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Posted: 11/29/2001 2:10:31 PM EDT
Well its almost Xmas and I can hardly buy anything not made in China. Do companies think the people of America can support China's work force? Every time a company moves its product to be made in China we lose jobs. So How long can we live off the fat of this country? There is nothing we can't make ourselfs. I for one, really piss off the better half when I won't buy something made in China/Taiwan. Good old USA companies now have most of its products made in China. I can hardly find a pair of shoes made in USA. What is going on before our eyes? Refuse to buy that junk. Lets take back America. Don't buy from the PPC (Political Prisioners of China) Now I like certain foreign companies. I like to spend my hard earned dollar (.58 after taxes) on what will give me the best service for the buck. But China always makes junk. Quit using our limited supply of natural resources to make junk. Ranting done...flame on. Rick
Link Posted: 11/29/2001 2:23:29 PM EDT
Was gonna guy some of those American flag pins I saw at the last fun show until I noticed the made in china sticker on the back.
Link Posted: 11/29/2001 2:28:38 PM EDT
I was really irritated when I got home with my new American Flag hat and realized that it was made in Bangladesh. I ripped out the tag, but it didn't make me feel any better about it.
Link Posted: 11/29/2001 2:28:41 PM EDT
Well you can thank the Unions that have constantly called for increased in wages for allot of this.. My flame suit is in fine working order.
Link Posted: 11/29/2001 2:37:40 PM EDT
Yeah... Unions have destroyed this country. Once the teamsters, NEA, AFL-CIO and the rest of the thugs make their way to China, the price of their goods will go up in a HUGE way !
Link Posted: 11/29/2001 2:42:33 PM EDT
I tried to buy an American truck(Ford), but the engine is made in Germany and the tires & transmission were made in France.
Link Posted: 11/29/2001 2:44:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/29/2001 2:36:40 PM EDT by Hank]
Link Posted: 11/29/2001 3:18:08 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/29/2001 3:27:47 PM EDT
Any car you buy today is "made" in about 14 different countries. It's called comparative advantage. I have a 2000 VW that was assembled in Mexico by robots designed and built in Germany with parts from all over the world. The only reason that BMW and Porsche put plants in SC and GA is that they got cheap land and tax incentives, and they did the same thing...they don't have to employ a lot of unskilled people because the robots weld the cars more precisely anyway. Labor is cheaper in China. Why should a company pay U.S. market wages plus all the taxes and required benefits to make something that doesn't require skilled labor? The U.S. is not losing jobs, it's becoming a service and skilled labor based economy. The college degree today is what the high school diploma was 30 years ago.
Link Posted: 11/29/2001 5:20:36 PM EDT
I feel your pain - I work with a lot of iron and steel goods and I have to pull teeth to get US made and forged steel ANYTHING! When I am asked why, the answer is simple - Chinese steel ain't fit for making fireplace pokers, much less anything that requires STRENGTH... I, for one, would like to know what our current annual trade deficit with China is, and what the USG plans to do about it. Inflation is one of the reasons that the cost of consumer goods has gone up so much, and why wages have to go up to follow, but for each job we send overseas we contribute to homeland inflation that much more - and we have a trade deficit with most of hte countries we trade with. We are not keeping our dollars here at home, and we are not getting back the ones we send overseas - and we wonder why they are losing their value...? I have always preferred, where possible, to do business with small local companies. My regular suppliers know DAMN WELL that I better get parts with "Made in the US" stamped on them, or I flatly will not take them - nor will I pay for them. I will, however, pay extra for US-made stuff, because it is BETTER. When I buy a town chain, it had damn well better pull the load it is rated for, or you are about to have a problem. Clevises and shackles better hold up, and hardware that sez "Stainless Steel" damn well better not rust in a light mist (I have had this happen. You do not want to know my reaction to this...) If I take a sample of 316 SS in for an assay - which I have been known to do - the numbers I get back better match closely what my 26th Ed. Machinist's Manual tells me is in there. My vehicles were made in Toledo, OH in 1987, 1988, and 1989. I checked everything out, and the only parts made overseas were the transmissions (Japanese and French) - and the French gearbox is on the block to be changed out for an American Unit when I get the time and money... Axles, engines, electronics - all made here! (Dana Corp, Indiana. Chrysler Foundry, Michigan. Bendix Corp, US (various locations)) WHen I had to buy parts to rebuild the engine in my 1987, I specified - and got - US-made parts. When I rebuild the transmission in the same vehicle, US made parts again. I want things to run... --- RANT MODE OFF --- Flame away. FFZ
Link Posted: 11/29/2001 5:31:31 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Stormbringer: Well you can thank the Unions that have constantly called for increased in wages for allot of this.
