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Posted: 5/12/2004 8:07:14 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/12/2004 8:07:38 PM EST by sgtar15]
This man



brian.carnell.com/articles/2002/09/000011.html

By Brian Carnell

Tuesday, September 10, 2002

Jimmy Carter wrote an article bemoaning the current state of affairs for the Washington Post recently. Jim Roepcke posted a link to it on his site and I responded with some very unkind words about Carter which elicted some other responses.

Anyway, Daniel Pipes wrote a column last week which really captured my feelings about Carter -- namely that the current situation which Carter is so upset about is largely one of his own making. It was Carter, after all, who set the precedent of a completely weak and inadequate response to Islamic extremist actions against Americans.

Pipes writes,


In retrospect, the mistake began when Iranians assaulted the U.S. embassy in Tehran and met with no resistance.
Interestingly, a Marine sergeant present at the embassy that fateful day in November 1979 agrees with this assessment. As the militant Islamic mob invaded the embassy, Rodney V. Sickmann followed orders and protected neither himself nor the embassy. As a result, he was taken hostage and lived to tell the tale. (He now works for Anheuser-Busch.)

In retrospect, he believes that passivity was a mistake. The Marines should have done their assigned duty, even if it cost their lives. "Had we opened fire on them, maybe we would only have lasted an hour." But had they done that, they "could have changed history."

Standing their ground would have sent a powerful signal that the United States of America cannot be attacked with impunity. In contrast, the embassy's surrender sent the opposite signal - that it's open season on Americans. "If you look back, it started in 1979; it's just escalated," Sickmann correctly concludes.


And once the Iranians had the embassy, Carter waited for months before launching that ill-fated rescue mission. The embassy was seized on November 4, 1979, but the hostage rescue attempt was not launched until April 25, 1980.

And what did Carter have to offer the nation? Idiotic speeches about the "crisis of the American spirit" and lame nonsense that the nation just needed more "faith."

Of course what the United States really needed was a president whose main qualification was something other than the fact that he wasn't Gerald Ford.



Bastage!!!

For you youngings I'll give you 1 guess as too what party he belonged to.

Sgtar15
Link Posted: 5/12/2004 8:08:08 PM EST
lol

"JIMMY CARTER?!?!!? HE'S HISTORY'S GREATEST MONSTER!"
Link Posted: 5/12/2004 8:08:22 PM EST
Mohammed
Link Posted: 5/12/2004 8:09:48 PM EST
Link Posted: 5/12/2004 8:13:17 PM EST
Link Posted: 5/12/2004 8:18:42 PM EST

Originally Posted By jblachly:
Mohammed



ditto
Link Posted: 5/12/2004 8:20:01 PM EST
They are to blame. They have to take responsibility. I blame the Islamofascists for being Islamofascists! Nobody forced them to be murdering bastards.
Link Posted: 5/12/2004 8:20:33 PM EST
.
This is BS. Jimmy Carter was one of the best presidents in recent history, Ronald Regan was the other. Both are extremely intelligent. Geo. Bush (Jr or Sr) would'nt make a pimple on either of their asses.
.
.
Link Posted: 5/12/2004 8:26:06 PM EST

Originally Posted By Mr_Jimmy_Fly:
.
This is BS. Jimmy Carter was one of the best presidents in recent history, .





Sgtar15
Link Posted: 5/12/2004 8:27:48 PM EST
Link Posted: 5/12/2004 8:32:11 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/12/2004 8:48:32 PM EST by Va_Dinger]
Actually, any country that aided the Afghanistan Mujahideen also helped to fuel Islamic fundamentalists movement. Al-Qaeda originally started out by raising funds and recruiting/training volunteers for the war against the Russians. Something like 30,000 volunteers flowed through the training camps in Afghanistan and Pakistan. These camps also preached a very hard lined view of Islam. Al-Qaeda kept good records of who they trained and who donated money. Dam near every active Islamic terrorist group seems to have some connection to the Russian war in Afghanistan. When the Russians pulled out these volunteers returned to their home countries and boom we have a world wide Islamic terrorist network. Combat vetrans filled with years of hard lined Islamic preaching, and fresh from a victory over a superpower. This network setup to recruit, fund, and train volunteers for the Russian war is now causing the world so much grief. In America, I guess you would have to blame President Reagan and the CIA. We pumped Billions of dollars into aiding the mujahideen by funneling money and other support through Pakistans version of the CIA, called the ISI.
Link Posted: 5/12/2004 8:52:20 PM EST
Blame the parents.
Link Posted: 5/12/2004 9:01:37 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/12/2004 9:05:26 PM EST by Va_Dinger]

Originally Posted By swingset:
Blame the parents.



What?
Link Posted: 5/12/2004 9:08:58 PM EST
Radical Islamist fanatics?
Link Posted: 5/12/2004 9:24:33 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/12/2004 9:44:25 PM EST by Taxman]

Originally Posted By swingset:
Blame the parents.




Rap Music?


Remember that Dirty Kaffir rap awhile back. I ripped it to MP3 and put if on CD if I can just find where I put it.
Link Posted: 5/12/2004 9:30:41 PM EST

Originally Posted By Taxman:

Originally Posted By swingset:
Blame the parents.




Rap Music?




Link Posted: 5/12/2004 9:40:57 PM EST
Say what you will about the peanut farmer, but he got us out of the MAD doctrine and started us on the path to victory in the cold war. For that, I hold him in high esteem.

