[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Wounded Knee (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 12/4/2011 5:50:43 PM EDT
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If there's one group in this country that I have sympathy for it's the Indians. They got a short stick and there's no two ways about it. Now, I'm not going to give them their land back, but I recognize that the US did some shitty things to take it from them. Anywho... So I was watching this think on PBS about Wounded Knee. You know, I can't say as I blame them, in fact, I think it took some big brass balls. They were getting shit on by the government and by the tribal government at the time, they felt they had no alternative and so they grabbed up their guns and told Uncle Sam to come and get 'em. I'm sorry that people got killed over it, but it did have a long term impact by making people aware of what was going on with the Indians and sparked sort of revival of Indian culture. So I say good for the Indians. |
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There were atrocities done by BOTH sides in the plains indian wars of the late 1800s.
Yes, there were injustices done by white men against native Americans. And, there were also injustices done by native Americans against whites (especially settlers on the plains). The truth is not as simple as liberals have been painting it for years. |
| It didn't bother them when they gave other tribes a shitty stick so I'm not going to wring my hands over any of it. Some tribes were wiped out before the white man ever got here so what do we make the indians do? There never was such a thing as the noble red man so let's not kid ourselves. We don't need to get played another unwarranted guilt trip. |
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It didn't bother them when they gave other tribes a shitty stick so I'm not going to wring my hands over any of it. Some tribes were wiped out before the white man ever got here so what do we make the indians do? There never was such a thing as the noble red man so let's not kid ourselves. We don't need to get played another unwarranted guilt trip. Well said. |
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The natives are lucky that so much of their culture managed to survive the effort of Anericans to exterminate them. They are their own subsidized nation and have many more perks than the average American.
That being said, I have lived twenty years adjacent the Colville Confederated Tribes and basically, these folks are mucked up. Many good folks, mostly older, but the young are basket cases .If their young are their future, them mr heroin and mr alcohol will make it no more. |
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Quoted: Just to be clear, you are obviously talking about the AIM idiots in the 1970s, and not the Souix in the 1870s Well, both. The Souix got butchered there for no reason at all (party of that shitty deal from Uncle Sam) and then AIM went up there when the Lakota were getting fucked over by the Indian Council leader and couldn't get rid of the guy. The Indians had legitimate gripes, unlike the other militants of the day. |
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Quoted: Read the book 1491 by Mann if you want to learn how little you really know about how things were before Columbus got here. If you're comfortable with your illusions, stay way the hell away from that book. I know about how the Indians all up and down North and South America treated each other. |
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Read the book 1491 by Mann if you want to learn how little you really know about how things were before Columbus got here. If you're comfortable with your illusions, stay way the hell away from that book. He is correct that by our standards, yeah, they got a shitty deal. You don't really talk to a group of Indians in 1865 and say, hey, at least it's not 1491! I mean, that's the equivalent of blacks demanding reparations now- our ancestors had it shitty, so we should get handouts- except, in this case, you're telling them that their ancestors were dickbags and things are somewhat better now, but we're going to oppress the fuck out of you. That said, I don't have a lot of sympathy for them for the reasoning that, before the revolution, during colonization, and for a good while after the Indians and the Indian territories were damned dangerous places to be. That doesn't excuse many of the injustices practiced against Indians who weren't part of that, however. |
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With some notable exceptions, we treated them the same way they treated each other. We just had more people and better equipment. It's sort of how the world has always worked.
