My latest blog entry from today started out as a reply to a thread in the team forum I made earlier. I took that reply, added a few things and subtracted a few things and came up with this. It's my entire feelings about the war in Iraq and war in general, put into words. I thought I'd share it with you folks here today. Feel free to use it or any part of it for any purpose you may wish.

vikingfour.blogspot.com/2005/08/why-we-cant-just-pull-out-of-iraq-it.html

It seems that as time goes by, more and more people are calling for the US to withdraw troops from Iraq. Because we haven't yet been able to stop the insurgency and terrorism there, many say we should just throw in the towel. And many keep citing casualty figures, as if to suggest there's a certain numerical value they can put their finger on that should signal when it's time to call it all off.

So to those of you that think we should just give up, what do you suggest we do? Just walk away and allow the terrorists to claim victory and take over the country?

I've got news for you, that's the worst thing we could possibly consider doing. I can't even give such a thought any consideration. Everyone can think what they wish about the circumstances that led to the war. You may or may not agree with the reasons forwhy we went to war there.

But now that we are there, we should all be in agreement on one thing.....WINNING! It doesn't make one bit of difference whether you or I think we should be there. We are there. That's the reality we face. There's only two options for getting out:

A. Winning
B. Quitting (losing)

Which of those do you want to do?

Folks, what I am about to say is not necessarily directed at anyone in particular. But it is directed toward people in general who feel we need to just give up and leave Iraq. People, grow a spine! I know this is America, where everyone these days expects everything to be quick, easy and painless...like instant coffee. But that's just not how things work in the real world. Since Vietnam, many among us have had this loser mentality attitude. And unless it's contained, this "I give up" loser attitude is going to destroy us. We struggled in Vietnam, not because the VC and NVA were that good, but because we were restrained by politicians to the point we couldn't take care of business. By the time we figured that out and actually tried to win it (invasion of Cambodia and Laos and the bombing of Hanoi and Haiphong), it was too late to win. The public support had been lost. It is for that reason that we just abandoned Vietnam. That in turn started a trend. In Beirut, we lost a lot of good Marines in that truck bombing. What do we do? We pull out! We get involved in Somali and bloodied in an urban fight, losing 18 guys in one operation that went wrong. What do we do? We pull out!

Since Vietnam, any conflict we've had in which things aren't just rosy has resulted in us packing up and walking away like a bunch of cowards and a bunch of losers! I for one do not want to see that happen again. If it does, we might as well just disband the military and spend all that extra money leftover from national defense on something else. What possible good is a military if we as a nation no longer have the guts to fight? And that's just where we are. Before the war started, something like 80+% of the American people approved of it. After we had taken the country and major combat had ended, the support was just as high. Then as the insurgency/terrorism started and we started taking more casualties than had been expected, that's when everyone starting the "we should pull out" stuff. The majority of modern day Americans are always supportive of anything, until the going gets tough. Then all too many of us change our tune.

People I have a newsflash for you. War is war. In war, people die. It hurts terribly to lose people, but in war, that's what happens. But because we are losing people doesn't mean we should just quit. Nobody ever said it was easy. Nobody ever said it was nice. But it is reality. If we as a nation no longer have the stomach to face these realities, then again, let's just disband the military and forget it. If we pull out of Iraq just because the going has gotten a little tough (after the other pullouts of the last 20-30 years), then nobody around the world will take us seriously anyway. We'll just be viewed as this big paper tiger with all sorts of fancy gear but no guts to use it in a tough fight. And really, that's what we will be. Do you want to be viewed that way? I sure don't.

Iraq is critical. The left argues it has nothing to do with the War On Terror and that Iraq is distracting from the War On Terror. But if you look at our enemy there, they seem pretty convinced it is important. In fact, the terrorists have made it the centerpiece battle against us. Al-Qaida is doing everything possible there to disrupt our efforts. They are doing all they can to ensure democracy doesn't take hold. The terrorists know the importance of Iraq. They don't want to see it become a free and successful nation that will be a model for the region, because that could cause a backlash that could undermine everything they stand for and believe in. The terrorists view Iraq as important part of the war on terror, so we better consider it important also.