PD-59

CW

Link Posted: 5/12/2004 9:46:11 PM EST
It began with Carter, sure, but Reagan's handling of the Beirut bombing didn't do much for us either.

Oct. 23, 1983 is one of the few dates in my life where I remember exactly where I was and what I was doing when I heard the news.
Link Posted: 5/12/2004 10:10:38 PM EST
You can blame religious intolerance. We have been sowing the seeds since the first crusade.

Religion with no tolerance of other religions is what has started most of the major wars fought in the world in early times.

But I just started another one...

Link Posted: 5/12/2004 10:31:06 PM EST

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:
Actually, any country that aided the Afghanistan Mujahideen also helped to fuel Islamic fundamentalists movement. Al-Qaeda originally started out by raising funds and recruiting/training volunteers for the war against the Russians. Something like 30,000 volunteers flowed through the training camps in Afghanistan and Pakistan. These camps also preached a very hard lined view of Islam. Al-Qaeda kept good records of who they trained and who donated money. Dam near every active Islamic terrorist group seems to have some connection to the Russian war in Afghanistan. When the Russians pulled out these volunteers returned to their home countries and boom we have a world wide Islamic terrorist network. Combat vetrans filled with years of hard lined Islamic preaching, and fresh from a victory over a superpower. This network setup to recruit, fund, and train volunteers for the Russian war is now causing the world so much grief. In America, I guess you would have to blame President Reagan and the CIA. We pumped Billions of dollars into aiding the mujahideen by funneling money and other support through Pakistans version of the CIA, called the ISI.



Correct.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 2:17:35 AM EST

Originally Posted By Mr_Jimmy_Fly:
.
This is BS. Jimmy Carter was one of the best presidents in recent history



Link Posted: 5/13/2004 2:20:11 AM EST

Originally Posted By Imbroglio:

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:
Actually, any country that aided the Afghanistan Mujahideen also helped to fuel Islamic fundamentalists movement. Al-Qaeda originally started out by raising funds and recruiting/training volunteers for the war against the Russians. Something like 30,000 volunteers flowed through the training camps in Afghanistan and Pakistan. These camps also preached a very hard lined view of Islam. Al-Qaeda kept good records of who they trained and who donated money. Dam near every active Islamic terrorist group seems to have some connection to the Russian war in Afghanistan. When the Russians pulled out these volunteers returned to their home countries and boom we have a world wide Islamic terrorist network. Combat vetrans filled with years of hard lined Islamic preaching, and fresh from a victory over a superpower. This network setup to recruit, fund, and train volunteers for the Russian war is now causing the world so much grief. In America, I guess you would have to blame President Reagan and the CIA. We pumped Billions of dollars into aiding the mujahideen by funneling money and other support through Pakistans version of the CIA, called the ISI.



Correct.



Wrong. But then you always are.
The mujahadeen DID NOT "turn into" Al Quaeda or the Taliban. The Taliban was created by Pakistan. Al Quaeda was created by some veterans of the Afghan war, true, but they would have been fighting there with or without CIA help. Whether or not they kicked out the Soviets then, Russia would have withdrawn eventually because the cost-benefit ratio wasn't worth it.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 2:33:50 AM EST
Fundamentally Retarded Muslim Clerics and OBI wannabes with loads of cash.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 3:35:46 AM EST
I always figured it was MTV and Jerry Springer....

People in the middle east pick that shit up on satellite....I mean when I watch it I want to kills us, too.

Link Posted: 5/13/2004 3:48:18 AM EST

Originally Posted By RikWriter:

Originally Posted By Imbroglio:

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:
Actually, any country that aided the Afghanistan Mujahideen also helped to fuel Islamic fundamentalists movement. Al-Qaeda originally started out by raising funds and recruiting/training volunteers for the war against the Russians. Something like 30,000 volunteers flowed through the training camps in Afghanistan and Pakistan. These camps also preached a very hard lined view of Islam. Al-Qaeda kept good records of who they trained and who donated money. Dam near every active Islamic terrorist group seems to have some connection to the Russian war in Afghanistan. When the Russians pulled out these volunteers returned to their home countries and boom we have a world wide Islamic terrorist network. Combat vetrans filled with years of hard lined Islamic preaching, and fresh from a victory over a superpower. This network setup to recruit, fund, and train volunteers for the Russian war is now causing the world so much grief. In America, I guess you would have to blame President Reagan and the CIA. We pumped Billions of dollars into aiding the mujahideen by funneling money and other support through Pakistans version of the CIA, called the ISI.



Correct.



Wrong. But then you always are.
The mujahadeen DID NOT "turn into" Al Quaeda or the Taliban. The Taliban was created by Pakistan. Al Quaeda was created by some veterans of the Afghan war, true, but they would have been fighting there with or without CIA help. Whether or not they kicked out the Soviets then, Russia would have withdrawn eventually because the cost-benefit ratio wasn't worth it.



I think you need to go research the history of Al-Qaeda or modern Islamic terrorism for that matter. You seem to know nothing on the subject. This is not breaking news. Any book or article on the subject will point out the same facts I outlined. The Taliban was certianly not a player in the Russian war in Afghanistan. I also never stated that they were. They were not created till after the Russians pulled out and Afghanistan went into a cival war. The ISI created them originally to protect their Opium trade routes. They later helped push them to power to have a friendly nation on their border.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 3:49:09 AM EST
The Jews?
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 3:53:42 AM EST

Originally Posted By Aimless:
Blame fill in the blank arab country leader while you are at it. How many of these countries have no education system beyond these whacked out islamic religious schools where all they teach is their versionof the Koran and that americans are the devil, combine that with economies that only serve the elite, leaving little or no opportunity for the young hate filled men these places turn out and what do you think we'll be seeing for the next 20 years?