Read up on some of disgusting stuff indians did to white people for having the audacity of rowing down rivers and what not. *This depends upon the specific tribe and region, of course, but on the average it is a true statement. |
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It didn't bother them when they gave other tribes a shitty stick so I'm not going to wring my hands over any of it. Some tribes were wiped out before the white man ever got here so what do we make the indians do? There never was such a thing as the noble red man so let's not kid ourselves. We don't need to get played another unwarranted guilt trip. This how history will record the events once the 1970's BS is put into prospective. The mobility brought to the Indians when the Spanish introduced horses into the Americas is what changed Indian cultures. |
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We don't need to get played another unwarranted guilt trip. I didn't say I felt guilty or that anyone else should feel guilty. I just said that the Indians got a shitty deal from Uncle Sam, and they did. That point can't be disputed. So they got screwed. Do you want to throw a pity party or something? It is nice that you noticed the historical obvious. The Normans gave the Saxons the stick, the Huns crapped on Rome, Rome crapped on the Carthaginians, and Persia got crapped on by the Greeks. That is what happens when a society gets weak and behind the technology curve. It will probably happen to us unless we wise up. |
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Read the book 1491 by Mann if you want to learn how little you really know about how things were before Columbus got here. If you're comfortable with your illusions, stay way the hell away from that book. I know about how the Indians all up and down North and South America treated each other. Read That Dark and Bloody River by Allen Eckert. Better yet, delve into the Draper Manuscripts that are available online. |
| I don't see a problem with Steve's post. Yeah, that's the way the world has always worked for the most part - doesn't make it right. I imagine if we got stomped and treated the same way not many here would say "well, that's how society works". I think we would be looking for a way to even the score. I don't feel responsible for what my ancestors did, nor do I hold anyone else responsible for what theirs did. Now is now. Let all be held accountable for what they themselves do. |
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It didn't bother them when they gave other tribes a shitty stick so I'm not going to wring my hands over any of it. Some tribes were wiped out before the white man ever got here so what do we make the indians do? There never was such a thing as the noble red man so let's not kid ourselves. We don't need to get played another unwarranted guilt trip. Exactly... - georgestrings |
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Quoted: Quoted: Just to be clear, you are obviously talking about the AIM idiots in the 1970s, and not the Souix in the 1870s Well, both. The Souix got butchered there for no reason at all (party of that shitty deal from Uncle Sam) and then AIM went up there when the Lakota were getting fucked over by the Indian Council leader and couldn't get rid of the guy. The Indians had legitimate gripes, unlike the other militants of the day. You realize that the AIM contingent pretty much fucked over the families that actually lived in Wounded Knee, right? |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: We don't need to get played another unwarranted guilt trip. I didn't say I felt guilty or that anyone else should feel guilty. I just said that the Indians got a shitty deal from Uncle Sam, and they did. That point can't be disputed. So they got screwed. Do you want to throw a pity party or something? It is nice that you noticed the historical obvious. The Normans gave the Saxons the stick, the Huns crapped on Rome, Rome crapped on the Carthaginians, and Persia got crapped on by the Greeks. That is what happens when a society gets weak and behind the technology curve. It will probably happen to us unless we wise up. Boy, you're all pissed off over this eh? If you want to just brush it off then be my guest. I think the Indians got fucked, and I'll say they got fucked if that's what I think. Not just because I watched this TV show, not just because of what I've learned in history class, not just because of what I've read, but the combination, along with some personal experience with Indians. If you don't like my opinion then go somewhere else. There is nothing I value more though than my right to express my opinion so don't think I'll just shut up and go away. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Just to be clear, you are obviously talking about the AIM idiots in the 1970s, and not the Souix in the 1870s Well, both. The Souix got butchered there for no reason at all (party of that shitty deal from Uncle Sam) and then AIM went up there when the Lakota were getting fucked over by the Indian Council leader and couldn't get rid of the guy. The Indians had legitimate gripes, unlike the other militants of the day. You realize that the AIM contingent pretty much fucked over the families that actually lived in Wounded Knee, right? Yeah, but I also know that they refused to leave when they were "set free" because they were afraid the government would go in and kill the AIM guys who had occupied Wounded Knee. |
