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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/25/2005 8:42:46 AM EDT
I wandered into my local purveyor of fine firearms the other day... "You have any 5.56mm NATO?"
"Umm.. 223?"
"No, 5.56mm. The casing's a little different"
"Let me look..... nope"
"Hmm. Odd. OK, I'll try Reed's so"

I drive over to Reed's.

"Got any 5.56mm NATO?"
"I don't think so.. let me see.... Nope. I guess I can order you some though. You in a hurry?"
"No... I'll try elsewhere though"

Hop over to the third major local firearms store..
"Any 5.56mm NATO?"
"I have .223. Will it shoot that?"
"Yes, but I'd rather shoot what the rifle was designed for"
"Hmm.. You might try "Mad Joe's" up by the Oregon border" (Or whatever the name was)

I'd have thought that 5.56mm would be one of the most common cartridge rounds around. Really rather surprising.

NTM
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 8:44:14 AM EDT
Last I heard there was some sort of war going on, I'm not sure if this is true but if it is it might account for the lack of ammo.






Digital
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 8:44:34 AM EDT
There's a war on, genius. The military was talking about buying up 5.56 from Taiwan months ago.
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 8:45:32 AM EDT

You guys know Moran served in Afghanistan, right?
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 8:46:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/25/2005 8:47:15 AM EDT by TexasSIG]
and there is a point in here somewhere?
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 8:48:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Manic_Moran:
I wandered into my local purveyor of fine firearms the other day... "You have any 5.56mm NATO?"
"Umm.. 223?"
"No, 5.56mm. The casing's a little different"
"Let me look..... nope"
"Hmm. Odd. OK, I'll try Reed's so"

I drive over to Reed's.

"Got any 5.56mm NATO?"
"I don't think so.. let me see.... Nope. I guess I can order you some though. You in a hurry?"
"No... I'll try elsewhere though"

Hop over to the third major local firearms store..
"Any 5.56mm NATO?"
"I have .223. Will it shoot that?"
"Yes, but I'd rather shoot what the rifle was designed for"
"Hmm.. You might try "Mad Joe's" up by the Oregon border" (Or whatever the name was)

I'd have thought that 5.56mm would be one of the most common cartridge rounds around. Really rather surprising.

NTM



And it would have taken 5 minutes to order it from Ammoman, et al.
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 8:51:20 AM EDT
Walmart 223 REM 40rd value pack $7.47 all day long

FREE
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 8:51:49 AM EDT
While it is true that the war is reducing the supply of 5.56 available to the public, that is not the main reason why .223 is more common. Remember that you can use .223 in either a .223 or 5.56 chamber, where as it is generally not a good idea to use 5.56 in a .223. Also, most stores cater to the hunting/varminting crowd.

That being said, I found plenty of Q3131a at my local Dick's Sporting Goods only a few weeks ago, so it is out there.
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 8:52:28 AM EDT
I noticed the same thing when I lived in Kali.

There's no shortage of XM193 or Q3131A here at the Ohio funshows. I just bought 1000rds of Lake City for $186 out the door earlier this month. California gunshows SUCK. I can only stare at pretty wood stocked and overpriced "hunting and sporting arms" for so long.

Ya, there's a war going on, but I don't understand why people keep complaining about a "shortage". Hell, you can still buy it online from any number of dealers.
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 9:16:20 AM EDT
Unless I'm far wrong, I seem to recall that there was some form of prohibition against internet ordering ammunition into California. If I am wrong, please let me know, and I'll get right onto ordering!

The war was on when I was in Ft Knox, and I had absolutely no problems finding 5.56. I find it hard to believe that the civilian market would be that under-supported.

NTM
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 9:20:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/25/2005 9:22:19 AM EDT by SteyrAUG]

Originally Posted By Manic_Moran:
Unless I'm far wrong, I seem to recall that there was some form of prohibition against internet ordering ammunition into California. If I am wrong, please let me know, and I'll get right onto ordering!

The war was on when I was in Ft Knox, and I had absolutely no problems finding 5.56. I find it hard to believe that the civilian market would be that under-supported.

NTM



I would imagine if there is a local Kali prohibition about ordering ammo from the internet there is also probably some gay restriction regarding what local dealers can order or stock. Probably why everyone has .223 and not 5.56 NATO.

