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Posted: 5/21/2002 2:38:23 AM EDT
I was reading the forum on the million gun march, and an intersting thought came to mind. Would the military fire on the citizens it was made to protect? Even the police for that matter? I'm a Marine Reservist, and personally, I would shoot the bastard who would give me the order to open fire on civilians. Opinions, comments?
Link Posted: 5/21/2002 2:48:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/21/2002 2:51:16 AM EDT by rjroberts]
Originally Posted By christopher_madsen: I was reading the forum on the million gun march, and an intersting thought came to mind. Would the military fire on the citizens it was made to protect? Even the police for that matter? I'm a Marine Reservist, and personally, I would shoot the bastard who would give me the order to open fire on civilians. Opinions, comments?
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Look into the history of the Veteran's Bonus March in the 1930's. Some of the great icons of the era were involved. Not only was tear gas used, but there were discussions of violence. Wasn't there, so one has to rely on reports. ANd, these were veterans trying to get what had been promised. The new crop of soldiers was quite ready to take them on. Add to all that the "just doing my job" mentality throughout all officialdom. By the way, if you opened fire on the bastard, etc., though commendable as a stand in principle, you would be guilty of mutiny. There would be plenty of others willing to take you in. There's always plenty of brownnoses around, as I'm sure you have observed. Of course, if it all comes to that, maybe some old guys like myself, who have had enough of the BS, would stand with you.
Link Posted: 5/21/2002 5:38:28 AM EDT
They already did. Haven't you heard of Kent State?
Link Posted: 5/21/2002 5:42:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/21/2002 5:44:08 AM EDT by AMMOTECH]
No! I would not unless I was under duress from an other armed person or vehicle. The East German's that were guarding the Berlin wall were only doing their job when they shot peolpe who were going over the wall. Some of them are in Jail now as a result. -Dave
Link Posted: 5/21/2002 6:27:57 AM EDT
That Question was asked around 1994-95. I remember reading it in the news paper in Colo. Spgs. CO. The answeres that I remember was that a majority of soldiers said no. Some even went so far as saying that if ordered to kick doors in and confiscate guns or arrest people. They would desert and join/form a group and fight. This was 7-8 years ago and don't remember it. There was more but since I can't remember I wont say out of context. The U.S.A. would have to be in realy bad shape for something like this to happen. I beleive almost to the point of collapse. If we did start fighting amongst ourselves (civil war or another revolution) Would that invite our enemys to declare war on us when we are fighting ourselves. Would we be weak? Would we stop fighting amongst ourselves to fight this enemy? Or would we destroy ourselves? I do beleive that one day the people MAY have to put the government back in check. Will the miitary chose sides? Yes, some for the people and some for the government. I have met both. I even had a E-7 SFC tell me that the constitution did not give the people the right to own guns. (I showed him a copy of the 2nd amendment. After he read it he throw it down and walked off without a word) Without saying any more, YES military supporters of the government will fire on the american people, and not think twice about it. It does'nt get any worse when you are killing your own
Link Posted: 5/21/2002 6:42:50 AM EDT
If some self-righteous, pompous and loquacious guy tellETH the military the civilians in question are really all subhuman swine who have no right to be there to begin with and doETH so often enough and convincingly (hmm, who springETH to mind?), after all, the bible sayETH so.....yes, this would happen again.
Link Posted: 5/21/2002 6:58:32 AM EDT
They already have. Bonus Marchers Waco (Delta Force) Tennessee Whiskey Rebellion (something like that) Kent State Riots in the 60's??
Link Posted: 5/21/2002 7:27:38 AM EDT
Short answer, no we would not. You guys who all run around saying the military loves to shoot people (civvies or otherwise) have obviously never served. I took an oath to defend this country and Constitution. Not take orders to the contrary. *ALL* high-speeds are the most patriotic men I know. Maybe some slack-assed Guard unit would, but professional soldiers understand the job. Fire on civvies. Bullshit. We'd all walk. And the D had no combat operators at Waco. That's just horseshit. -SARguy
Link Posted: 5/21/2002 7:32:13 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/21/2002 7:41:53 AM EDT
Originally Posted By fight4yourrights: They already have. Bonus Marchers Waco (Delta Force) Tennessee Whiskey Rebellion (something like that) Kent State Riots in the 60's??
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Damn, beat me to it again!
