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Posted: 9/3/2002 5:57:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/3/2002 6:07:38 AM EDT by DavidC]
My kid's teachers have decided to go on strike. They are currently the third highest paid school teachers in the country ($72k average salary, $42k US average), and the highest paid in the state ($49k average). The area is not the third most expensive place to live in the country, though it is, overall, moderately affluent. The school district cut student services this year in order not to raise school taxes, and these vultures want to hold up the district for more money. My personal favorite sticking point is that they are only willing to pay $10/month for the top level health insurance they currently get for free. And they don't want the work year extended from 189 days to 191 days. (FWIW, $72k for 189 days = $100k for a full year job (260 days)) Full details on the holdup are at [url]http://crsd.org/q&a_9-2-02.htm[/url] Given the current economy, these folks are just a bunch of greedy rapacious bastards with no regard for their students. Or maybe this is just their way of not having to be in school on 9/11 and face the kids who lost parents at the WTC. [:(]
Link Posted: 9/3/2002 6:11:45 AM EDT
How do unions suck....let me count the ways. Can anyone say "baseball union?" Not that I care about baseball, but do multi-millionaires really NEED a union????
Link Posted: 9/3/2002 6:16:05 AM EDT
unions are a commie invention !!!!!!!! i hate'm !!!!!!!!
Link Posted: 9/3/2002 6:17:38 AM EDT
garandman - I could care less about the baseball player's union. I like baseball, but it's a game. If it goes away I'll find something else to watch when I get the urge to go to a sporting event in the summer. But this union is teachers. Their lack of contact with reality has a direct effect on my children. I live where I live because of the quality of the school district. I don't mind paying top dollar taxes for a quality education for my children. But this exemplifies the entire liberal "entitlement" mindset. They are well paid, they have a current contract (they're taking advantage of a new high school opening this year to renegotiate). And nothing that they want will in any way benefit the student population. This is greed, pure and sinple.
Link Posted: 9/3/2002 6:23:12 AM EDT
Any of you guys NRA or GOA members? Just curious.
Link Posted: 9/3/2002 6:33:10 AM EDT
Spade asked: Any of you guys NRA or GOA members?
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And there are no snakes in Ireland. What does that have to do with the topic of greedy teacher's unions?
Link Posted: 9/3/2002 6:33:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/3/2002 6:44:44 AM EDT by Garand_Shooter]
Link Posted: 9/3/2002 6:34:31 AM EDT
Hmmm, I'm a [url=www.nrtw.org] National Right to Work[/url] member. Does that count? [}:D] --LS
Link Posted: 9/3/2002 6:34:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/3/2002 6:40:16 AM EDT by garandman]
davidC - Didn't intend to make light of your situation. $72K is a professional salary. I'm not aware of any areas in PA where cost of living would justify such a salary. Maybe in Kali I could see it but be-geebers that's alot of money. Especially if you annualize their 9 months of salary, and adjust it for their 7-8 hour work days, compared to toher professionals 10 hour work days. And generally speaking, porfessionals (CPA's, lawyers, doctors) don't have unions. The only REAL solution is to get gov't out of the education business. Till that happens (right after they open a ski area and lodge in hell) your only real recourse is to wage war against these bandits. Lettters to the editor, schedule pickets, get news media attention, etc etc (in short, take on a second job of exposing the abuses) they got you tax payers by the uhhh, well, you know, and will continue extorting money from you.
Link Posted: 9/3/2002 6:37:37 AM EDT
They should close the school and reopen next year with a whole new staff. I have "zero tolerance" for this kind of bullshit.