Scene from a madrassah (islamic religious school) :

"All, right children, let us do our mathematics, insha'allah. What do two plus two equal?"

"Two plus two equals...Death to America!"

Link Posted: 5/13/2004 4:00:10 AM EST

Originally Posted By Mr_Jimmy_Fly:
.
This is BS. Jimmy Carter was one of the best presidents in recent history, Ronald Regan was the other. Both are extremely intelligent. Geo. Bush (Jr or Sr) would'nt make a pimple on either of their asses.
.
.



Clearly a poor student of history...with limited knowledge of what defines a great president.

You are Sir, a silly
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 4:01:13 AM EST

Originally Posted By Cold_Warrior:
Say what you will about the peanut farmer, but he got us out of the MAD doctrine and started us on the path to victory in the cold war. For that, I hold him in high esteem.

PD-59

CW





Ya mean locked in the Rose Garden? Don't think so, he was out to destroy the military.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 4:32:20 AM EST
It's all Oprah's fault.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 4:33:23 AM EST

Originally Posted By gunman0:
It's all Oprah's fault.



I'll agree with that one!
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 4:37:08 AM EST
How about Abraham?
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 4:38:54 AM EST

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:
I think you need to go research the history of Al-Qaeda or modern Islamic terrorism for that matter. You seem to know nothing on the subject.



No, I think you need to research it again, this time from a source without an ideological bias, because your initial statement was incorrect.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 4:40:24 AM EST
I blame guns.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 4:41:16 AM EST
In my Past I was an up an coming memberof the Democrat organization. I long since walked away from them, whenI saw them becoming socalist. I meet Carter...my impressionthen andtoday...wimp, efeminate wimp, he was unimpressive in person, the curtain behind him and the podium were scaled down to make him look bigger....
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 4:53:33 AM EST

Originally Posted By RikWriter:

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:
I think you need to go research the history of Al-Qaeda or modern Islamic terrorism for that matter. You seem to know nothing on the subject.



No, I think you need to research it again, this time from a source without an ideological bias, because your initial statement was incorrect.



Thats funny . Why would I need to research agian? If you bothered to actually read anything on this subject you would quickly see the statement was totally correct. If you would like to prove me wrong, feel free.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 4:55:36 AM EST

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Originally Posted By RikWriter:

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:
I think you need to go research the history of Al-Qaeda or modern Islamic terrorism for that matter. You seem to know nothing on the subject.



No, I think you need to research it again, this time from a source without an ideological bias, because your initial statement was incorrect.



Thats funny . Why would I need to research agian? If you bothered to actually read anything on this subject you would quickly see the statement was totally correct. If you would like to prove me wrong, feel free.



I already did prove you wrong.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 5:00:35 AM EST

Originally Posted By RikWriter:

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Originally Posted By RikWriter:

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:
I think you need to go research the history of Al-Qaeda or modern Islamic terrorism for that matter. You seem to know nothing on the subject.



No, I think you need to research it again, this time from a source without an ideological bias, because your initial statement was incorrect.



Thats funny . Why would I need to research agian? If you bothered to actually read anything on this subject you would quickly see the statement was totally correct. If you would like to prove me wrong, feel free.



I already did prove you wrong.



By just stating you disagreed? Please feel free to back up your claim that modern terrorism does not have deep ties to the mujahideen movement of the Russian Afghan war.. I'd love to see your proof. Your statements so far have shown me nothing.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 5:14:55 AM EST
Jerry Springer and/or Mohammed…

Andy
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 5:20:59 AM EST
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 5:27:01 AM EST

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Originally Posted By RikWriter:

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Originally Posted By RikWriter:

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:
I think you need to go research the history of Al-Qaeda or modern Islamic terrorism for that matter. You seem to know nothing on the subject.



No, I think you need to research it again, this time from a source without an ideological bias, because your initial statement was incorrect.



Thats funny . Why would I need to research agian? If you bothered to actually read anything on this subject you would quickly see the statement was totally correct. If you would like to prove me wrong, feel free.



I already did prove you wrong.



By just stating you disagreed? Please feel free to back up your claim that modern terrorism does not have deep ties to the mujahideen movement of the Russian Afghan war.. I'd love to see your proof. Your statements so far have shown me nothing.



Let me take a whack at it.

First, lets get one glaring error out of the way. While the ISI may have had a hand in supporting the Taliban, it sure in hell wasn't to protect their opium trade. As a matter of fact, under Taliban rule opium production and distribution was punishable by death.

Okay, you seem to think that modern terrorism had 'deep ties' (which in itself is a subjective assesment) in the mujahideen. I disagree. Modern islamic terrorism started in 1964 with the founding of the PLO (more precisely in 1968 with its spinter group Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine). It is these people who were responsible for the Munich Olympic massacre in 1972. Members of this organization then formed the Abu Nedal Organization in 1974.

