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Posted: 11/27/2001 5:39:51 PM EDT
The debate seems to pop up every other day on GlockTalk. Do all Glock owners have to justify their devotion to Glock by bashing Sig. They must come to grips with the fact that as good as Glock is, it still takes a backseat to Sig. [i]Fan is derived from Fanatic.[/i] Here is one of the latest threads, although not as anti-Sig as previous threads. [url]www.//glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=d432e2042aa606a4aeef919cf7ccee27&threadid=48090[/url]
Link Posted: 11/27/2001 5:42:38 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/27/2001 5:44:30 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/27/2001 5:45:35 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/27/2001 6:14:22 PM EDT
They should just admit that H&K's are much better pistolas and everything would be just fine.
Link Posted: 11/27/2001 6:18:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/27/2001 6:14:46 PM EDT by Dolomite]
[size=5]SIG[/size=5]: Although above average pistols, they have a really high bore axis and an extra long double-action trigger pull on the first shot. All this at an insane price. Some people personally find that the SIG ergonomics suit them better than anything else out there, and that's fine, but the average user could take home 3 Ruger KP95DC pistols for what you'll blow on a SIG and be served just as well. [size=5]Glock[/size=5]: In the 1920's there was a German school of art (architecture mostly) known as "Bauhaus". Before the Nazi's shut them down, they proffered the idea that raw, brute technology could be synthesized into a functional beauty. And for some reason the Third Reich felt threatened by that. This is what the Glock series of pistols represents to me - if I were to cup my hands out in front of me together, in the form of an aggressive isosceles triangle, and a manna of black polymer were to fall out of the sky to fill my hand, you would end up with the frame of a Glock pistol. ([i]That's how good it fits.[/i]) If you top it off with an ugly, ULTRA-functional slide - you end up with the pinnacle of man-made personal weaponry. An [i]homage[/i] to the philosophy of function through form. Pretty darn close to perfection if you ask me... So why are these dudes dissin' Glocks? Do they want to be on the same side as the Nazi's? Hmmm?[-!-!-]
Link Posted: 11/27/2001 6:21:51 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/27/2001 6:30:53 PM EDT
Glock has nothing on Sig and Sig has nothing on H&K. The only choice I face everyday is PPK or USP. USP wins most of the time.
Link Posted: 11/27/2001 6:33:11 PM EDT
When you kiddies want to kick off the training wheels and take the next step......... [img]www.ar15.com/members/albums/SPECTRE%2Fhklogo%2Egif[/img]
Link Posted: 11/27/2001 6:36:49 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/27/2001 7:29:25 PM EDT
Gock owner and Sig type are two different breeds. One knows they got the most gun for the money and bet thier butts on it's reliability. One knows they spent the most money for thier gun and could never admit in a public forum that all the extra money they spent on the host gun that if they had spent it on practice ammo the overall gun owner/gun would be a better self defense package. The above also applies to Steyr Aug and HK rifle owners.
Link Posted: 11/27/2001 7:33:18 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/27/2001 7:35:49 PM EDT
I can't imagine why they would have this affliction, must be becasue they don't have 1911s.
Link Posted: 11/27/2001 7:55:09 PM EDT
There are five main reasons why I have a 9mm Sig 226 and not a 9mm Glock 17. One: Full size Glocks do not fit my hand. In fact, they feel like crap in my hand. Two: I dont trust plastic. No amount of what anyone says can change my view of plastic vs. steel/alloy. Three: As stated previously by Mr. raf; Have you ever heard of a Sig KB or any machanical problems regarding a Sig pistol? I havent. Four: I have two close friends that own Glocks, one friend has the 17, the other friend has the 19. Both have erratic accuracy and stovepipe repeatedly with numerous kinds of ammo. I dont trust their reliability much more than a S&W or a Ruger. Five: The bangwagon effect is killing me. I am so sick of people jumping on the bandwagon and simply exlaiming that Glocks are "the best", when in fact they cant vouch for anything due to their lack of any experience (never fired a Glock, Sig, Beretta, HK, etc). "Glocks; because they're cool". Its kind of like the old 1911 .45 ACP bandwagon. But back then, it was because it really was the only auto everybody could relate to. My 9mm 226 Sig has YET to stovepipe with any brand of ammo and accuracy is on par with my Browning Hi-power (damned fine). But in the end it is all about personal preference. One more thing: HK actually makes a viable pistol? Didnt they used to make a "squeezer geezer" or something like that? Let me think...mmmmm, nope sorry, nothing comes to mind when I think of HK and pistols. I might be able to think of a rifle or two.... but not pistols. JRB L1A1
Link Posted: 11/27/2001 8:01:31 PM EDT
I have a Sig 229 and several Glocks. I'm sorry but you can't say one is better than the other. It's personal preference. They are both great firearms.