If it were me I'd day trip across the border to a free state and stock up on a few cases of 5.56.
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 9:22:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/25/2005 9:23:52 AM EDT by streetfighter]

Originally Posted By Manic_Moran:

"No, 5.56mm. The casing's a little different"


No it's not



"I have .223. Will it shoot that?"
"Yes, but I'd rather shoot what the rifle was designed for"



The rifle was designed to fire a .224 calibre bullet from a brass case that is designed for .223 Rem.
5.56 is only a designation. They're both the same except for pressure.
Go and try buying 5.56 brass or dies.....

The only reason for buying surplus 5.56 is because it's cheaper than factory .223. And probably more accurate too.
But factory .223 has far more quality control applied to it, so it is a viable alternative.
The only downside is that because surplus 5.56 has higher pressures, it has higher velocity. But that only matters at longer range, where, if you really care about accuracy, you wouldn't be shooting surplus anyway.

And if you are concerned that there is a shortage of ammo...well that's why God invented the reloading press

Mark
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 9:30:45 AM EDT
Buy some .223, whats the matter with you? The differences only matter if you go 5.56 to .223 chamber, ALL OF IT 5.56 or .223 will fire ina 5.56 mm chamber safely.

Unless you are specifically looking for surplus military, then ask for as Surplus military .223.

Most gunshop owners i've met have the Firearms knowledge of Chuckie Schumer so you have to make it simple for them when you ask for something.

Hell, I had the local gunshop Tactical Expert who worked the handgun and Semi auto rifle section of the store tell me Pre ban Magazines won't lock into a post ban Ar-15, I told him "You know thats funny because i have a Pre ban magazine in my Post ban Bushmaster right now and it hasn't fell out or malfunctioned yet.........Weird!!!!!!!
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 9:35:08 AM EDT
Oh and BTW, Just got some M-855 Nato headstamped 04' WCC three days ago! Winchester Contract ammo for the Defense department. And further more bought 400 Rds. of M-80 7.62 Nato Ball marked Lake city last week!

Yup Military chambered ammo is HARD TO GET!!
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 9:37:31 AM EDT
just shoot the .223


Sgatr15
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 9:39:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BayEagle:
You guys know Moran served in Afghanistan, right?



Iraq too.
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 9:39:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/25/2005 9:40:13 AM EDT by dpmmn]
THere is no shortages here


Link Posted: 8/25/2005 9:42:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Manic_Moran:
Unless I'm far wrong, I seem to recall that there was some form of prohibition against internet ordering ammunition into California. If I am wrong, please let me know, and I'll get right onto ordering!


NTM



Unless something has changed since I left the PRK in January you can order ammo through the mail. I know that I did many times while I was stationed there.


Start ordering;
www.ammoman.com/
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 9:47:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By streetfighter:
They're both the same except for pressure.



So they are different.

A statement that they are the same should not include "except", "but", "although", etc....





Link Posted: 8/25/2005 9:48:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Manic_Moran:
"Umm.. 223?"
"No, 5.56mm. The casing's a little different"

NTM



You need to read this;

www.ammo-oracle.com/body.htm
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 9:51:53 AM EDT
I thought I had read somewhere that the case walls were thicker on NATO brass.

Is that a fact?
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 9:54:13 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 9:58:18 AM EDT
No difference in the two that you'll ever notice. (except maybe crimped primers)

Bought two cases of Winchester from Sportsman's Warehouse day before yesterday. They had 5 pallets still wrapped.
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 10:04:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:
I thought I had read somewhere that the case walls were thicker on NATO brass.

Is that a fact?


I've only noticed that with 7.62x51 vs .308Win. Sometimes LC 5.56 brass is thicker, but the variance between lots is as great as the variance between brands of 5.56 and .223 cases.

Pressure and chamber throat specifications are the only 5.56 and .223 differences that matter.
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 10:10:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/25/2005 10:11:22 AM EDT by WildBoar]

Originally Posted By FREEFALLE7:
Walmart 223 REM 40rd value pack $7.47 all day long

FREE



I have yet to see that at a Wal Mart near me.

I did pick up 2 boxes of soft points just in case I need to play looter skeet after the Hurricane tonight.
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 10:11:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Manic_Moran:
Unless I'm far wrong, I seem to recall that there was some form of prohibition against internet ordering ammunition into California. If I am wrong, please let me know, and I'll get right onto ordering!