Link Posted: 9/3/2002 6:37:38 AM EDT
I hate unions. [url]http://www.nilrr.org/corruption.htm[/url]
Link Posted: 9/3/2002 6:40:46 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DavidC: My kid's teachers have decided to go on strike. They are currently the third highest paid school teachers in the country ($72k average salary, $42k US average), and the highest paid in the state ($49k average). The area is not the third most expensive place to live in the country, though it is, overall, moderately affluent. The school district cut student services this year in order not to raise school taxes, and these vultures want to hold up the district for more money. My personal favorite sticking point is that they are only willing to pay $10/month for the top level health insurance they currently get for free. And they don't want the work year extended from 189 days to 191 days. (FWIW, $72k for 189 days = $100k for a full year job (260 days)) Full details on the holdup are at [url]http://crsd.org/q&a_9-2-02.htm[/url] Given the current economy, these folks are just a bunch of greedy rapacious bastards with no regard for their students. Or maybe this is just their way of not having to be in school on 9/11 and face the kids who lost parents at the WTC. [:(]
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I don't care how much money they make but I do care that they don't seem to be teaching our kids very much.
Link Posted: 9/3/2002 6:41:16 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter: If you are gonna compare GOA and the NRA to unions, save your breath. Those are VOLUNTARY oganizations that one joins to lobby the government for a common interest. Unions in most states are mandatory to join if one holds a certain job. They then use government protection (does the NRA have government protection) to put a stranglehold on the employers who thier members work for. The are beinificial to only the lower 50% of the work force, those who would otherwise be able to be fire because they are incompetent.
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You folks are condeming an organization because of some corrupt folks. This is like condeming the NRA because of the actions of some members. Either way, I'd hate to think of where my family would be without the miner's unions. I know they got a buddy of mine's dad enough money to live on when he broke his back in a deep shaft accident. And the NRA/GOA union analogy still stands. Not all unions are "closed shop". They are all still organizations that use a group to exert pressure. So if banding together as a group to get something is communist, I suggest you cancel your NRA membership.
Link Posted: 9/3/2002 6:45:17 AM EDT
$100,000 equivalent and they are deprived or taken for granted in some way. [rolleyes] Their salaries are paid by the general population who make considerable less on average (but we forget that and stick with the teacher-worship). Every year I went to high school they went on strike and classes were delayed with the work to be made up later. It never was. Also it doesn't really matter what the teachers make, if it's a poor or rich school district, because they always strike. Some people really are underpaid for what they do, or vis-a-vis their peer group; but in this case (described by David) it's just a question of getting what you can. The natural human condition...
Link Posted: 9/3/2002 6:46:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Spade: So if banding together as a group to get something is communist, I suggest you cancel your NRA membership.
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I can see the Marxcist re-education is complete. Congrats dude - you bought the big lie. In "spades." [}:D] Unions are about blackmailing employers. Just EXACTLY who is the NRA blackmailing???? Has the NRA threatened to withhold your American Rifleman mag UNLESS you send in MORE money??? NO WAY unions hold ANY similarity to NRA. Geez, dude. YOU are the prototype example of what is wrong with public school education.
Link Posted: 9/3/2002 6:48:45 AM EDT
David, Look at the bright side. While the socialist indoctrinators are on strike, you can give your kids a REAL education! Left-handed joke, but depressingly appropriate nonetheless....
Link Posted: 9/3/2002 6:51:06 AM EDT
DavidC - Really. Think carefully about getting your kids out of that hell-hole called the public school. SURE its expensive / requires sacrifices. But the country / freedoms you save may be your own.
Link Posted: 9/3/2002 6:51:08 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: Unions are about blackmailing employers.
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So, uh, when my great grandfather was getting less then a quarter a ton, and my grandfather was a breaker boy, they shouldn't have struck for better working conditions?
Geez, dude. YOU are the prototype example of what is wrong with public school education.
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Hardly, and it's bit misguided to make such an assumption from a single string of posts.
Link Posted: 9/3/2002 6:51:44 AM EDT
More good reasons to home school. [8D] Scott
Link Posted: 9/3/2002 6:54:14 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Spade:
Originally Posted By garandman: Unions are about blackmailing employers.
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So, uh, when my great grandfather was getting less then a quarter a ton, and my grandfather was a breaker boy, they shouldn't have struck for better working conditions? .
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NO, they should not have. They should have done what I did - and found a new job. Or opened their own mine, and put the "meanies" out of business. [rolleyes] Bitching about working conditions is NOT what made America great. Building a better mouse trap is.