Lets not forget Hizbollah and its suicide attack on the American Barracks in Beruit in 1983. This was masterminded by Imad Mugniyah, the man instrumental in teaching terror to a young Osama bin Laden. In 1984 a Kuwaiti airliner was hijacked and diverted to Iran. The terrorists wanted the release of suspects held in the Beruit bombing. They executed 2 Americans. There was also a suicide car bombing of the US Embassy in Kuwait that year that killed 6.

And lets not forget the hijacking of TWA flight 847 in Rome 1985, where Robert Stethem, a US navy diver was executed and his body unceremoniously dumped on the tarmac.

I could continue, but I think you get the gist.


Your soft implication that the US is somehow abetted or is responsible for modern islamic terrorism by its material support to the mujahideen during the Russian / Afghan war is simply wrong.


*Sorry if I stole your dance Rik *
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 5:38:09 AM EST
My first real memory was the Olympics in Munich, i was 4, then there was all the hijackings, and Entebbe, achille Lauro, Marine Barracks just too many too list.

jimmy Carter was qualified to run Habitat for Humanity, not this country.

At least slick willy is smart enuff to say Bush did the right thing bla, bla, bla

Carter is still talking shit today
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 5:50:45 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/13/2004 5:52:19 AM EST by Va_Dinger]

Originally Posted By MIerinMD:

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Originally Posted By RikWriter:

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Originally Posted By RikWriter:

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:
I think you need to go research the history of Al-Qaeda or modern Islamic terrorism for that matter. You seem to know nothing on the subject.



No, I think you need to research it again, this time from a source without an ideological bias, because your initial statement was incorrect.



Thats funny . Why would I need to research agian? If you bothered to actually read anything on this subject you would quickly see the statement was totally correct. If you would like to prove me wrong, feel free.



I already did prove you wrong.



By just stating you disagreed? Please feel free to back up your claim that modern terrorism does not have deep ties to the mujahideen movement of the Russian Afghan war.. I'd love to see your proof. Your statements so far have shown me nothing.



Let me take a whack at it.

First, lets get one glaring error out of the way. While the ISI may have had a hand in supporting the Taliban, it sure in hell wasn't to protect their opium trade. As a matter of fact, under Taliban rule opium production and distribution was punishable by death.

Okay, you seem to think that modern terrorism had 'deep ties' (which in itself is a subjective assesment) in the mujahideen. I disagree. Modern islamic terrorism started in 1964 with the founding of the PLO (more precisely in 1968 with its spinter group Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine). It is these people who were responsible for the Munich Olympic massacre in 1972. Members of this organization then formed the Abu Nedal Organization in 1974.

Lets not forget Hizbollah and its suicide attack on the American Barracks in Beruit in 1983. This was masterminded by Imad Mugniyah, the man instrumental in teaching terror to a young Osama bin Laden. In 1984 a Kuwaiti airliner was hijacked and diverted to Iran. The terrorists wanted the release of suspects held in the Beruit bombing. They executed 2 Americans. There was also a suicide car bombing of the US Embassy in Kuwait that year that killed 6.

And lets not forget the hijacking of TWA flight 847 in Rome 1985, where Robert Stethem, a US navy diver was executed and his body unceremoniously dumped on the tarmac.

I could continue, but I think you get the gist.


Your soft implication that the US is somehow abetted or is responsible for modern islamic terrorism by its material support to the mujahideen during the Russian / Afghan war is simply wrong.


*Sorry if I stole your dance Rik *




I was reffering to "modern Islamic terrorism" in the sense of Al-Qaeda and the hundred or so groups under its umbrella. Obviously, HAMAS and Hezbollah did not get their start from the Afghan War, but they are also not tied with Al-Qaeda. I also think you should look up the facts on the ISI and opium trading. It is widely known that the ISI used the opium trade to help pay for the war in Afhganistan and make certian high ranking officers very rich. I'm surpised that you are not aware of this fact. Yes, the Taliban was set up originally to protect opium trade routes. Yes, the Taliban was against its use by their followers. Its consumption was meant for western users. These are not new facts. I'm not breaking any new ground with my statements. I'm truely surprised that you guys are argueing these facts. My god any book or article on terrorism will point out the strong ties between hard lined Mujahideen groups from the Russian war in Afghanistan and modern Al-Qaeda umbrella terrorists groups. This is not secret information or hard to find. I personally just think you don't want to believe the U.S. goverment made a serious mistake in trusting Pakistans ISI with handling our money spent to support the war. Many in the ISI have hard lined Islamic views themselves and pushed support to groups that shared these views. Individuals from these groups have formed the back bone and leadership of many of todays Islamic terrorists groups all around the world. Denying these facts makes you purely wrong.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 6:01:52 AM EST
the effects of feminism on our society...

dual income yuppies at the top, mothers that now have to work at the bottom. our children are no longer getting proper supervision while our leaders are dealing with issues like "women" instead of men...
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 6:07:08 AM EST
Wahabbis helped the House of Saud to power, twice actually. Saudis control Mecca Medina, hence they are the big shots of Islam. Wahabbis might compare to KKK, extremists who loosely use the Bible for a little back-up. All of Islam believes the Q'uran is true, just like all of Christianity believe the Bible is true. Get that one? Anyway, imagine if you will that the KKK has shared generously in the billions of oil dollars in their home state of Texas (just an example) over decades. Now imagine that some black troops came to Texas to help fight off invaders from Mexico. The rest you can imagine for yourself, but remember extremists logic is not close to ours.

