Posted: 8/23/2002 6:12:17 PM EDT
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(By Riad Saloojee, Ottawa Citizen, 8/15/02) Last Friday was sweltering. And the emotional index in the mosque raised the thermometer considerably. The congregation was asked to reflect on an Aug. 8 Citizen editorial provocatively entitled Attacking 'infidels': Terrorists target the West for only one reason: its religious values. The Ottawa Muslims present felt palpably disgusted by the piece, a gut reaction that the Citizen was defaming Islam. The buried subtext, they felt, was the suggestion that Islam condoned the killing of "infidels..." Still, the assertion that terrorists attack the West because of its "Christian values" is simplistic. They justify their immoral attacks by a host of false premises: religious, political, historical and others. And the rhetoric of the editorial simply resurrects the rather apocalyptic idea of a clash of civilizations or, if you believe the Citizen's claim that the West equals Christianity, a clash of religions... The Citizen editorial founders on self-contradiction. The article cites both the example of extremists slitting the throats of more than 400 people in Algeria at the end of the Ramadan fast and the recent attack on the World Trade Center to "prove" that extremists kill Christians because they are Christians. In both examples, however, Muslims were among those killed; in the Algerian case, the extremists killed their fellow compatriots and in the attack on the U.S., many Muslims were among those killed... These omissions are significant. The simple fact that the KKK wore crosses while terrorizing and killing African-Americans or that the South African government frequently justified apartheid by biblical scripture has no more relevance to Christianity than these extremists have to Islam... Riad Saloojee is executive director of the Council on American-Islamic Relations, Canada. |
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This topic has been done to death. At its core, its a very simple issue - almost exclusively Arab peoples, under the guise of the Islaamic religion, killed 3,000 of my countrymen. Sorry, but its up to THEM to convince me they ain't the enemy. There's no middle ground. Now, I'm open to the possibility that they are nice,well-meaning people who have no ill intent to my nation, but THEY have to make that case. |
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[b]Matrix[/b], I responded to one of your many spamming, trolling, CAIR-defending scat piles you dropped on this board with the following REASONABLE reply: [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=141006[/url] [b]Matrix[/b], I have nothing against any individual Muslim I have ever met - and I've worked closely with many in my profession, and still do. I've yet to meet a man or woman of the Islamic faith that I did not get along with - at least in a civil and polite working relationship. I never found any of my colleages to be outwardly anti-American, radical or hateful, though they were certainly proud of their heritage (which is fine with me). Having said that, I DO have a major burning hatred for the "MoslemMaggots" and their domestic supporters that are waging war against our culture and our nation right now. CAIR is not merely an "advocacy" group for Muslims, IMO they are a tool or shield being used by radical MoslemMaggots within our borders to continue their multi-front war against us - much like Calypso Louie and the Nation of Islam. I don't seek to convince you, only respond to you. You'll get no sympathy from me for what CAIR says is a growing backlash against Muslims in America. Frankly, I have YET to see ANY major instance (and heaven forbid it be a pattern) where large numbers of Muslim Americans protested against THEIR OWN RADICAL ELEMENTS in this country or abroad who cheered on 9-11 or who marched on Washington recently. I saw no ORGANIZED outpouring of condemnation from the Muslim community about the attacks against us by the MoslemMaggots from Al Qaeda. Oh sure, individually my Muslim friends were very disturbed and shocked (in all honestly) by the attacks on the WTC and Pentagon. But organizations like CAIR were essentially silent at a time when they should have been the [b]LOUDEST[/b] ones screaming in anger non-stop that such a hideous, cowardly massacre of 3,000 innocent American civilians was done in the name of THEIR religion by a bunch of inhuman savages who were well-funded, well-trained, well-supported and literally cheered-on by millions of fellow MoslemMaggots throughout the Arab world. No. We are at war with millions of Muslims throughout the world and many thousands of sleepers inside our borders, living in our neighborhoods and probably working right alongside us. It is never good that innocent civilians are killed for the actions of those who wage war, but I have a VERY hard time feeling any sympathy for the Muslim community because of their utter SILENCE in what should be their greatest moment to stand up and save their religion from the millions of savage, inhuman monsters around the world who've hijacked it to wage war against Western Civilization and who will ultimately turn much of the Islamic world into every other object they've ever hijacked - nothing but a fiery mass of wreckage and death. Based on your lack of engagement in DISCUSSING the crap you continue drop here (not just with me but most reasonable replies go unanswered by you) it's obvious you don't seem to WANT to engage in discussions here. |
