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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 9/6/2005 10:15:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2005 10:42:04 PM EDT by Da_Bunny]
Bush would have gone to jail.

The Posse Comitatus Act of 1878

June 18, 1878

CHAP. 263 - An act making appropriations for the support of the Army for the fiscal year ending June thirtieth, eighteen hundred and seventy-nine, and for other purposes.

SEC. 15. From and after the passage of this act it shall not be lawful to employ any part of the Army of the United States, as a posse comitatus, or otherwise, for the purpose of executing the laws, except in such cases and under such circumstances as such employment of said force may be expressly authorized by the Constitution or by act of Congress; and no money appropriated by this act shall be used to pay any of the expenses incurred in the employment of any troops in violation of this section And any person willfully violating the provisions of this section shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanor and on conviction thereof shall be punished by fine not exceeding ten thousand dollars or imprisonment not exceeding two years or by both such fine and imprisonment.
10 U.S.C. (United States Code) 375

Sec. 375. Restriction on direct participation by military personnel:

The Secretary of Defense shall prescribe such regulations as may be necessary to ensure that any activity (including the provision of any equipment or facility or the assignment or detail of any personnel) under this chapter does not include or permit direct participation by a member of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps in a search, seizure, arrest, or other similar activity unless participation in such activity by such member is otherwise authorized by law.
18 U.S.C. 1385

Sec. 1385. Use of Army and Air Force as posse comitatus

Whoever, except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution or Act of Congress, willfully uses any part of the Army or the Air Force as a posse comitatus or otherwise to execute the laws shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both.

Editor's Note: The only exemption has to do with nuclear materials (18 U.S.C. 831 (e)


Link Posted: 9/6/2005 10:20:35 PM EDT
IMO the governor is the one that fell (COMPLETELY) down on the job
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 10:26:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2005 10:28:02 PM EDT by Da_Bunny]

Originally Posted By 22bad:
IMO the governor is the one that fell (COMPLETELY) down on the job



You're right, the only assets that were available were the Coast Guard, the National Guard and FEMA. FEMA was poised outside the city. The National Guard was moved to Texas until the storm passed. The Coast Guard was riding out the storm.

Bush couldn't get so much as a gallon of gas for the military without an act of Congress or the LA. governor's signature, suspending Posse Comitatus. He didn't get either until New Orleans was under water.

What really sucks is that Posse Comitatus is what protects us from federal tyranny.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 10:28:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Da_Bunny:

Originally Posted By 22bad:
IMO the governor is the one that fell (COMPLETELY) down on the job



You're right, the only assets that were available were the Coast Guard, the National Guard and FEMA. FEMA was poised outside the city. The National Guard was moved to Texas until the storm passed. The Coast Guard was riding out the storm.

Bush couldn't get so much as a gallon of gas for the military without an act of Congress or the LA. governor's signature, suspending Posse Comitatus. He didn't get either until New Orleans was under water.



Hey, lets not cloud the issue with facts.....
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 10:33:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NH_AR_Shooter:

Originally Posted By Da_Bunny:

Originally Posted By 22bad:
IMO the governor is the one that fell (COMPLETELY) down on the job



You're right, the only assets that were available were the Coast Guard, the National Guard and FEMA. FEMA was poised outside the city. The National Guard was moved to Texas until the storm passed. The Coast Guard was riding out the storm.

Bush couldn't get so much as a gallon of gas for the military without an act of Congress or the LA. governor's signature, suspending Posse Comitatus. He didn't get either until New Orleans was under water.



Hey, lets not cloud the issue with facts.....



Better leave me out of it then
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 10:54:19 PM EDT
Wait, so I'm confused. Did congress pass legislation permitting the miltary to go in? I'm pretty sure I saw non-National guard.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 11:11:54 PM EDT

WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 31

Morning

Governor Blanco asks the President to send federal troops to conduct law enforcement activities.



Timeline thread
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 11:26:31 PM EDT
Interesting theory except it ain't right.

The Posse Comitatus Act refers to law enforcement by the Armed Forces.

Search and Rescue and Disaster Relief are not law enforcement and are not forbidden by the Act, and in any case, there are a variety of laws on the books already authorizing such activities and under what circumstances. In other words "as authorized" is already taken care of.