Heard this somewhere as an explanation.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 6:12:43 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/13/2004 6:23:47 AM EST by MIerinMD]

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:
I was reffering to "modern Islamic terrorism" in the sense of Al-Qaeda and the hundred or so groups under its umbrella. Obviously, HAMAS and Hezbollah did not get their start from the Afghan War, but they are also not tied with Al-Qaeda. I also think you should look up the facts on the ISI and opium trading. It is widely known that the ISI used the opium trade to help pay for the war in Afhganistan and make certian high ranking officers very rich. I'm surpised that you are not aware of this fact. Yes, the Taliban was set up originally to protect opium trade routes. Yes, the Taliban was against its use by their followers. Its consumption was meant for western users. These are not new facts. I'm not breaking any new ground with my statements. I'm truely surprised that you guys are argueing these facts. My god any book or article on terrorism will point out the strong ties between hard lined Mujahideen groups from the Russian war in Afghanistan and modern Al-Qaeda umbrella terrorists groups. This is not secret information or hard to find. I personally just think you don't want to believe the U.S. goverment made a serious mistake in trusting Pakistans ISI with handling our money spent to support the war. Many in the ISI have hard lined Islamic views themselves and pushed support to groups that shared these views. Individuals from these groups have formed the back bone and leadership of many of todays Islamic terrorists groups all around the world. Denying these facts makes you purely wrong.



Our disagreement stems from the definition of "modern terrorism" You believe that Al-Queda and Ansar al Islam and the like are recent developments. I say that they are not.

Osama bin Laden, Sheik Kalid Mohammad and the rest of these asshats were not created in a vaccuum. Todays groups have deep roots in the likes of Hezbolla, Al Fatah, Hamas, PLO et al, because members of those organizations helped train and develop the leaders of today. The lyrics may have changed but the song remains the same.

The Afghan war did not create islamo-terrorism. It was already there. What has changed however is the technology to put their plans into practice.

Please read something other than Michel Chossudovsky's book and The Centre for Research on Globalization as your research tools.


Denying these facts makes you purely wrong

And one more thing, statements like the one above, made to give your arguement 'extra credibility,' only helps to make you look foolish.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 6:24:53 AM EST

Originally Posted By MIerinMD:

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:
I was reffering to "modern Islamic terrorism" in the sense of Al-Qaeda and the hundred or so groups under its umbrella. Obviously, HAMAS and Hezbollah did not get their start from the Afghan War, but they are also not tied with Al-Qaeda. I also think you should look up the facts on the ISI and opium trading. It is widely known that the ISI used the opium trade to help pay for the war in Afhganistan and make certian high ranking officers very rich. I'm surpised that you are not aware of this fact. Yes, the Taliban was set up originally to protect opium trade routes. Yes, the Taliban was against its use by their followers. Its consumption was meant for western users. These are not new facts. I'm not breaking any new ground with my statements. I'm truely surprised that you guys are argueing these facts. My god any book or article on terrorism will point out the strong ties between hard lined Mujahideen groups from the Russian war in Afghanistan and modern Al-Qaeda umbrella terrorists groups. This is not secret information or hard to find. I personally just think you don't want to believe the U.S. goverment made a serious mistake in trusting Pakistans ISI with handling our money spent to support the war. Many in the ISI have hard lined Islamic views themselves and pushed support to groups that shared these views. Individuals from these groups have formed the back bone and leadership of many of todays Islamic terrorists groups all around the world. Denying these facts makes you purely wrong.



Our disagreement stems from the definition of "modern terrorism" You believe that Al-Queda and Ansar al Islam and the like are recent developments. I say that they are not.

Osama bin Laden, Sheik Kalid Mohammad and the rest of these asshats were not created in a vaccuum. Todays groups have deep roots in the likes of Hezbolla, Al Fatah, Hamas, PLO et al, because members of those organizations helped train and develop the leaders of today. The lyrics may have changed but the song remains the same.

The Afghan war did not create islamo-terrorism. It was already there. What has changed however is the technology to put their plans into practice.

Please read something other than Michel Chossudovsky's book as your research tool.


Denying these facts makes you purely wrong

And one more thing, statements like the one above, made to give your arguement 'extra credibility,' only helps to make you look foolish.



Exactly...

Where do you think all the recruits from the Afgahn war came from?

Militant Islam started it's re-ascendancy with the formation of Israel. This spread to Iran & Lebanon, then went around the world...

Just because Fatah & Hamas aren't connected directly to Al Queda doesn't mean they're not part of the same trend.

Also, you do know what Osama's 2nd in command did before he was an AQ honcho? He was...

The leader of Egyptian Islamic Jihad (a pro-pali terror group)...
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 6:28:54 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/13/2004 6:45:51 AM EST by Va_Dinger]

Originally Posted By MIerinMD:

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:
I was reffering to "modern Islamic terrorism" in the sense of Al-Qaeda and the hundred or so groups under its umbrella. Obviously, HAMAS and Hezbollah did not get their start from the Afghan War, but they are also not tied with Al-Qaeda. I also think you should look up the facts on the ISI and opium trading. It is widely known that the ISI used the opium trade to help pay for the war in Afhganistan and make certian high ranking officers very rich. I'm surpised that you are not aware of this fact. Yes, the Taliban was set up originally to protect opium trade routes. Yes, the Taliban was against its use by their followers. Its consumption was meant for western users. These are not new facts. I'm not breaking any new ground with my statements. I'm truely surprised that you guys are argueing these facts. My god any book or article on terrorism will point out the strong ties between hard lined Mujahideen groups from the Russian war in Afghanistan and modern Al-Qaeda umbrella terrorists groups. This is not secret information or hard to find. I personally just think you don't want to believe the U.S. goverment made a serious mistake in trusting Pakistans ISI with handling our money spent to support the war. Many in the ISI have hard lined Islamic views themselves and pushed support to groups that shared these views. Individuals from these groups have formed the back bone and leadership of many of todays Islamic terrorists groups all around the world. Denying these facts makes you purely wrong.