View Quote
That's pretty fucking funny coming from a fucking CANADIAN, land of the North American socialists, who's economy sucks ass and they only keep jobs because they mandate that so much of some products HAS to be produced in their country and hence they STEAL jobs from the US. Look at the automotive and locomotive industries for examples of this. Or do I hear the first volunteer to work for 4 0r 5 bucks a day that you expect union labor to compete with? Yeah, that's what I though.
Link Posted: 11/29/2001 5:48:18 PM EDT
I think companies are going start keeping more of the manufacturing here when Americans are content in the following: 1) Work for $1.00 an hour 2) Have no benefits 3) Work for 12 hours straight with only a lunch break. 4) Quit belly aching about how their boss is stupid and how they should be running the company. Ask yourself; If I owned a company, would I hire someone who is never content with their job. Drives a BMW and expect me as his boss to drive a Yugo and kiss his ass. All this when I know full well I can make a better profit while sending the business out of country, still get a tax break. My employees will never complain. And cheaper labor.
Link Posted: 11/29/2001 6:42:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/29/2001 6:34:29 PM EDT by DriftPunch]
Lordtrader must know my staff.
Link Posted: 11/29/2001 6:54:38 PM EDT
I am in the midst of making a product. I wanted to make the tooling here. US cost 60,000. Orient cost China, Thailand....10-15,000. Manufacturing of the product US $3 a pcs, overseas .50. No headaches with government paper work, no carpal tunnel syndrome, lawsuits blah blah blah.....On top of all of that the US consumer will not pay for the product or any product for that matter if it costs $1 more then an import. Believe me I wanted to make the product here, just can't be done. Thank you UAW et al, and US government.
Link Posted: 11/29/2001 6:56:37 PM EDT
Just what we need here. tire factories.
Link Posted: 11/29/2001 7:07:14 PM EDT
Good idea, Next time I need to see an MD, Lawyer, Accountant, I'll just pay them $1.00 an hour. [}:)] Ok who's willing to give back their salary and only take $1.00 a day. No bennies!!
Link Posted: 11/29/2001 10:55:55 PM EDT
My wife and I made a pact about 4 years ago regarding Chinese goods. We look for American first, Canada second, Japan/European third, and anything other than Communist Chinese last. If we absolutely cannot find what we need from the above four sources, then we look at Chinese goods. But that is a last resort. We expect to pay more for American goods, but that's okay. I used to wear Rockport and Timberland shoes when they were made in America. Around 1996 or so they moved production to China and lowered their prices by perhaps $25 a pair. But looking at the shoes, I also saw that the quality diminished as well. So, now I buy Havana Joe where I used to buy Timerland. They are more expensive, made in Spain, but that's the price I choose to pay. I do not support Communism and I will not fund our enemies.
Link Posted: 11/30/2001 3:15:05 AM EDT
Same thing, mattja, with New Balance shoes and Teva sandals. Used to be made in U.S., I used to buy them. They too finally succumbed and went to China. I won't buy anything made in that f'ed up country. I will pay 2-3 times as much to get something made somewhere else, even it if isn't American made. I just had to do that last week when I bought a hammer at Wally World. The only time they really backed me in a corner was for a calculator, and at three different stores, ALL the damn calculators were made in China. So the commie bastards got a little of my money. I really hate that.
