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Posted: 3/11/2005 8:42:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/11/2005 8:44:31 PM EDT by StormSurge]
I don't get it Doctor Binky...we've seen the new Army Times article where they are soliciting M-16/M-4 replacements...now, SOCOM has just selected an M-4 replacement after what were probably comprehensive trials...so now the taxpayer is gonna have to shell out some more money for even more tests for yet another rifle?

Also: SOCOM has the new whiz-bang Mk 46 and 48 emgees; what, are they too good for the rest of the military? Now the Army wants this new "weapons system" to include a Machine Gun variant of the basic rifle...but, its been proven time and time again that LMGs derived from rifles are not practcal...

Plus other trends away from standardization (and economy of scale production/pricing) like the new uniforms: MARPAT. ACU. Air Force cloud cammies, and Navy gangsta threads...when will it all end?

XM-8 article here
Link Posted: 3/11/2005 8:44:46 PM EDT
It is usually wise to give the first batch of newest and best weapons to the guys that will actually be using them first.

Plus this way all the bugs will be worked out before they get to the regular army personnel.

SGat1r5
Link Posted: 3/11/2005 8:46:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By StormSurge:Mk 46 and 48 emgees



WE NEED PICS!!!

Link Posted: 3/11/2005 8:50:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/11/2005 8:54:12 PM EDT by Painter]
cut to the chase
watch the 100 rd dump
www.armedforcesjournal.com/blackwater/xm81.html

while you are at it, watch all this stuff again---the Todd Jarrett vids are kewl
www.armedforcesjournal.com/blackwater/videos.html

Link Posted: 3/11/2005 8:51:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/11/2005 8:54:31 PM EDT by StormSurge]
Link Posted: 3/11/2005 9:20:05 PM EDT
What does the S in SOCOM stand for?
There is your answer.

They do different work than the rest of the Army, and therefore use different tools. They are also better trained, and could therefore be reasonably expected to use and maintain special equipment that the average soldier wouldn't.
Link Posted: 3/11/2005 9:27:06 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/11/2005 9:34:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/11/2005 9:35:52 PM EDT by StormSurge]

Originally Posted By joker581:
What does the S in SOCOM stand for?
There is your answer.

They do different work than the rest of the Army, and therefore use different tools. They are also better trained, and could therefore be reasonably expected to use and maintain special equipment that the average soldier wouldn't.



Guns are guns. Soldiers are soldiers. Look beyond the "special" hype; if these guns are so good, why does the average infantryman not rate one? He's not "special" enough? He doesn't rate the best tools to survive? He isn't worthy enough? He should maybe die because the "special" guys only are allowed to have the best equipment?
Link Posted: 3/11/2005 9:53:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By StormSurge:

Originally Posted By joker581:
What does the S in SOCOM stand for?
There is your answer.

They do different work than the rest of the Army, and therefore use different tools. They are also better trained, and could therefore be reasonably expected to use and maintain special equipment that the average soldier wouldn't.



Guns are guns. Soldiers are soldiers. Look beyond the "special" hype; if these guns are so good, why does the average infantryman not rate one? He's not "special" enough? He doesn't rate the best tools to survive? He isn't worthy enough? He should maybe die because the "special" guys only are allowed to have the best equipment?

There isn't a soldier in Iraq that doesn't have a weapon that he can fight with. Some guns are different from others. Some will get the job done where others won't. Some require care and maintenance that the average soldier can't or won't privide.

All soldiers are NOT the same. One can hardly argue that there is much similarity between an 18 year old kid that graduated from Ft. Benning last week and a Special Forces soldier with years of training and experience under his belt. Pvt Joe doesn't need a SOPMOD M-4 to get his job done. He can usually fight his battles without 2 flashlights, a RAS, a PAQ-4, and an ACOG. He knows the very basics of warfighting, and isn't expected to do the same job.

Additionally, SOCOM is able to get things faster because, guess what, they are smaller and can purchase direct without as much difficulty. They can buy 2,000 rifles and have them out front faster than the big Army can figure out who is making rifles these days.