As Commander in Chief, the President could order troops into the states for disaster relief if he had to even if the Governor didn't declare a State of Emergency for whatever reason. There are laws defining the process, but the Posse Comitatus Act isn't one of them. Plus, there is plenty of precedent of local commanders deploying troops for disaster relief AND law enforcement without waiting for higher commands to authorize the deployment without being prosecuted. General Funston comes to mind.

Besides, if you had paid a modicum of attention in Civics you might remember that the President is the head of the Executive Branch of the Government. All Federal Law Enforcement agencies and agents are part of the Executive Branch. So who would arrest and prosecute??? whoops forgot about that didn't ya?
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 11:29:03 PM EDT
Sending in Federal Troops UNARMED into a zone where armed thugs were shooting is plain foolish. If sending troops in without the latest body armor was bad enough...
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 6:21:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PaDanby:
Interesting theory except it ain't right.

The Posse Comitatus Act refers to law enforcement by the Armed Forces.

Search and Rescue and Disaster Relief are not law enforcement and are not forbidden by the Act, and in any case, there are a variety of laws on the books already authorizing such activities and under what circumstances. In other words "as authorized" is already taken care of.

As Commander in Chief, the President could order troops into the states for disaster relief if he had to even if the Governor didn't declare a State of Emergency for whatever reason. There are laws defining the process, but the Posse Comitatus Act isn't one of them. Plus, there is plenty of precedent of local commanders deploying troops for disaster relief AND law enforcement without waiting for higher commands to authorize the deployment without being prosecuted. General Funston comes to mind.

Besides, if you had paid a modicum of attention in Civics you might remember that the President is the head of the Executive Branch of the Government. All Federal Law Enforcement agencies and agents are part of the Executive Branch. So who would arrest and prosecute??? whoops forgot about that didn't ya?



Not at all.


So who would arrest and prosecute???


Congress can order the president arrested. If he had ordered federal troops into NOLA without cause, prior to the hurricane, Congress could have had Bush arrested.

The President deployed everything he could legally deploy prior to the hurricane. Most importantly, he could not get funding for military support of the relief efforts without suspending Posse Comitatus.

Have you been paying attention? All of this was mentioned in the news, as it happened, during the emergency. Posse Comitatus was mentioned as interfering with federal efforts to send in military relief. Bush asked the LA Gov to sign paperwork authorizing him to send in the military before the hurricane hit. She did not authorize federal troops to get involved until Wednesday, after the hurricane. Until then, Bush couldn't get one thin dime for military relief efforts. The Airforce couldn't fly in any food or water, no trucks, no trains....nothing. No funding was provided until Wednesday.

The National Guard and FEMA were overwhelmed by the demand for immediate relief. Relief efforts were limited until Posse Comitatus was suspended on Wednesday. By then, everybody was dead and looting was out of control. Tough shit for them.
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 6:29:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/7/2005 6:30:21 AM EDT by kill-9]
"Why was the [federal] government so slow to respond?" is the wrong question to be asking. The real questions are, a) why didn't the mayor have a plan safeguard the citizens of HIS CITY?, and b) why has he not been held accountable by the media? As has been pointed out, the federal government acts in support of local and state government entities. The Bush administration's only weakness in all this is that they have been willing to accept blame that should properly lie with local and state officials. Of course, their response is to throw (our) money at the problem.
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 6:31:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 22bad:
IMO the governor is the one that fell (COMPLETELY) down on the job



Don't forget the mayor.
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 6:40:53 AM EDT
This whole subject is a little bit irritating to me.
Every mentally competent adult knows that government at ANY level is a slow moving object.
And New Orleanians were reminded of this fact more than once. On July 24, 2005 the New Orleans Times Picayune ran a story telling people that if a major storm hit New Orleans the citizens who didn't evacuate would "be on their own". The MAYOR told everyone who expected to evacuate to the Superdome that they must bring with them three days worth of essentials; food, water, bedding. The city evacuation plan called for using the city school district's fleet of school busses to evacuate stragglers only as far as the Superdome, NOT as evacuation vehicles for exit of the city itself.
New Orleanians all KNEW they lived in a hurricane area. They all KNEW it was hurricane season. They all KNEW the U.S. had been hit by bad hurricanes over the past couple of years. Why did so few of these folk have a "Bug-Out Bag"? Why is NO ONE talking about the complete and abject failure of PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY taking here?
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 6:50:06 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 6:51:22 AM EDT

Why did so few of these folk have a "Bug-Out Bag"? Why is NO ONE talking about the complete and abject failure of PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY taking here?