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So to expand on what [b]Spectre[/b] asked... With all of the industrious, hard-working, intelligent, well-funded people around the planet - I'd expect the Moslems would have surpassed Western Civilization by now. With all the rich, untapped natural resources and minerals of Indonesia and African nations, the petroleum reserves and astounding wealth of the Arab MidEast nations, and the energetic, enterprising multitudes of Moslems around the world - by now, the "Islamic World" should have made incredible technological, biomedical, agricultural and economic advances that make us Westerners look like the tiny minority population that we are on this planet. And what has a billion people (scattered across many Moslem nations) and their astonishing concentrations of wealth (in the hands of a just a few Moslem nations) produced in, say, the last thousand years???? What miraculous medical advancements were entirely funded by those benevolent, wise and filthy-rich Moslem Kings? What technological breakthroughs in materials science have come from all those world class Moslem research institutions throughout the Arab world? What great advances in political or economic theory has been put forth in the last millenia by the many brilliant thinkers of the Moslem world? What ingenious agricultural advancements have been developed by the rich Moslem nations to supply more food to the poor Moslem nations? Just what the f*@k has a billion Moslem people done for the advancement of all humanity? The Moslem nations of the world have vast natural resources, incredible wealth and billions of industrious people needed to do great things. But they don't. Why? |
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Quoted: So to expand on what [b]Spectre[/b] asked... What technological breakthroughs in materials science have come from all those world class Moslem research institutions throughout the Arab world? Didn't we borrow our numerical system from some folks over that way ?? |
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"Islam is a highly aggressive inculcated obsessive delusional psychosis that has been on a run amok submit-or-be-killed crusade on and off for over a thousand years. It is a delusional system that is defended with an indignation subjectively justifying violence against the non-delusional world." -- Robert L. Kocher |
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Matrix with all due respect, Until this war is over and every militant islamist is dead nothing you post here will convince me Islam has any redeaming value. Every religion has it's fanatics and problems. Yours just seems to be a royal pain in the ass to every place on the planet. |
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Bring on the last Crusade. The goal of the Muslim world is dominance of their religion over all others. I hope one day my children can only read about what a muslim was. I even doubt that enlightening that region would help. Call me racist, I hate Arabs. American muslims are increasingly on my shitlist as well. They've done nothing but throw another wrench into the multicultural PC debate. They do have plan, they do have a goal and you and I are not part of it. |
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Quoted: Quoted: So to expand on what [b]Spectre[/b] asked... What technological breakthroughs in materials science have come from all those world class Moslem research institutions throughout the Arab world? Didn't we borrow our numerical system from some folks over that way ?? Okay, so that was around 2000 B.C. "And what has a billion people (scattered across many Moslem nations) and their astonishing concentrations of wealth (in the hands of a just a few Moslem nations) produced in, say, [red]the last thousand years[/red]???? "What have you done for me lately?" [:D] |
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Quoted: Matrix with all due respect, Until this war is over and every militant islamist is dead nothing you post here will convince me Islam has any redeaming value. Every religion has it's fanatics and problems. Yours just seems to be a royal pain in the ass to every place on the planet. Well said, sir! Brilliant! |