Link Posted: 5/21/2002 7:45:36 AM EDT
Post from Kar98 -
If some self-righteous, pompous and loquacious guy tellETH the military the civilians in question are really all subhuman swine who have no right to be there to begin with and doETH so often enough and convincingly (hmm, who springETH to mind?), after all, the bible sayETH so.....yes, this would happen again.
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So tellETH me, [b]Kar98[/b], have Kar98s ever been used to killETH civilians? [:D] In spades, buddy, in spades! I'm sorry to disappointETH you, [b]Kar98[/b], but I am [u]almost[/u] always on the side of civilians when there is a government that is threatening them. And My Master hath said that one who lives by the sword diETH by the sword, so He would not care for anyone who killETH in His Name! Or don't you readETH my posts? Eric The(GoDoETHThyself,Lad!)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 5/21/2002 7:50:20 AM EDT
Eric The(GoDoETHThyself,Lad!)Hun[>]:)]
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Yet another priceless one! [:D] LMAO!!!
Link Posted: 5/21/2002 7:51:25 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: So tellETH me, [b]Kar98[/b], have Kar98s ever been used to killETH civilians? [:D] Nope, those where all suicide bombers and terrorists.
In spades, buddy, in spades!
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Indeed.
don't you readETH my posts? ... I'm sorry to disappointETH you, [b]Kar98[/b], but I am [u]almost[/u] always on the side of civilians when there is a government that is threatening them.
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Yes, I do....
Link Posted: 5/21/2002 7:59:49 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/21/2002 8:02:46 AM EDT
Originally Posted By a3kid:
Eric The(GoDoETHThyself,Lad!)Hun[>]:)]
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Yet another priceless one! [:D] LMAO!!!
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Thank you, thank you very much! Eric The(EntertainingTheTroops)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 5/21/2002 8:49:45 AM EDT
I agree with SARGuy...I once heard of an SF Colonel who, when asked, if he would confiscate firearms from American citizens, he flatly stated he would shoot the officer that gave him that order...
Link Posted: 5/21/2002 9:18:57 AM EDT
Well that would be in the range of an "Unlawful order" under the UCMJ as I was taught years ago and the troops would have the duty to refuse the order. This was made VERY clear to me in the UCMJ classes back in 81. In todays PC world I am sure they spend more time on the UCMJ then back then. The JAG officer that was running the class used My lai as an example. Regular Army units I would be less worried about then Guard units, When I was in the guard for a year after active duty one NCO parroted the 2nd amendment is for the Guard BS to me. I replied to him that he needs to read it again.
Link Posted: 5/21/2002 9:38:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/21/2002 9:39:46 AM EDT by AlClenin]
If everyone in the military takes an oath to defend the constitution, then why are they over seas playing peace-keeper while the bill of rights is being whittled away day by day?
Link Posted: 5/21/2002 9:46:24 AM EDT
Fight: Where did you get the information that Delta was at Waco? I find it very hard to believe that Delta would engage in this type of operation.
Link Posted: 5/21/2002 9:47:08 AM EDT
Originally Posted By AlClenin: If everyone in the military takes an oath to defend the constitution, then why are they over seas playing peace-keeper while the bill of rights is being whittled away day by day?
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Gonna be interesting to see the answers to this one. Probably be "vote", (for tweedley-dee or tweedley-dum), or some such foolishness....
Link Posted: 5/21/2002 9:49:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/21/2002 10:30:29 AM EDT by fight4yourrights]
Originally Posted By Corey: Fight: Where did you get the information that Delta was at Waco? I find it very hard to believe that Delta would engage in this type of operation.
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The researchers that did the Waco series of videos. Also - take a look at the hole in the top of the "concrete vault" where the women & children were located - it's pretty clear a shaped charge blew a hole INTO the vault - all the rebar is bent inward - evidence of military explosives. [url=http://www.counterpunch.org/waco2.html]Delta Force at Waco[/url] [url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/2000-01/19/103l-011900-idx.html]New Evidence on Waco? Lawyers Suggest Delta Force Fired on Davidians[/url] [url=http://www.ninehundred.net/~devvy/waco_19990901d.html]Terrorist experts advised Reno - Delta Force leader at Waco meeting[/url] [url=http://www.guncontrolvictories.com/k_waco.html]Military Unit Responsible at WACO[/url]
28 video tapes from the repositories show that in the final onslaught on the Waco compound were members of the US military in special assault gear and with name tags obscured.
