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Posted: 2/24/2007 3:56:51 PM EST
Link Posted: 2/24/2007 4:22:32 PM EST
Little to do with the acceesories and more to do with the User.
All those problems could be countered with testing / proofing, proper procedures and training, training, training.
I shot IPSC for a couple seasons and the best lesson I ever learned was 'be accurate before you worry about being fast.' Expand that to testing and training with your gear repeatedly BEFORE shooting a match. I'd bet most of the folks plagued with failures failed to do that sufficiently.
Link Posted: 2/24/2007 4:25:25 PM EST
Most of those people probably just do not practice with their weapons. Then when they need them they fail.
Link Posted: 2/24/2007 4:27:32 PM EST
This is why I want to start playing. With my background and "service rifle" attitude, all it takes is hitting what I aim at. It seems like there are a few bullet proof mods you can make, but they are limited.

Link Posted: 2/24/2007 4:29:24 PM EST

After shooting in 3gun for several years I finally realized that the competition is really about who has the coolest gear
Link Posted: 2/24/2007 4:30:00 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/24/2007 4:32:27 PM EST by gaspain]
alot has to do with the fact that those comp shooters just through money at the gun thinking that more money = more accuracy. But dont actually understand how how the rifle systems work in concert.
Link Posted: 2/24/2007 4:35:09 PM EST
Link Posted: 2/24/2007 4:37:45 PM EST

Originally Posted By gaspain:
alot has to do with the fact that those comp shooters just through money at the gun thinking that more money = more accuracy. But dont actually understand how how the rifle systems work in concert.


I started three times trying to write exactly what you said. Good point.
Link Posted: 2/24/2007 4:39:15 PM EST
First off, I do not shoot in competition because I don't know of any locally, and couldn't afford it even if there were.

However, I've seen all these fancy guns in 3gun comp. on TV and such. It really makes me laugh to be honest. It is obvously a GAME, just like trap/skeet. Yes, they both improve your shooting skills, but like you mentioned, many of the guns are rediculous.

If I shot to compete, it would probably be iron sights only.
Link Posted: 2/24/2007 4:53:17 PM EST

Originally Posted By Aimless:

I suspect you are answering your own question, the guys you saw were running un proven parts in an attempt to gain an advantage. While you or I would not do that, I can understand someone else doing so with a playgun, particularly if they are mainly interested in winning games as an end result v. competing to hone skills that might be used in a real gunfight.


That's the rub. Sadly, every meaningful "combat-style" competition eventually degrades into a bunch of guys using unrealistically (read: stupidly) modified weapons in order to gain a time edge on the fellas who are there to hone their skills in a competitive environment.

Soon 3-gun will go the same route IPSC walked down over 20 years ago.
Link Posted: 2/24/2007 4:55:20 PM EST
Link Posted: 2/24/2007 4:56:19 PM EST
In all the Cowboy Action shoots I went to, the only rifles/carbines I ever saw fail were the Marlins, and conventional wisdom was that the Marlins were more reliable. Go figure.

Funniest was when the endcap of a tubular magazine came off and it and the spring went down range. Belonged to one of the guys who was a character. The spring ws easy to find, the end cap wasn't. Most of the guys I shot with were definitely in it for fun and not being the top of the list. Most were a little longer in the tooth than most modern gun 3 gun shooters so there wasn't the emphasis on speed where I shot. More on accuracy. Made it a lot of fun.

The other aspect was there was not a whole lot of tricking out you could do and still have a legal gun. That helped old down the throw money at it to go faster aspects.
Link Posted: 2/24/2007 4:56:34 PM EST

Originally Posted By Vibulenus:

All those problems could be countered with testing / proofing, proper procedures and training, training, training.


It is just a game, after all.
And most shooters use the game as a test and as training.

Relatively few people train to play games, they use games to train.
Link Posted: 2/24/2007 5:42:17 PM EST

Originally Posted By opti12206:
Most of those people probably just do not practice with their weapons. Then when they need them they fail.


Your kidding right? Many 3 gunners shoot more in a year than you've probably shot in your life.

I did 3 gun for about 5 years and never had an AR failure in MANY thousand rounds that wasn't mag related, and those were few and far between.

Most guys that have gun problems are the ones trying to get every advantage thru mods to the system. The basic "mil spec" type AR is by far the most reliable, IMHO.
Link Posted: 2/24/2007 5:45:25 PM EST
Not everyone can be a winner, this is not grade school soccer.
Link Posted: 2/24/2007 5:45:52 PM EST
Link Posted: 2/24/2007 5:47:22 PM EST

Originally Posted By ipschoser1:

Originally Posted By opti12206:
Most of those people probably just do not practice with their weapons. Then when they need them they fail.