Link Posted: 9/3/2002 6:57:40 AM EDT
Originally Posted By CactusJack: unions are a commie invention !!!!!!!! i hate'm !!!!!!!!
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Cactus, my, my but that's a very prickly answer from such a progressive thinker as you ! Unions are only Socialist and not Communist.
Link Posted: 9/3/2002 6:58:28 AM EDT
The school district is actually pretty good when it comes to education. There are a lot of very invoilved parents, and they don't get away with too much of the leftist viewpoint (heavily Republican area). Unions had a point at one time, as Spade's comments indicate. However, this strike is indicative of what's wrong with unions now. If Spade's great-grandfather was still alive (if he is, that's great), I would ask him what he thought about a union that would sacrifice cxhildren's eductaion so they can only pay .0017% of their earnings for health insurance better than that which 99% of the rest of the country has.
Link Posted: 9/3/2002 7:02:23 AM EDT
Unions are great...for the union heirarchy. Where else could slobs like one sees at the head of virtually all unions make that kind of money while doing nothing productive? BAsically, little Mafia bosses (and some not so little). ANd, how about the staff, committemen (or whatever they call them nowadays) with "super-seniority" who swagger around...worthless. Then, they milk the workers.
Link Posted: 9/3/2002 7:03:21 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: NO, they should not have. They should have done what I did - and found a new job. Or opened their own mine, and put the "meanies" out of business. [rolleyes] Bitching about working conditions is NOT what made America great. Building a better mouse trap is.
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I could write an argument about the coal industry in PA, and Irish workers, and all that, but I really don't have the time. I'll just say that a)Read up on the coal industry b)The other job availble would've been building a railroad. Alright, what do you do when the only jobs availble to you suck and odds are that you'll get killed while doing it (which means your family loses their housing, and you have no savings due to the company store, which is the only store allowed in town)? I'll give you that some unions suck. Suck hard. But to condemn a group simply because of the actions of some, or because of where the idea came from, is well, for lack of a better word, kinda stupid. My buddy's dad was treated well by his bosses, had no reason to change jobs, up until his accident. Mine wanted to just cut him off with no way to work or pay his medical bills (which was in his contract, they just didn't want to honor it), and he didn't have enough money to sue (and how much would a lawyer have let him keep). Union kept his head above water.
Link Posted: 9/3/2002 7:03:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/3/2002 7:08:01 AM EDT by CAMPYBOB]
"$72K is a professional salary." ...and teaching is a profession. do you really think teaching is 'only' a 189-day-year job? that there is no such thing as continuing education requirements, additional training, seminars, coaching hours, additional state requirements to be met, etc.? "I'm not aware of any areas in PA where cost of living would justify such a salary." wth are you talking about? c.o.l. 'justifying' a salary? come again. that's bordering on socialism. what was that saying? "to each, according to his needs"! "Maybe in Kali I could see it but be-geebers that's alot of money." amazing. it's called "capitalism". i got out of teaching over 20 years ago. wanna know why? i couldn't pay my (then) meager, single dude's bills on my salary. i watched many talented educators leave the profession over the last 25 years. now, their salarys are up to snuff (not in many areas of the country, though) in what may well be the most critical job in the country, but only after decades of bitching and fighting for the money. that's how capitalism works. i had a choice. if i wanted to earn more moolah, i had to change careers and look elsewhere. david has choices, also. leave the area. campaign for lower taxes, earn more money to cover his district's expenses, private schools...whatever. collective bargaining works. i think i sense some jealousy in a few of the above replies. i guess we should adopt some truely communist rules and just mandate that teachers will be paid $25k per anum by order of the peoples' kommissar for state education.
Link Posted: 9/3/2002 7:06:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/3/2002 7:10:39 AM EDT by Spade]
Originally Posted By DavidC: The school district is actually pretty good when it comes to education. There are a lot of very invoilved parents, and they don't get away with too much of the leftist viewpoint (heavily Republican area). Unions had a point at one time, as Spade's comments indicate. However, this strike is indicative of what's wrong with unions now. If Spade's great-grandfather was still alive (if he is, that's great), I would ask him what he thought about a union that would sacrifice cxhildren's eductaion so they can only pay .0017% of their earnings for health insurance better than that which 99% of the rest of the country has.