Link Posted: 11/27/2001 8:21:03 PM EDT
BigZ, Yes there are some rabid Glockers there, but I think they are non discrimnatory they seem to give equal time to bashing other fine pistols such as 1911s, Beretta, H+K, Walthers and many others in addition to the very fine Sig. I must admit that I have experienced the level of reliability claimed by these Glockers, as I have a G-19 with thousands and thousands and thousands(quit keeping track years ago)of rounds through it. It is failure free to this day. I must also admit that I don't remember ever hitting anything with it. All jokeing aside it is a good pistol no more no less. Hope you enjoy your Sig as much as I enjoy my 1911. Have a nice evening, Rabon...
Link Posted: 11/27/2001 8:27:19 PM EDT
Originally Posted By raf: I've yet to see a report of a SIG KB.
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me neither, but i have heard of an AR-15 KB. this is usually due to hot loaded ammo. i want an example of a Glock KB using factory ammo.
Link Posted: 11/27/2001 8:28:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/27/2001 8:21:21 PM EDT by ORIGINAL-Waterdog]
YUp, there sure are a lot of Glock owners, but, most aint shooters. A lot of those people at that OTHER forum, are newbies who have just acquired a glock and a CCW in the same week. A very dangerous combination to the peripheral, IMO. People who are of this status, don't rate an opinion on the viability of any pistol. I presently carry a G17, but, have also carried a M10 Smith. It's not the gun, as much is it is the person wielding it. Waterdog
Link Posted: 11/27/2001 8:35:48 PM EDT
This is sort of a Ford vs. Chevy type of thing. i have owned 1911's, Glock, CZ-75, HI-Powers, PPK, Berreta, and a couple others. i have never had anything against the Sig except its ergonimics and control placement. i fully recognize it as a quality firearm. i have owned two Glock's (26 and 31) and have never experienced a problem with either. the G31 shoots about a 4" group at 25 yards. a Sig may shoot better, but i have not owned one yet due to the above. The HK USP is also a fine handgun. the only reason i have never been interested in one is because of its bulk that does not fit my hand well. The Walther p99 is probably going to be my next pistol to try out. i have'nt decided on what caliber yet, but this pistol sits very comfortable in my hand. The "Best" pistol is the one you are comfortable with. i miss my PPK lib
Link Posted: 11/27/2001 11:20:21 PM EDT
Had a Glock 17 which instantly got sold after discovering the Sig P226. Heck, I'd take the el cheapo HS 2000 over the Glock anyday--Much better weapon, IMO, and more realistically priced.
Link Posted: 11/27/2001 11:25:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/28/2001 2:55:44 PM EDT by Aviator]
[img]http://www.hsarms.com/images/anim.gif[/img] [b]HS-2000[/b] Rules! Aviator [img]www.milpubs.com/aviator.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 11/27/2001 11:53:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Aviator: [b]HS-2000[/b] Rules! Aviator [img]www.milpubs.com/aviator.gif[/img]
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Very much agreed, Aviator. But how do you think the Glock fans will take it?
Link Posted: 11/28/2001 1:01:29 AM EDT
Once you get a H&K USP .45, you won't even bother with these petty arguments anymore. Really, who cares which piece of junk comes in second, third or forth? [:D]
Link Posted: 11/28/2001 4:11:50 AM EDT
This little debate has also gone to the corporate level. If you look at the Glocks chambered for the 357Sig round, the slide is stamped 357Auto.
