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Posted: 1/17/2015 12:26:19 PM EST
As most of you know, the ATF came out with a new ruling on shouldering a weapon with a Sig Brace attached. Do you think people will listen?

No poll, as I don't know how to add one.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 12:35:14 PM EST
Lol, have you seen the EE?
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 12:36:04 PM EST
Thread is new and innovative
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 12:38:35 PM EST
I saw a sig brace sell for 60 bucks in a little under 45 min

it was brand new


Link Posted: 1/17/2015 12:39:08 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/17/2015 12:47:26 PM EST by DragoMuseveni]
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 12:39:13 PM EST
I'll be interested to see if they actually try to hem somebody up for shouldering a SIG brace (solely on that charge, unlike the Kalifornia clusterfuck currently ongoing).

Right now, my feeling is that it's like an incrementally more dangerous 922(r).
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 12:39:59 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/17/2015 12:43:26 PM EST by Bartholomew_Roberts]
I bet Youtube videos of people shouldering a SigBrace take a dramatic plunge; but other than that I don't see a big change. Hell, during the 1994 ban there were all kinds of non-compliant rifles everywhere - and that was something that could be more easily checked. Under ATFs latest letter, unless they catch you in the act of shouldering it, they don't have any evidence to even prosecute.

Heck, even if they have video of you shouldering a Sig Brace, they still have to prove that it wasn't a registered SBR in the video.

The interesting thing to me will be if they use this ruling to retroactively punish "ungood thinking.". If I were Colion Noir or some other prominent RKBA guy who was well-spoken and represented a threat to the Administration's position on gun control, I'd be getting my ducks in a row.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 12:42:06 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 12:46:24 PM EST
LOL at everyone in the EE freaking out and selling them!
It is not illegal to have. You won't have to turn it in. Just shoot the dame thing who gives a damn.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 12:47:43 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Strizzo:
Lol, have you seen the EE?
View Quote




holy shit

i knew i should have checked the other day, i am now in the market.
maybe i will wait until PSA has them for 49.99
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 12:49:16 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Strizzo:
Lol, have you seen the EE?
View Quote
I'm ALMOST tempted pick one up on the cheap and troll the ATF with it on my SBR. It's probably better to not open that can of worms though.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 12:49:22 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By zaskar017:
Thread is new and innovative
View Quote

You have a sense of humor.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 12:50:45 PM EST
Fuck 'em.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 12:50:56 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TescoVee:
I'm ALMOST tempted pick one up on the cheap and troll the ATF with it on my SBR. It's probably better to not open that can of worms though.
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Originally Posted By TescoVee:
Originally Posted By Strizzo:
Lol, have you seen the EE?
I'm ALMOST tempted pick one up on the cheap and troll the ATF with it on my SBR. It's probably better to not open that can of worms though.

You can troll gd, it would be fun
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 12:58:14 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Bartholomew_Roberts:
I bet Youtube videos of people shouldering a SigBrace take a dramatic plunge; but other than that I don't see a big change. Hell, during the 1994 ban there were all kinds of non-compliant rifles everywhere - and that was something that could be more easily checked. Under ATFs latest letter, unless they catch you in the act of shouldering it, they don't have any evidence to even prosecute.

Heck, even if they have video of you shouldering a Sig Brace, they still have to prove that it wasn't a registered SBR in the video.

The interesting thing to me will be if they use this ruling to retroactively punish "ungood thinking.". If I were Colion Noir or some other prominent RKBA guy who was well-spoken and represented a threat to the Administration's position on gun control, I'd be getting my ducks in a row.
View Quote
What about if an 07 FFL with SOT went to a public range where they ATF were known to frequent?
What are they going to do arrest him and charge him with illegal possession of an SBR?


Link Posted: 1/17/2015 1:04:50 PM EST
Y'all are missing the whole point of this.

The ATF doesn't even have to prove that you actually shouldered it, just by possessing it you're looking at a felony charge. By their "constructive intent" logic, you've already built an SBR.


