it on grounds other than ignorance.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 6:52:56 PM EDT
The dealer is a scumbag for he is either a crook or idiot! You did the right thing! Calling the BATF would have been a narc. Setting him straight was being a man.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 6:55:58 PM EDT
That dealer committed FRAUD, pure and simple. I was at that that show and saw those tables. They will never a get a dime of mine or anyone I know.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 6:58:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By nwatson99: It sounds like you are for breaking the laws we are under at the present time.
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Hallejuah!!!!! Somebody gets it. The only way to get what we want in the end is to no longer follow the unConstitutional laws that have been passed by congress, or state legislatures. For as the SCOTUS said in [i]Marbury[/i] any law, or action, repugnent to the Constitution is null and void from its inception, not from when the court hears it. If we as gun rights people are not willing to do like civil rights activists and walk down our own particular Birmingham Street, then we no longer deserve that right. I simply ask a question, are you willing to metaphorically brave the firehoses? the police Dogs? the Klan? or are you simply happy drinking out of the 'coloreds only' water foutain? My point is everytime you follow the illegal law you strengthen that law.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 6:59:37 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 7:14:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/17/2003 7:14:34 PM EDT by fight4yourrights]
How many people here have pulled the catalytic convertors off their cars? Many think the law is stupid, most of us comply anyway. What's the difference here? If you were in a car dealership and heard the dealer telling a buyer that the offroad only exhaust system w/no cats was legal, and the 200 watt headlights were legal, and removing the bumpers and taillights were legal, and the buyer could drive that car on the freeway, [b]would you just let the poor, ignorant buyer get taken?[/b] All because you don't agree with some of those laws?
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 7:26:02 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Silence:
Originally Posted By ShamusMcOI:
Originally Posted By Silence:
Originally Posted By neilfj: Its one thing to buy an illegally configured postban if as the buyer, you know it is illegal.
View Quote
ok
Its one thing to configure your own postban into an illegal configuration.
View Quote
Ok
It is a completely different thing to sell an illegal rifle to someone who doesn't know any better.
View Quote
Sorta
Both situation #1 & #2 you took the risk... you are responsible for your own actions. #3 is completely different. Here someone else is putting a newbie in a position to be busted for something he is completely unaware of.
View Quote
As I said before, Caveat Emptor. If you are not knowledgeable enough to know and understand the risks you are taking to do something (such as the 'sin' of buying an evil looking firearm) then MAYBE it is not something you should be doing.
Whether you think it is illegal/bad law/stupid..doesn't matter. What matters is some sleazy dealer sold an $800 rifle for $2100 and put the buyer in jeopardy of being arrested. These type dealers are the ones who should be turned in.
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I agree the dealer is a slimeball. But to 'turn in' somebody for the ignorance of others is wrong. If someone is willing to pay for something, and they are ignorant enough to not know the pertentinet laws and regulations then maybe they really shouldnt be buying that item. Ignorance of the Law is not an applicable defense. I mean what is the bloody difference (other than an assinine and unConstitutional law passed in 1934) between a 16in upper and a 11in upper? If you can trust someone to own a firearm, why not a short one? I mean some of you people saying 'that makes us look bad' are part of the problem. To the anti's even owning ANY firearm 'makes us look bad'. I mean really think about it. Will you claim that those that refuse to turn in their 'black rifles' when they are totally banned 'makes the rest of us lawful gunowners look bad'. It is horseshit. Either someone should be able to own firearms, of any make or model, or they shouldnt. And the only thing that should be used to judge whether or not they can is their own personal actions. And until enough people get the BALLs enough start the civil disobedience in regards to these unConstitutional laws then the ANTIs are winning, and you are CONTRIBUTING to the anti's winning.
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You do realize that AR15USA didn't call the BATF over to arrest the guy right?
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YEap, but I also see several other people saying that maybe he should have.
So what in your opinion is wrong with calling out a scumbag dealer who is trying to rip someone off? Does simply informing an unwitting customer make somebody a "narc"?
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Nothing wrong with informing the person the person of what is going on (that he is over paying for a gun, and that it is potenially illegal), that is the right thing to do. But to 'get pissed' about the behavior of others is not a productive thing to do. And from the story it seems that even after the buyer had been informed of what had happened he still had no complaints, then coming to a internet BB and whining about 'how this dealer was doing somethign illegal' is being a gunshow narc.
Because the person is stupid enough to deserve it? Another bullshit response. So what you are basicly saying is that if somebody is that stupid, maybe they shouldn't even own guns?
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Erm if you do know the difference between intelligence and ignorance? Ignorance has no bearing on your intelligence. Ignorance is LACK of knowledge, not lack of intelligence.
So are you implying that you should have an IQ of 140 and be able to pass a written test on current federal gun laws in order to purchase a firearm? When only scholars have guns.......
