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Posted: 4/21/2001 9:05:38 PM EDT
If they were trying to disarm me they wouldn't be *my* troops, would they?
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Posted: 4/21/2001 9:06:44 PM EDT
Only the bad ones
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Posted: 4/21/2001 9:07:50 PM EDT
In this scenario, you just might have troops firing on their own leadership.
"I knew we shouldn't have killed Lt. Nedermyer." |
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Posted: 4/21/2001 9:09:31 PM EDT
C'mon, no word games.
Please answer the question.(s) |
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Posted: 4/21/2001 9:10:03 PM EDT
true, but it still might be hard. any real troops wouldnt obay those orders. the troops left would be young kids. i know a lot of young people in the army national guard and resrerve. thye are kids not really in it for anything. they would be easy targets, and put up a poor defense. but if they are ganna take my guns i would shoot. im just saying it would probaly bother me the rest of my life, unlike shooting an intruder or enemy national
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Posted: 4/21/2001 9:16:44 PM EDT
It's not word games. If they are coming to take my guns they are my enemy and I will shoot them. Simple.
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Posted: 4/21/2001 9:17:15 PM EDT
I doubt it will ever happen so blatantly. Most likely it will be very subtly done, so much so, that gunowners such as hunters or skeet-shooting types will come out in favor of it, just to save their own skins and be respectable, and will probably be the ones that rat you out. But if it does come to a situation as you envisage, all I can hope for is that some clear-thinking GI will fire a warning shot into the back of his/her officer who is in charge of the disarmament operation......
I will not say in cyber-print what I will do. |
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Posted: 4/21/2001 9:21:47 PM EDT
Ratters,
What about those troops "standing by"? |
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Posted: 4/21/2001 9:23:13 PM EDT
yes with out any thought... would us troops shoot me??? same question back to you.. if they were doing so would they be in us uniform? if so i think they would be wearing a blue helmet
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Posted: 4/21/2001 9:30:24 PM EDT
There have been quite a few, U.S. military types that have refused to wear other colors, or to serve under other countries officers/directives.
"I will obey the officers appointed over me". I can not accept this morally. I don't look good in blue anyway. Earth tones, they show off my eyes... |
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Posted: 4/21/2001 9:31:38 PM EDT
I'm sitting here watching Schindler's List on PBS, never seen it before, hell yes I would fire on the troops.
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Posted: 4/21/2001 9:32:56 PM EDT
Yes if they were enemies of the constitution
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Posted: 4/21/2001 9:35:47 PM EDT
YES.
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Posted: 4/21/2001 9:37:55 PM EDT
i look best in 3d tree bark. with black and brn face paint. it covers my small blemmishes...and no one cane see my scottish nose and ears..got to look your best when confronted with a problem..pat
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Posted: 4/21/2001 9:40:16 PM EDT
>I'm sitting here watching Schindler's List on PBS, never seen it before, hell yes I would fire on the troops.
I learned about Oskar Schindler as a kid in Germany in the 70's, going to German schools. He was a saint, in the true definition, i.e., a fallible human being following the moral dictates of his conscience, and not letting the world sway him. He was not perfect, but he was far better than his business partners, the Nazis. I only wish there had been more Germans like him. I hope I never have to be dependent on an American Oskar Schindler- somehow I think they'll be fewer and farther between..... When I think of Oskar Schindler, I would take up arms against the US govt., if such ever occurred here. Somehow I think it will be a lot murkier this time around, though. |
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Posted: 4/21/2001 9:41:05 PM EDT
I just got out of the Army March 18th. I was with 4th Battalion, 31st Infantry. And I will tell you that most of my men would never follow an order like that. And now that I'm a civillian, I'd kill anyone who would try to disarm me. Including my OWN troops.
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Posted: 4/21/2001 9:46:31 PM EDT
O.K. Westman 431,
If you were going to keep your troops out of the situation, how would you react to someone firing on you as you stood bye? React to guilt by association. |
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Posted: 4/21/2001 9:47:11 PM EDT
Tippie- if they are "standing by", they are not coming to me to take my guns, so why would I shoot them? I too find this an extremely unlikely even to ever come to pass. They are already turning the children against us so that in a couple generations (maybe less) people will willingly give up their guns. Sad, but true.
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Posted: 4/21/2001 9:48:36 PM EDT
lew i got to go to bed ! its 2 am here and the first shot goes down range at 8am hope to shoot with yo some time...pat
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Posted: 4/21/2001 9:52:01 PM EDT
Ratters,
Let me ask a more qualified question. What would you expect a good NCO to do(assuming he, or she were NOT participating) if someone was to fire on his/her troops? |
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Posted: 4/21/2001 9:55:39 PM EDT
better take cover.