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I agree with this. DavidC's local union is simply overstepping it's bounds here and has no leg to stand on. There are ways to deal with that too. If you feel that way, well, go to a school board meeting. I know a bunch of people who are graduating who want to teach and are hard pressed to find jobs. And where do you live? My mom is a bio teacher and my sister is thinking about English and would both kill for that salery (although my mom prefers private school teaching).
Link Posted: 9/3/2002 7:08:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/3/2002 7:10:32 AM EDT by shooter69]
Some unions may be needed. Most here do not go on strike every single year, like the teachers. If they all did we would end up like France! [img]http://www.rapidforum.at/smilies/b20.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 9/3/2002 7:09:29 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/3/2002 7:09:52 AM EDT
I will fight for my right to be in a Union as much as I will fight for my right to keep my guns. The Union has been great for me and my family, fair wages, insurance benefits for me and my family, and safe working conditions. Your comments that all Unions suck are just plain ignorant and really show your stupidity. Your comments are the same as people who say all guns kill people and should be taken away. I've never heard of a public school teacher making $72,000 per year. Is this a public school? Iv'e several friends who are teacher and they don't even make 40'000 per year. Your statement about the teachers paying $10.00 for insurance is just for single people not family coverage.
Link Posted: 9/3/2002 7:12:49 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter: Here is another good example. A They unioned themselves out of a job.
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That's their right isn't it?
Link Posted: 9/3/2002 7:15:17 AM EDT
Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB: "$72K is a professional salary." ...and teaching is a profession. do you really think teaching is 'only' a 189-day-year job? that there is no such thing as continuing education requirements, additional training, seminars, coaching hours, additional state requirements to be met, etc.?
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The point being, that since they ARE getting paid a profesasionals salary, why do teachers have unions when few other profession (lawyers. doctors, CPA's) have unions???? The whole idea of unions is that their membership is TOO STUPID to effect change the way PROFESSIONALS do - by talking out changes with business owners, suggesting cost savings to their employer, by THINKING like BUSINESS OWNERS and finding ways to improve the business, and at the same time improve their own lot as employees. So, if teachers are TOO STUPID to effect change the way PROFESSIONALS do, maybe they are TOO STUPID to be teaching other peoples kids. They get paid like professionals. Its time they start ACTING like professions, and not like Jimmy Hoffa teamsters.
Link Posted: 9/3/2002 7:17:18 AM EDT
The school district is Council Rock, in PA (see the link in my original message). $10 for a single, $25 for a family, which is way less than $10 for a family of four.
Link Posted: 9/3/2002 7:19:52 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: The point being, that since they ARE getting paid a profesasionals salary, why do teachers have unions when few other profession (lawyers. doctors, CPA's) have unions???? The whole idea of unions is that their membership is TOO STUPID to effect change the way PROFESSIONALS do - by talking out changes with business owners, suggesting cost savings to their employer, by THINKING like BUSINESS OWNERS and finding ways to improve the business, and at the same time improve their own lot as employees.
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a)Yes you are right. Doctors don't have a union. And now PA doctors are fighting a losing battle against insurance rates and trying to get the state government to pass some legislation so they can afford malpractice insurance. I bet if they had some organization the good ones wouldn't all be leaving this area. Great, they're unorganized and I get shitty health care. b)Never delt with a school board on a daily basis, have you?
Link Posted: 9/3/2002 7:24:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/3/2002 7:27:27 AM EDT by garandman]
Originally Posted By Spade: b)Never delt with a school board on a daily basis, have you?
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Not on a daily basis, but my limited experience has pushed me toward this conclusion: Their collective intelligence wouldn't fill a thimble. They are usually career "ejikaturz" so indoctrinated into "Liberal think" and gov't entitlement that they wouldn't recognize capitalism and its benefits if it bit them on the nose.