Link Posted: 11/28/2001 5:02:33 AM EDT
Hineline - much as I love my AR15, I Guar-on-tee my 91 will still be firing reliably and accurately long after your AR, FN or what-have-you rifle has choked on carbon...not to mention factory 91 steel mags are tough enough to drive nails with. I don't think having a stone reliable, tougher than an AK, damn near bolt-gun accurate .308 auto rifle is a waste of money. As for handguns, Glocks and SIGs are fine weapons. I carry HK. Not because I'm blindly brand-loyal, but because I've owned probably ten Glocks and three SIGs, and I shoot the USP series more accurately than I do either Glock or SIG. I've shot my USP Tactical at B27 targets at a no-shit 200 yards and connected six out of ten. My daily carry is a USP 45 compact, which I chose because I don't like the odd-feeling two finger grip of the G30. I shot the SIG 245 next to my Compact, and the USP whipped its ass for accuracy and controllability. JMHO, YMMV. QS
Link Posted: 11/28/2001 5:20:30 AM EDT
Originally Posted By raf: Possibly because both groups have a deep underlying inferiority complex born of not being 1911 shooters.
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I might have to agree... hehehe... I love the STEEL in my hand when I'm shooting my 1911. BUT, to each his own. The only Glock I've ever shot was a 23, in .40, and when it didn't jam, I hated the kick. Almost all of the weight of the gun is in the slide, so it flips like a bitch. That kinda turned me off to plastic guns. Not that they're all bad, I just don't like 'em. I've never handled a Sig, so I can't comment on them.
Link Posted: 11/28/2001 5:31:53 AM EDT
Owned a HK, switched to glock for one reason. HK's cannot handle dry fire without risking a broken firing pin. Between me and a buddy we broke 4 firing pins dry firing. We both switched to Glock and dry fire the same amount with no damage. I like HK toughness but that is a serious design flaw. The consistent trigger pull is a plus on the glocks. Glock magazines cost half as much. And the glock is infinitely more user friendly to self service and repair. Now make an HK that can take dry firing and can be completely stripped with a ball point pen as your only tool and I'm there. David
Originally Posted By SPECTRE: When you kiddies want to kick off the training wheels and take the next step......... [img]www.ar15.com/members/albums/SPECTRE%2Fhklogo%2Egif[/img]
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Link Posted: 11/28/2001 5:54:33 AM EDT
Oh for shame. Once the gun owners begin to seperate, we will lose to the Sarah Brady's of the world. Unite my brothers and sisters and hold dear to your heart that all firearms are created equal when the bullet is heading your direction. Glocks are practical, long living, indestructible(almost) pistols. There are some out there that have shot 300,000+ rounds and are still going. Consistent trigger pull. Light on your hip for all day comfort. Sigs are a work of art. Smooth operating. Very fine function. I don't like double action. Never seen 300,000+ rounds ever out of one. Pulls pants down on the hip a little. Colt 1911A1 pistols are classic. JB designs are great functional firearms to say the least. Heavy as a dead hog on the hip. Beautiful and tuneable to perfection. More parts out there than you can shake a stick at. Thin in the hand and fit like a glove. Can be shot forever but expect to replace a lot of parts along the way. Don't forget the Hi-Power. Lovely pistols and so sweet in the hand. Good capacity, fine shooting and a wonderful feel on the hip. Another great JB design. My .0000000002 cents
Link Posted: 11/28/2001 7:30:18 AM EDT
SIG P210 HK P7 Any more questions?? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Seriously, I can accept the design quality and simplicity of the Glock. I have a G 20 and HAD a G 22 (sold it and got a stainless Italian Beretta 92). Unfortunately, I have never taken the time to get to know the Trigger pull on the Glock. I much prefer the pull on a Beretta 92, SIG 228/229, HK P7, HK USP, Kimber, etc. I can "point" shoot very well with the P7, slightly less well with the others, and the Glock is WAY off (the only ones worse are my Smith 10mm's). I think the quality of the Glock is more than acceptable. The fit and finish are not up to the SIG-Sauer standard, but are more than functional. I have seen shooters do incredibly well at GSSF matches with stock guns, but they are the kind of guys to practice constantly with their guns. AFARR
Link Posted: 11/28/2001 7:34:51 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ARChoo: They should just admit that H&K's are much better pistolas and everything would be just fine.