How many cases are there where a LEO (not intended to be a cop bash, just stating it as it happens) says they saw something happen, and then it turns out it didn't happen that way? There's no way to physically tell that you didn't shoulder it. Think about that for a second. There's no physical evidence that you didn't break the law. Any federal prossocutor worth his/her weight is going to say "It's commonly known that the use of one of these 'Sig Braces' is to skirt around the National Firearms Act laws, to avoid paying a $200 tax. Look at all of these youtube videos." You'd be fucked, courtesy of your internet neckbeards.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 1:10:29 PM EST
the majority of Sig Brace owners will remain blissfully unaware of ATF's latest ruling and continue doing whatever they feel like with their brace.

firearms owners in general have little or no knowledge of firearms laws, just look at all the questionable armslist/gunbroker ads that get posted here on a regular basis.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 1:11:44 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 1:15:19 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/17/2015 1:15:49 PM EST by Bartholomew_Roberts]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By awptickes:
Y'all are missing the whole point of this.

The ATF doesn't even have to prove that you actually shouldered it, just by possessing it you're looking at a felony charge. By their "constructive intent" logic, you've already built an SBR.
View Quote



The ATF's position is that the SIG Brace, when used as a brace is legal. When used as a stock, you have "redesigned a firearm to be fire from the shoulder" and therefore made an SBR. So going by their own letter, they do indeed have to show that you designed or redesigned the firearm to be fired from the shoulder. So they need some evidence of intent from the user - an internet post, an email, a video showing it being used from the shoulder.

You can't rely on constructive intent to prosecute when there is a legal use for the parts in your possession (See Thompson Centerfire).
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 1:16:07 PM EST
I am just going to put a collapsible stock on my non-sbr pistol.

I just never intend to shoulder it. I only want the stock so I can more securely lean it up against the wall.

Therefore, under their current ruling, I have "resdesigned" the collapsible stock vertical storage platform device and my pistol will remain a pistol, not requiring to be registered under the NFA.

Link Posted: 1/17/2015 1:17:55 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/17/2015 1:19:01 PM EST by hotbiggun42]
If it's legal to buy and sell then I don't see the problem with owning it.

Now would I use in a self defense situation? Prolly not

I will pick one up if they hit $50
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 1:18:20 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Coop4570:
the majority of Sig Brace owners will remain blissfully unaware of ATF's latest ruling and continue doing whatever they feel like with their brace.

firearms owners in general have little or no knowledge of firearms laws, just look at all the questionable armslist/gunbroker ads that get posted here on a regular basis.
View Quote



I agree. If you actually strictly enforced all the ridiculous firearms laws on the books, you'd have to imprison several million people. You could probably round up over a million just on 922r violations.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 1:18:58 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By awptickes:
Y'all are missing the whole point of this.

The ATF doesn't even have to prove that you actually shouldered it, just by possessing it you're looking at a felony charge. By their "constructive intent" logic, you've already built an SBR.


How many cases are there where a LEO (not intended to be a cop bash, just stating it as it happens) says they saw something happen, and then it turns out it didn't happen that way? There's no way to physically tell that you didn't shoulder it. Think about that for a second. There's no physical evidence that you didn't break the law. Any federal prossocutor worth his/her weight is going to say "It's commonly known that the use of one of these 'Sig Braces' is to skirt around the National Firearms Act laws, to avoid paying a $200 tax. Look at all of these youtube videos." You'd be fucked, courtesy of your internet neckbeards.
View Quote


Uh, no. Read the letter carefully. It states the design only changes when it is actually shouldered. Per the ATF ruling, Intent does not change the design, only the act. It would be the same as getting a speeding ticket for telling the car dealer you might go faster than the speed limit.

Retarded ruling all around.

And no, I do not own one.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 1:23:56 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/17/2015 1:24:41 PM EST by JeepinCO]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By awptickes:
Y'all are missing the whole point of this.

The ATF doesn't even have to prove that you actually shouldered it, just by possessing it you're looking at a felony charge. By their "constructive intent" logic, you've already built an SBR.