Regular soldiers are hardly under armed. They have accurate, reliable weapons, air and artillary support, and a supply system that gets them what is essential. They aren't out there with sticks and rocks. Unfortunatly, one of the facts of life is that if you are going to get killed with a rifle in your hands, it isn't going to matter what kind of rifle it is.

The short answer is, they are special and you are not. They are trained and expected to do things that you are not, and they get better gear faster because they need it faster. Yes, they are better than the rest of the military, and their equipment reflects this fact, as does their preformance. They carry the gear that is appropriate to what they do, just like everyone else in the military.
Link Posted: 3/11/2005 9:55:57 PM EDT
Can tell you right now...the Army isn't going to find anything better than the XM8. That thing is fuckin work of art!
Link Posted: 3/11/2005 10:23:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Rem700PSS:
Can tell you right now...the Army isn't going to find anything better than the XM8. That thing is fuckin work of art!




*groan*



10 pages... here it comes.



Link Posted: 3/11/2005 11:06:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Painter:
cut to the chase
watch the 100 rd dump
www.armedforcesjournal.com/blackwater/xm81.html

while you are at it, watch all this stuff again---the Todd Jarrett vids are kewl
www.armedforcesjournal.com/blackwater/videos.html

www.thesupplybunker.net/pictures/weapons/mk48_mod_0.jpg



Anyone else notice all the videos on that site are encoded at 223kbps?
Link Posted: 3/12/2005 6:08:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By StormSurge:

Originally Posted By joker581:
What does the S in SOCOM stand for?
There is your answer.

They do different work than the rest of the Army, and therefore use different tools. They are also better trained, and could therefore be reasonably expected to use and maintain special equipment that the average soldier wouldn't.



Guns are guns. Soldiers are soldiers. Look beyond the "special" hype; if these guns are so good, why does the average infantryman not rate one? He's not "special" enough? He doesn't rate the best tools to survive? He isn't worthy enough? He should maybe die because the "special" guys only are allowed to have the best equipment?



Actually, that is exactly the reason, but it isn't about being special, it's prioritizing.

Stuff costs money and you budget it to where you will get most use out of it.

SGatr15
Link Posted: 3/12/2005 6:23:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/12/2005 6:24:56 AM EDT by shockwave]
well, all I can say is that if I'm in any kind of "special" service in the military and I'm laying my ass out where people can shoot at it, the LAST thing I want is a "new" gun that has never been battle proven. They can give me one to train with and blast at the range, in the mud, and throw off a building, but I wouldn't use it in action until I KNEW that she was going to work properly.

EDITED TO SAY: I con't care how much it's been tested by somebody else.
Link Posted: 3/12/2005 6:31:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By rmstrjim:

Originally Posted By Painter:
cut to the chase
watch the 100 rd dump
www.armedforcesjournal.com/blackwater/xm81.html

while you are at it, watch all this stuff again---the Todd Jarrett vids are kewl
www.armedforcesjournal.com/blackwater/videos.html

www.thesupplybunker.net/pictures/weapons/mk48_mod_0.jpg



Anyone else notice all the videos on that site are encoded at 223kbps?



Every time I click on a video it says "rtsp is not a registered protocol." If anyone could help me out, I would greatly appreciate it. Thank you.

Respectfully,

Justin
Link Posted: 3/12/2005 6:41:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CitySlicker:
Every time I click on a video it says "rtsp is not a registered protocol." If anyone could help me out, I would greatly appreciate it.



Try downloading the Real One Player-other than that
forms.real.com/netzip/getrde601.html?h=207.188.7.150&f=windows/mrkt/R1P23D/RealOnePlayerV2GOLD.exe&p=RealOne%2BPlayer&oem=&tagtype=ie&type=
Link Posted: 3/12/2005 11:09:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Painter:

Originally Posted By CitySlicker:
Every time I click on a video it says "rtsp is not a registered protocol." If anyone could help me out, I would greatly appreciate it.