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Erm where did I say that? I simply said that if you are ignorant of the risks in doing something that maybe you should not be doing it, and that ignorance is no defense if you do something illegal. People have to have personal responsibility for their OWN actions, that includes being knowledgible enough to know the risks in doing those actions. If you are ignorant of the value of something and you overpay for it then that is YOUR fault. If you are ignorant of the laws and you do something illegal then you have to do the time, or be able to fight it on grounds other than ignorance.
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So at one point you are saying that the law is unjust, but then also say "if you do something illegal then you have to do the time". I don't understand what you are trying to get at here. And then you say that it was right for someone to tell somebody that what he was buying might not be legal. But then you state that you don't understand why somebody would be "pissed" about this. Well sorry, but when I see people acting like scumbags I get pissed. And you? Do you just sit back and watch while others get screwed? Obviously we agree that the law is unjust. Fine. But as far as your calling me on "ignorance" not being the lack of "intelligence"? Again, bullshit. Your comment that somebody who is buying a gun should know current gun laws is assinine, especially considering your statements about what bullshit those laws are. I'd wager to guess that you don't have this years current federal firearms codes memorized. Would I be correct in that assumption? By your own logic, car dealers should be able to sell us vehicles that don't meet inspection standards, and that it would be up to us to be subject to penalities for driving them? Sorry, but that doesn't hold water.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 7:30:44 PM EDT
Posted by Silence
Erm if you do know the difference between intelligence and ignorance? Ignorance has no bearing on your intelligence. [red]Ignorance is LACK of knowledge, not lack of intelligence.[/red]
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Correction sir, lack of knowledge [b]=[/b] lack of intelligence.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 7:33:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/17/2003 7:36:21 PM EDT by ShamusMcOI]
Originally Posted By fight4yourrights: How many people here have pulled the catalytic convertors off their cars? Many think the law is stupid, most of us comply anyway. What's the difference here? If you were in a car dealership and heard the dealer telling a buyer that the offroad only exhaust system w/no cats was legal, and the 200 watt headlights were legal, and removing the bumpers and taillights were legal, and the buyer could drive that car on the freeway, [b]would you just let the poor, ignorant buyer get taken?[/b] All because you don't agree with some of those laws?
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LOL! I thought my analogy was pretty good. Just to find out you had gotten to it before me. Brilliant minds think alike I guess huh? [:)]
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 7:37:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/17/2003 7:45:42 PM EDT by fight4yourrights]
Originally Posted By ShamusMcOI: Brilliant minds think alike I guess huh?
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Yep. I couldn't come up with more good examples, simply because I don't research all the automobile laws and regulations - I rely on the manufacturers and the dealers [b]selling me a LEGAL product[/b] I don't have time to look up every law before buying a car, a microwave, a house, a pool, or a blender. I have to rely on the selling establishment following the law. We all have to rely on that everyday, we couldn't function otherwise. There is a B I G difference between me yanking the catalytic convertors off my car and installing an off-road only system because I don't like the emission laws and the dealer and/or GM selling me a car with an illegal exhaust system.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 7:38:35 PM EDT
Posted by Shamus:
I'd wager to guess that you don't have this years current federal firearms codes memorized. Would I be correct in that assumption?
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Although almost impossible to do unless your a trial lawyer, you should atleast make an attempt to gain all the info you can before making a purchase of this sort. Remember, despite best intention's, [b]IGNORENCE IS NO EXCUSE FOR THE LAW[/b]. I do agree with everything AR15USA did at that time, standing by idlely while someone is being screwed (especially when the consiquences for said action are so damn high) is assinine! As far as dropping his name to the ATF well....
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 7:42:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ShamusMcOI: So at one point you are saying that the law is unjust, but then also say "if you do something illegal then you have to do the time".
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You left off the next part, you now the part where I said 'or be able to fight it on grounds other than ignorance'. Again Ignorance of the law is not a defense. If you are doing somethign that might convievably place you in jeapardy then it might serve you well to take the time to learn what that jeapardy is. Ignorance may be bliss, but it is not smart.
I don't understand what you are trying to get at here.
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And you probably never will
And then you say that it was right for someone to tell somebody that what he was buying might not be legal. But then you state that you don't understand why somebody would be "pissed" about this.
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Sure, you can inform people of what is going on, and attempt to remedy their ignorance - That is a good thing. But to then make an emotional investment in the situation that is in reality between two other people and the government is silly.
Well sorry, but when I see people acting like scumbags I get pissed. And you? Do you just sit back and watch while others get screwed?
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I will attempt to remedy their ignorance, but if they then willfully get screwed that is their fault and their own responsibility.
Obviously we agree that the law is unjust. Fine. But as far as your calling me on "ignorance" not being the lack of "intelligence"? Again, bullshit.
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why? you equated 'ignorance' to a lack of intellegence, when in truth they are two totally different things.
Your comment that somebody who is buying a gun should know current gun laws is assinine, especially considering your statements about what bullshit those laws are. I'd wager to guess that you don't have this years current federal firearms codes memorized. Would I be correct in that assumption?
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The entire code? nope, but I have enough of it to know what is legal and illegal along a fairly broad scope, granted if I was to want to find out the legality of something like modifications on an SKS I might have to consult outside sources as to the 'legality' (if you choose to follow unConstitutional laws).