How many cases are there where a LEO (not intended to be a cop bash, just stating it as it happens) says they saw something happen, and then it turns out it didn't happen that way? There's no way to physically tell that you didn't shoulder it. Think about that for a second. There's no physical evidence that you didn't break the law. Any federal prossocutor worth his/her weight is going to say "It's commonly known that the use of one of these 'Sig Braces' is to skirt around the National Firearms Act laws, to avoid paying a $200 tax. Look at all of these youtube videos." You'd be fucked, courtesy of your internet neckbeards.
View Quote



Dude, I have to ask....are you retarded? Did you not read that it's still perfectly fine to use as a brace, or is it more fun to spew baseless shit from your mouth and to think you sound intelligent?
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 1:24:15 PM EST
IBTL for COC#4
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 1:25:56 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By J75player:
IBTL for COC#4
View Quote



Do you need the phone number to the ATF so you can report this to them too?
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 1:26:12 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TarzanT:


Uh, no. Read the letter carefully. It states the design only changes when it is actually shouldered. Per the ATF ruling, Intent does not change the design, only the act. It would be the same as getting a speeding ticket for telling the car dealer you might go faster than the speed limit.

Retarded ruling all around.

And no, I do not own one.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TarzanT:
Originally Posted By awptickes:
Y'all are missing the whole point of this.

The ATF doesn't even have to prove that you actually shouldered it, just by possessing it you're looking at a felony charge. By their "constructive intent" logic, you've already built an SBR.


How many cases are there where a LEO (not intended to be a cop bash, just stating it as it happens) says they saw something happen, and then it turns out it didn't happen that way? There's no way to physically tell that you didn't shoulder it. Think about that for a second. There's no physical evidence that you didn't break the law. Any federal prossocutor worth his/her weight is going to say "It's commonly known that the use of one of these 'Sig Braces' is to skirt around the National Firearms Act laws, to avoid paying a $200 tax. Look at all of these youtube videos." You'd be fucked, courtesy of your internet neckbeards.


Uh, no. Read the letter carefully. It states the design only changes when it is actually shouldered. Per the ATF ruling, Intent does not change the design, only the act. It would be the same as getting a speeding ticket for telling the car dealer you might go faster than the speed limit.

Retarded ruling all around.

And no, I do not own one.


It is like saying that if you use a butterknife to remove the screw on a battery compartment on your kid's toy, you've "redesigned" the butterknife.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 1:27:13 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By J75player:
IBTL for COC#4
View Quote


Sorry, I have redesigned COC #4.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 1:27:14 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By J75player:
IBTL for COC#4
View Quote



Craigslist is missing a self appointed mod
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 1:27:17 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Coop4570:
the majority of Sig Brace owners will remain blissfully unaware of ATF's latest ruling and continue doing whatever they feel like with their brace.

firearms owners in general have little or no knowledge of firearms laws, just look at all the questionable armslist/gunbroker ads that get posted here on a regular basis.
View Quote


yep, we are the minority

it's too much to keep up with and most people don't cling to the Internet like we do
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 1:27:58 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DDiggler:


Sorry, I have redesigned COC #4.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DDiggler:
Originally Posted By J75player:
IBTL for COC#4


Sorry, I have redesigned COC #4.





Link Posted: 1/17/2015 1:28:45 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/17/2015 1:31:43 PM EST by CTM1]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DragoMuseveni:
Oh looky. I call this ruling last year.


http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1610984_Will_someone_explain_this_AR_pistol_Sig_stabilizer_thing_to_me_.html

Edit: And the ATF said it was ok to shoulder the Sig brace because they said it was illegal

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1609908_Here_s_the_ATF_s_stance_on_shouldering_an_AR_pistol_and_the_Sig_brace.html
View Quote


Sighting the letter to the Sgt is silly as it was not the ruling issued to Sig.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 1:29:39 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/17/2015 1:33:09 PM EST by J75player]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By JeepinCO:



Do you need the phone number to the ATF so you can report this to them too?
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By JeepinCO:
Originally Posted By J75player:
IBTL for COC#4



Do you need the phone number to the ATF so you can report this to them too?