Try downloading the Real One Player-other than that
forms.real.com/netzip/getrde601.html?h=207.188.7.150&f=windows/mrkt/R1P23D/RealOnePlayerV2GOLD.exe&p=RealOne%2BPlayer&oem=&tagtype=ie&type=



Painter,

Thanks for the link, it worked great. Anyone know when Shootout at Blackwater 2005 will be?

-Justin
Link Posted: 3/12/2005 11:10:06 AM EDT
They have more money than God.
Link Posted: 3/12/2005 11:35:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dport:
They have more money than God.



Link Posted: 3/12/2005 11:54:05 AM EDT
Well when we were in Afghanistan Squad ldrs and Team leaders had ACOGS.

Everyone else had M68s(aimpoints) Hell even the Mess SGT scored a ACOG somehow.

I can only only speak for the 82nd (INF BDES) and we have damn fine equipment (compared to 3yrs ago).

Just about everyone has PAQ-4s/PEQ-2 and nods(PVS-7/14s) so other than getting the new DMRs and replacement of worn equipment we are doing fine.

Hell 2nd BDE(325 AIR) has EOtechs

FREE
Link Posted: 3/12/2005 1:25:35 PM EDT
Lots of snipers in need ... being attached to Headquarters Companies ... they get passed over in many (not all) cases.

Bought 800 bucks worth of 20 rd. mags today.

Support ... AmericanSnipers.org
Link Posted: 3/12/2005 6:29:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By joker581:

Originally Posted By StormSurge:

Originally Posted By joker581:
What does the S in SOCOM stand for?
There is your answer.

They do different work than the rest of the Army, and therefore use different tools. They are also better trained, and could therefore be reasonably expected to use and maintain special equipment that the average soldier wouldn't.



Guns are guns. Soldiers are soldiers. Look beyond the "special" hype; if these guns are so good, why does the average infantryman not rate one? He's not "special" enough? He doesn't rate the best tools to survive? He isn't worthy enough? He should maybe die because the "special" guys only are allowed to have the best equipment?

There isn't a soldier in Iraq that doesn't have a weapon that he can fight with. Some guns are different from others. Some will get the job done where others won't. Some require care and maintenance that the average soldier can't or won't privide.

All soldiers are NOT the same. One can hardly argue that there is much similarity between an 18 year old kid that graduated from Ft. Benning last week and a Special Forces soldier with years of training and experience under his belt. Pvt Joe doesn't need a SOPMOD M-4 to get his job done. He can usually fight his battles without 2 flashlights, a RAS, a PAQ-4, and an ACOG. He knows the very basics of warfighting, and isn't expected to do the same job.

Additionally, SOCOM is able to get things faster because, guess what, they are smaller and can purchase direct without as much difficulty. They can buy 2,000 rifles and have them out front faster than the big Army can figure out who is making rifles these days.

Regular soldiers are hardly under armed. They have accurate, reliable weapons, air and artillary support, and a supply system that gets them what is essential. They aren't out there with sticks and rocks. Unfortunatly, one of the facts of life is that if you are going to get killed with a rifle in your hands, it isn't going to matter what kind of rifle it is.

The short answer is, they are special and you are not. They are trained and expected to do things that you are not, and they get better gear faster because they need it faster. Yes, they are better than the rest of the military, and their equipment reflects this fact, as does their preformance. They carry the gear that is appropriate to what they do, just like everyone else in the military.



If Private Joe Schmo doesn't need the best weapon we have, why not issue him an M1903 Springfieild? OK that's too extreme. How about an old M-16A1? No, there is a better weapon available, the M-16A2. Or M-16A4. Or M-4. Where do you draw the line about how good a weapon he needs?

Think Private Joe Schmo doesn't need a flahlight to complete his mission? Why then is he buying one out of his own pocket? Maybe because he DOES need it.

Better than what? A tank? A jet fighter? A submarine? Gosh, I did not think those Special guys could do all that! They really are "better" than the rest of the military!

You will probably take this the wrong way, but you really need to broaden your mind. How much does a rifle cost? The entire Army could be re-equipped with the best rifle out there (SCAR or whatever wins the competition) for the cost of one F-22. Of course the F-22 is a strategic asset, but what about ten divisions?