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Beat me to it
Link Posted: 11/28/2001 8:10:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/28/2001 10:09:58 AM EDT by Dolomite]
Sure, sure… SIGs are considered "pretty" by many, and as it has been stated before; this whole thing basically all comes down to personal preference. But, Truly there can be no greater testimony to the greatness of an object than to judge it by the degree to which it has inundated a particular culture. Unquestionably the Glock is more commonly referred to in Modern American Popular Music (spelled: R - A - P ). I.e. The song [u] Hand on the Glock[/u] off the 1999 CD release Black Sunday from the artists Cypress Hill [i]"Cuz I put away the shotgun, borrow me a Glock. Took a little trip to the funky weed spot. Tried to jack me, but homey got shot la-la-la-lalala-la! "[/i] Now, unfortunately, the American Congress for the Advancement of the White Race has called Rap music: "A direct assault on the fiber of goodness" and, "a form of noise pollution that must be ruthlessly irradicated, by any means necessary…" Harsh, scary words indeed - but what I don't understand is why would the "pretty" gun fans chose to be on the same side as the A.C.A.W.R.? Hmmm?[-!-!-] PS: Dear HK USP nut jobs, Where-oh-where do you think H&K stole the design engineering talent to make the USP from? (Hint: Think Austria) Also, ever try the LEM trigger mod for the USP? Who's trigger are they trying to duplicate with that?
Link Posted: 11/28/2001 9:49:14 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SPECTRE: When you kiddies want to kick off the training wheels and take the next step......... [img]www.ar15.com/members/albums/SPECTRE%2Fhklogo%2Egif[/img]
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should be pay more for the name H&K
Link Posted: 11/28/2001 10:12:23 AM EDT
I carry both, a Glock and a SIG. I shoot the Glock a litle better, the SIG has proven a little more reliable. Both are excellent, functional weapons, and I can't think of a sidearm I would rather carry. I shot a USP once. I hated it, but I am sure that it is the right pistol for some people. The bottom line is that just about any pistol from a major manufacturer in a combat caliber is will be adequate for the job.
Link Posted: 11/28/2001 10:35:41 AM EDT
1) Rap is an abomination...but what do you expect. Hate to say it, but one reason I don't miss my Glocks that much is that you usually don't see HKs dangling sideways from "gangstas" Newport-stained hands. 2) Also - hate to burst your bubble again, city boy...but HK made the first polymer handgun way back in the seventies, the VP70Z/M. QS
Link Posted: 11/28/2001 10:45:09 AM EDT
I shot a Glock and I hated it. The trigger, teh felt recoil, the pudgy grip - you name it, I hated it. I shot the Sig and I love it. And I'm fairly accurate with it. No further ananlysis is necessary as to how I spend my money. And if there are people out there who like KB (read as BOTH the toystore and as kaboom) tupperware, with a "got to be RETAUGHT how to shoot" trigger, and a grip ONLY Andre the Giant could love, far be it from me to put them down. [}:D]
Link Posted: 11/28/2001 11:19:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/28/2001 11:18:19 AM EDT by Dolomite]
Now please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the H undt K VP70 (the huge commercial success that it wasn't) was polymer [I] molded [/I] around a steel frame? I can't say for sure because I've never, ever seen one. Another thing I've never, ever seen is a Glock kaBoom - I've put probably 10,000 rounds of 9 and 45 through my models 34 and 21 over the last few years and not once did my handgun explode! I've been denied my status as a victim! Ever hear of anyone else failing to make his or her Glock blow up? And another thing, how can you people complain about the trigger??? Didn't you guys grow up with water pistols? Why there is NOTHING more [b]American[/b] than seeing a bunch of kids whiling away a hot summer day plugging away at each other with water pistols. [b]NOTHING[/b]. I used to get so excited when I was a kid that when it came time to refill the water pistol in the sink, half the time I'd rip off that stupid little plastic plug thingy and it would fall down the drain. Remember that? Now, if you didn't develop any muscle memory from the zillion reps of working that water pistol trigger, well… I don't know what to say (except maybe that I feel [I]embarrassed[/I] for you). [b]America[/b] -Love it or leave it Bud. [marines]
