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Posted: 9/14/2004 7:32:54 AM EDT
School assignment.

You and your crew crashed on the moon and must travel 200 miles on the moon's surface to another spacecraft. There is a list of 12 items that survived the crash, one of them is a .45cal. pistol. You have to decide which items are most important for your 200 mile trip. I figure the .45 would be of no value because it probably won't fire in the moon's atmosphere due to the lack of oxygen. I would assume the gun powder needs oxygen to burn. Am I correct?

Link Posted: 9/14/2004 7:34:06 AM EDT
They've been giving out this assignment for at least 30 years...

And no, you are not correct.
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 7:35:56 AM EDT
You are wrong. The gunpowder has it's own oxidizer. You can shoot firearms under water, and you can shoot them on the moon.
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 7:37:50 AM EDT
Who/what would you shoot?
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 7:38:26 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 7:38:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/14/2004 7:40:09 AM EDT by Zaphod]
Your fellow strandee(s) when the food and/or water runs low...
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 7:39:23 AM EDT
You could shoot the moon.
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 7:40:11 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 7:40:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1:
What would you want to shoot on the moon?



dude, theres a secret underground alien base on the moon... dont you know ANYTHING!?

Link Posted: 9/14/2004 7:40:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Zaphod:
Your fellow strandee(s) when the food and/or water runs low...



don't you mean before the air runs out?
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 7:41:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/14/2004 7:42:53 AM EDT by captainpooby]

Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1:
What would you want to shoot on the moon?



Link Posted: 9/14/2004 7:41:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1:
What would you want to shoot on the moon?


it's my God given constitutional right! who are you to question me?!?!?!?!
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 7:44:30 AM EDT
there's liitle gravity and no air resistance on the moon, so you turn and face opposite the direction of travel with the gun held out in front of you, jump in the air and fire. since you weight so much less on the moon, the gun acts like a rocket and propels you across the surface. but seriously, a .45 with 8 shots won't get you very far.
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 7:46:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Zaphod:
Your fellow strandee(s) when the food and/or water runs low...



Aha! Spoken like a true survivalist.
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 7:48:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1:
What would you want to shoot on the moon?



I'd include it just to piss off the teacher.
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 7:49:19 AM EDT
Apparently so....


Link Posted: 9/14/2004 7:50:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bookertbab:
You could shoot the moon.



+1
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 7:50:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/14/2004 7:51:21 AM EDT by Zaphod]

Originally Posted By captainpooby:

Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1:
What would you want to shoot on the moon?



www.etek.chalmers.se/~e5tomase/ackbar.jpg



Is it just me, or has ARFCOM turned into ACKBARFCOM lately?
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 7:55:50 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 7:58:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Shane333:

Originally Posted By Zaphod:
Your fellow strandee(s) when the food and/or water runs low...



Aha! Spoken like a true survivalist.



It's the only compassionate thing to do! I wouldn't want to see my beloved crewmates suffering....

Link Posted: 9/14/2004 8:01:34 AM EDT
Who knows? I can say without a doubt, that the stage they filmed the fake moon landings on is very vulnerable to gunfire.
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 8:08:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Malpaso:
Who/what would you shoot?




Link Posted: 9/14/2004 8:23:47 AM EDT
Sure, like we actually landed on the moon!
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 8:24:09 AM EDT

They've been giving out this assignment for at least 30 years...


Well, then isn't it about time that NASA plans another mission to the moon just so we can get a definative answer.
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 8:26:06 AM EDT
Didnt the Russians have weapons that they took with them. Supposedly to shoot predators when they returned to earth. But I was also under the impression that they worked in vaccum as well.
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 10:27:16 AM EDT
OK thanks, I guess the pistol will fire. It will come in handy for protection against hostile ailiens.

Link Posted: 9/14/2004 10:30:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/14/2004 10:30:58 AM EDT by DigDug]
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 10:36:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/14/2004 10:37:36 AM EDT by desertmoon]

Originally Posted By aLongshot:
OK thanks, I guess the pistol will fire. It will come in handy for protection against hostile ailiens.




ESPECIALLY AGAINST HOSTILE, illegal ALIENS. They are EVERYWHERE now. If I landed on the moon tomorrow I would not at all be suprised to find the following: a fruit stand in a crater, a Mariachi band playing nearby a day labor center, water and food points scattered across the lunar landscape, trash EVERYWHERE and someone's lunar lander on blocks in the process of being dropped and chopped.
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 10:43:39 AM EDT

I dunno if it will fire or not. It might not, but it wouldn't be because of a lack of oxydizer. Some thoughts:

1) Pressure difference. Since there will be an additiona 14.7 PSI of pressure (no atmosphere to deal with), how much more muzzle velocity will there be?

2) On the dark side of the moon, will the steel shatter due to the shock of firing the weapon in extreme cold (-240 deg F, IIRC)?

3) On the light side of the moon, won't the rounds cook off in the magazine, due to extreme heat (225 deg F, IIRC)?

4) Will the bullets stay seated in the cartridges, given that they likely have 14.7 PSI of pressure inside already from being packaged on the Earth?