Link Posted: 9/3/2002 7:27:20 AM EDT
"The point being, that since they ARE getting paid a profesasionals salary, why do teachers have unions when few other profession (lawyers. doctors, CPA's) have unions????" that is not a point. it is an observation. 'why' don't other professions have unions? perhaps it is because we are too dis-organized. "The whole idea of unions is that their membership is TOO STUPID to effect change the way PROFESSIONALS do - by talking out changes with business owners, suggesting cost savings to their employer, by THINKING like BUSINESS OWNERS and finding ways to improve the business, and at the same time improve their own lot as employees." is that right? and here i thought it was to increase compensation and improve working conditions. damn, am i living in a dream world, or what? "So, if teachers are TOO STUPID to effect change the way PROFESSIONALS do, maybe they are TOO STUPID to be teaching other peoples kids." one hellova leap in logic, there. so, you postulate that educators are 'stupid'? guess what? the joke's on you. "They get paid like professionals. Its time they start ACTING like professions, and not like Jimmy Hoffa teamsters." hmmm? yes, as 'professionals' they should just vote themselves a 25% pay cut. THAT would certainly show the world how 'smart' they are.
Link Posted: 9/3/2002 7:28:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/3/2002 7:30:30 AM EDT by shooter69]
I've never heard of a public school teacher making $72,000 per year. Is this a public school?
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Yes. In CT a friend makes $10k more than that.
Originally Posted By garandman: They are usually career "educators" so indoctrinated into "Liberal think" and gov't entitlement that they wouldn't recognize capitalism and its benefits if it bit them on the nose.
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Exactly. Many teachers/college professors are seemingly without a clue that capitalism's taxes keep them in the middle class.
Link Posted: 9/3/2002 7:32:46 AM EDT
As a teacher educator in Texas, I think our Texas teachers very underpaid for the job that they do and they are not in a union. If you look across the nation, teachers that are in unions make more money than teacher not in union. The reason, they can strike if mistreated by management. I have lived and worked as a teacher educator in both Pennsylvania and Texas...I understand both points of view. I have relatives that work as non-union teacher in Texas and those that work as union teachers in Pennsylvania. There are good and bad points to each. HOWEVER, THOSE THAT WORK IN A UNION ARE MORE FAIRLY COMPENSATED THAN THOSE IN A NON-UNION ENVIRONMENT (e.g., work conditions, salary, health benefits). In Texas, we have a severe teacher shortage due to poor work conditions, salaries, and benefits when compared to industry....our perspective teachers are choosing industry. I'm not a teacher, I'm not in the union. However, the union has made substaintial improvements in the life of workers. I've read lots of people commenting the great $$$ per days worked. We need teachers: When reality hits, the job isn't as great as it seems...The profession is a service profession with all of the good and bad parts. I won't even start on homeschooling...I'll stop now.....before I really start. Flameproof pants on.... Jeff
Link Posted: 9/3/2002 7:33:11 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: Not on a daily basis, but my limited experience has pushed me toward this conclusion: Their collective intelligence wouldn't fill a thimble. They are usually career "educators" so indoctrinated into "Liberal think" and gov't entitlement that they wouldn't recognize capitalism and its benefits if it bit them on the nose.
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Correct. It's worse here in PA. You should see the public school board in my town. You can't deal with these people on a rational level. Thus, it usually comes down to "Good Christ, you people are all morons. Do this or we walk" Most school board people who are educators, got there because they're dumb. Really, most admin too. I've only ever had two good principles. They became principles to make a difference. The otheres were there because a)they knew somebody on the board b)they were too dangerous to be anywhere else.
Link Posted: 9/3/2002 7:34:01 AM EDT
Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB: "They get paid like professionals. Its time they start ACTING like professions, and not like Jimmy Hoffa teamsters." hmmm? yes, as 'professionals' they should just vote themselves a 25% pay cut. THAT would certainly show the world how 'smart' they are.