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Link Posted: 5/21/2002 9:50:55 AM EDT
Too many variables to really answer this one. Would most LEOs open fire on college students like at Kent State. Probably not. The 18-25 year olds today have been raised in a completely different environment. Now, if they were facing what resembled an angry mob and the heard a shot fired? Then all bets are off as far I'm concerned. Same thing goes for confiscating guns. If the LEO thought you were a holed up felon illegally possessing "machine" guns, yah, they are gonna hole you. If you are a peaceful citizen, I think most will hesitate, if not refuse. So, fellow ar15ers, I think it is a media campaign. Are we "gun nuts" or "the friendly guy/gal next door" in the eyes of our fellow americans? While we cann't control the media, we can control our personal image. If our guns are confiscated, we will hold some of the blame. -legrue
Link Posted: 5/21/2002 9:55:12 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/21/2002 9:58:10 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Forest: How about the young sheep-herder in NM a few years back. He was shot by Marines who were supposed to be watching for drug smugglers (prof Soldiers).
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Ah yes. The poor innocent sheepherder, nobly guarding his flock... He was shot and killed by one of the Marines when he opened fire on them with his rifle. They didn't snipe him just to do it, or under the orders of the NWO/UN/NATO/WTO/NAFTA Regional Subcommandante. Get a grip and do your research.
Link Posted: 5/21/2002 10:04:47 AM EDT
military firing on civilians? it has happened before, and it could again.
Link Posted: 5/21/2002 10:13:01 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22:
Originally Posted By Forest: How about the young sheep-herder in NM a few years back. He was shot by Marines who were supposed to be watching for drug smugglers (prof Soldiers).
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Ah yes. The poor innocent sheepherder, nobly guarding his flock... He was shot and killed by one of the Marines when he opened fire on them with his rifle. They didn't snipe him just to do it, or under the orders of the NWO/UN/NATO/WTO/NAFTA Regional Subcommandante. Get a grip and do your research.
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Well, I read he was shooting at a wolf. How the hell was he supposed to know there were troops hidden in the area? But, we'll never know what really happened, since he can't tell his side of the story, since he was perforated. Truth be told, this is probably a case where BOTH sides were in the right, but the conditions led to a bad situation.
Link Posted: 5/21/2002 10:19:05 AM EDT
From what I have heard, Active duty military is only supposed to fight overseas. If military is going to be used domestically, that is in the realm of the National Guard. If ordered to fire on incocent civilians, I would not, regardless of the consequences.
Link Posted: 5/21/2002 10:28:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/21/2002 10:28:39 AM EDT by Corey]
Fight: Thanks. I'll check those links out. It would be terrible if this were true. EDITED for grammar.
Link Posted: 5/21/2002 10:28:44 AM EDT
Originally Posted By pv74: If ordered to fire on incocent civilians, I would not, regardless of the consequences.
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There-in lies the rub. You'll be told that they [b]aren't innocent civilians[/b]. Are you sure you'll be able to discern the truth when the time comes? Willing to stake your career or your freedom on your perception of those criminals/innocent civilians?
Link Posted: 5/21/2002 10:30:30 AM EDT
Yes, they would, and they have. Unfortunate but true.
Link Posted: 5/21/2002 10:41:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/21/2002 10:48:23 AM EDT by cluster]
Originally Posted By fight4yourrights: There-in lies the rub. You'll be told that they [b]aren't innocent civilians[/b].
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Thats the ticket to all of this.... someone signs a paper saying what you have been doing to years is now illegal.. if your refuse to/stop give up what you are doing ... you ar no longer an innocent civilian....... edited to add ****************** that the all important MEDIA will put its resources into telling the soccer moms out there just how bad you really are....
Link Posted: 5/21/2002 11:09:45 AM EDT
Originally Posted By christopher_madsen: Would the military fire on the citizens it was made to protect? Even the police for that matter? I'm a Marine Reservist, and personally, I would shoot the bastard who would give me the order to open fire on civilians.