The one thing I can say is that I'm glad this "loser" attitude we so much these days was not prevalent in previous wars. If it had been, we would have never been able to win a war. We lost 400,000 men in WWII. That's 400,000! We lost 37,000 in Korea. We lost over 58,000 in Vietnam. In comparison, some people are acting as if the 1800 killed in Iraq is a dramatic and unbearable number. But in comparison to past wars, it's really not. Yet, even with enormous casualties, our grandparents didn't give up and quit when the going got tough during WWII. They stayed the course and fought hard. They sacrificed. Not just the soldiers, but everyone. Supplies were short because all the goods were going overseas to help the war effort. So even civilians contributed. It was a total team effort. I look back on that period and feel so proud of how tough, determined and united we were as a nation. Those people were special.

Just to illustrate my point about how we are different today, during the D-Day invasion on June 6, 1944, the US military lost 2,200 men on Omaha Beach alone. That's right and I will repeat again, we lost 2,200 men on one day, taking one beach. That's 400 more than we have lost in the entire Iraq War in more than 2 years. Again, this puts things into perspective. Yet did this massive loss of life motivate the American people to protest? Did it break their will to win? Of course not. They pressed on like the tough people they were and accomplished the mission. But today, if we lose 1800 men in battle, many cite that as sufficient reason to just give up, to quit.

The American people could have just as easily protested the war in Europe as some protest or disapprove of the war in Iraq today. Afterall, it wasn't Hitler who attacked us, but rather the Japanese. Why on earth should we have gone to war in Europe against Hitler, who was no threat to us? Why should we have tied up so many troops in Europe when the real enemy and threat was in the Pacific? Sound familiar? That's the same argument the left is using today in hopes it will turn more people against the war so they can accomplish their agenda.

Now I look at so much of this country with a feeling of sickness at how "soft" many have become. We are no longer tough like the Greatest Generation was. We are no longer united. We have simply become a nation of "gimme right now with no cost or work or blood involved or else well quit"! Many of the people in this nation don't even deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence with the Greatest Generation. Unlike people today, those people understood that achieving victory and accomplishing tasks only came as a result of sacrifice. They knew that victory would not be handed to them without great cost. Yet this didn't deter them from doing what had to be done.

So if you really think we should leave Iraq, then please, by all means continue feeling that way. But you can bet my attitude is still the same as it was in March 2003. My support was there then and it's still there now. I don't think we should leave, not until our mission is accomplished and the Iraqis are strong enough to hold without our support. To do anything less is to ensure we lose, that we look like cowards in the eyes of the world, that we prove Osama's theory that we are soft is true....and it will mean all the 1800 lives lost so far is all for NOTHING. I'm not about to do that, no sir. We need to finish this now so that 5 or 10 years down the road we don't have to go back there again. And if we allow Iraq to become another terrorist haven, that's what will happen. To be brutally honest, we are there now only because we failed to finish the job there in 1991. It was fear of casualties and a drawn out fight that kept Bush Sr. from going all the way to Baghdad. But guess what, when you don't finish things, someday, someone else has to go back and clean up the mess. This is our time to make sure than this mess known as Iraq gets cleaned up once and for all. We have an obligation here. Let's hold strong and see it through.

So again, I say this: Grow a spine! Suck it up. Grieve for our lost soldiers, Marines and airmen. Pray for those who are there. Pray for the families who have lost loved ones. Pray that the war ends soon. But don't suggest that if we lose 1800 or 2000 troops that we should pull out. Let us not make the mistake of placing a numerical value on how much we are willing to give. Losing one person is too many. I feel a deep sadness with every report of a US soldier being killed. It hurts more than any words can describe. But I realize I must be strong. I'm sure the friends and families of troops killed in WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam and all wars felt just as much sadness, grief and loss as we feel today. But by gosh, they didn't use it as an excuse to just give up, roll over and die! We must continue on with the same spirit. To give up and give in to the terrorists now would be an utter disaster for us and the free world. And it would disgrace the efforts of all the brave and patriotic Americans who fought and died in this war and all of our previous wars. Let us not allow that to happen.

What you said.