Our disagreement stems from the definition of "modern terrorism" You believe that Al-Queda and Ansar al Islam and the like are recent developments. I say that they are not.

Osama bin Laden, Sheik Kalid Mohammad and the rest of these asshats were not created in a vaccuum. Todays groups have deep roots in the likes of Hezbolla, Al Fatah, Hamas, PLO et al, because members of those organizations helped train and develop the leaders of today. The lyrics may have changed but the song remains the same.

The Afghan war did not create islamo-terrorism. It was already there. What has changed however is the technology to put their plans into practice.

Denying these facts makes you purely wrong

And please, statements like the one above made to give your arguement 'extra credibility' only help make you foolish.



I find it totally strange that you have choosen to disagree on the place of birth of Al-Qaeda. Yes, their were Islamic terrorists groups before Al-Qaeda. Yes they all get their spirtual idealism from the Wahhabi sect of Islam. My point is that most of the curent leaders of Al-Qaeda umbrella organizations got their start and training in the Afghan war or in the training camps left over from the war. Are you going to disprove this fact? Or just make vague statements? None of this is earth shaking new information. You clearly show your ignorance on the subject in that you are not aware of it.

And please, statements that deny the facts only makes you look foolish. I would suggest that you actually research your postion before you try to come off as an expert.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 6:33:41 AM EST
www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110004952

This is a very lengthy but excellent read that also links the Carter admin's handling of the Iran hostage situation as a key mistake.

Link Posted: 5/13/2004 6:39:42 AM EST
Hell, since you won't bother to research your own position - I took the 3 minutes. Wikipedia Encyclopedia seems knows more on the subject than you. I was really surprised.

Quote from Wikipedia Encyclopedia:
Al-Qaida
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Al-Qaida (القاعده in Arabic, and also transliterated as al-Qaeda, al-Qa'ida, al-Quaida, el-Qaida, äl-Qaida and is Arabic for the foundation) is an Islamist paramilitary movement which is widely regarded as a terrorist organization, especially in the West. It is led by Osama bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahri.

Al-Qaida has other names that it goes by, such as The Base, Islamic Army, World Islamic Front for Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders, Islamic Army for the Liberation of the Holy Places, Osama bin Laden Network, Osama bin Laden Organization, Islamic Salvation Foundation, and The Group for the Preservation of the Holy Sites.


Table of contents [showhide]
1 Overview

2 History of al-Qaida

3 Al-Qaida terrorist actions

4 The chain of command

5 How al-Qaida strikes

6 Countries where al-Qaida has operated

7 Internet Activities

8 Did US actions create al-Qaida?

9 See also

10 External links




Overview
Al-Qaida was established by Osama bin Laden in 1988 to expand the resistance movement against the Soviet forces in Afghanistan into a pan-Islamic resistance movement. It evolved from an organization referred to as the Makhtab al-Khidamat (MAK), which initially helped to finance, recruit, and train mujahedeen for the Afghan resistance against the Soviets during the Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan. This organization was funded partly by Osama bin Laden himself, but also by donations from many sources in Islamic countries and the US Government. al-Qaida is thought currently to have several thousand members.


Although "al-Qaida" is the name of the organization used in popular culture, the organization does not use the name to formally refer to itself. The name al-Qaida was coined by the United States government based on the name of a computer file of bin Laden's that listed the names of contacts he had made at the MAK, which talks about the organization as the "Qaida-al-Jihad" — the base of the jihad.

The military leader of al-Qaida is widely reported to have been Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, who was reportedly arrested in Pakistan in 2003. Its previous military leader, Muhammed Atef, was allegedly killed in a U.S. bombing raid on Afghanistan in late 2001.

Al-Qaida's religious inspiration has its roots in the Wahhabi sect, the creed embraced by the current rulers of Saudi Arabia. The ultimate goal of al-Qaida is to establish a Wahhabi Caliphate across the entire Islamic world, by working with allied Islamic extremist groups to overthrow regimes it deems "non-Islamic" (ie non-Wahhabi Islamist). It sees western governments (particularly the US Government) as interfering in the affairs of Islamic nations in the interests of western corporations. The largest attacks for which al-Qaida is believed to have been responsible were the September 11, 2001 Terrorist Attack on the World Trade Center in New York and The Pentagon in Washington DC. Al-Qaida is also suspected of carrying out the 1998 U.S. embassy bombings.


History of al-Qaida
Al-Qaida evolved from the Makhtab al-Khidamat — a mujahedeen resistance organization fighting the Soviet forces in Afghanistan in the 1980s. Osama bin Laden was a founding member of the MAK along with Palestinian militant Abdullah Azzam. Towards the end of the Soviet occupation, many mujahedeen wanted to expand their operations to include Islamist struggles in other parts of the world. A number of overlapping and interrelated organisations were formed to further those aspirations.