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This question is asked about once a week, it seems. Can't say I remember the last time a fellow Marine asked, though. I can't speak for every unit in the nation, but I know most of the guys in mine are pretty level-headed. Likewise, a buddy of mine in the Army Reserve (former active) wouldn't follow such an order, either. An interesting point made earlier, is that we would specifically be told that these civilians were [b]not[/b] innocent. I would like to think that, even if I heard a shot fired, I would wait and see what was really going on. A problem with that is, if the civilians were armed, they would be shooting back. Then survival becomes a factor even for such as you and I. So far, I don't see this as a black and white question and answer -- but I don't see it as very likely, either. I don't need some smartass armchair commando telling me I'm an idiot, or that it's happened before. I'm not saying it can't happen or won't happen, and I don't think there's a definite answer on how a given soldier or Marine would react. I just don't think this scenario is too likely. Or so I hope. NOW can we stop asking this question?
Link Posted: 5/21/2002 11:25:03 AM EDT
perhaps i did phrase the question a bit vaguely. in a situation such as the million gun march, in a 2nd amendment type protest, or to try to enforce the confiscation of weapons.
Link Posted: 5/21/2002 11:27:33 AM EDT
Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22:
Originally Posted By Forest: How about the young sheep-herder in NM a few years back. He was shot by Marines who were supposed to be watching for drug smugglers (prof Soldiers).
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Ah yes. The poor innocent sheepherder, nobly guarding his flock... He was shot and killed by one of the Marines when he opened fire on them with his rifle. They didn't snipe him just to do it, or under the orders of the NWO/UN/NATO/WTO/NAFTA Regional Subcommandante. Get a grip and do your research.
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Well, I read he was shooting at a wolf. How the hell was he supposed to know there were troops hidden in the area? But, we'll never know what really happened, since he can't tell his side of the story, since he was perforated. Truth be told, this is probably a case where BOTH sides were in the right, but the conditions led to a bad situation.
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This needs to be clarified: The shooting incident occurred in Marfa, TEXAS not New Mexico. The Goat Herder had a 22 caliber RIM fire Rifle on his person (probably 22 Long Rifle). The boys name was: Esequiel (Ezequiel by some accounts) Hernandez, Jr. A picture of the boy [img]http://www.dpft.org/hernandez/photos2/zeke.jpg[/img] Relevant Links:[url]http://vikingphoenix.com/politics/Election2000/Issues2000/NationalSecurity/marfa.htm[/url] [url]http://www.dpft.org/hernandez/gallery/[/url] The Report issued by the Marines: [url]http://www.dpft.org/hernandez/coyne.htm[/url]
Link Posted: 5/21/2002 12:00:58 PM EDT
I think if events ever led to the point where the governemnt had to use the force of the military against its own citizens, myself, and many others would not be worrying about their careers!
Link Posted: 5/21/2002 12:02:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/21/2002 12:16:48 PM EDT by cluster]
DISCLAIMER: I dont believe it will ever get like this here... unless we let it.... [img]www.guncontrolvictories.com/images/obedient.jpg[/img] before you go all ape $hit go read the disclaimer... EDITED TO ADD******************** With anyluck someday it can be like this.... [img]www.guncontrolvictories.com/images/robbery.gif[/img] [:D]
Link Posted: 5/21/2002 12:13:58 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/21/2002 12:29:52 PM EDT
They had before..they WILL again. As soon as the media lable the marcher as "terrorist".
Link Posted: 5/21/2002 12:52:23 PM EDT
Originally Posted By mcwarrior: .... I would like to think that, even if I heard a shot fired, I would wait and see what was really going on. A problem with that is, if the civilians were armed, they would be shooting back. Then survival becomes a factor even for such as you and I.
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I think mcwarrior hit it on the head. Soldiers will follow orders up to the time they are injected into a volitile situation. It's likely that guyst that would not follow an order to fire into a peaceful demonstrtation, would fire into those same folks if they were taking some incoming. It would only take a few rounds for things to get real ugly.
Link Posted: 5/21/2002 12:58:56 PM EDT
i agree with fight4your rights that they have done it before, and I do not think most would hesitate to do it again.
Link Posted: 5/21/2002 1:01:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By christopher_madsen: in a situation such as the million gun march, in a 2nd amendment type protest, or to try to enforce the confiscation of weapons.
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Sorry, but the reality is that we've got far far better things to do with our time. As for the D and the " researchers that did the Waco series of videos", that's just bullshit. These are the same guys that photoshop M1A2 Abrams tanks lined up at the compound. There were no Abrams there. Nor were there any door kickers or snipers from the D. Didn't happen. -SARguy
Link Posted: 5/21/2002 1:10:03 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/21/2002 1:51:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Forest: No there were no Abrams there, but even the Wasthington Post has indicated the presence on Delta, and there is some questions (observer status only or participants?) as to what activities they were engaged in.
