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Posted: 7/31/2005 8:36:26 PM EDT
Despite what ANYONE says right now "we don't know for sure."

A lot of people have a lot of ideas. Some of them reasonable, some not very well reasoned.

Probably the most common are:

1. Organic Goo - This is the real "missing link" for science. Once conditions existed that could support life where the hell did it actually first come from? Does life somehow "spontaneously" come into existence when suitable conditions exist to support it? Can basic elements and certain conditions (electricity?) produce life? It's as good an answer as any but leaves many feeling a BIG piece of the puzzle is still missing.

2. Divine Creation - God or a Supreme Being or similar Diety created us and all we know. Simple enough but begs the question...Where did HE come from?

3. Cosmic Seeding - Life on Earth was introduced from a extra terrestrial source either by natural occurance (comet, meteor, etc.) or by design (aliens, alien probe) and we are really the evolution of cosmic life. But this quickly takes us to the question of where did THAT life come from?

4. Life As A Constant - Not terribly intellectually satisfying but there is the idea that "life" is a basic component of the Universe and always has and always will exist as long as there is a Universe. Difficult to grasp, harder to accept, but no more absurd than life that "magically appears" or a "Creator" that has always existed.
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 8:38:22 PM EDT
IBTM

#2. I know that's true, because of my faith. That's my answer, and it's correct for me. YMMV.
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 8:43:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By npd233:
IBTM

#2. I know that's true, because of my faith. That's my answer, and it's correct for me. YMMV.



Not to worry. Something tells me #2 will be a popular answer here.
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 8:45:01 PM EDT
"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth"
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 8:45:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By -Absolut-:
"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth"

Link Posted: 7/31/2005 8:47:25 PM EDT
We have a religion forum now Steyr, that would be a more appropriatte place for this.
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 8:47:50 PM EDT
All I know is that it was not number 2
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 8:48:37 PM EDT
it's not neccessarily a religious question...
(as far as I'm concerned)
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 8:49:10 PM EDT
God, duh


Link Posted: 7/31/2005 8:49:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By WayMad:
All I know is that it was not number 2 because I was there when it happened


Fixed it for you.
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 8:49:32 PM EDT
fuck if I know or care for that matter.
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 8:50:30 PM EDT
#2
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 8:51:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Katana16j:
We have a religion forum now Steyr, that would be a more appropriatte place for this.

No, it wouldn't.
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 8:52:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By -Absolut-:
"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth"



He created night and day, then decided it would be a good thing to have a Sun.
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 8:53:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:

Originally Posted By WayMad:
All I know is that it was not number 2 because I was there when it happened


Fixed it for you.



and you know it was Divine creation because you where there when it happend
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 8:54:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By WayMad:

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:

Originally Posted By WayMad:
All I know is that it was not number 2 because I was there when it happened


Fixed it for you.


and you know it was Divine creation because you where there when it happend


No...I'm saying that SINCE I wasn't there, I choose #2 on faith.

Big difference between my choice and your opinion.
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 8:55:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By WayMad:

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:

Originally Posted By WayMad:
All I know is that it was not number 2 because I was there when it happened


Fixed it for you.



and you know it was Divine creation because you where there when it happend




Ah, and so begins the discussion of faith.

Link Posted: 7/31/2005 8:55:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:
[Big difference between my choice and your opinion.



not really...
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 8:57:29 PM EDT
There is no difference here, You say god created it all based on faith, I say that their is no god based on faith. that rules out divine creation.
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 8:58:40 PM EDT
I like number two because it is the best story for such a miracle. I mean, goo getting zapped by electricity doesn't sound very interesting. Single celled organisms are so boring.

I am bothered by the very question of where He came from and the Bible doesn't even bring this up.

The intergalactic transplant is a little too sci-fi ish for me and still doesn't answer the question of where we originated from(or "they").

So many questions, so few answers.

But Divine Creation is so tantalizing. The Bible is pretty good work.
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 8:59:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GhostRing:

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:
[Big difference between my choice and your opinion.


not really...


Sure there is. What I'm saying is "of all the options, I choose #2."

He's saying he doesn't know, but is SURE it's not #2. That's pretty silly. Either you don't know...or you do. You can't say "I don't know" and then say "I'm sure it wasn't #2."

Then again, I guess you can. It just makes you sound confused.
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 9:00:45 PM EDT
I "think" that Pasteur proved that life only comes from life.
Chemical evolution is a myth, never proven, dispite evolutionists claims to the contrary.
Cosmic seeding isn't a source, it would still have to come from somewhere.
Therefore, I "believe" that life came from a source of life outside our universe, and he is devine.
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 9:00:56 PM EDT
organic goop, but where that came from, who knows? Probably from subatomic particles from the Big Bang
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 9:00:59 PM EDT
There's an old saying: "You can't prove a negative".
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 9:02:32 PM EDT
Just to be clear, I'm not trying to cause a stir, just pointing out that the very question
has no factual answer, so the way I see it, every choice is an opinion...
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 9:03:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By postpostban:
I "think" that Pasteur proved that life only comes from life.
Chemical evolution is a myth, never proven, dispite evolutionists claims to the contrary.
Cosmic seeding isn't a source, it would still have to come from somewhere.
Therefore, I "believe" that life came from a source of life outside our universe, and he is devine.