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You say I'm making a logical leap - and you infer that EVERY professional votes himself a 25% pay cut???? They should get paid WHATEVER the market will bear. They SHOULD NOT have the ability to blackmail the school district (and by extension parents) and play "chicken" with taxpayers with childrens education as their blackmail leverage. Reagan fired all those air traffic controllers for striking. I'f i were Prez, I'd fire EVERY teacher who went on strike. My experience is there are PLENTY of qualified people out their willing to do the job (good friend of mine waited SEVEN YEARS to get his teaching job) its time teachers start ACTING like professionals, and not like common street thugs, holding peoples children hostage. Its despicable.
Link Posted: 9/3/2002 7:36:24 AM EDT
I am a proud union Pipefitter. I could be non union if I wanted to. I've worked both sides. No comparison. I choose to be union. It has been a true blessing to me.
Link Posted: 9/3/2002 7:39:59 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Spade:
Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter: Here is another good example. A They unioned themselves out of a job.
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That's their right isn't it?
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No, actually, it is not their right. Union members are so caught up in the socialsim of the situation, they don't seem to realize that other people own those buisinesses. Not the union workers (unless of course they are worker/owners, then you can bet they are not affiliated with any unions). Unionism = Socialism, the funny thing is, get a unionist here involved in a thread on socialsim, and they will be the first ones to say that Socialsim never has worked, and never can work. But touch on the Socialist doctrine of their unions and you are goring a sacred ox. The hypocracy is unmitigated, but entertaing. (unless it is my business the unions are running into the ground, this week).
Link Posted: 9/3/2002 7:42:52 AM EDT
Originally Posted By drjeffallen: I have relatives that work as non-union teacher in Texas and those that work as union teachers in Pennsylvania. There are good and bad points to each. HOWEVER, THOSE THAT WORK IN A UNION ARE MORE FAIRLY COMPENSATED THAN THOSE IN A NON-UNION ENVIRONMENT (e.g., work conditions, salary, health benefits).
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Yes, putting a metaphorical gun to peoples heads is IMMENSELY "effective." You talk about "fair." Is it "fair" that people lose their homes to pay for that bloody school cranking out illiterates??? Is it fair that TENS OF THOUSANDS, possibly HUNDREDS OF THOUNDS of people who NEVER use the school system should have 90% of their property taxes and 60% of their state income taxes go for a school system that (1) they will NEVER use, and (2) that teaches EVERYTHING they disgree with- religiously, politically, philosophically, morally, ethically, etc etc??? But by God, a few teachers get "fair" pay. [rolleyes]
Link Posted: 9/3/2002 7:42:58 AM EDT
Saying that the only reason Unions are around is because their members are too stupid to effect change really shows how ignorant you are about Unions. The Union I am in always works with the company to cut costs and find ways to get production up. Do you really think a company is going to change things because one person wants a change? I think its more effective to get things changed when 300 people want change. Why would a lawyer, cpa, doctor need a Union they mostly work for themselves and decide what their pay, benefits, and working conditions will be. If you really think change will happen with one person then please tell the NRA they are no longer needed and that you will gladly fight for our gun rights after all the government is a business and I'm sure they will listen to everything you have to say.
Link Posted: 9/3/2002 7:43:01 AM EDT
Originally Posted By drjeffallen: I won't even start on homeschooling...I'll stop now.....before I really start. Flameproof pants on.... Jeff
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I've met some good homeschooled kids. But at the semi-private school I went to in Alabama, most of them flunked out. It's a decent idea, and your right, but I mean, my dad's got a Ph.D in Chemistry, but I wouldn't trust him to teach me the ins and outs of Brit Lit, or Civil War history. If your public school sucks (and most of 'em do) get your kids in a private school. Really doesn't matter what kind (at my Catholic school in PA we had Methodists, Jews, etc. And in AL we sent my little sister to a Protestant private school. In both places the public schools were really bad.) as long as it's private. Most places can get you tuition assistance if that's a problem. Private is really the way to go.
Link Posted: 9/3/2002 7:43:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/3/2002 7:44:22 AM EDT by drjeffallen]
Originally Posted By garandman: They are usually career "educators" so indoctrinated into "Liberal think" and gov't entitlement that they wouldn't recognize capitalism and its benefits if it bit them on the nose.