Your kidding right? Many 3 gunners shoot more in a year than you've probably shot in your life.

I did 3 gun for about 5 years and never had an AR failure in MANY thousand rounds that wasn't mag related, and those were few and far between.

Most guys that have gun problems are the ones trying to get every advantage thru mods to the system. The basic "mil spec" type AR is by far the most reliable, IMHO.


For every squared away three gunner there are a half dozen idiots. Which is actually a tighter proportion than the proportionof squared away shooters (as a whole) to idiots with guns, by a huge margin.
Link Posted: 2/24/2007 5:57:12 PM EST
Just a guess: some shooters don't think of their rifles as COMBAT weapons therefore they don't treat them as such?
Link Posted: 2/24/2007 6:20:27 PM EST
The gun you use for a game is different than the gun you use for real.
This is why I am torn about getting into 3 gun/IDPA/IPSC.
I am not interested in gaming.
Link Posted: 2/24/2007 6:26:41 PM EST
It all seems too artificial to me.
Link Posted: 2/24/2007 6:35:07 PM EST

Originally Posted By FALARAK:

Originally Posted By ipschoser1:
I did 3 gun for about 5 years


So - did you see a lot of what I am talking about.... or was my experience unique?


At times I did. For the most part though, the stock guns ran fine. I've seen primer anvils tie up fire controls several times (reloads). Mag issues with 40 rounders (save the Sterling) are always a possibility. I do remember one stock Colt carbine that chronically short stroked... The owner finally gave up and got rid of it.

Contrary to popular arfcom fears, I never saw the set screws of a properly installed JP trigger fail, ever.

Link Posted: 2/24/2007 6:40:32 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/24/2007 6:41:18 PM EST by ZekeMenuar]
Most of the gun failures I witnessed in IPSC were due to faulty reloads or over-gunsmithed raceguns.

A lot of these guns are so tweaked out that anything out of the ordinary can cause a stoppage.

ZM
Link Posted: 2/24/2007 7:01:10 PM EST
I shot 1 3 gun match so I cant call my self an expert. But I shot it with my Bushmaster AR with a 20 inch barrel and Iron Sights, My Glock 22 With Ashley combat sights and my Stock Benellie Nova, My goal was to shoot quickly but hit every target, I beat out alot of guys on some stages with tweaked and modified race guns of all sorts gear becuase of failures.From a scope falling off to the rather large dude with the big plastic drum mag I saw in the Delta Force catalog trying to lay down and shoot from a small hole close to the ground. One thing I noticed that helped me out was being in good shape. I was surprised to see how slow some people were to get up move and get back down and have to repeat it again. Some of the guys were out of breath from a couple of the stages, it looked like they could bearly make another 30 seconds if they had to. sure it was hot that day but that was part of the game. I finished 7th out of 35 for my first time out and everybody shot in the same class.

Link Posted: 2/25/2007 2:19:16 AM EST
It's been said that to win at 3gun you must be accurate with your rifle, fast with your pistol and quick to reload your shotgun. I think that's true but having shot in a number of matches I have also noted:
1.) POA/POI- many 3gunners are not aware of the change in POI as the range increases and they cannot accurately hit small targets.
2.) Gear issues- From guns that malfunction, mag holders that don't hold and electronic sights that have died, many 3gunners are slowed or fail to complete the COF due to some sort of gear problem. Stock guns seem to do better than "race" guns regarding reliability but modified guns can be faster and more accurate. KISS does prove itself out over and over.
3.) Training- Being quick on target is important but doing everything quickly is what it takes to win. Changing mags, clearing malfunctions, loading shotguns, moving on the course while firing all are needed and all require training and practice.
4.) Physical conditioning- Being able to move around quickly while manipulating you firearm is a key factor in scoring well. If you have to run 20 yards, drop to your side and fire at small targets from under a barrier, it will affect your score if your heart is pounding so hard you can't keep the sights still or if it takes forever to get down and back up or if you lack enough limberness to contort into a good firing position.

As the OP has noted, 3gun tends to weed out unreliable equipment but it also showcases lots of other weaknesses in the abilities of shooters to rapidly and accurately complete a course of fire. It can be very humbling and although it is not combat or tactical training, it can show how glaringly deficient we sometimes are in our abilities to be hardcore shooters.
Link Posted: 2/25/2007 3:24:29 AM EST

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:
The gun you use for a game is different than the gun you use for real.
This is why I am torn about getting into 3 gun/IDPA/IPSC.
I am not interested in gaming.