You make a pretty good point on the chemical evolution postban, it's true there's still little to no evidence for any chemical evolution.
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 9:03:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By WayMad:

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:

Originally Posted By WayMad:
All I know is that it was not number 2 because I was there when it happened


Fixed it for you.



and you know it was Divine creation because you where there when it happend



and you know it wasn't, because you were there?
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 9:03:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
Despite what ANYONE says right now "we don't know for sure."



Absolutely. No one knows for sure. I didn't vote for any.
I do believe that we will eventually deduce the answer from available evidence and/or from traveling in space, eventually.


A lot of people have a lot of ideas. Some of them reasonable, some not very well reasoned.

Probably the most common are:

1. Organic Goo - This is the real "missing link" for science. Once conditions existed that could support life where the hell did it actually first come from? Does life somehow "spontaneously" come into existence when suitable conditions exist to support it? Can basic elements and certain conditions (electricity?) produce life? It's as good an answer as any but leaves many feeling a BIG piece of the puzzle is still missing.



Yeah, it is tough to swallow if you really think about it. No reason that saccharides, nucleic acids and amino acids couldn't form on their own but what brought them together in an ordered, self-reproducing fashion consistent with life. Boy, what are the odds?
And was a bacteria or a virus first? Were viruses taken up by fat globules where their DNA adapted to a new environment? But how could a virus exist without cells to infect in order to reproduce? So then a bacteria was first. But that is a much more complicated organsim which seems unlikely to have evolved on its own.

Cell biology is pretty complicated. May have been incredibly simple initially but basics are necessary.
Ability to use an energy source to drive process of growth and reproduction. Without reproduction there is nothing.
Ability to convert this energy and have enzymes which will build various macromolecules, storage compounds, etc.
Enzymes to read DNA and reproduce it.
Enzymes to make various proteins from DNA template.

Is it possible? Yeah, but would expect life to be incredibly rare around the Galaxy. We shall see.


2. Divine Creation - God or a Supreme Being or similar Diety created us and all we know. Simple enough but begs the question...Where did HE come from?


Possibly and the origin of God is truly the question to ask.


3. Cosmic Seeding - Life on Earth was introduced from a extra terrestrial source either by natural occurance (comet, meteor, etc.) or by design (aliens, alien probe) and we are really the evolution of cosmic life. But this quickly takes us to the question of where did THAT life come from?


Some very basic, very generalized organism could well be expected to survive in a variety of environments and without competition, rapidly evolve into numerous lifeforms.


4. Life As A Constant - Not terribly intellectually satisfying but there is the idea that "life" is a basic component of the Universe and always has and always will exist as long as there is a Universe. Difficult to grasp, harder to accept, but no more absurd than life that "magically appears" or a "Creator" that has always existed.


Nah.
Your point is a circular one though and well taken. At somepoint, some random formation of life almost had to have occurred.
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 9:04:02 PM EDT
The first two.

God created the LAws of science so life could evolve.

Simple as that.

Sgatr15
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 9:04:17 PM EDT
No it does not, the thought of a great being saying i need a project, lets make this big rock put some water here, creaters here and here, give them rules and done. Sounds like a fairy tail to me.
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 9:05:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Katana16j:
We have a religion forum now Steyr, that would be a more appropriatte place for this.



No.theists have a beginning also.
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 9:05:24 PM EDT

I believe the genesis account on faith. Do I have doubts about the literality of it? Sure. Who doesn't? I make no pretense of being a super-christian.

I do think rationally that life cannot arise from non-life.

Biogenesis is provable. Abiogenesis is not. Based on that empirical evidence, a divine creator seems to be the more plausible explanation for the origins of life.
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 9:06:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AssaultRifler:
organic goop, but where that came from, who knows? Probably from subatomic particles from the Big Bang



what if the "Big Bang" is when God blew Himself up?
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 9:07:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By WayMad:
No it does not, the thought of a great being saying i need a project, lets make this big rock put some water here, creaters here and here, give them rules and done. Sounds like a fairy tail to me.



Speaking of fairy tales, the unbelievable complexity of life just happenning by chance, seems like a whopper with cheese to me.
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 9:08:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By WayMad:
No it does not, the thought of a great being saying i need a project, lets make this big rock put some water here, creaters here and here, give them rules and done. Sounds like a fairy tail to me.



If you had great powers and a big empty playground with alot of time on your hands what would you do?
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 9:10:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By postpostban:

Speaking of fairy tales, the unbelievable complexity of life just happenning by chance, seems like a whopper with cheese to me.



The complexity of life should re-enforce the idea of intelligent design.
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 9:10:06 PM EDT
And only a being with a sick sense of humor could have created all this.
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 9:11:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
I believe the genesis account on faith. Do I have doubts about the literality of it? Sure. Who doesn't? I make no pretense of being a super-christian.

I do think rationally that life cannot arise from non-life.