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Am I reading this wrong. I think Matrix is saying HE IS AGAINST TERRORISM. That the religion is not the terrorist, but the fanatics are. Yes hatred is growing in this world. If you take the remarks made lately here you could see that. Do we has Americans hate Islam, or do we hate only the people who condone the use of terrorism within the Islam Nation. We all need to get a grip on things. We are going to be the end of human life if this keeps up. I know every religion has a way of interjecting their beliefs for good or evil. The fight between Islam and Christianity goes back to the Crusades. This is where the grudge comes from. It has been sent from generation to generation. It has festered into such a hatred for Christians. Now we fester a hatred for Muslims and it will go on and on until someone is defeated. That my friend will be the whole human race. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: So to expand on what [b]Spectre[/b] asked... What technological breakthroughs in materials science have come from all those world class Moslem research institutions throughout the Arab world? Didn't we borrow our numerical system from some folks over that way ?? Okay, so that was around 2000 B.C. "And what has a billion people (scattered across many Moslem nations) and their astonishing concentrations of wealth (in the hands of a just a few Moslem nations) produced in, say, [red]the last thousand years[/red]???? "What have you done for me lately?" [:D] Oil production ?? (Will you buy oil production ??) |
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Quoted: I'm certainly no expert on religions of the world, but from the bit I've observed, defaming Islam is like defaming NAMBLA. Just where would you start? NAMBLA? You should start by defaming the Catholic Church and all of their child molesting representatives (priests). Not to mention their ties with the Irish Republican Army terrorists. Nuke the Vatican. Then there are the Christians who have never held a press conference to denounce the actions of Christian Identity/KKK/Aryan Nations or abortion clinic terrorists. Nuke them too. See how easy it is? Just use the extreme examples of any religion and apply it to the entire population of members. Gee, the NRA and its members experience this all of the time. Why didn't YOU gun owners come out and hold a press conference denouncing the shootings at Colubine or Stockton? You must like seeing people killed because of your silence. How many people here PERSONALLY know anyone of the Islamic religion? I am not talking about anecdotes about people that you assumed were muslim. I happen to know 2. One has owned a gun store for over 5 years and neither of them even come remotely close to the prejudice I see running rampant here. |
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Quoted: Quoted: I'm certainly no expert on religions of the world, but from the bit I've observed, defaming Islam is like defaming NAMBLA. Just where would you start? NAMBLA? You should start by defaming the Catholic Church and all of their child molesting representatives (priests). Not to mention their ties with the Irish Republican Army terrorists. Nuke the Vatican. Then there are the Christians who have never held a press conference to denounce the actions of Christian Identity/KKK/Aryan Nations or abortion clinic terrorists. Nuke them too. See how easy it is? Just use the extreme examples of any religion and apply it to the entire population of members. Gee, the NRA and its members experience this all of the time. Why didn't YOU gun owners come out and hold a press conference denouncing the shootings at Colubine or Stockton? You must like seeing people killed because of your silence. How many people here PERSONALLY know anyone of the Islamic religion? I am not talking about anecdotes about people that you assumed were muslim. I happen to know 2. One has owned a gun store for over 5 years and neither of them even come remotely close to the prejudice I see running rampant here. Imbroglios words needed to be said again. |
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Quoted: Quoted: "And what has a billion people (scattered across many Moslem nations) and their astonishing concentrations of wealth (in the hands of a just a few Moslem nations) produced in, say, [red]the last thousand years[/red]???? "What have you done for me lately?" [:D] Oil production ?? (Will you buy oil production ??) Americans developed that. Standard Oil (John D. Rockefeller) discovered the oil under Saudi Arabia in 1936 - which until then was a dirt-poor, desolate region of nomads. American innovation discovered the oil and designed and built the refineries, the Arabs stood and watched (counting their money). |
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Quoted: Quoted: I'm certainly no expert on religions of the world, but from the bit I've observed, defaming Islam is like defaming NAMBLA. Just where would you start? NAMBLA? You should start by defaming the Catholic Church and all of their child molesting representatives (priests). Not to mention their ties with the Irish Republican Army terrorists. Nuke the Vatican. Then there are the Christians who have never held a press conference to denounce the actions of Christian Identity/KKK/Aryan Nations or abortion clinic terrorists. Nuke them too. See how easy it is? Just use the extreme examples of any religion and apply it to the entire population of members. Gee, the NRA and its members experience this all of the time. Why didn't YOU gun owners come out and hold a press conference denouncing the shootings at Colubine or Stockton? You must like seeing people killed because of your silence. How many people here PERSONALLY know anyone of the Islamic religion? I am not talking about anecdotes about people that you assumed were muslim. I happen to know 2. One has owned a gun store for over 5 years and neither of them even come remotely close to the