What I'm saying is that the military wastes TOO MUCH DAMN MONEY on things other than equipping its individual soldiers. I'd like to see the "non-Special" guy finally get the respect he deserves. So sue me.
Link Posted: 3/12/2005 6:33:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/12/2005 6:34:07 PM EDT by fight4yourrights]
uh, they use them the most.


A former seal friend of mine describes the 250,000 rounds they'd burn in a day or so of training....


I talk to air force guys that use 20 rounds a year

Not sure on the army, but I know it's not much - they have to account for their brass. They would borrow from the seal guys, since they had a mountain of it.
Link Posted: 3/12/2005 6:35:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By StormSurge:


What I'm saying is that the military wastes TOO MUCH DAMN MONEY on things other than equipping its individual soldiers. I'd like to see the "non-Special" guy finally get the respect he deserves. So sue me.




Spoken like a "regular" soldier?
Link Posted: 3/12/2005 6:36:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Rem700PSS:
Can tell you right now...the Army isn't going to find anything better than the XM8. That thing is fuckin work of art!



hehehehe....

Welcome to this year...

http://ar15.com/forums/forum.html?b=2&f=171

Enjoy!
Link Posted: 3/12/2005 6:41:41 PM EDT
I've heard of Navy SPECWAR units shooting ammo straight off the truck.

Behind the crux of your question is a philosophy as old as ancient Greece. If you've ever read the Iliad you'll notice the Greeks laying siege to Troy would gather up the best arms and armor and give it to their best warriors. Why? Because the best warriors were more valuable. Same holds true today. As much as we try to avoid casualties for everyone, the truth is it takes alot of time and money to train elite warriors.

You want them to have the absolute best, so they can perform at their best and not be killed. Reliable weapons and effective ammunition is even more important to these guys because they operate in small elements. If a gun goes down in an infantry platoon there are 29 other guys there to cover your butt. If a gun goes down with a SEAL boat team then 1/8 of their firepower is gone.

Look at it this way, the Mk262Mod1 is probably the best 5.56 ammo out there, but it's not seeing widespread use. It's seeing use in elite units because that is where it makes sense given the cost/benefit ratio.

The good news is new weapons like this are often first deployed with elite units and then filtered down to the regular troops once they are proven. The aimpoint, flat top uppers are just a couple of examples.
Link Posted: 3/12/2005 6:43:32 PM EDT
That is part of the reason they attract the best.
Best equipment.
Keeping it special is what keeps people attracted to it.
Link Posted: 3/12/2005 6:43:34 PM EDT
MONEY

We've got a lot more $$$ invested in the training of a SOCOM warrior. Hence, spend more $$$ for his equipment.
Link Posted: 3/12/2005 6:43:46 PM EDT
Because the Army spends money on tanks, arty, IFV's, computers, MLRS, attack helicopters, etc. If you look at the $$$ per person there is a huge $$$ invested in each soldiers equipment. Also gear for 400,000 soldiers and 600,000 NG/AR troops has to be standardized so units can work together.

SOCOM has relatively few soldier, sailors, or airmen, and very little big $$$$$ equipment. They are also generally involved in high risk/high benefit missions where only a few soldiers/sailors/airmen will be involved. So it is critically improtant that each has the equipment that allows the mission the maximum chance of success.

In most armed conflicts, small are not the main weapons involved in deciding the conflict. The arty, IFV guns, tank guns, etc. are. In "special warfare" operations small arms are often the only weapons involved, so they had better be good.
Link Posted: 3/12/2005 6:44:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Rem700PSS:
Can tell you right now...the Army isn't going to find anything better than the XM8. That thing is fuckin work of art!



Yeah its cool looking but what does it really do different?
Link Posted: 3/12/2005 7:30:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By StormSurge:

Originally Posted By joker581:

Originally Posted By StormSurge:

Originally Posted By joker581:
What does the S in SOCOM stand for?
There is your answer.