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Posted: 4/21/2001 9:58:30 PM EDT
Quoted: [b]Most likely it will be very subtly done, so much so, that gunowners such as hunters or skeet-shooting types will come out in favor of it, just to save their own skins and be respectable, and will probably be the ones that rat you out.[/b] Careful with the generalizations there. This clay-buster don't favor what's happening now! Most of the guys I shoot with on post are current/former SF and they're not happy either. It's the old saying about not speaking up about injustice until it is your turn and there's no one left to speak up for you. And as a final note - PULL! awp101[shotgun] |
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Posted: 4/21/2001 9:59:31 PM EDT
Tippie- Well, you gotta pick sides. Are you on the side of right or the state? What does your heart tell you? When and if stuff like this comes to pass you are going to be forced to make a choice. You can't just "sit out". Pick one and act accordingly. Sucks being in charge don't it?
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Posted: 4/21/2001 10:11:36 PM EDT
Fellas,
There is no "side" to pick. Believe it or not, I will be the one(one of many). that stands(with or without support)between you, and anyone, any color, that will come to you for your guns. Period. Lew |
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Posted: 4/21/2001 10:14:56 PM EDT
Actually, i think the younger troops would be the ones less likely to do such confiscations. Older troops would probably know better.
Beyond that. . .don't harbor any illusions. COnfiscation will never be that blatant, and there will never be a rally or a concord bridge. It will be slow, incremental steps, an inch a generation, until no one even remembers to fight anymore. Not with a bang, but with a whimper. |
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Posted: 4/21/2001 10:15:09 PM EDT
Thats too bad.
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Posted: 4/21/2001 10:26:27 PM EDT
Beyond bad,
A true American tragedy. [:(!] |
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Posted: 4/22/2001 12:19:52 AM EDT
Can you say "FRAG"?
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Posted: 4/22/2001 5:51:58 PM EDT
Yes I would.
The troops standing by? What are they doing standing by. Standing by armed with there equipment? You are going to have to pick a side. Why do you think the last administation was so bad to the troops?To get rid of the loyal solider. If ther not helping me there not on my side. Get in or lay it down and walk away. This is a fight you can not loose not only for your self,but for future generations. |
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Posted: 4/22/2001 8:46:16 PM EDT
i think that would be a ilegal order and if any trops came to get my guns i would kill every one of them untill i run out of ammo or i am dead.
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Posted: 4/22/2001 8:48:36 PM EDT
Watch the movie THE PATRIOT, then weep over the necessity of this even being discussed. This Country has come so far--backward!![:(] Let the Founder's words guide you concerning those who would steal liberty.
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Posted: 4/23/2001 12:27:18 AM EDT
Quoted: Let the Founder's words guide you concerning those who would steal liberty. AMEN. Read Read Read. The more you read about the men and women of that time the stronger you become. Americans are dumbed down by design. Fight back by learning who you really are and what your purpose for being is. |
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Posted: 4/23/2001 12:37:49 AM EDT
ANOTHERPUNDIT is right. To be honest, I think only a major disruption in social order can keep it from happeneing eventually. Oddly enough, sometimes I hope I'll be around to see it...
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Posted: 4/23/2001 5:18:18 AM EDT
In UC the Bonus Marchers were run down, burned out and terrorized by their counterparts.
It has only gotten worse in the past 68 years. |
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Posted: 4/23/2001 6:29:27 AM EDT
Quoted: O.K. Westman 431, If you were going to keep your troops out of the situation, how would you react to someone firing on you as you stood bye? React to guilt by association. You make it sound as if your troops would stand around picking their noses while bullets were flying--pretty unlikely. If you as CO refused a direct order to participate in your hypothetical action you and your men would not be standing close by while others obeyed. You would probably be in the brig. Remember the " . . . against all enemies both foreign and domestic." Anyone who attempted to disarm American citizens would be a domestic enemy. You and your men would likely fight on one side or the other if such a horrendous undertaking were begun. BUT, as stated above by 95thFoot, this is very unlikely as the streets would be too slippery with the blood of both sides. Relax, Tippie, you will not be asked to do this during your time in service to the Country. BTW, thank you for your service. |
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Posted: 4/23/2001 6:39:25 AM EDT
I pray that you are right.