One of these was al-Qaida, which was formed by Osama bin Laden in 1988. Bin Laden wished to extend the conflict to non-military operations in other parts of the world; Azzam, in contrast, wanted to remain focused on military campaigns. After Azzam was killed in 1989, the MAK split, with a significant number joining bin Laden's organization.

Since other parts of the world were often not in such open warfare as Afghanistan under the Soviet occupation, the move from MAK to al-Qaida involved more training in terrorist tactics. Other organizations were formed, including others by Osama bin Laden, to carry out different types of terrorism in different countries.

After the Soviet union withdrew from Afghanistan, Osama bin Laden returned to Saudi Arabia, while al-Qaida continued training operations in Afghanistan. He spoke against the Saudi Government during the Gulf War, and was encouraged to leave Saudi Arabia. In 1991 he moved to Sudan, whose Islamic government was fighting a civil war at the time. Money poured in from false charitable trusts such as Benevolence International, and several groups that bin Laden's brother-in-law Mohammed Jamal Khalifa started. Bin Laden sent men to Southeast Asia, Africa, Europe, and the United States. Money and arms flowed through cities like Chicago, Illinois, Houston, Texas, Kansas City, Missouri, Santa Clara, California, and Fort Lauderdale, Florida.

In 1996 he was expelled from Sudan after possible participation in the 1994 attempted assassination of Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak while his motorcade was in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia. Osama bin Laden returned to Afghanistan with some of his Sudanese operatives.

Al-Qaida training camps trained thousands of militant Muslims from around the world; some of whom later applied their training in various conflicts around the world such as Algeria, Chechnya, the Philippines, Egypt, Indonesia, Uzbekistan, Afghanistan, Tajikistan, Somalia, Yemen, Kosovo and Bosnia. Other terrorists came from parts of Africa, the People's Republic of China (Uighurs), and in one case, the United Kingdom. These terrorists intermingled at their camps, causing all of those causes to become one. Despite the perception of some people, al-Qaida members are ethnically diverse and are connected by their fundamentalist version of Islam.

In February 1998, bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahiri of Egyptian Islamic Jihad issued a fatwa under banner of "the World Islamic Front for Jihad Against the Jews and Crusaders" saying that it was the duty of all Muslims "to kill Americans and their allies, civilians and military, is an individual duty of every Muslim who is able."

From January 5, to January 8, 2000, al-Qaida held the 2000 al-Qaida Summit in a condominium in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. Malaysian authorities found out about the summit beforehand and provided videotapes after the summit occurred. Several September 11 hijackers attended the summit. However, wiretaps were not conducted, so authorities did not hear what they were discussing.

Benevolence International Foundation, a non-profit charity group accused by U.S. authorities of funding al-Qaida was branded as a terrorist organization in 2002.

In September 2002, the Lackawanna Cell was discovered by the Americans, leading to the arrests of the Buffalo six.

Al-Qaida has used London's Finsbury Park mosque as a recruitment ground, as well as areas in Manila, Philippines. The Finsbury Park mosque was raided in 2003.

The United States Administration now claims that two-thirds of the top leaders of al-Qaida are in custody or dead.


Al-Qaida terrorist actions
The first terrorist attack that al-Qaida has supposedly carried out consisted of three bombings which were targeted at US troops in Aden, Yemen, in December 1992. Two Austrian tourists died in the bombing.

They claim to have shot down US helicopters and killed US servicemen in Somalia in 1993. It is also sometimes suggested that they were involved in the 1993 World Trade Center bombing.

Al-Qaida members Ramzi Yousef, who was involved in the 1993 World Trade Center bombing, and Khalid Sheik Mohammed, made Operation Bojinka. If it was implemented, it would have been disastrous. An apartment fire in Manila, Philippines exposed the plan. Youssef was arrested, but Mohammed evaded capture until 2003.

They have been thought to have proctored a bombing at a U.S. military facility in Riyadh in November 1995, which killed two people from India and five Americans. al-Qaida is also thought to be responsible for the 1996 bomb attacks on American military personnel in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia.

Al-Qaida is believed to have conducted the bombings in August 1998 of the US embassies in Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, killing more than 300 people and injuring more than 5,000 others.

On January 3, 2000, al-Qaida also planned attacks against US and Israeli tourists visiting Jordan for millennial celebrations, however the Jordanian authorities thwarted the planned attacks and put 28 suspects on trial. Al-Qaida also attempted the bombing of the Los Angeles International Airport in Los Angeles, California during the millennium holiday although the bomber, Ahmed Ressam was caught at the US-Canadian border with bombs in the trunk of his car. Also, al-Qaida planned to attack USS The Sullivans but that failed due to too much weight being put on the small boat meant to bomb the ship.

For more information about those three plots, see: 2000 celebration terrorist attacks plot

They are also thought to be responsible for the October 2000 USS Cole bombing. German police foiled a plot to destroy a cathedral in Strasbourg, France in December 2000. That plot was probably being carried out by al-Qaida.

The most destructive terrorist act ascribed to al-Qaida was the series of attacks in the USA on September 11th, 2001, an attack the group's spokesman Sulaiman Abu Ghaith defended on widely-distributed videos in October 2001.