The war was on when I was in Ft Knox, and I had absolutely no problems finding 5.56. I find it hard to believe that the civilian market would be that under-supported.

NTM


There's no prohibition on internet sales in most of CA. According to Sportsman's Guide though, Marin, Napa, Ventura, and Yolo County can't have ammo shipped to them as well as the city of Sacramento. Other sources (CTD) only state Sacremento as having a problem.
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 10:18:17 AM EDT
Quit Picking on this guy!

His rifle was genetically bred for 5.56mm Nato, and nothing less! Would you put pump gas in a TOP FUEL DRAGSTER? Of course not!
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 10:25:52 AM EDT
LOL... OK, OK... I'm duly chastised.

I knew there was a difference, I just didn't know what. It was actually the second guy in the shop who told the first guy that the difference is 'in the shoulder of the casing'. I made the evident mistake of believing that he was right! Though all things considered, even if the difference is minimal, I'd rather shoot the designed round.

The Sacramento thing might be what I had heard. Could have been mixing the two up.

Never went to Afghanistan.

NTM
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 10:27:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/25/2005 10:32:17 AM EDT by TacticalStrat]
From The AmmoOracle:

Q. What is the difference between 5.56×45mm and .223 Remington ammo?


In the 1950's, the US military adopted the metric system of measurement and uses metric measurements to describe ammo. However, the US commercial ammo market typically used the English "caliber" measurements when describing ammo. "Caliber" is a shorthand way of saying "hundredths (or thousandths) of an inch." For example, a fifty caliber projectile is approximately fifty one-hundredths (.50) of an inch and a 357 caliber projectile is approximately three-hundred and fifty-seven thousandths (.357) of an inch. Dimensionally, 5.56 and .223 ammo are identical, though military 5.56 ammo is typically loaded to higher pressures and velocities than commercial ammo and may, in guns with extremely tight "match" .223 chambers, be unsafe to fire.

The chambers for .223 and 5.56 weapons are not the same either. Though the AR15 design provides an extremely strong action, high pressure signs on the brass and primers, extraction failures and cycling problems may be seen when firing hot 5.56 ammo in .223-chambered rifles. Military M16s and AR15s from Colt, Bushmaster, FN, DPMS, and some others, have the M16-spec chamber and should have no trouble firing hot 5.56 ammunition.

Military M16s have slightly more headspace and have a longer throat area, compared to the SAAMI .223 chamber spec, which was originally designed for bolt-action rifles. Commercial SAAMI-specification .223 chambers have a much shorter throat or leade and less freebore than the military chamber. Shooting 5.56 Mil-Spec ammo in a SAAMI-specification chamber can increase pressure dramatically, up to an additional 15,000 psi or more.

The military chamber is often referred to as a "5.56 NATO" chamber, as that is what is usually stamped on military barrels. Some commercial AR manufacturers use the tighter ".223" (i.e., SAAMI-spec and often labeled ".223" or ".223 Remington") chamber, which provides for increased accuracy but, in self-loading rifles, less cycling reliability, especially with hot-loaded military ammo. A few AR manufacturers use an in-between chamber spec, such as the Wylde chamber. Many mis-mark their barrels too, which further complicates things. You can generally tell what sort of chamber you are dealing with by the markings, if any, on the barrel, but always check with the manufacturer to be sure.

Typical Colt Mil-Spec-type markings: C MP 5.56 NATO 1/7

Typical Bushmaster markings: B MP 5.56 NATO 1/9 HBAR

DPMS marks their barrels ".223", though they actually have 5.56 chambers.

Olympic Arms marks their barrels with "556", with some additionally marked "SS" or "SUM." This marking is used on all barrels, even older barrels that used .223 chambers and current target models that also use .223 chambers. Non-target barrels made since 2001 should have 5.56 chambers.

Armalite typically doesn't mark their barrels. A2 and A4 models had .223 chambers until mid-2001, and have used 5.56 chambers since. The (t) models use .223 match chambers.

Rock River Arms uses the Wylde chamber specs on most rifles, and does not mark their barrels.

Most other AR manufacturers' barrels are unmarked, and chamber dimensions are unknown.