For the service, you are welcome. I think this kind of goes in cycles. Rarely do we get a "thank you"(although it happens often here). THANK YOU, for your words. And for what it is worth, an appology, for letting raw nerves control my mouth. Lew |
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Posted: 4/23/2001 6:58:01 AM EDT
Quoted: I pray that you are right. For the service, you are welcome. I think this kind of goes in cycles. Rarely do we get a "thank you"(although it happens often here). THANK YOU, for your words. And for what it is worth, an appology, for letting raw nerves control my mouth. Lew I understand your allegiance to your men, this is as it should/must be. You are obviously a man worthy of being a leader. I am not religious but we should all pray this sort of thing never becomes a reality. There is a reason the first Civil War was so bloody--Americans are passionate and know how to fight for what they (we) believe is right. We must fight to maintain the Constitution and all of its protection from tyranny. BUT, let's educate others so that the fighting can be at the ballot box to dislodge the current enemies of liberty. |
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Posted: 4/23/2001 7:37:16 AM EDT
Why would the men shoot the officers?
there are pro-gun officers out there,I know a few myself that would go AWOL immediatly.... geez,as soon as I am out of college and get my commision I might be a little worried if any of ya'll is in my platoon/company...... Oh,Well just have to make sure none of ya are behind me if the order ever does go out! [:D] |
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Posted: 4/23/2001 7:40:21 AM EDT
Why would the men shoot the officers?
there are pro-gun officers out there,I know a few myself that would go AWOL immediatly.... geez,as soon as I am out of college and get my commision I might be a little worried if any of ya'll is in my platoon/company...... Oh,Well just have to make sure none of ya are behind me if the order ever does go out! [:D] |
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Posted: 4/23/2001 8:40:32 AM EDT
Quoted: Why would the men shoot the officers? there are pro-gun officers out there,I know a few myself that would go AWOL immediatly.... geez,as soon as I am out of college and get my commision I might be a little worried if any of ya'll is in my platoon/company...... Oh,Well just have to make sure none of ya are behind me if the order ever does go out! [:D] sigman, that comment was made (not by me, but "I was there") referring to those who did not "go AWOL immediately." In other words, the military would be split into two groups--those who follow the Constitution and those who blindly follow illegal orders. The fragging comments suggest a solution to the leadership of the latter group. I hope you are studying the Constitution during your time in school. Best wishes. |
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Posted: 4/24/2001 1:35:08 AM EDT
if this situation were ever to come to pass, all laws would be irrelevent, but one - tha law of the land. let the moral compass guide you as it is almost never wrong.
the liberty of all comes at the price of the blood of a few. we must be willing to pay that price of all will be lost. personally i would have to, my afore mentioned moral compass would demand it. |
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Posted: 4/24/2001 1:51:17 AM EDT
Quoted: Quoted: I pray that you are right. For the service, you are welcome. I think this kind of goes in cycles. Rarely do we get a "thank you"(although it happens often here). THANK YOU, for your words. And for what it is worth, an appology, for letting raw nerves control my mouth. Lew I understand your allegiance to your men, this is as it should/must be. You are obviously a man worthy of being a leader. I am not religious but we should all pray this sort of thing never becomes a reality. There is a reason the first Civil War was so bloody--Americans are passionate and know how to fight for what they (we) believe is right. We must fight to maintain the Constitution and all of its protection from tyranny. BUT, let's educate others so that the fighting can be at the ballot box to dislodge the current enemies of liberty. |
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Posted: 4/24/2001 6:50:36 AM EDT
Quoted: ...If they are coming to take my guns they are my enemy and I will shoot them. Simple. I second that... |
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Posted: 4/24/2001 12:58:15 PM EDT
Tippie,
Who are the "several" members of the military that "have refused to wear other colors, or to serve under other countries officers/directives"? Last I checked, SPC Michael New, a rifleman in the 1st Bn, 15th Infantry, 3d Infantry Division was the only one to do so, and was rightly removed from service. I know this story fairly well, as he was serving a couple miles down the road from me in Schweinfurt, Germany while this was happening. As I was in 2-15 Infantry, our task force was deployed to support Operation Able Sentry in June 1994 as a member of the United Nations Protection Force (UNPROFOR). Yep, I wore the light blue ball cap/beret for 6 months while working in Macedonia. Want to know a little secret? Despite all the breast-beating and loud cries of foul, we were always under US control. Yes, our LTC reported to a Finnish Major General for the day-to-day stuff, but make no mistake--everything we did was also passed along US channels through JTF-PP in Naples back to the CG of 3ID in Germany. If there was ever any conflict in guidance, would you like to guess which side took precedence? This myth about us serving the UN is just that, and it steams me everytime someone who wasn't there and doesn't know how things really worked pretends to preach gospel on the matter. Like so many Vietnam War veterans say (and rightfully so), "If you weren't there, STFU!" |
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