Link Posted: 11/28/2001 11:28:45 AM EDT
Nein. The VP70Z/M was polymer framed. You're thinking of the P9S. I'm not defending Glocks - though I think they're decent guns. As to the kB issue, USPs are rated for +P+ ammo in all calibers, the .45s are even factory approved for use with .45 Super. No factory load is going to kB a USP. The original USP was a .40, and they fired a round into a barrel with a bullet stuck in it...blew both bullets out, barely perceptible bulge, accuracy was unaffected. Try that with yer 1911, SIG or Glock. QS
Link Posted: 11/28/2001 12:01:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/28/2001 12:20:05 PM EDT by Dolomite]
I appreciate the correction. Though for the record I never did assert that the Glock was the first plastic framed pistol, only that H+K utilized former Glock staff to make the USP. Also, I was unaware that the .45 USP was OK for the use of .45 Super - that is impressive. However, 'Internet kaBoom!' legend has it that Gunwriter Frank James has documented a number of kB!s in HK USP .40 pistols (not that we trust gun writers now do we?). "Amerika, du hast es besser." -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, Wendts Musen-Almanach (1831)
Link Posted: 11/28/2001 12:15:21 PM EDT
It is absolutely Ford vs Chevy. Whatever floats your boat, I have and love both. However, Hineline, I also have an HK SR9T that will shoot 1/2" 100 yard groups that my FAL and AR will never be capable of no matter how much I practice. DO wannabes buy HK because they buy into the marketing mystique and "NAVY SEALS" stuff? Sure, but criticizing HK BECAUSE they are expensive sounds like sour grapes to me. Who says I don't have money left over to practice?
Link Posted: 11/28/2001 12:29:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: I shot a Glock and I hated it. The trigger, teh felt recoil, the pudgy grip - you name it, I hated it. I shot the Sig and I love it. And I'm fairly accurate with it. No further ananlysis is necessary as to how I spend my money.
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Ditto
Link Posted: 11/28/2001 12:34:42 PM EDT
I like both pistols (and the HK USP, and the Beretta, and the 1911 [:)]). Glock vs. SIG Sauer... IMO, the SIG (and Beretta 92 series) are the most reliable pistols to be had. [b]This is priority #1[/b]. The HK is getting there, but has not been around as long as the SIG & Beretta designs to have the same, proven track record. SIGs and (new) Berettas do not KB. New SIGs handle +P+ ammo much better than older SIGs, and their service life is longer as well. SIGs are MUCH more accurate than Glocks (not a big deal in CQB though). Glocks are much easier to maintain then the SIGs. If you are worried about service life, if you can "shoot out" a SIG, you have spent more than enough money on ammo to buy several SIGs AND Glocks. Just my .02 Tyler
Link Posted: 11/28/2001 12:46:40 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/28/2001 1:06:14 PM EDT
I have a member of each family. I only got a Sig because the company I work for doesn't allow Glocks. I shoot all 3 well enough to feel confident for a carry gun. My USP Tactical feels almost too big for my hand, but I use it for a winter gun (larger triger guard for gloves and pure intimidation factor in the higher risk season). The Sig is great for the other seasons. I was mad when the policy changed to allow semi-autos that I couldn't carry my Glock, but it would have made me just as mad to buy 10 rounders.