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Read the book 1491 by Mann if you want to learn how little you really know about how things were before Columbus got here. If you're comfortable with your illusions, stay way the hell away from that book. I know about how the Indians all up and down North and South America treated each other. Read the book. You'll learn some things that largely augment your point of view. The pre-Columbia Americas were nothing like what you were likely taught in high school. |
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Quoted:
There were atrocities done by BOTH sides in the plains indian wars of the late 1800s. Yes, there were injustices done by white men against native Americans. And, there were also injustices done by native Americans against whites (especially settlers on the plains). The truth is not as simple as liberals have been painting it for years. Exactly this ! |
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We don't need to get played another unwarranted guilt trip. I didn't say I felt guilty or that anyone else should feel guilty. I just said that the Indians got a shitty deal from Uncle Sam, and they did. That point can't be disputed. Crows and Pawnee, for example, didn't get a better deal from Lakotas when they were pushed west... The law of of the stronger.. They suffered it.. Sure, but they also did use it... |
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We don't need to get played another unwarranted guilt trip. I didn't say I felt guilty or that anyone else should feel guilty. I just said that the Indians got a shitty deal from Uncle Sam, and they did. That point can't be disputed. So they got screwed. Do you want to throw a pity party or something? It is nice that you noticed the historical obvious. The Normans gave the Saxons the stick, the Huns crapped on Rome, Rome crapped on the Carthaginians, and Persia got crapped on by the Greeks. That is what happens when a society gets weak and behind the technology curve. It will probably happen to us unless we wise up. This. Edit to add: There is always one group of people that gets fucked over by another group of people. Don't make it right...but its a fact of life. |
| If you feel badly stop reading books, move to the rez and make a difference by starting a business and hiring local people. There are good people who live on the 7 reservations in South Dakota. What they need are jobs that pay a living wage, a skill that they can translate into a better life for themselves and their families, and a means to break the cycle of substance abuse, addiction, and early death. If you think a 8 or 9% unemployment rate is bad look at the rate on the reservations. It is well over that and rising every day. No job, no hope for a job and a government check every month lends itself to hopelessness and a sense of despair. Couple that with access to drugs, alcohol, physical, emotional and sexual abuse of children and females and you've got a powder keg waiting to blow. The poorest county in the nation is in South Dakota (Shannon) and has been for many years. We have a Native American Day (instead of Columbus Day), have had it for over 15 years and nothing ever changes except the date on the calendar. Its a sad commentary on our state, our people and our country but the best and brightest on the reservation feel bound to return and make it better for their families, unfortunately there aren't enough opportunities and very little start up capital to begin a business. |
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Quoted: If you feel badly stop reading books, move to the rez and make a difference by starting a business and hiring local people. There are good people who live on the 7 reservations in South Dakota. What they need are jobs that pay a living wage, a skill that they can translate into a better life for themselves and their families, and a means to break the cycle of substance abuse, addiction, and early death. If you think a 8 or 9% unemployment rate is bad look at the rate on the reservations. It is well over that and rising every day. No job, no hope for a job and a government check every month lends itself to hopelessness and a sense of despair. Couple that with access to drugs, alcohol, physical, emotional and sexual abuse of children and females and you've got a powder keg waiting to blow. The poorest county in the nation is in South Dakota (Shannon) and has been for many years. We have a Native American Day (instead of Columbus Day), have had it for over 15 years and nothing ever changes except the date on the calendar. Its a sad commentary on our state, our people and our country but the best and brightest on the reservation feel bound to return and make it better for their families, unfortunately there aren't enough opportunities and very little start up capital to begin a business. Your post pretty much nailed everything. If they want change, it must come from within. They need leaders of their own to be an example to the young kids and teach them the dangers of substance abuse and the gang lifestyle . I've lived there and have come to know Lakota on Pine Ridge and Rosebud intimately. Their problems are complicated and immense, no easy answers. |
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So why is it such a tragedy that European settlers were more efficient at doing what the tribes had been doing to each other for centuries?
Do you think the Lakota just walked onto the plains with no other tribes around? Read a little history of the eastern Indians and how the Mohawk found that slowly roasting a captive to death made for a real party. |