This isn't true unless you want it to be. There are many divisions to shoot in ranging from bone stock weapons to the race guns. choose the one you want and shoot the stages how you want. When I went to shoots, no one cared how you shot the stages so long as you were safe.
Link Posted: 2/25/2007 3:34:11 AM EST

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:
The gun you use for a game is different than the gun you use for real.
This is why I am torn about getting into 3 gun/IDPA/IPSC.
I am not interested in gaming.


LOL!!.. reminds me of when I was a kid.. I would get so mad at my little friends because they wouldn't play serious....
Link Posted: 2/25/2007 3:39:22 AM EST

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:
The gun you use for a game is different than the gun you use for real.
This is why I am torn about getting into 3 gun/IDPA/IPSC.
I am not interested in gaming.


I was under the impression that IDPA was 'stock' stuff, and it was IPSC that had the 'race guns'?
Link Posted: 2/25/2007 3:40:21 AM EST
You answered your own question; guys doing modifications that make the weapon more prone to failure. Some people just cant leave well enough alone and be conservative in their modifications.
Link Posted: 2/25/2007 6:35:34 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/25/2007 10:46:40 AM EST by thelastgunslinger]
I am not a 3gunner, but I can guess.

I would bet that most of the rilfes that fail are not factory built.

Link Posted: 2/25/2007 8:18:38 AM EST
I love the entertainment provided by the falure of the high speed low drag gear some weekend commando's run....

The best was when I was at a 3-gun match where a guy on my squad made it very clear to EVERYONE how great his AR was.. It had this and that done to it... This and that part replaced with pricey high end after-market parts.stuff was polished,tuned etc.. Trigger done by some far away trigger job guru

'Comes his turn... he steps up "shooer ready?" ..."Standby".... "Beep"
he racks the charging handle... takes aim.. and..

"BBBBRRRAT"... click.
The gun goes full auto for five or six rounds then stops dead.... siezed solid.
After the RO orders the gun off the range he finds that in addition to the full auto problem his bolt/bolt carrier is cracked....

So much for your "tuned" rifle...

Conversley.. teh guys who show up with worn/blemished/ banged up rifles never seem to suffer any major stoppages.
Link Posted: 2/25/2007 8:39:57 AM EST

Originally Posted By Tomislav:

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:
The gun you use for a game is different than the gun you use for real.
This is why I am torn about getting into 3 gun/IDPA/IPSC.
I am not interested in gaming.


I was under the impression that IDPA was 'stock' stuff, and it was IPSC that had the 'race guns'?



IDPA was meant to be more "realistic" than IPSC, but in reality it's just another game with different rules.

A lot of the rules in IDPA are just nonsensical or stupid.
Link Posted: 2/25/2007 8:52:19 AM EST
Link Posted: 2/25/2007 9:04:30 AM EST

Originally Posted By Sixgun357:
I shot 1 3 gun match so I cant call my self an expert. But I shot it with my Bushmaster AR with a 20 inch barrel and Iron Sights, My Glock 22 With Ashley combat sights and my Stock Benellie Nova, My goal was to shoot quickly but hit every target, I beat out alot of guys on some stages with tweaked and modified race guns of all sorts gear becuase of failures.From a scope falling off to the rather large dude with the big plastic drum mag I saw in the Delta Force catalog trying to lay down and shoot from a small hole close to the ground. One thing I noticed that helped me out was being in good shape. I was surprised to see how slow some people were to get up move and get back down and have to repeat it again. Some of the guys were out of breath from a couple of the stages, it looked like they could bearly make another 30 seconds if they had to. sure it was hot that day but that was part of the game. I finished 7th out of 35 for my first time out and everybody shot in the same class.



Now you went and done it!
Link Posted: 2/25/2007 9:39:10 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/25/2007 9:44:29 AM EST by huck]
I am an active 3 gun competitor. You will notice that the top shooters have something in common, guns that run. Most failures are from overtweaked guns. There are lots of parts and mods that make the gun run smoother and flatter, but these come at a cost, reliability.
People get hung up on the mods that they think give them an edge. The best edge is to take all of the money that would be used to pimp a gun and buy practice ammo. This has the added benefit of showing you the weak points in your wepons reliability so that they can be corrected.

ETA: I have never felt limited by my equipment, all very basic mods to make the guns competitive. Rifle, ACOG, Comp, Trigger job. Shotgun, Magazine extension tube. Pistol, Very conservative SV framed gun. It's the shooter not the gun, but nobody like to hear that.
Link Posted: 2/25/2007 9:46:07 AM EST
Light reloads, crappy "improvements" to the weapon.