Link Posted: 11/28/2001 2:09:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: I shot a Glock and I hated it. The trigger, teh felt recoil, the pudgy grip - you name it, I hated it. I shot the Sig and I love it. And I'm fairly accurate with it. No further ananlysis is necessary as to how I spend my money. And if there are people out there who like KB (read as BOTH the toystore and as kaboom) tupperware, with a "got to be RETAUGHT how to shoot" trigger, and a grip ONLY Andre the Giant could love, far be it from me to put them down. [}:D]
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the trigger on a Glock is best used as a double action revolver. pull untill you feel tension, then pull all the way for a more accurate shot. it does not take long to get used to this. especially if you shoot double aciton revolvers. the Glock's double action pull is better than any double aciton pull on a revolver. the Glock 21 has a wide grip, but the .357 sig and .40 caliber pistols do not. a Beretta has a wider grip than most Glocks. i still want someone to give me an example of a Glock KB using factory loaded ammunition. nothing against sig lib
Link Posted: 11/28/2001 2:21:50 PM EDT
The Beretta is a reliable peice, but is nowhere near indestructible. i broke the "double-action" spring and the weapon could no longer fire in DA mode. is was then a single action [:)] accuracy on a Beretta M92f seems to be hit or miss. of course the one that i buy shoots south and wide. i have experience with two Beretta's and two Glocks. Glock wins on this. i await to try a Sig P220 and Walther P99
Link Posted: 11/28/2001 2:47:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/28/2001 2:39:20 PM EDT by trickshot]
Sigs expensive? I paid $350 for a used 226 and full-cap mags are comparatively cheaper than Glocks. I love it, it's the best handgun I own and after shooting my .45 a lot, I'm realizing that it's more accurate under stress conditions (that is, I get more solid hits on target with the Sig than with the .45). I still like 1911s, but don't like the locked and cocked carry style. I guess I just prefer a double action with no safety. I also like the way the Sig is always at "half cock" so the hammer is not resting on the firing pin (even with a firing pin block, it's cold comfort). But to each his own. Go check out the Build it Yourself forum--they're gearing up for 80% Sig 228 kits.
Link Posted: 11/28/2001 3:07:05 PM EDT
If I have to shoot someone on the street it will be done with a SIG P220. If I have to shoot someone in my own home it wil be done with either a SIG P226 OR a Glock 23, depending on whether I happen to be upstairs or downstairs. I trust both makes to go bang when I badly need them to. The SIG just points more naturally for me.
Link Posted: 11/28/2001 3:24:17 PM EDT
When I started shooting auto handguns when I was in 7th grade, I went to a range where they rented guns. You paid $5 to be able to fire any of the guns they had and switch guns at any time. I had learned to shoot revolvers years earlier and was a decent shot. I fired a sig 226, 228, glock 17,22,23,19, beretta 92fs, hk usp, a couple of 1911's and several s$w autos. I liked the slick action one the sig, but they were a little top heavy for 9mm's. The glocks were great as far as weight, but I just couldn't get over the trigger. The usp's were cool, but they just didn't fit me right. I liked the slim grip of the 4506 and its sights. The 1911's were very good, but I just didn't like the saftey in my way. I really liked the Beretta's feel and balence. Now, I own a 92fs and 4506. All the guns functioned, but I just liked some more than others. All personal opinion.
Link Posted: 11/28/2001 3:32:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/28/2001 3:37:03 PM EDT by PitViper]
One more thing: HK actually makes a viable pistol? Didnt they used to make a "squeezer geezer" or something like that? Let me think...mmmmm, nope sorry, nothing comes to mind when I think of HK and pistols. I might be able to think of a rifle or two.... but not pistols. JRB L1A1
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One acronym for ya: SOCOM People who know use H&K (and not in any little pissant caliber, either...)
Link Posted: 11/28/2001 3:45:32 PM EDT
Yes. I am so pissed that I now own six SIGS and two Glocks and not a single HK. Wonder why I keep torturing myself this way?
Link Posted: 11/28/2001 3:49:22 PM EDT
Originally Posted By B27: Yes. I am so pissed that I now own six SIGS and two Glocks and not a single HK. Wonder why I keep torturing myself this way?
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The first step is admitting you have a problem, so you're obviously on the road to recovery...[devil]
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