OP is the agent fishing asking people if they will go ahead and break the ATF's law
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 1:30:12 PM EST
All those people selling their pistol braces are in fear of the man!

These are the same spineless individuals that would climb into a cattle car destined for a concentration camp.

Link Posted: 1/17/2015 1:31:58 PM EST
I feel sorry for the poor bastard who doesnt keep up with the latest/greatest ATF rulings and gets busted shouldering the Sig brace after buying it with the ATF approval letter included.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 1:32:49 PM EST
In for the letter on design
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 1:32:52 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Kleinman:
LOL at everyone in the EE freaking out and selling them!
It is not illegal to have. You won't have to turn it in. Just shoot the dame thing who gives a damn.
View Quote

true, but I'm done listed mine for 100 with a tube i was planing to do it next month as i got my trust notarized over xmas and just did a suppressor. next month was SBR month lol partly b/c i felt this was coming after the letter in December.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 1:42:40 PM EST
And how does shouldering the brace make it some kind of death machine ? It's all about taking power away and giving it to the gubmint.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 1:44:04 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By JeepinCO:



Do you need the phone number to the ATF so you can report this to them too?
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By JeepinCO:
Originally Posted By J75player:
IBTL for COC#4



Do you need the phone number to the ATF so you can report this to them too?

He has it on speed dial.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 1:57:09 PM EST
Originally Posted By leib109:
As most of you know, the ATF came out with a new ruling on shouldering a weapon with a Sig Brace attached. Do you think people will listen?

No poll, as I don't know how to add one.
View Quote

Given that the letter only applies to the person it was written to and very obvious contradicts the law (which is entirely about design intent, not usage) I don't see why anyone (except the person who received the letter) should pay it any heed.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 1:57:55 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SemperFo:
I feel sorry for the poor bastard who doesnt keep up with the latest/greatest ATF rulings and gets busted shouldering the Sig brace after buying it with the ATF approval letter included.
View Quote

I have a good feeling that IF it ever happens and that's a BIG IF, that person will get more than enough support to cover his legal fee's, etc...

Link Posted: 1/17/2015 3:46:19 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/17/2015 3:49:55 PM EST by leib109]
Personally, I don't think it's going to gain much traction. How will it be enforced? The only way I see it being enforced is if ranges begin to not allow you to shoulder Sig braces, or not allow them on the range at all. I bet a lot of LEOs will not enforce it, and there isn't an ATF agent on every range or in every rural shooting spot. From the way the letter is worded, it's not as if mere possession of a Sig brace installed on a pistol will be grounds for prosecution.

My guess is that not much will change because it's too hard to prove that you actually shouldered the weapon at some point, unless some ATF agent or overzealous LEO catches you doing it, or if someone is actually stupid enough to post a video or picture online of them shouldering the weapon.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 3:48:13 PM EST
If it werent for me being a member of this site, I would have never known.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 8:14:56 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By awptickes:
Y'all are missing the whole point of this.

The ATF doesn't even have to prove that you actually shouldered it, just by possessing it you're looking at a felony charge. By their "constructive intent" logic, you've already built an SBR.


How many cases are there where a LEO (not intended to be a cop bash, just stating it as it happens) says they saw something happen, and then it turns out it didn't happen that way? There's no way to physically tell that you didn't shoulder it. Think about that for a second. There's no physical evidence that you didn't break the law. Any federal prossocutor worth his/her weight is going to say "It's commonly known that the use of one of these 'Sig Braces' is to skirt around the National Firearms Act laws, to avoid paying a $200 tax. Look at all of these youtube videos." You'd be fucked, courtesy of your internet neckbeards.
View Quote
Thats not what they said at all
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 8:18:00 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Coop4570:
the majority of Sig Brace owners will remain blissfully unaware of ATF's latest ruling and continue doing whatever they feel like with their brace.