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Exactly. Many teachers/college professors are seemingly without a clue that capitalism's taxes keep them in the middle class.
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Please give me a clue. As a college professor.....it seems that I need your help.
Link Posted: 9/3/2002 7:49:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/3/2002 7:53:20 AM EDT by garandman]
Originally Posted By drjeffallen: Exactly. Many teachers/college professors are seemingly without a clue that capitalism's taxes keep them in the middle class. Please give me a clue. As a college professor.....it seems that I need your help.
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yeah, you are apparently CLUELESS. A FOUNDATIONAL principle tenet of capitalism is LETTING THE CAPITALIST KEEP AS MUCH OF HIS [b]CAPITAL[/b] AS POSSIBLE. "Capitalist taxes" is as much of a paradox as "Marxist capitalism." What MOST of America is clueless about is that many, many teachers pay NO Social Security at all, and then get a HUGE, and I mean HUGE fricken pension at the end of a 20-30 year career, when they are 50-55 years old, and have ALOT of good productivity in them.
Link Posted: 9/3/2002 7:49:38 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: Is it fair that TENS OF THOUSANDS, possibly HUNDREDS OF THOUNDS of people who NEVER use the school system should have 90% of their property taxes and 60% of their state income taxes go for a school system that (1) they will NEVER use, and (2) that teaches EVERYTHING they disgree with- religiously, politically, philosophically, morally, ethically, etc etc???
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I know wacko liberals who pay taxes willingly despite knowing the money goes to fund the military when they are ardent pacifists. They're stupid too.
Link Posted: 9/3/2002 7:51:52 AM EDT
Originally Posted By illinois: The Union I am in always works with the company to cut costs and find ways to get production up. Do you really think a company is going to change things because one person wants a change? .
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You show a business owner a way to save a few bucks, and he'll drink that "one person's" urine if it'll make it happen. Unions are unnecessary at best, and marxist tools of blackmail at worst. I have no knowledge of your particular union, so I'll assume the best.
Link Posted: 9/3/2002 7:52:12 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman:
Originally Posted By drjeffallen: I have relatives that work as non-union teacher in Texas and those that work as union teachers in Pennsylvania. There are good and bad points to each. HOWEVER, THOSE THAT WORK IN A UNION ARE MORE FAIRLY COMPENSATED THAN THOSE IN A NON-UNION ENVIRONMENT (e.g., work conditions, salary, health benefits).
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Yes, putting a metaphorical gun to peoples heads is IMMENSELY "effective." You talk about "fair." Is it "fair" that people lose their homes to pay for that bloody school cranking out illiterates??? Is it fair that TENS OF THOUSANDS, possibly HUNDREDS OF THOUNDS of people who NEVER use the school system should have 90% of their property taxes and 60% of their state income taxes go for a school system that (1) they will NEVER use, and (2) that teaches EVERYTHING they disgree with- religiously, politically, philosophically, morally, ethically, etc etc??? But by God, a few teachers get "fair" pay. [rolleyes]
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What do you think are fair work conditions for teachers? Where in the economic scale to you think that they need to be? "Is it fair that TENS OF THOUSANDS, possibly HUNDREDS OF THOUNDS of people who NEVER use the school system should have 90% of their property taxes and 60% of their state income taxes go for a school system " Yes. An uneducated population is extremely damaging to a countries economic conditions. Professionals are not trained without eductors. You make the assumption that everyone was born with the knowledge of their job, profession, how to read, write, etc. Agree or disagree with the curriculum taught but be involved in changing it. Write the books that are used and adopted rather than bitching and complaining about what is being taught. Jeff
Link Posted: 9/3/2002 7:52:27 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: What MOST of America is clueless about is that many, many teachers pay NO Social Security at all,
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That's funny. It must have been a misprint on my parent's checks all these years. Evidently the government owes them a lot of money. I'm glad you pointed this out.
Link Posted: 9/3/2002 7:55:10 AM EDT
Originally Posted By hielo: No, actually, it is not their right.
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Sure it is. If they had all quit over bad conditions, the company would have folded just the same.
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