Quoted: My latest blog entry from today started out as a reply to a thread in the team forum I made earlier. I took that reply, added a few things and subtracted a few things and came up with this. It's my entire feelings about the war in Iraq and war in general, put into words. I thought I'd share it with you folks here today. Feel free to use it or any part of it for any purpose you may wish. vikingfour.blogspot.com/2005/08/why-we-cant-just-pull-out-of-iraq-it.html It seems that as time goes by, more and more people are calling for the US to withdraw troops from Iraq. Because we haven't yet been able to stop the insurgency and terrorism there, many say we should just throw in the towel. And many keep citing casualty figures, as if to suggest there's a certain numerical value they can put their finger on that should signal when it's time to call it all off. So to those of you that think we should just give up, what do you suggest we do? Just walk away and allow the terrorists to claim victory and take over the country? I've got news for you, that's the worst thing we could possibly consider doing. I can't even give such a thought any consideration. Everyone can think what they wish about the circumstances that led to the war. You may or may not agree with the reasons forwhy we went to war there. But now that we are there, we should all be in agreement on one thing.....WINNING! It doesn't make one bit of difference whether you or I think we should be there. We are there. That's the reality we face. There's only two options for getting out: A. Winning B. Quitting (losing) Which of those do you want to do? Folks, what I am about to say is not necessarily directed at anyone in particular. But it is directed toward people in general who feel we need to just give up and leave Iraq. People, grow a spine! I know this is America, where everyone these days expects everything to be quick, easy and painless...like instant coffee. But that's just not how things work in the real world. Since Vietnam, many among us have had this loser mentality attitude. And unless it's contained, this "I give up" loser attitude is going to destroy us. We struggled in Vietnam, not because the VC and NVA were that good, but because we were restrained by politicians to the point we couldn't take care of business. By the time we figured that out and actually tried to win it (invasion of Cambodia and Laos and the bombing of Hanoi and Haiphong), it was too late to win. The public support had been lost. It is for that reason that we just abandoned Vietnam. That in turn started a trend. In Beirut, we lost a lot of good Marines in that truck bombing. What do we do? We pull out! We get involved in Somali and bloodied in an urban fight, losing 18 guys in one operation that went wrong. What do we do? We pull out! Since Vietnam, any conflict we've had in which things aren't just rosy has resulted in us packing up and walking away like a bunch of cowards and a bunch of losers! I for one do not want to see that happen again. If it does, we might as well just disband the military and spend all that extra money leftover from national defense on something else. What possible good is a military if we as a nation no longer have the guts to fight? And that's just where we are. Before the war started, something like 80+% of the American people approved of it. After we had taken the country and major combat had ended, the support was just as high. Then as the insurgency/terrorism started and we started taking more casualties than had been expected, that's when everyone starting the "we should pull out" stuff. The majority of modern day Americans are always supportive of anything, until the going gets tough. Then all too many of us change our tune. People I have a newsflash for you. War is war. In war, people die. It hurts terribly to lose people, but in war, that's what happens. But because we are losing people doesn't mean we should just quit. Nobody ever said it was easy. Nobody ever said it was nice. But it is reality. If we as a nation no longer have the stomach to face these realities, then again, let's just disband the military and forget it. If we pull out of Iraq just because the going has gotten a little tough (after the other pullouts of the last 20-30 years), then nobody around the world will take us seriously anyway. We'll just be viewed as this big paper tiger with all sorts of fancy gear but no guts to use it in a tough fight. And really, that's what we will be. Do you want to be viewed that way? I sure don't. Iraq is critical. The left argues it has nothing to do with the War On Terror and that Iraq is distracting from the War On Terror. But if you look at our enemy there, they seem pretty convinced it is important. In fact, the terrorists have made it the centerpiece battle against us. Al-Qaida is doing everything possible there to disrupt our efforts. They are doing all they can to ensure democracy doesn't take hold. The terrorists know the importance of Iraq. They don't want to see it become a free and successful nation that will be a model for the region, because that could cause a backlash that could undermine everything they stand for and believe in. The terrorists view Iraq as important part