Several attacks and attempted attacks since September 11, 2001 have been attributed to al-Qaida. The first of which was the Paris embassy terrorist attack plot, which was foiled. The second of which involved the attempted shoe bomber Richard Reid (who proclaimed himself a follower of Osama bin Laden — he got close to destroying American Airlines Flight 63)

More subsequent plots included the synagogue bombing in Djerba, Tunisia and attempted attacks in Jordan, Indonesia, Morocco, and Singapore. See: Singapore embassies terrorist attack plot. The network has also been implicated in the Limburg tanker bombing, of complicity in the kidnapping and murder of Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl and suspected of complicity in the October 2002 Bali car bombing of a nightclub in Bali, Indonesia. Al-Qaida was also involved in the assassination of US diplomat Laurence Foley in Jordan, a terrorist car bombing in Kenya in November 2002, the Riyadh Compound Bombings, and the Istanbul Bombings in Istanbul, Turkey, in 2003.

Al-Qaida has a worldwide reach, with cells in a number of countries and strong ties to Sunni extremist networks. Bin Laden and his lieutenants took shelter in Afghanistan during the Taliban regime in the 1990s. The group had a number of terrorist training camps there, and in the late 1990s the Taliban itself became effectively subordinate to al-Qaida. Since the American attack, members of the group are suspected of fleeing to the tribal areas of the Northwest Frontier Province and Baluchistan, Pakistan.

Al-Qaida has strong links with a number of other Islamic terrorist organizations including the Indonesian Islamic extremist group Jemaah Islamiyah.

Organizational specialists point out al-Qaida's network structure, as opposed to hierarchical structure is both its strength and a weakness. The decentralized structure enables al-Qaida to have a worldwide base; however, acts involving a high degree of organization, such as the September 11 attacks, take time and effort. American efforts to disrupt al-Qaida have been partially successful. Attacks made by al-Qaida since then have been simpler and involved fewer persons.

The UN Security Council, on January 16, 2002, unanimously established an arms embargo and the freezing of assets of bin Laden, al-Qaida, and the remaining Taliban.

In the aftermath of several March 11, 2004 attacks on commuter trains in Madrid, a London newspaper reported receiving an email from a group affiliated with al-Qaida, claiming responsibility and a videotape claiming responsibility was also found.


The chain of command
Osama bin Laden is the emir, or the ruler of the group.
His second-in-command, Ayman al-Zawahiri is the head of the Shura council. The shura council is made up of 30 aides who deal in policymaking.

Next down in the line are three committees:


The Military committee is responsible for training, weapons acquisition, and planning terrorist attacks.
The Money/Business committee runs business operations. The travel office provides air tickets and false passports. The payroll office pays al-Qaida members, and the Management office oversees money-making businesses.
The Islamic study/fatwah committee issues fatwahs meant to promote al-Qaida's cause
There was once a Media committee, which ran the now defunct newspaper Newscast and did public relations.


How al-Qaida strikes
Al-Qaida sets up groups of members called "terrorist cells" all over the world. To do this, members obtain false passports and travel to wherever they are assigned to.
Some cells are immediately put to work on performing a terrorist attack. Other cells are "sleeper cells". Sleeper cells blend in with the community and remain inactive until the leadership sends them further instructions. Some cells launder money and/or make false passports.

Members have some say in recent terrorist plots. Mohammed Atta chose the date which the September 11, 2001 Terrorist Attacks occurred.


Countries where al-Qaida has operated
According to the United States Department of State as of 2001, al-Qaida has operated in the following countries.
Albania
Algeria
Afghanistan
Azerbaijan
Australia
Austria
Bahrain
Bangladesh
Belgium
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Egypt
Eritrea
France
Germany
India
Iran
Ireland
Italy
Jordan
Kenya
Kosovo
Lebanon
Libya
Malaysia
Mauritania
Netherlands
Pakistan
Philippines
Qatar
Russia
Saudi Arabia
Somalia
South Africa
Sudan
Switzerland
Tajikistan
Tanzania
Tunisia
Turkey
Uganda
United Arab Emirates
United Kingdom
United States
Uzbekistan
Yemen



Al-Qaida is additionally suspected to be responsible for the March 11, 2004 Madrid attacks in Spain.



Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:02:06 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/13/2004 7:09:49 AM EST by MIerinMD]

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

I find it totally strange that you have choosen to disagree on the roots of Al-Qaeda.



Well, it appears you have a problem with those who disagree with you. You might want to grow up a little.




Yes, their were Islamic terrorists groups before Al-Qaeda. My point is that most of the curent leaders of Al-Qaeda umbrella organizations got their start and training in the Afghan war or in the training camps left over from the war. Are you going to disprove this fact?




Absolutely. Two off the top of my head are Ayman Al-Zawahri and Mohammed Atef, both members of the Egyptian Islamic Jihad before they went to join Al-Queda. The EIJ was the organization implicated in the murder of Anwar Sadat (which, to the best of my recollection was no where near Afghanistan).

Need more?




Or just make vague statements? None of this is earth shaking new information. You clearly show your ignorance on the subject in that you are not aware of it.

And please, statements that deny the facts only makes you look foolish. I would suggest that you actually research your postion before you try to come off as an expert.



I have produced names and dates for my arguements, you have provided nothing but your opinion. Yet you complain about my 'ignorance.'

No one is arguing about the existance of Al-Queda or how Al-Queda's organizational prominence came about during the Afghan war. What I am contending is that modern islamo-terrorism didn't start there.


Lasty, ad hominem attacks are the last refuge of person on the losing side of a debate.

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