firearms owners in general have little or no knowledge of firearms laws, just look at all the questionable armslist/gunbroker ads that get posted here on a regular basis.
View Quote
BS
That is a minute amount of dumb ass questions in relation to how many gun owners there are and how many 100,000's of guns sold there
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 8:20:51 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By JeepinCO:



Dude, I have to ask....are you retarded? Did you not read that it's still perfectly fine to use as a brace, or is it more fun to spew baseless shit from your mouth and to think you sound intelligent?
View Quote View All Quotes
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Originally Posted By JeepinCO:
Originally Posted By awptickes:
Y'all are missing the whole point of this.

The ATF doesn't even have to prove that you actually shouldered it, just by possessing it you're looking at a felony charge. By their "constructive intent" logic, you've already built an SBR.


How many cases are there where a LEO (not intended to be a cop bash, just stating it as it happens) says they saw something happen, and then it turns out it didn't happen that way? There's no way to physically tell that you didn't shoulder it. Think about that for a second. There's no physical evidence that you didn't break the law. Any federal prossocutor worth his/her weight is going to say "It's commonly known that the use of one of these 'Sig Braces' is to skirt around the National Firearms Act laws, to avoid paying a $200 tax. Look at all of these youtube videos." You'd be fucked, courtesy of your internet neckbeards.



Dude, I have to ask....are you retarded? Did you not read that it's still perfectly fine to use as a brace, or is it more fun to spew baseless shit from your mouth and to think you sound intelligent?
So you don't care about the rules here ok see ya
IBTL
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 8:22:02 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By JeepinCO:



Do you need the phone number to the ATF so you can report this to them too?
View Quote View All Quotes
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Originally Posted By JeepinCO:
Originally Posted By J75player:
IBTL for COC#4



Do you need the phone number to the ATF so you can report this to them too?
I didn't like the guys post you called retarded either but if "jrzy" is saying back off , slow down then you know you're crossing the line
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 8:24:30 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By CTM1:


Sighting the letter to the Sgt is silly as it was not the ruling issued to Sig.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By CTM1:
Originally Posted By DragoMuseveni:
Oh looky. I call this ruling last year.


http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1610984_Will_someone_explain_this_AR_pistol_Sig_stabilizer_thing_to_me_.html

Edit: And the ATF said it was ok to shoulder the Sig brace because they said it was illegal

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1609908_Here_s_the_ATF_s_stance_on_shouldering_an_AR_pistol_and_the_Sig_brace.html


Sighting the letter to the Sgt is silly as it was not the ruling issued to Sig.
I don't know where this BS ever came from but Tech branch letters are not only good for the person who asked , they can and are good for everyone. (not all the time)
I write tech branch letters all the time and the answers are good for all our customers.

Link Posted: 1/17/2015 8:25:01 PM EST
Since i do not own one.... Nope...
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 8:25:59 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/17/2015 8:27:16 PM EST by jrzy]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Dezelrig:
All those people selling their pistol braces are in fear of the man!

These are the same spineless individuals that would climb into a cattle car destined for a concentration camp.

View Quote
A newbie with 13 posts calling long time members here cattle?
What a joke
By the way , have you called the Co state police and told them to fuck off with all those new gun & mag laws?
If not all I have to say to you is MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 8:28:40 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Scott-S6:

Given that the letter only applies to the person it was written to and very obvious contradicts the law (which is entirely about design intent, not usage) I don't see why anyone (except the person who received the letter) should pay it any heed.
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Originally Posted By Scott-S6:
Originally Posted By leib109:
As most of you know, the ATF came out with a new ruling on shouldering a weapon with a Sig Brace attached. Do you think people will listen?

No poll, as I don't know how to add one.

Given that the letter only applies to the person it was written to and very obvious contradicts the law (which is entirely about design intent, not usage) I don't see why anyone (except the person who received the letter) should pay it any heed.
The part in red is not true
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