of the war on terror, so we better consider it important also. The one thing I can say is that I'm glad this "loser" attitude we so much these days was not prevalent in previous wars. If it had been, we would have never been able to win a war. We lost 400,000 men in WWII. That's 400,000! We lost 37,000 in Korea. We lost over 58,000 in Vietnam. In comparison, some people are acting as if the 1800 killed in Iraq is a dramatic and unbearable number. But in comparison to past wars, it's really not. Yet, even with enormous casualties, our grandparents didn't give up and quit when the going got tough during WWII. They stayed the course and fought hard. They sacrificed. Not just the soldiers, but everyone. Supplies were short because all the goods were going overseas to help the war effort. So even civilians contributed. It was a total team effort. I look back on that period and feel so proud of how tough, determined and united we were as a nation. Those people were special. Just to illustrate my point about how we are different today, during the D-Day invasion on June 6, 1944, the US military lost 2,200 men on Omaha Beach alone. That's right and I will repeat again, we lost 2,200 men on one day, taking one beach. That's 400 more than we have lost in the entire Iraq War in more than 2 years. Again, this puts things into perspective. Yet did this massive loss of life motivate the American people to protest? Did it break their will to win? Of course not. They pressed on like the tough people they were and accomplished the mission. But today, if we lose 1800 men in battle, many cite that as sufficient reason to just give up, to quit. The American people could have just as easily protested the war in Europe as some protest or disapprove of the war in Iraq today. Afterall, it wasn't Hitler who attacked us, but rather the Japanese. Why on earth should we have gone to war in Europe against Hitler, who was no threat to us? Why should we have tied up so many troops in Europe when the real enemy and threat was in the Pacific? Sound familiar? That's the same argument the left is using today in hopes it will turn more people against the war so they can accomplish their agenda. Now I look at so much of this country with a feeling of sickness at how "soft" many have become. We are no longer tough like the Greatest Generation was. We are no longer united. We have simply become a nation of "gimme right now with no cost or work or blood involved or else well quit"! Many of the people in this nation don't even deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence with the Greatest Generation. Unlike people today, those people understood that achieving victory and accomplishing tasks only came as a result of sacrifice. They knew that victory would not be handed to them without great cost. Yet this didn't deter them from doing what had to be done. So if you really think we should leave Iraq, then please, by all means continue feeling that way. But you can bet my attitude is still the same as it was in March 2003. My support was there then and it's still there now. I don't think we should leave, not until our mission is accomplished and the Iraqis are strong enough to hold without our support. To do anything less is to ensure we lose, that we look like cowards in the eyes of the world, that we prove Osama's theory that we are soft is true....and it will mean all the 1800 lives lost so far is all for NOTHING. I'm not about to do that, no sir. We need to finish this now so that 5 or 10 years down the road we don't have to go back there again. And if we allow Iraq to become another terrorist haven, that's what will happen. To be brutally honest, we are there now only because we failed to finish the job there in 1991. It was fear of casualties and a drawn out fight that kept Bush Sr. from going all the way to Baghdad. But guess what, when you don't finish things, someday, someone else has to go back and clean up the mess. This is our time to make sure than this mess known as Iraq gets cleaned up once and for all. We have an obligation here. Let's hold strong and see it through. So again, I say this: Grow a spine! Suck it up. Grieve for our lost soldiers, Marines and airmen. Pray for those who are there. Pray for the families who have lost loved ones. Pray that the war ends soon. But don't suggest that if we lose 1800 or 2000 troops that we should pull out. Let us not make the mistake of placing a numerical value on how much we are willing to give. Losing one person is too many. I feel a deep sadness with every report of a US soldier being killed. It hurts more than any words can describe. But I realize I must be strong. I'm sure the friends and families of troops killed in WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam and all wars felt just as much sadness, grief and loss as we feel today. But by gosh, they didn't use it as an excuse to just give up, roll over and die! We must continue on with the same spirit. To give up and give in to the terrorists now would be an utter disaster for us and the free world. And it would disgrace the efforts of all the brave and patriotic Americans who fought and died in this war and all of our previous wars. Let us not allow that to happen.