Nail, head.....
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 7:42:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Da_Bunny:

Why did so few of these folk have a "Bug-Out Bag"? Why is NO ONE talking about the complete and abject failure of PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY taking here?


Nail, head.....



you can't write that!!!! people can't be held personally responsible for themselves that would take the apllication of logic and logic is a crime!!!!
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 8:09:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Coolio:
Why is NO ONE talking about the complete and abject failure of PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY taking here?




PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY!! LMAO. Sadly, those two words are not in the vocabulary of many Americans.
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 8:14:28 AM EDT
IMO this was an act of War by Mother Nature and everyone knows when the first shots fired all the plans have to be adjusted. The Mayor and Governor of LA were not pro-active enough and it all went down hill. The Feds will not get away without some blame, because that's what Democrats are made for.

We had some homes in Laguna Beach destroyed by a landslide and FEMA wouldn't help. Is that fair? Sure, it's Orange County, it's Republican and everyone's rich. Hey, this discrimination is pretty cool. Let's just re-build the slums in NO.


Officials Say Red Tape Hindered Relief
Sep 06 12:06 PM US/Eastern







By MARTHA MENDOZA








From all corners of this country, hundreds of would-be rescuers are wending their way to the beleaguered Gulf Coast in buses, vans and trailers. But government red tape has hampered many who ache to help Katrina's victims.

Louisiana's Jefferson Parish is desperate for relief, but parish President Aaron Broussard says officials of the Federal Emergency Management Agency turned back three trailer trucks of water, ordered the Coast Guard not to provide emergency diesel fuel and cut emergency power lines.

An outraged Broussard said Sunday on NBC's "Meet the Press" that the agency needs to bring in all its "force immediately, without red tape, without bureaucracy, act immediately with common sense and leadership, and save lives."

The government says it is doing the best it can in the face of a massive and complicated disaster.

"Even as progress is being made, we know that victims are still out there and we are working tirelessly to bring them the help they need," said Michael Brown, head of the Federal Emergency Management Agency.

Some of the delays can be explained by the need to control a volatile situation. FEMA spokeswoman Natalie Rule said Monday she had not had a chance to research what happened at Jefferson Parish, but unsolicited donations and services have been hard to manage.

"You can imagine some of the actual problem of everyone just driving toward the disaster zone," she said.

Long lines of volunteers are being stopped on freeways on their way into New Orleans.

"Anyone who self-responded was not being put to work. The military was worried about having more people in the city. They want to limit it to the professionals," said Kevin Southerland, a captain with Orange Fire Department in Orange County, Calif., a member of one of eight 14- member water rescue teams sent to New Orleans at FEMA's request.

Even skilled volunteers with the best intentions can be more trouble than help if they arrive needing food, shelter or fuel, some say.

"Our biggest problem has been trying not to put more stress on the community, particularly with regards to gasoline. We want to make sure we've got enough gas for chain saws and transportation," said Larry Guengerich of the Mennonite Disaster Service, a Pennsylvania-based relief organization that has three small crews currently working along the Gulf Coast, cutting and clearing downed limbs and covering damaged roofs.

There are, at this point, several federal emergency command centers, as well as state and local command centers where coordinators are working to match nonstop requests with the appropriate nonstop offers of help.

From the first hours of the disaster, FEMA has been using the National Incident Management System, a command structure to get millions of dollars worth of government resources and thousands of workers ranging from firefighters to public health teams to places in need. FEMA also has teams designed to support smaller communities.

FEMA is urging individuals and corporations to contact nonprofit organizations if they want to volunteer or donate.

It was FEMA's management system that brought in members of the Nebraska Air National Guard to deliver 66,000 MRE meals and extra fuel to hard-hit areas, and rescuers from Hamilton County, Ohio to search the rubble of Gulfport, Miss. for survivors.