Biogenesis is provable. Abiogenesis is not. Based on that empirical evidence, a divine creator seems to be the more plausible explanation for the origins of life.




Originally Posted By Rebel_Marine:

Your (Steyr Aug's) point is a circular one though and well taken. At somepoint, some random formation of life almost had to have occurred.



If life was started here by God or Aliens, and if God created the Aliens, then who created God? Somewhere, somehow, sometime a lifeform began randomly. Logically this is really the conclusion one must come to.
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 9:20:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/31/2005 9:22:55 PM EDT by samsong]
I think that the first three events happening together can together explain much.

I've never been a fan of the Creation tale as a literal explanation - God explains things simply to a simple people who will later develop more complex and "quantum" means of understanding these difficult questions.
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 9:21:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/31/2005 9:23:51 PM EDT by The_Macallan]

Originally Posted By Rebel_Marine:
If life was started here by God or Aliens, and if God created the Aliens, then who created God? Somewhere, somehow, sometime a lifeform began randomly. Logically this is really the conclusion one must come to.

Petitio principii.

Life began randomly because somewhere, somehow, sometime a lifeform began randomly?
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 9:24:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Katana16j:
We have a religion forum now Steyr, that would be a more appropriatte place for this.



Actually as only one of the selections is religious I don't see how this belongs there.

We don't have a Science Forum either.
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 9:27:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By WayMad:
There is no difference here, You say god created it all based on faith, I say that their is no god based on faith. that rules out divine creation.



Alright guys take it easy.

I have already proven SHINTO is the one true religion.

Shinto Is the One True Religion...

Link Posted: 7/31/2005 9:30:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By postpostban:
I "think" that Pasteur proved that life only comes from life.
Chemical evolution is a myth, never proven, dispite evolutionists claims to the contrary.
Cosmic seeding isn't a source, it would still have to come from somewhere.
Therefore, I "believe" that life came from a source of life outside our universe, and he is devine.



Evolutionist do NOT claim to have proven the source of original life on the Earth. They have only searched for it and offered their best guess based upon what is known.
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 9:31:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GhostRing:
Just to be clear, I'm not trying to cause a stir, just pointing out that the very question
has no factual answer, so the way I see it, every choice is an opinion...



And that is why the very first line was...

Despite what ANYONE says right now "we don't know for sure."
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 9:35:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sgtar15:

Originally Posted By AssaultRifler:
organic goop, but where that came from, who knows? Probably from subatomic particles from the Big Bang



what if the "Big Bang" is when God blew Himself up?



Could very well be, just like bomb makers sometimes blow themselves up when making bombs. Maybe he didnt read the safety instructions on those quadrillion ton drums of tannerite
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 9:35:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sgtar15:

Originally Posted By AssaultRifler:
organic goop, but where that came from, who knows? Probably from subatomic particles from the Big Bang



what if the "Big Bang" is when God blew Himself up?



Or bought a Glock?
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 9:38:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By samsong:
I think that the first three events happening together can together explain much.

I've never been a fan of the Creation tale as a literal explanation - God explains things simply to a simple people who will later develop more complex and "quantum" means of understanding these difficult questions.



A rather eloquent idea.

Seriously if you went back 4,000 years and explained modern sciences understanding of the origins of the universe and things like nuclear energy and told them to write it all down how much do you think they'd actually grasp?
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 9:39:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Macallan:

Originally Posted By Rebel_Marine:
If life was started here by God or Aliens, and if God created the Aliens, then who created God? Somewhere, somehow, sometime a lifeform began randomly. Logically this is really the conclusion one must come to.



Petitio principii.

Life began randomly because somewhere, somehow, sometime a lifeform began randomly?



Life may have began spontaneously here on Earth.
If not, it was either created or seeded. If seeded, from where and how did that life begin? Either spontaneous or created or seeded. At somepoint the original lifeform, assuming seeding, was either created or arose spontaneously. If created, where did the creator begin? And how and where?
Somewhere, life had to have arose spontaneously unless you have another alternative.
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 9:50:14 PM EDT
Why is it people assume life "must" have arisen randomly when the don't know how, can't explain why, and can't replicate the process under even the most ideal laboratory conditions?

I thought the scientific method demanded speculation only on what could be observed and proven...

Biogenesis can be observed. It is a proven fact.

Every hypothesis relating to abiogenesis is only pure speculation... and yet, many "logical" people claim that it must have happened.
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 9:55:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
Why is it people assume life "must" have arisen randomly when the don't know how, can't explain why, and can't replicate the process under even the most ideal laboratory conditions?

I thought the scientific method demanded speculation only on what could be observed and proven...

Biogenesis can be observed. It is a proven fact.

Every hypothesis relating to abiogenesis is only pure speculation... and yet, many "logical" people claim that it must have happened.



Yes biogenesis is a fact. But where did that original life form come from?
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 10:00:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

Originally Posted By npd233:
IBTM

#2. I know that's true, because of my faith. That's my answer, and it's correct for me. YMMV.



Not to worry. Something tells me #2 will be a popular answer here.



Indeed but popularity does not implicate creedance.
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