we are going to lose because we dont have the stomach as a nation to do what is necessary as a nation to win a war of this nature. we are losing because we have become a nation of pansies.  Every time a shitbird terrorist killes someones son or daughter a new antiwar activist is born as a nation we cannot stomach casualties.  Every time our boys get killed we lose a supporter of strong national security. Every time one of our heroes kills a terrorist three pop up in his place.  The most commited will always win.  The only tried and true tactic that wins a war of this nature is concentration camps.  It has been used successfully in many insurgentcies if you take away a fighters supplies and safe havens they die as a threat. The only way to stop them is to kill there freedom. Of course this opens up a new can of worms when the whole world is against you.
Mark my words if we leave Iraq early we will end up fighting this war again with a new Iraqi Osama
and every third world fighter will know that America is weak and can be defeated if they kill a few of us.  The Somalia fiasco gave Osama a reasonto believe we were weak.  Osama is doing exactly what the Chechens did he withdrew and is biding his time.  

Why not pull out?  Because, when you are ass fucking a really brutal chick, the ONLY time you pull out is if you intend to cum in her hair and then wipe your dick off on her pillow.  In other words, if we aren't going to stay until the job is done, we should just blow the place up.

If we pulled out of Iraq today, it would be open season on the west.

If the USA cut and ran in the face of ROP terror, the world has no chance to defend itself from the Islamists. Period.

We are at war for our very survival people.  Why the Liberal/Democrats/Socialists don't understand this is beyond me.

This war rivals WW2 in importance. If we fail.....the world goes dark.

Still we know how the story ends...

"Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us." Golda Meir (Although she was talking about the Israelies, it's true of us too.)

i sorta hate to comment on this. but here it goes..

the only way to defeat/control these people is to basically kill them all. or do what the british did to deal with the boars in south africa in the late 1800's. Put all civilians in camps, quarter the countryside into sections and kill or capture every person outside of the camps.. which made the brits very unpopular world wide and took around 250,000 soldiers for that relatively small popluation of biilgerents.

no matter what anyone says or does the us public does not have the stomach for something like this regardless of whatever else the world would think or do.

no one, the greeks, romans, mongols, turks, russians, brits and us has ever been able to do much about the people in this part of the world.. whether it was total brutality like mongols or more benign like the brits  or someting in-between like perhaps the romans..

so what can you do? hammer the crap out of a country where a terrorist group originates or finds shelter (afghanistan) and be super tough at the border and super vigilant everwhere else.

bush was naive to think that iraqi arabs would take to western style democracy like ducks to water.. and the iraqis are the most secularized arabs in the whole region.

we will leave. bush wont do a vietnam and hang around forever. and the area i predict will become a factionized feud zone like lebanon.

that's what iraq is.. its our lebanon..

in the end you must kill the idea.. the wahabi/takfir/taliban/shia-martyr movement at the source to kill the movement.. fighting these guys once their minds are set is just stupid. hit em at the source, make the countries that harbour the madrasas/imams/training camps feel the pain.. do it hard enough and it will stop.. this i predict will happen.. but very slowly.. with lots of painful lessons learned on all sides while we creep towards something safer.

Quoted: the only way to defeat/control these people is to basically kill them all. or do what the british did to deal with the boars in south africa in the late 1800's. Put all civilians in camps, quarter the countryside into sections and kill or capture every person outside of the camps..

Is that practical?  Maybe it is:

Charging Handle...

I usually agree with a lot of what you post here....and this is no exception.
Well stated and thanks for sharing.

Quoted: Quoted: in the end you must kill the idea.. the wahabi/takfir/taliban/shia-martyr movement at the source to kill the movement.. fighting these guys once their minds are set is just stupid. hit em at the source, make the countries that harbour the madrasas/imams/training camps feel the pain.. do it hard enough and it will stop.. this i predict will happen.. but very slowly.. with lots of painful lessons learned on all sides while we creep towards something safer. Sooner or later the West will have to confront the source of the poison… Wahabbism… the State Religion of Saudi Arabia. All terrorist roads lead back to Mecca… and until the wellhead of Apocalytic Jihaddism is capped the war will go on without end. ANdy

we will never have the guts to do that because it would mean war against all muslims
we would have to kill all of them including ones closer to home because once you invade the holy land it will become a holy war for all muslims.  We  are not the America of the 40s we are a dying nation of anti violence anti "bad feelings" ignorant pansies.

how will we get them pregnant if we pull out now?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Sooner or later the West will have to confront the source of the poison… Wahabbism… the State Religion of Saudi Arabia. All terrorist roads lead back to Mecca… and until the wellhead of Apocalytic Jihaddism is capped the war will go on without end. ANdy we will never have the guts to do that because it would mean war against all muslims we would have to kill all of them including ones closer to home because once you invade the holy land it will become a holy war for all muslims.  We  are not the America of the 40s we are a dying nation of anti violence anti "bad feelings" ignorant pansies. If this is true, then our Children, and our Childrens Children, will be fighting this war… ANdy

you are wrong my friend every year we lose this war a little at a time. As our people shun America pride, embrace anti aggression and pro european ideas. We die a little at a time the stone that America once was is cracking and eroading. No our children won't be fighting this war we will  be defeated long before they will be able to mount a defense.