Kharn
Link Posted: 2/25/2007 10:12:07 AM EST
I shot 3 gun from 1988 until a few years ago when 3 back surgeries limited me too much.

I shot pretty much stock rifles or carbines. I have a JP Trigger that ran for 6 or 7 years in two different rifles with never a problem. I had an Aimpoint scope and a muzzle brake that's about it. I did very very well.

Enter the Gear Queer and observe the malfunctions. A lot of the Home Built (I build them but some should NOT) rifles/carbines are there for entertainment only it seems, it really is funny to watch.

You don't need much in the line of add-ons to compete, most of what is required will come from in between the human ears, but then that is the problem.

It is a great sport if you want it to be, you can learn a lot about your abilities and the reliably of your rifle/carbine if you want to.

Good Luck
Bill
Link Posted: 2/25/2007 10:28:48 AM EST
I really wish there was some kind of "2 gun" thing going on out there.

I will not be running around with a additional long gun if SHTF.

Just some rules to make it more realistic:
-all ammo must be on your person for the whole day.
-dropped (abandoned) mags belong to the range, you can buy them back for 10 bucks each
-only use Mil approved accessories (possibly only NSN accessories, but some models of aimpoints/eotech/acog etc don't have NSN numbers)

Just a bit more realistic non-widget/gizzmo based game.
Link Posted: 2/25/2007 10:36:21 AM EST
Too much focus on accuracy and recoil reduction instead of reliability.

They want an Xring gun that recoils like a .22LR instead of a A-Zone gun that recoils like a .223. So they start screwing with spring rates, gas systems, triggers, ammo...
Link Posted: 2/25/2007 10:55:11 AM EST
If you want a realistic match, take a M4A1 and throw a Short Dot on it, and have everyone run the same gun and M855.
Link Posted: 2/25/2007 11:00:36 AM EST
the failures I've seen doing 3 gun are by those who've been tinkering with them.

I run pretty much stock on all my gear, haven't had a problem. (well I did have 1 problem.. I had loaded a 9mm mag by mistake for use in my .40 Berretta. (92F convert kit) Weapon failure drill saved me, swapped out the mag and kept on going.)
Link Posted: 2/25/2007 11:07:13 AM EST
people fuck with ar's way too much, they run really good stock but people do all sorts of stupid stuff.
Link Posted: 2/25/2007 11:08:45 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/25/2007 11:10:33 AM EST by Derek45]


I was under the impression that IDPA was 'stock' stuff, and it was IPSC that had the 'race guns'?



Nope.

USPSA / IPSC several divisions.

(See Production division, it's mostly stock 9mm's.)


UPSPS / IPSC VIDEO LINK
Link Posted: 2/25/2007 11:09:28 AM EST
The last training session I went to, the number one pistol failure was 1911's
FTE, FTF, seemed like half of the guys using 1911's of various mfg's had problems.
Glad I took my Glock.
Link Posted: 2/25/2007 11:12:37 AM EST
Link Posted: 2/25/2007 11:19:32 AM EST

Originally Posted By FALARAK:
But at the 3gun comps.... there are issues abound.


Competition equipment by its very nature is designed to push the envelope.

My 1911s, for instance, have never gone full auto on me...but I have seen competition weapons do that.

Why? Because my 1911s never had sub-2 pound trigger pulls that are a regular feature of competition guns.



Several people didnt have any lube at all on their rifles. They didnt even clean them before starting the competition!


Well that isn't cutting edge competition equipment....that's just silly.



Several used 40 round mags to get that "edge" but then get mag related feed failures.


If the 40 round mag would eliminate the need for a reload, the risk might well be worth the reward. Competition thinking.



I saw a couple triggers break.... one went full auto, and one failed to reset.


More competition thinking.



But mostly - I see TONS of short stroking.... each round having to pull back on the charging handle to clear the weapon, and load a new round. It was sickening. A LOT of the time - these guns are running JP lightweight carriers, or other "non-standard" add-ons.


Again, competition thinking. I can't compete with someone like Todd Jarret...but maybe a 1/2 pound lighter trigger pull or a weapon that cycles just a bit faster will help me narrow the gap....




I saw a lot of people start a stage, then realize they forgot to turn their electronic optic on, or they had a variable optic dialed WAY up from a previous stage, and now they cant see shit when they need their weapon.


Everybody has brain farts on the range.

I have personally gone to shoot a speed drill in training with a weapon that didn't have a round chambered.