By your own logic, car dealers should be able to sell us vehicles that don't meet inspection standards, and that it would be up to us to be subject to penalities for driving them? Sorry, but that doesn't hold water.
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If you are ignorant enough to buy a car that cannot meet the standards as required by your state to be legal on public roads then I guess you deserve to be stuck with the costs involved. You are in the end responsible for your own actions.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 7:44:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Silence: If you are ignorant enough to buy a car that cannot meet the standards as required by your state to be legal on public roads then I guess you deserve to be stuck with the costs involved. You are in the end responsible for your own actions.
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Not 100% true. I once bought a used car that had fairly bald rear tires. I didn't mind, since I would just spin off the rest and replace them anyway (Corvette). Well it turns out the dealership was breaking the LAW. The tires were under the legal limit and wouldn't pass inspection. If I had refused their offer of new tires, they could have gotten in BIG trouble - lost their license, the whole works. I took the free new tires.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 7:45:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By fight4yourrights: I rely on the manufacturers and the dealers [b]selling me a LEGAL product[/b]
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Then you are a fool. The only person you should rely on to make sure what you are doing is legal is yourself, and your attorney. NEVER rely upon the benevolence of others where your ass is concerned.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 7:45:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:
Originally Posted By ShamusMcOI: Brilliant minds think alike I guess huh?
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Yep. I couldn't come up with more good examples, simply because I don't research all the automobile laws and regulations - I rely on the manufacturers and the dealers [b]selling me a LEGAL product[/b] I don't have time to look up every law before buying a car, a microwave, a house, a pool, or a blender. [red]I have to rely on the selling establishment following the law. We all have to rely on that everyday[/red], we couldn't function otherwise.
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Indeed I would sure like to believe that every company does their best to stay within the law concerning their product's, but, on a specialty item such as weapon's common sense [s]would[/s] should dictate that you do all you can not to get in trouble with the law while you have said items in your possesion. Again, yes it's impossible to know every gun law, that's no excuse not to learn the basic ones (barrel length, no flash hider, semi-auto vs full auto, ect.).
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 7:46:51 PM EDT
What an ass. Those are the kinda people that are gonna flush this whole deal down the toilet for the rest of us. I'm glad you spoke up. Those type a people are worthless,not only out right lying and ripping people off,but no reguard for legality or the buyers right too purchase a legal weapon.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 7:50:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/17/2003 7:52:07 PM EDT by fight4yourrights]
Originally Posted By Silence:
Originally Posted By fight4yourrights: I rely on the manufacturers and the dealers [b]selling me a LEGAL product[/b]
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Then you are a fool. The only person you should rely on to make sure what you are doing is legal is yourself, and your attorney. NEVER rely upon the benevolence of others where your ass is concerned.
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Oh come on now, do you call your attorney to check the legality of using bug killer around your yard? Do you call the attorney to see if it's legal to recoat your driveway? Did you study all the local building codes before you bought your house, to ensure you were obeying every law? PLEASE. We all have to trust others to some extent. It's impossible to know all the laws. I do check up on what I can, especially gun laws. Just today I had to pass on buying my wife a stun gun, until I could check on the laws governing their use and possession in Maryland. I don't take everyone's word blindly, but you are the fool if you think you are checking out the legalities of everything you do ahead of time. ... and lawyers only give educated [i]OPINIONS[/i]. After all, the law is open to interpretation.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 7:50:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By David_Hineline: While you were snooping, did you see the buyer do a 4473 yellow sheet? Perhaps it was a private sale? Perhaps the seller knew the buyer could not legally own the rifle so it did not matter to him what configuration it was in. Perhaps the rifle is already out of this country gone south and so compliance with US laws means little. Perhaps the buyer knows he can not get a gun to defend his life in his own country and he was glad to pay any price for what he thought he might need back on the hacienda for personal protection and was glad to have someone willing to help him defend himself and his family. Perhaps things more important to him that compliance with US law were in play here. If you have ever bought a used firearm personal or from a dealer did you run right down yourself and have the gun;s numbers ran with the police to see if it was ever a stolen gun. If you did not you could be in possesion of a stolen weapon. Shame Shame for receiving stolen goods. No one likes a tattletale.
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Maybe your scenarios are correct. Maybe they're not. Maybe it was a scumbag dealer trying to rip someone off, what then? But in the end, as long as no agencies were brought in, it's pretty much no harm no foul right? Sounds like it was a case of trying to be informative, not of being a tattletale. And just so the record is straight, I am AGAINST going to the feds on this kind of stuff. When it happened to me, I dealt with it like a man instead of going to the cops. And after doing some detective work and tracking the guy down, the fuckwad made it right.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 7:50:18 PM EDT
If someone is "Stuck" with a car, they have the option of getting their money back through the Lemon law. There is no Lemon law for bs FFl holders who rip people off. Too bad though.... I would be happier today if there were, from my early purchasing days.
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