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Forest, spot on, bro. [8D] Oftentimes, military advisors are consulted by civilian anthorities. It's just like the militry coordinating with federal LE in AT/CT operations. Let's face it, military operations aren't often concerned with proper evidence procedures, CoC, etc. Things like offering surveillance and tactical advice are the limits of what the military can do on CONUS. Believe it or not, military door kickers ask guys like LASD SWAT about their warrant service procedures because they've got the experience and do that every day. Sharing knowledge doesn't have to mean active participation. -SARguy
Link Posted: 5/21/2002 1:58:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/21/2002 1:59:24 PM EDT by AlClenin]
Originally Posted By SARguy:
Originally Posted By christopher_madsen: in a situation such as the million gun march, in a 2nd amendment type protest, or to try to enforce the confiscation of weapons.
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Sorry, but the reality is that we've got far far better things to do with our time.
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If this is true, how do you explain the bonus march? If the MGM were to happen it would be law breakers (no guns in DC right?) not innocnt civilians. Breaking the law = no longer "innocent civilian". It would be a massacre.
Link Posted: 5/21/2002 2:34:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AlClenin:
Originally Posted By SARguy:
Originally Posted By christopher_madsen: in a situation such as the million gun march, in a 2nd amendment type protest, or to try to enforce the confiscation of weapons.
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Sorry, but the reality is that we've got far far better things to do with our time.
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If this is true, how do you explain the bonus march? If the MGM were to happen it would be law breakers (no guns in DC right?) not innocnt civilians. Breaking the law = no longer "innocent civilian". It would be a massacre.
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Dude, if it happens in CONUS, it's a [b]LAW ENFORCEMENT[/b] issue, either local or federal. The military does policy enforcement, not law enforcement. -SARguy
Link Posted: 5/21/2002 2:44:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SARguy:
Originally Posted By AlClenin:
Originally Posted By SARguy:
Originally Posted By christopher_madsen: in a situation such as the million gun march, in a 2nd amendment type protest, or to try to enforce the confiscation of weapons.
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Sorry, but the reality is that we've got far far better things to do with our time.
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If this is true, how do you explain the bonus march? If the MGM were to happen it would be law breakers (no guns in DC right?) not innocnt civilians. Breaking the law = no longer "innocent civilian". It would be a massacre.
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Dude, if it happens in CONUS, it's a [b]LAW ENFORCEMENT[/b] issue, either local or federal. The military does policy enforcement, not law enforcement. -SARguy
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If you think the million gun march could happen without military being present, then you are fooling yourself. I will agree that you have better things to do though:
Originally Posted By AlClenin: If everyone in the military takes an oath to defend the constitution, then why are they over seas playing peace-keeper while the bill of rights is being whittled away day by day?
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In this oath, do they swear to protect the current government? Or to uphold the constitution? What exactly is the oath?
Link Posted: 5/21/2002 2:51:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/21/2002 2:52:13 PM EDT by Cincinnatus]
My same answer from the other thread, of the same flavor: Of course not... ...and this gets the award for the most trite, over-posted, favorite topic of the tin-foil crowd. Enough, already. Sometimes I think that this type of paranoia is actually fantasy. I believe some of us would just love to have a battle with imaginary, UN-sponsored, Jack-booted gun-grabbers. Those who harbor such fanstasies must have truly boring lives (without children, too).
Link Posted: 5/21/2002 3:11:22 PM EDT
Well, I remember the pics of when the government ordered "troops" to go and get Ellian in Florida. They had the barrels pointed at other human beings, and maybe Americans, thus communicating "interfere and we will shoot you".
Link Posted: 5/21/2002 3:16:29 PM EDT
...so therefore the US Army and Marine Corps would/will come door to door, killing citizens who possess firearms? I don't think so.
Link Posted: 5/21/2002 3:16:49 PM EDT
I wouldnt hesitate one minute, but then I wouldnt hesitate to shoot a soldier also. GG
Link Posted: 5/21/2002 3:22:09 PM EDT
The military will fire in a small tiff or outbrake but if there are told to go out and raise hell on the public they won't. As for the Police,they will shoot anybody that won't cost them a pay check.
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