They do different work than the rest of the Army, and therefore use different tools. They are also better trained, and could therefore be reasonably expected to use and maintain special equipment that the average soldier wouldn't.



Guns are guns. Soldiers are soldiers. Look beyond the "special" hype; if these guns are so good, why does the average infantryman not rate one? He's not "special" enough? He doesn't rate the best tools to survive? He isn't worthy enough? He should maybe die because the "special" guys only are allowed to have the best equipment?

There isn't a soldier in Iraq that doesn't have a weapon that he can fight with. Some guns are different from others. Some will get the job done where others won't. Some require care and maintenance that the average soldier can't or won't privide.

All soldiers are NOT the same. One can hardly argue that there is much similarity between an 18 year old kid that graduated from Ft. Benning last week and a Special Forces soldier with years of training and experience under his belt. Pvt Joe doesn't need a SOPMOD M-4 to get his job done. He can usually fight his battles without 2 flashlights, a RAS, a PAQ-4, and an ACOG. He knows the very basics of warfighting, and isn't expected to do the same job.

Additionally, SOCOM is able to get things faster because, guess what, they are smaller and can purchase direct without as much difficulty. They can buy 2,000 rifles and have them out front faster than the big Army can figure out who is making rifles these days.

Regular soldiers are hardly under armed. They have accurate, reliable weapons, air and artillary support, and a supply system that gets them what is essential. They aren't out there with sticks and rocks. Unfortunatly, one of the facts of life is that if you are going to get killed with a rifle in your hands, it isn't going to matter what kind of rifle it is.

The short answer is, they are special and you are not. They are trained and expected to do things that you are not, and they get better gear faster because they need it faster. Yes, they are better than the rest of the military, and their equipment reflects this fact, as does their preformance. They carry the gear that is appropriate to what they do, just like everyone else in the military.



If Private Joe Schmo doesn't need the best weapon we have, why not issue him an M1903 Springfieild? OK that's too extreme. How about an old M-16A1? No, there is a better weapon available, the M-16A2. Or M-16A4. Or M-4. Where do you draw the line about how good a weapon he needs?

Think Private Joe Schmo doesn't need a flahlight to complete his mission? Why then is he buying one out of his own pocket? Maybe because he DOES need it.

Better than what? A tank? A jet fighter? A submarine? Gosh, I did not think those Special guys could do all that! They really are "better" than the rest of the military!

You will probably take this the wrong way, but you really need to broaden your mind. How much does a rifle cost? The entire Army could be re-equipped with the best rifle out there (SCAR or whatever wins the competition) for the cost of one F-22. Of course the F-22 is a strategic asset, but what about ten divisions?

What I'm saying is that the military wastes TOO MUCH DAMN MONEY on things other than equipping its individual soldiers. I'd like to see the "non-Special" guy finally get the respect he deserves. So sue me.

The average soldiers and Marines that are over there have M-4s, M16A2s and M16A4s. They are the best weapons that we have which are suited for the job they do. The U.S. military has been looking for something better to arm them with, hence the OICW and XM-8 testing. Until a better alternative is found, they have a rifle that is more than capable of getting the job done.

I never said that troops don't need flashlights. My reference was to the back-up lights carried on the rifles of many Special Forces troops in Iraq and Afghanistan.

We aren't talking about tanks and jets here. Your post and my response were both about the differences in weapons carried by regular troops and those carried by SOCOM troops.

I am well aware of how many rifles can be bought for the price of a jet. As a Marine, I went to Iraq with serious gear issues(threadbare gear and an M-16A2 that had been with the Marine Corps since the 1st Gulf War). My unit crossed the border in soft skinned vehicles while the Marine Corps poured money into the VM-22 Osprey, a helicopter that has killed more Marines than the initial invasion of Iraq. However, the money spent on new jets, helicopters, and tanks would not go to the individual soldier anyway. The F-22s don't even belong to the Army, and the VM-22s are paid for out of the budget set aside for the Marine Corps Air Wing.

Your issue seems not to be with money being spent on other defesive and offensive assets, but with someone having something better than you. Again, the end is the same. SOCOM has different, better gear because they have a different mission, different budget, and different training.