5) How would you pull the trigger? I doubt you'd be able to get your finger through the trigger guard while wearing a spacesuit and the associated thick gloves. Probably need a Gen. Patton style 1911 (i.e. no trigger guards).


Link Posted: 9/14/2004 10:45:14 AM EDT
Yup. All explosives have their own oxidizer, they wouldn't explode otherwise.

I remember hearing about this one. I think you were supposed to bring the 45 because if you had a long canyon to jump over, you could use the recoil to jump significantly further. I don't know why they'd put a gun on a moon lander anyways, since every ounce on those things is critical. Why spend millions shaving a couple of ounces off of every part, and then add on a 2-3 pound pistol for no purpose?

But if you really wanna start a fight, put a 9mm in the pile too, and see what everyone takes.
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 10:45:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DigDug:

Originally Posted By ARDOC:
Didnt the Russians have weapons that they took with them. Supposedly to shoot predators when they returned to earth. But I was also under the impression that they worked in vaccum as well.



I believe they had a shotgun in their capsules.



Yup, shotguns. They dropped their capsules over land, and occasionally they'd land in some pretty remote areas. IIRC they had a Soyuz that came down, spent some time out before rescue crews got there, and had wolves circling very close when they did arrive. Can you imagine surviving the "best" the russian space program could throw at you (including rolling down the urals because ocean landings were too insecure) just to be eaten by friggin WOLVES?

I'd be pissed.
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 10:47:48 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 10:48:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By manghu67:

Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1:
What would you want to shoot on the moon?



dude, theres a secret underground alien base on the moon... dont you know ANYTHING!?



Not aliens, Nazis!! Robert Heinlein exposed it all in 'Rocket Shop Galileo'. As I recall, they (the good guys) were using M1 rifles, but had at least one .45.

Link Posted: 9/14/2004 10:56:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ChiefPilot:
I dunno if it will fire or not. It might not, but it wouldn't be because of a lack of oxydizer. Some thoughts:

1) Pressure difference. Since there will be an additiona 14.7 PSI of pressure (no atmosphere to deal with), how much more muzzle velocity will there be?



Probably not much. Not enough to affect anything, I don't think. But the velocity won't drop after the muzzle, which would make long-range shooting nice.



2) On the dark side of the moon, will the steel shatter due to the shock of firing the weapon in extreme cold (-240 deg F, IIRC)?



Hmm... possible, but I doubt it. Guns are usually overbuilt enough that it probably wouldn't be a problem. I'd check real carefully for cracks after a couple of shots, though.



3) On the light side of the moon, won't the rounds cook off in the magazine, due to extreme heat (225 deg F, IIRC)?



IIRC it takes 400+ degrees to cook off a round.



4) Will the bullets stay seated in the cartridges, given that they likely have 14.7 PSI of pressure inside already from being packaged on the Earth?



Probably. I'd expect the pressure to leak out in a few seconds. I don't know exactly how tightly the bullets and primers are seated, but I don't think that'd be enough pressure to force them out, even if it was sealed up enough to retain the pressure. I just calculated it at about 2.3 pounds of force on a 45 slug, and I think it'll take quite a bit more then that to push the bullet out.



5) How would you pull the trigger? I doubt you'd be able to get your finger through the trigger guard while wearing a spacesuit and the associated thick gloves. Probably need a Gen. Patton style 1911 (i.e. no trigger guards).



Now that could be a problem. I don't know how thick spacesuit gloves are under pressure, though. No trigger guard would probably be a good idea.
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 10:57:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DavidC:
They've been giving out this assignment for at least 30 years...

And no, you are not correct.



+1

I'll see if I can dig up the correct sequence you're supposed to choose the items in.
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 11:00:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Zaphod:

Originally Posted By captainpooby:

Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1:
What would you want to shoot on the moon?



www.etek.chalmers.se/~e5tomase/ackbar.jpg



Is it just me, or has ARFCOM turned into ACKBARFCOM lately?



Hi!
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 11:02:07 AM EDT
STUDENT HANDOUT
ITEMS NASA YOUR ERROR GROUP ERROR
RANKING RANKING POINTS RANKING POINTS POINTS
_________________________________________________________
BOX OF MATCHES | | | | |
| | | | |
_________________________________________________________
FOOD | | | | |
CONCENTRATE | | | | |
_________________________________________________________
50' OF NYLON | | | | |
ROPE | | | | |
_________________________________________________________
PARACHUTE SILK | | | | |
| | | | |
_________________________________________________________
SOLAR POWER | | | | |
HEATING UNIT | | | | |
_________________________________________________________
2 - .45 CALIBER | | | | |
PISTOLS | | | | |
_________________________________________________________
1 - CASE OF | | | | |
PET MILK | | | | |
_________________________________________________________
STELLAR MAP | | | | |
| | | | |
_________________________________________________________
2 - 100 LB. | | | | |
OXYGEN TANKS | | | | |
_________________________________________________________
SELF-INFLATING | | | | |
LIFE RAFTS | | | | |
_________________________________________________________
MAGNETIC | | | | |
COMPASS | | | | |
_________________________________________________________
5 GAL. WATER | | | | |
| | | | |
_________________________________________________________
SIGNAL | | | | |
FLARES | | | | |
_________________________________________________________
FIRST AID KIT | | | | |
WITH INJECTION | | | | |
NEEDLES__________________________________________________
SOLAR POWERED | | | | |
FM TRANSEIVER | | | | |
_________________________________________________________
TOTALS | | | | |
| | | | |

Instructor Handout
The NASA ranking "Key" may now be presented to the students for discussion . Their reasoning is also presented for students to ponder.