prejudice I see running rampant here. Congratulations Imbroglio. You are the first among those I will loosely call "Islam Defenders" (best term I could come up with in a pinch, so don't hold me to it too bad) to present a reasonable rebuttal to the "silence of the masses" argument that even I have used. While I may not agree with you on the face of it, I admire the comeback. Be careful accusing people of prejudice. You'll note that no one here is slamming them because they are Arab or because they are Muslim. They are slamming because it is Arabs and Muslims who attacked us and who continue to threaten us. The slamming is predicated on the attacks and threats. I can assure you if it had been a bunch of Budhist monks who attacked us on 9/11, the words "Arab" and "Muslim" would scarcly be getting used on this board. Instead.... well, you know the phrases that would be flying. True racists are few and far between. They make such a splash because they are outrageous and because society tends to attack real racism quite aggressivly (thankfully and despite what JJ says). As such, understand that the hatred you see here is aimed at those who perpetrated the attacks and those who seem to shelter them (which seems to be the overwhelming majority of them). They are NOT hated SIMPLY because they are Arab or Muslim. Any nay-sayers who hate them just for that are free to speak up.... BTW, I know several Arabs (10+), and several of them are quite upstanding. However, I know they put their religion before their country, and as such, I don't trust them as well as I used to. Am I painting with a broad brush? Maybe. But I can't help but remember one saying horrible things about Jews... ... and he's the NICEST one amongst them! |
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Quoted: Congratulations Imbroglio. You are the first among those I will loosely call "Islam Defenders" Imbroglio doesn't ACTUALLY give two shits about Islam...he's only defending them because it is a Pavlovian instinct for him to oppose ANYTHING done by the US government. |
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Quoted: BTW, I know several Arabs (10+), and several of them are quite upstanding. However, I know they put their religion before their country, and as such, I don't trust them as well as I used to. Am I painting with a broad brush? Maybe. But I can't help but remember one saying horrible things about Jews... ... and he's the NICEST one amongst them! Let me assure you that they wouldn't be the only group Americans who would put their religion before this country, but that is another subject. Just to make my point clear, I am defending AMERICANS who are Islamic and only "crime", as some here believe, is belonging to the "wrong" religion. |
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Quoted: NAMBLA? You should start by defaming the Catholic Church and all of their child molesting representatives (priests). Not to mention their ties with the Irish Republican Army terrorists. Nuke the Vatican. Hey, let's nuke the every Elementary school who ever housed a pedophile and didn't properly screen or investigate allegations too! Quoted: Then there are the Christians who have never held a press conference to denounce the actions of Christian Identity/KKK/Aryan Nations or abortion clinic terrorists. Nuke them too. Have you ever protested when the Klan or Aryan Nation march down mainstreet?? Do you think that the THOUSANDS of anti-Klan protesters that always show up to shout down the dozen or so skinheads are all athiests? No, they're MOSTLY Christians (white and black). We don't need fucking news conferences to oppose the Klan - that's for egocentric, showboating dumbshits - but I guess that's what appeals to you. |
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Quoted: See how easy it is? Just use the extreme examples of any religion and apply it to the entire population of members. Gee, the NRA and its members experience this all of the time. Why didn't YOU gun owners come out and hold a press conference denouncing the shootings at Colubine or Stockton? You must like seeing people killed because of your silence. Harris and Kleibold didn't massacre kids in the name of the NRA or RKBA. Try - REEEEEALLY try to use some common sense here. Quoted: How many people here PERSONALLY know anyone of the Islamic religion? I am not talking about anecdotes about people that you assumed were muslim. I happen to know 2. One has owned a gun store for over 5 years and neither of them even come remotely close to the prejudice I see running rampant here. I've worked with and collaborated closely with a dozen or so Muslim/Arab colleages over the years. They are good friends. We regularly socialize together, dinners etc. They are polite, civil and intelligent. I have nothing against them. But I STILL advocate the extermination the "MoslemMaggots" who advocate the homicide-bombing of Israeli toddlers, cut the heads off American journalists for thrills, slit the throats of stewardesses (after tying them up first), drive jet airliners into skyscrapers filled with innocent civilians, treat women as chattle and plot to overthrow Western Civilization. Oh yeah, they never bathe either. Not all Muslims are "MoslemMaggots", thank God. |