If your issue is that regular troops need better gear, such as improved armor and other mission essential gear, I agree with you. However, the impression I got from your first post is that you have issues with SOCOM troops having newer, cooler gear than you. I feel that ALL of our troops should have the best gear that can be bought. However, I also realize that regardless of how many people feel the same, more money and better equipment will always be given to those who are more capable, better trained, and less expendable.
Link Posted: 3/12/2005 7:45:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/12/2005 7:47:30 PM EDT by StormSurge]

Your issue seems not to be with money being spent on other defesive and offensive assets, but with someone having something better than you.


Nope. This was meant to be a philosophical discussion. What I own or do not own has no bearing on the points I made.


However, the impression I got from your first post is that you have issues with SOCOM troops having newer, cooler gear than you.


No, what I was aying is that ALL US combat forces should have the best of what is available, from a Spec Ops guy in the mountains of Afghaniston to an Air Force MP walking a base perimeter.

Semper FI! I was USMC '83-'87. I'm not sure...does that make us Special also?
Link Posted: 3/12/2005 8:04:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By StormSurge:

Your issue seems not to be with money being spent on other defesive and offensive assets, but with someone having something better than you.


Nope. This was meant to be a philosophical discussion. What I own or do not own has no bearing on the points I made.


However, the impression I got from your first post is that you have issues with SOCOM troops having newer, cooler gear than you.


No, what I was aying is that ALL US combat forces should have the best of what is available, from a Spec Ops guy in the mountains of Afghaniston to an Air Force MP walking a base perimeter.

Semper FI! I was USMC '83-'87. I'm not sure...does that make us Special also?

Depends on what kind of special you are talking about.

I'm not sure if I'm tracking what you are saying on the first point. I was talking about the gear issued to the individual troops. I had the idea that you were an active duty soldier, hence the reference to you personally. If you are not, I apologize for the confusion as I certainly didn't mean for my post to be a personal attack.

I agree that the everyone out there should be ISSUED the best gear available. I had to take out a loan to buy gear before I deployed. My point however was that SOCOM has different needs due to different missions, and therefore the best weapon for them may not be the best for everyone.
Link Posted: 3/12/2005 8:06:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By joker581:

Originally Posted By StormSurge:

Your issue seems not to be with money being spent on other defesive and offensive assets, but with someone having something better than you.


Nope. This was meant to be a philosophical discussion. What I own or do not own has no bearing on the points I made.


However, the impression I got from your first post is that you have issues with SOCOM troops having newer, cooler gear than you.


No, what I was aying is that ALL US combat forces should have the best of what is available, from a Spec Ops guy in the mountains of Afghaniston to an Air Force MP walking a base perimeter.

Semper FI! I was USMC '83-'87. I'm not sure...does that make us Special also?

Depends on what kind of special you are talking about.

I'm not sure if I'm tracking what you are saying on the first point. I was talking about the gear issued to the individual troops. I had the idea that you were an active duty soldier, hence the reference to you personally. If you are not, I apologize for the confusion as I certainly didn't mean for my post to be a personal attack.

I agree that the everyone out there should be ISSUED the best gear available. I had to take out a loan to buy gear before I deployed. My point however was that SOCOM has different needs due to different missions, and therefore the best weapon for them may not be the best for everyone.



What? You're telling me a cook doesn't need a quick-change barrel to convert his rifle to 7.62 X 39mm ?
Link Posted: 3/12/2005 8:18:01 PM EDT
That's the way it works, the Snake Eaters get all the cool stuff first. The military evolves fast during warfare. Once the war is over, we will have another round of R&D to incorporate everything we learned this time around.
Link Posted: 3/12/2005 8:22:12 PM EDT
Or, it will be like after Vietnam, when funding was choked off for small arms research.
Link Posted: 3/12/2005 10:26:11 PM EDT
It is simple, the army has invested the most time, schools and other training on them. They are actually very expensive and time consuming to produce compared to some other units. And they can't just "buy more". So they give them what they need to get there missions accomplished.
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