Quoted: how will we get them pregnant if we pull out now?

Holy shit.  I just balled my eyes out

First off, I agree with everything ChargingHandle said.

Now for some thoughts:

1) We need more people over there. To lock down a country of that size (and that is what needs to be done) requires FAR more than 138,000 troops. Where do we get them from? See that 19 year old punk with the crack of his ass showing and living at mummy's house? Well, you get the picture....."Stand on the yellow line boy, shut your mouth and dress right dress".

2) We need to forget PC (in ALL aspects of our lives) and do what is necessary to W-I-N!!! Syria is starting to remind me of Laos and Cambodia---the terrorists can come across as they please, but we can't. BULLSHIT! If sanctuaries need taken out, then by damned TAKE THEM OUT! If Syria has a problem, then suggestion #1 gives us the resources to deal with them also.

3) Fuck this shit about "asking" for Iraqi permission to take down a target. WE are the reason they are in power now. They shouldn't be allowed to forget that.  

4) I have a problem with the "liberation" mentality that dictates once the shooting is over these ragheads suddenly become our friends. Again, BULLSHIT! We should deal with Iraq (and any future countries we take on) as an enemy to be conquered and defeated, and the population treated as hostile until they prove otherwise. We didn't "liberate" Japan or Germany in WWII. We kicked their asses and looked upon the people with suspicion until WE felt assured it was okay to take the boot off of their necks. It may be a little late for this in Iraq, but we need to keep it in mind for the future. Conquering/defeating and treating the civilians as potentially hostile makes military ops a little less difficult (more cut and dry Rules of Engagement, for instance). Taking fire from a building? Assault it with boots and lose a few guys so we don't hurt anyone? Nope---JDAM. BOOM. Problem over.

5) Perhaps it's time to set up a "Phoenix" type of program in Iraq. Do a little reading on the Malaysian counterinsurgecy ops as well as our own Philippine Insurrection (which, BTW, was partly fought against MUSLIM FANATICS). Brutal, ugly, and nasty. But effective. Both were successful. And fuck all those who would whine about "the horror, the horror". Reference the shedding of the PC yoke mentioned above. It's war, and it's about WINNING.


 

This is not a question of "back-bone." Nor is it a question of courage or military prowess. This war is a matter of will, pure and simple.

The enemy will sacrifice a hundred, no, a thousand of their children if by doing so would result in the death of even one American.

We stuck our hands in a Tar Baby, and getting unstuck will be no easy task. Muslim fighters from a dozen countries continue to infiltrate Iraq and imbed themselves within the Iraqi army or police, waiting for the chance to strike.

I hate to say it, but I believe we would have stood a better chance of putting this thing to bed had we went all the way to Baghdad in 1991.

For what it's worth, I support Bush and his decision to invade Iraq. The question is, what do we have to do to finally declare victory in Iraq?

We can't pull out now.  We need to use Iraq as a staging area for future military operations in order to maintain the free flow of oil at market prices.  As oil supplies dwindle, SOMEONE will have to have a military force in the area to help stabilize the chaos that is sure to come, and it might as well be US, not them (whoever that may be).

Oil IS that important.  Don't kid yourselves.

Quoted: So to those of you that think we should just give up, what do you suggest we do? Just walk away and allow the terrorists to claim victory and take over the country?

Nope, kill everyone and take the oil.

There's only two options for getting out: A. Winning B. Quitting (losing)

C. Staying there 60 years or more (losing)
D. Killing everyone and taking the oil (winning)

The one thing I can say is that I'm glad this "loser" attitude we so much these days was not prevalent in previous wars. If it had been, we would have never been able to win a war. We lost 400,000 men in WWII. That's 400,000!