And it was that system that dispatched a nine-member Disaster Medical Assistance Team from Hawaii to the New Orleans Airport where they triaged people evacuated from hospitals, nursing homes, the Convention Center and the Superdome.

The federal government actually wrote a "How To" book for national catastrophes after the Sept. 11, 2001 terror attacks. The 426-page document, called the National Response Plan, was released in December, 2004.

Frank Cilluffo, director of the Homeland Security Policy Institute at George Washington University, said Hurricane Katrina is the first real test of the plan, and has exposed its strengths and weaknesses.

"Quite honestly, at the federal level, the coordination was quite robust," he said. "It's just the interface between federal, state and local where clearly we need to look to ways to improve the process."

But others were more critical. Beth Sharer, CEO of Washington County Memorial Hospital in Salem, Ind., said she was frustrated by a federal plan to create 40 new emergency medical centers with 250 beds each.

"It's not any one person's fault, but the system failed," she said.

Hospitals around the country were standing by with empty beds, staff, triage centers and air transportation to fetch patients, she said. But they couldn't launch the rescue flights without requests for help, and those requests never came.

"These victims could have been here a week ago, and now they're spending a lot of time and money making triage centers? In situations like this every minute counts, not every day counts. Why not get them to these open beds?" she said.

Frank Russo of the Chicago Ambulance Alliance said his organization was ready to send help immediately. But the request didn't come until Thursday, three days after the hurricane struck.

"We didn't want to just up and go like everyone did after 9-11. We learned from that. After 9-11 everybody just went to New York and then they just sat there, they had no where to go."

Early Saturday, ten Chicago ambulances and their medical staff finally headed south with orders to report to a command center set up outside of New Orleans. By Sunday the Chicago ambulances were delivering patients from the New Orleans airport to regional hospitals.

"It makes sense to go through the government and have things set up," said Russo.

Others were still waiting for the official request. In New Jersey, for example, Gov. Richard Codey said he had a task force of 105 police officers and 55 vehicles and a medical task force of 55 physicians and 43 nurses standing by.

But other rescuers simply couldn't, or wouldn't, wait.

Early Sunday morning, for example, a convoy of more than 35 fire, police, transportation and public works vehicles left Baltimore for an 1,100-mile drive to Gretna, La.

Baltimore Mayor Martin O'Malley decided to send the help, including 40 firefighters and 28 police officers, without consulting FEMA "as a direct response to a direct request from the mayor of Gretna," said O'Malley's spokesman.

On Friday, Gary Maclaughlin of Santa Cruz, Calif., flew to Nashville, Tenn., where he bought a diesel-powered 1990 yellow school bus for $2,000. He charged $1,500 worth of water, diapers, granola bars and peanut butter crackers on his credit card and headed straight for the shelters.

By Sunday evening he was driving loads of evacuees from the New Orleans Airport to a rescue shelter in Covington, La.

___
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 8:15:43 AM EDT
Al Sharpton told me it was because the residents of NO were poor and black.

So who is telling the truth? I'm sooooooo confused now.
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 8:20:46 AM EDT
the simple anwser is that FEMA and the .gov angencies are not first responders. that is the job of the local gooberment
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 8:28:59 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 8:41:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Chaingun:

Originally Posted By 22bad:
IMO the governor is the one that fell (COMPLETELY) down on the job



Don't forget the mayor.



They always forget about the Mayor!

BigDozer66
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 8:42:55 AM EDT
IMHO, the resopnse wasn't slow. In fact, I am amazed to see the progress that is already being made.
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 8:45:48 AM EDT
Well....according to my boss, who by coincidence is black, it's because Bush hates black people.

yes I am dead serious....I was told this yesterday.

Talk about friggin ignorant.
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 8:50:07 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 8:57:55 AM EDT
The people (read dummycrats) that think the Federal government should have stepped in ASAFP sound as if they are adolescent retentive. Just a few years advanced from anal stage but still not fully matured.

Just my take on it.
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 9:54:58 AM EDT
nightstalker: If it is one thing that I learned in life, and it took me a long time to learn, "the rules are never fair, and the playing field is never level."
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