Why? It seems to me, the milliseconds you will shave with all the add-ons for quick follow-up shots, will be negated overall, by the failures you experience.


In some cases this is true.

...but if those extra doo-dads work, it can help you end up with a better score.



These experiences really make me appreciate a more "milspec" weapon, and iron sights, or my Acog..... where when you needs your weapon.... you just aim, and fire.


And that's why you don't see guys who depend on their weapons to stay alive use a lot of that competition stuff on their weapons. They usually won't sacrifice potential reliability for a bit more speed.



The one thing I did notice - is that a LOT of 3-gunnners use a 1911 variant made by STI.... and other than those uber-high cap mags that would fail from time to time - the pistols seemed very reliable.


They do seem to work pretty good....

The mags are always the weakest link in auto-pistols....and when you cram 25-30 rounds in a magazine you are creating a magazine that is VERY sensitive to problems.

Competition is all about trying to walk on that razor's edge...and competition guys routinely end up getting sliced up a treat by that razor.
Link Posted: 2/25/2007 11:21:24 AM EST

Originally Posted By Aimless:
I suspect you are answering your own question, the guys you saw were running un proven parts in an attempt to gain an advantage. While you or I would not do that, I can understand someone else doing so with a playgun, particularly if they are mainly interested in winning games as an end result v. competing to hone skills that might be used in a real gunfight.


I know a lot of guys who shoot 3 gun and competitions...but they have dedicated race guns to do that with.

They have other weapons for serious social purposes that don't have all that neat-o go-fast stuff involved.
Link Posted: 2/25/2007 11:22:20 AM EST

Originally Posted By Redmanfms:
That's the rub. Sadly, every meaningful "combat-style" competition eventually degrades into a bunch of guys using unrealistically (read: stupidly) modified weapons in order to gain a time edge on the fellas who are there to hone their skills in a competitive environment.

Soon 3-gun will go the same route IPSC walked down over 20 years ago.


FWIW they have a limited and tactical division that limits the whiz-bang gear and accessories that you can use on your weapons.
Link Posted: 2/25/2007 11:26:01 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/25/2007 11:40:54 AM EST by John_Wayne777]

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:
The gun you use for a game is different than the gun you use for real.
This is why I am torn about getting into 3 gun/IDPA/IPSC.
I am not interested in gaming.


3gun/IPSC/IDPA teaches some useful skills....namely shooting accurately at high speeds and under the stress of a course designed to foul you up.

That is useful.

Some gaming regs are not, like the IDPA's rule about every reload being a "tactical" reload, etc.

Personally I don't compete but it is not because I am afraid my ninja skills will be damaged by a "game". I just don't have decent clubs near enough to me to compete in.

...although some fellows from NOVA that I met at Blackwater have been doing their absolute best to tempt me to start shooting competition with them.

The shooting "games" are useful, in my opinion. 95% of shooters have no concept of what their actual skill level is. I am aware of my skill level because of the regular high-level training I participate in. Other shooters may not have this luxury and competition can help them identify what level they are at and what they need to work on. Pushing to be better at the competitions builds basic sight-alignment-trigger-squeeze skills that can help them in a real life shootout. If they get serious about competing it will push them to practice...which in and of itself is a GOOD thing.

It is not a replacement for good solid tactical training, but it isn't like competition turns people into airsofters.

All of the orgs have divisions for stock equipment so you don't need the go-fast stuff to compete. You may not be a threat to someone like Rob Leatham, but then again few people really are, and that has nothing to do with equipment.
Link Posted: 2/25/2007 11:31:12 AM EST

Originally Posted By Sixgun357:
Some of the guys were out of breath from a couple of the stages, it looked like they could bearly make another 30 seconds if they had to.


Basic athleticism's importance cannot be overestimated. Guns and gear are great...but they can't make up for someone who is just in no kind of shape.

I am hardly the most fit guy in the world, but I DO make sure I am in the gym at least three times a week trying to build my strength and stamina.
Link Posted: 2/25/2007 11:33:15 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/25/2007 11:36:21 AM EST by John_Wayne777]

Originally Posted By Kharn:
Light reloads,


Another source of competition woe....

Lots of competition guys hand load, and hand loaded ammo is more prone to failures than factory loaded ammo.

Another factor that has yet to be mentioned is Mr. Murphy...

Your weapon is usually going to poop the bed at the time it pisses you off most. That's life.
Link Posted: 2/25/2007 11:34:12 AM EST
The only problem I had out of 300= rounds was one round of ammo setback into the case and log jammed the mag and bolt. I switched to pistol. Three gun.... transition on the fly.
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