They were fighting for the freedom of the entire world.  Our nation had been attacked by a foriegn military.  Would you sacrafice 400,000 for democracy in Iraq? A democracy that will never take anyway becuase its agaisnt their very nature.

I don't think we should leave, not until our mission is accomplished and the Iraqis are strong enough to hold without our support.

They your great grandchildren will be going there when they jointhe military.  Becuase we still have troops in Germany and Korea, and there is no way we will ever be able to pull out of Iraq and expect Iraq to remain democratic.

Invading Iraq, imprisoning their leader, then converting them to our democratic way has about the same chance of sucess as invading the USA, imprisoning the President and converting us all into radical Muslims.  It is impossible.

+1 with IMHO.


As I see it..... as long as there are insurgents willing to go to Iraq to die for Allah, they won't be comming here to die for Allah.  

Quoted: +1 with IMHO. As I see it..... as long as there are insurgents willing to go to Iraq to die for Allah, they won't be comming here to die for Allah.

+100000

I just can't picture the Kurds, Shiite and Sunni all living together peacefully.

We are already seeing the beginnings of a sectarian civil war. And contrary to popular belief, foreign jihadist only account for a small percentage of the fighters in Iraq.

AR15Fan, the way I see it, we are fighting for the freedom of the world now. The Islamofascists are no different than Hitler. Both share/d the desire for world domination. We are going to have to face these people somewhere, so why not Iraq?

Quoted: And contrary to popular belief, foreign jihadist only account for a small percentage of the fighters in Iraq.

But they account for the majority of the suicide bombers and IED's that are killing our guys.

You see what happens when it's just the locals we clash with. Look at that cleric dude and his militia. We wasted that guy's whole army with very few losses of our own.

It's the foreign terrorists who have the knowledge and sophistication that are doing most of these bombings.

Quoted: AR15Fan, the way I see it, we are fighting for the freedom of the world now. The Islamofascists are no different than Hitler.

Hitler sucessfully invaded entire nations.  He was on his way toward conquering all of Europe.

Quoted: Quoted: AR15Fan, the way I see it, we are fighting for the freedom of the world now. The Islamofascists are no different than Hitler. Hitler sucessfully invaded entire nations.  He was on his way toward conquering all of Europe.

And the STATED goal of the Islamofascists is...........?

I seem to recall Saddam invading a little nation called Kuwait once upon a time. Of course we were there to stop him from invading Saudi Arabia. Then we kicked his ass outta Kuwait.

I also recall a group known as the Taliban basically invading and conquering a place called Afghanistan. That's right, most of them were not born in Afghanistan, but kind of found their way there and took the place over after the Soviets left, until of course we came in, kicked their ass and ran them away.

If you give these Islamofascists the opportunity, you can bet they won't hesitate to do what Hitler attempted. Look at how they view Israel. They've tried numerous times to invade and conquer that land. Fortunately, they failed.

Quoted: Quoted: And contrary to popular belief, foreign jihadist only account for a small percentage of the fighters in Iraq.

But they account for the majority of the suicide bombers and IED's that are killing our guys.
Majority of suicide bombings, yes.

You see what happens when it's just the locals we clash with. Look at that cleric dude and his militia. We wasted that guy's whole army with very few losses of our own.

Sadr and his Mahdi (sp) Army are Shiite, and yes, quite inept. For some stupid reason, they decided to stand toe to toe with us. The bulk of the resistance are Sunni, and quite clever and adaptable. Many of these fighters once served in Saddam's intelligence service, which means they are capable at infiltrating many targets of opportunity.

Then you have the relatively small, yet utterly brutal Kurdish group, Ansar al-Islam . These guys carry out a lot of the kidnappings, and were responsible (according to them) the ambush of the Marine sniper team the other day.

Just trying to illustrate the complexity of the dangers over there.

Mach1,

If you could remove (kill) or drastically reduce the number of suicide-bent foreign fighters, the picture in Iraq isn't quite as bleak, is it? If it was just down to IED's and gunbattles things wouldn't be as unhealthy (unhealthy being a relative term mind you).

Shutting down the border and thereby controlling the influx of the foreign pieces of shit would solve a good portion of the problem. Perhaps more of an iron fist, if we have the will, would go a long way towards solving the rest.