Opinion: In general it is a bad idea to attempt to fire 5.56 rounds (e.g., M193, M855) in .223 chambers, particularly with older rifles.


Fact: SAAMI specifically warns against the use of 5.56mm ammo in .223 chambers. The .223 SAAMI specification was originally made with bolt rifles in mind.

For more see the SAAMI website ammo warning.


5.56 v. .223 Remington specification.



Fact: The different manufacturer's chamber types are listed at length and in great detail at: The Maryland AR15 Shooters Site.

Q. Which should I be looking for in an AR15, a 5.56 NATO or .223 Remington chamber?
This is really a matter of the role for which you plan to use your AR. .223 Remington chambers will give you slightly better accuracy, which is important for a match or varmint rifle. Any loss of feeding and cycling reliability and the restriction against shooting military ammo isn't as important as the accuracy gains for a rifle used in these roles, because for these rifles, accuracy is everything. People who just want to plink or who plan to shoot military ammo (such as most of the cheap surplus ammo available), and especially those who may use their AR as a weapon, should choose 5.56 chambers.

Q. How can I tell if a round is SAAMI, US military, or 5.56 NATO Mil-Spec?

Generally if the round is an M193, M855, M196, M856, or SS-109 round it is Mil-Spec. This FAQ will help you determine the differences between these specs. Often Mil-Spec rounds sold commercially have similar model numbers, like XM-193. Another good clue (but not definitive evidence) is the presence of the NATO cross in a circle on the headstamp. Ammo that has a painted tip (Green for M855) is generally always military ammo.

Generally you don't have to worry unless you're using a .223-chambered rifle, but it's a good idea to check regardless. Of course, if you have a Mil-Spec chamber, you needn't bother.

NOTE: All bets are off if the ammo in question has been "remanufactured" or "reloaded." There's no way to know what you've got with reloads, other than the reputation of the reloader.
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 11:08:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BayEagle:
You guys know Moran served in Afghanistan, right?

Then he's twice as .
Folks hording it all over, units buying up all they can get, police using it more and more, ONE Govt manf plant (just contractually increased to two, this week), and ammo going out at such a prodigious rate that we are buying some from Israel AND Taiwan.
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 11:11:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:

Originally Posted By streetfighter:
They're both the same except for pressure.



So they are different.

A statement that they are the same should not include "except", "but", "although", etc....






Balls. Shoot .223 in a 5.56-stamped barrel all day long. Don't shoot 5.56 in a .223-stamped bbl. That simple.

If you have a choice of bbls in ANY weapon, choose the 5.56 and you'll be able to fire BOTH, as needed.
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 11:23:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/25/2005 11:26:10 AM EDT by streetfighter]

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:

Originally Posted By streetfighter:
They're both the same except for pressure.



So they are different.

A statement that they are the same should not include "except", "but", "although", etc....








I meant the dimensions (you knew that)
Mark
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 6:43:56 PM EDT
And dont buy wolf ammo marked .223 Rem,cause it's not!!!!!

I seperated all my 556 from my 223 Rem,cause my colt will gobble up either!


But my Rem 700 in .223 doesn't like 5.56 and will lock up with any wolf 223 Rem!!!!!


Your rifle is just as good as the ammo you feed it!!!! Just like your computer(garbage in,garbage out)!!!

Bob
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 6:48:35 PM EDT
Lol,Reeds.I bought my Berreta 9mm there when I got out of the service.Good old San Ho.
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 6:58:27 PM EDT
I've got 6 boxes of XM193 I can't get rid of, what shortage are you talking about?

Link Posted: 8/25/2005 7:02:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By streetfighter:

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:

Originally Posted By streetfighter:
They're both the same except for pressure.



So they are different.

A statement that they are the same should not include "except", "but", "although", etc....








I meant the dimensions (you knew that)
Mark



Yes, I knew that......

Link Posted: 8/25/2005 7:18:38 PM EDT
My son went to Afghanistan in July, before they went, they had to shoot off their whole ammo allotment. He had a great day at the range. He has seen no ammo shortage. As far as I am concerned, as long as the poeple who really need it have it, I can live with a shortage at home. However, I haven't seen any real shortage at home either. Recently picked up a case of Q3131A for $207 as a shop in western NY.
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