NASA's Ranking NASA Reasons for Selection
15 No Oxygen to sustain the flame
4 Good food source, efficient
6 Useful in scaling cliffs, tying together the injured
8 Will provide protection from sun's rays
13 Useless on dark side, not needed on lighted side
11 Possible means of propulsion
12 Bulky duplication of food concentrate
3 Primary means of navigation
1 Most pressing need
9 CO2 bottle in raft may be used for propulsion
14 Magnetic field on moon is not polarized-worthless
2 Replacement for high water loss on lighted side
10 Distress signal when mother ship is sighted
7 For injecting vitamins--special aperture in suit
5 Talk to mother ship, FM needs line of sight



Link Posted: 9/14/2004 11:57:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By topgunpilot20:
there's liitle gravity and no air resistance on the moon, so you turn and face opposite the direction of travel with the gun held out in front of you, jump in the air and fire. since you weight so much less on the moon, the gun acts like a rocket and propels you across the surface. but seriously, a .45 with 8 shots won't get you very far.



You still have the same amount of inertia. The shot would probably be more likely to knock you over because there's less gravity to balance with, but it would not make you fly backwards.

As for the original question, if you have a small pile of flour and light it, will it flare up like gunpowder? Of course not. But it should, right? There's oxygen in the air.

It's always benificial to think things through logically and rationally.
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 12:41:24 PM EDT
What would be the effective and max range of the .45? Would a 9mm hole incapacitate your food source just as quick as a .45 hole? I would want ball ammo, not hp.

I think the differencial pressure upon firing could be a problem.
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 12:54:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/14/2004 12:57:07 PM EDT by Max_Mike]
My Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator works just fine.


Originally Posted By BillofRights:
What would be the effective and max range of the .45? Would a 9mm hole incapacitate your food source just as quick as a .45 hole? I would want ball ammo, not hp.

I think the differencial pressure upon firing could be a problem.



With the low gravity and no air resistance on the moon I think a .45 would have escape velocity… if so the effective range would be infinity plus or minus a couple hundred billion miles or until it his something.
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 12:59:12 PM EDT
one item is a liferaft, right? If I recall, they talk about using the .45 to generate thrust to cross huge craters. Go figure.....
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 1:01:03 PM EDT
It is a trick question, in the answer you are supposed to use the butt of the .45 as a hammer
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 1:01:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DigDug:

Originally Posted By ARDOC:
Didnt the Russians have weapons that they took with them. Supposedly to shoot predators when they returned to earth. But I was also under the impression that they worked in vaccum as well.



I believe they had a shotgun in their capsules.



Confirmed. Just read about that. It could take a long while to find/reach them after they landed.

I also read the capsules had a self destruct module in case a Cosmonaut went Cosmonutty and tried to change course and renter into freedom.
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 1:02:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By WinstonSmith:

Originally Posted By DigDug:

Originally Posted By ARDOC:
Didnt the Russians have weapons that they took with them. Supposedly to shoot predators when they returned to earth. But I was also under the impression that they worked in vaccum as well.



I believe they had a shotgun in their capsules.



Yup, shotguns. They dropped their capsules over land, and occasionally they'd land in some pretty remote areas. IIRC they had a Soyuz that came down, spent some time out before rescue crews got there, and had wolves circling very close when they did arrive. Can you imagine surviving the "best" the russian space program could throw at you (including rolling down the urals because ocean landings were too insecure) just to be eaten by friggin WOLVES?

I'd be pissed.



You'd also be Wolf Scat.
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 1:03:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Zaphod:
Your fellow strandee(s) when the food and/or water runs low...




Bingo


- BG
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 1:05:21 PM EDT
Escape velocity on the moon is 7700 fps. I don't think the 45 will make it.

I don't see differential pressure being a problem. Normal firing pressure is like 30,000 psi. What difference will 15 psi make? That's about 0.05%. Normal pressure variations in match ammo is probably greater then that.
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 1:05:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Zaphod:
Your fellow strandee(s) when the food and/or water runs low...



why wait?
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 1:07:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/14/2004 1:18:23 PM EDT by JustL00king]
The gunpower is granulated and has enough oxygen inside it to burn on its own, the shell casing also should have some air space inside it, not completely filled with powder. The pressure and heat from firing the round causes the brass case to fire form/expand to seal the chamber. The bullet seals the barrel obviously.

The only question is: when you go into the vaccume of space will the air pressure inside the shell casing cause it to A) swell to the point it wont fit into the chamber B) eject the bullet out of the shell caseing. <this one I think would be a serious problem with rounds that dont have a canalure that the brass is crimped to.



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