Link Posted: 11/30/2001 4:33:00 AM EDT
Don't forget it is who you vote for. When it comes to foreign trade you find Republicans and Democrats selling the the country out. Oh, by the way it's not the elected officals in your state it's the other ones (yeah right). Our elected officals all need to be voted out of office regardless of party. Time they should start listening to the people and not big money and foreign lobbyists. The message will sink in. We trying to compete against protected markets and this must stop now. I went all over China last summer looking at manufacturers. Been to one with shaft grinding so clean you weren't allowed to wear shoes on the shop floor. I have seen them begin buy world class EDM equipment and 3D software(Bootleg?) for design and machine tool paths. They are still shy on quality is spite of this they don't seem to understand process controls. They throw people at stuff, not expensive autamation. So the quality suffers. This will change dramatically over the next few years as we show them how to improve. Most companies were owned by the goverment. Government is getting out selling them to the PEOPLE. Some have gone public and obviously have P&L responsibility to the share holders Does this sound like communism? Communism was standing joke everywhere I went. I doubt China will be communist by the Bejing 2008 Olympics. They have learned from Russia to ease of the reigns to aviod chaos. Chinese like Americans, their hospitality really impressed me. Let the economic wars begin
Link Posted: 11/30/2001 4:36:53 AM EDT
I am probably going to get flamed for this... but you can thank the unions for their efforts to increase labor wages and force mfgs to move their operations. I went to college and got my Bach in computer science. I got my masters in marketing. After 10 years of professional experience, I am just starting to make 6 figures. Any regular Joe can get lucky to get hired onto an automotive assembly line and make starting union wages of what... $18 an hour with increases to put them at $60-70K a year within a couple of years on the line with no education? I am not saying that mfg. or assembly is an unskilled trade, but I do wonder about people like my brother-in-law who got a job as a crane operator in a foundry without a HS diploma making $22 start. He will make $70K this year with OT. Here I am with a wall of paper and a decade of work experience and didn't make that kind of money until after a graduate degree and 6 years of work exp. Maybe IT people need a union.
Link Posted: 11/30/2001 4:42:51 AM EDT
Why are there unions? Because the folks on the lowest rungs of the socioeconomic ladder got tired of being treated like they were disposable. I strongly suspect that many of you at this board believe that history started around 1975 or so. US workers in the pre-union days were treated precisely the way workers are in China right now. They were paid starvation-level wages, worked 6 or 6 1/2 day weeks, had no benefits whatsoever (e.g. if you were injured at work, you were simply fired and replaced), made to work in unsafe conditions, etc. Child labor was also common. When workers displayed any discontent, Pinkertons and other hired thugs were brought in to crack skulls, shoot some "agitators" and generally frighten them back into subservience. State police organizations, like the Pennsylvania State Police for example, were formed largely as government thugs for the same purpose. We're not talking ancient history, here. My great-grandparents and grandparents told me about those times. But you guys see the US today and think it was always this way. Captains of industry just gave workers higher wages and benefit packages out the goodness of their hearts, then the greedy union thugs began exploiting the poor well-meaning management. Why don't you start your educations by studying the steel industry in the US from its inception to its "collapse" in the 80's. Those fat union contracts you like to blame for things were signed by management, too, people. Why did management not modernize the industry when they had the chance? Why did they sign these ostensibly destructive labor contracts? You anti-union guys are a hoot, no two ways about it.
Link Posted: 11/30/2001 6:18:53 AM EDT
Golgo, you also must agree that current union platforms have gone way beyond historical platforms. These current platforms are a huge deterrent for doing domestic business. Unions do indeed practice extortion. "We make the following demands, or we'll strike, and your revenue/processes will suffer". Now that good international transportation and communication infastructures exist, there are now viable alternatives to domestic production. I find it more than a little amusing that the same folks that applied constant political pressure and allowed business no protection, are now crying for that which they denied their employers in the first place.
Link Posted: 11/30/2001 6:53:56 AM EDT
Striking is what gives labor any power to bargain in the first place. Their services are what they bring to the table. What would you suggest they do instead? "If you don't give us a pay increase, we'll wear unhappy expressions?"
Link Posted: 11/30/2001 7:31:05 AM EDT
My biggest concern here is national defense. Vital American businesses are folding and no one cares. Look at our steel industry. It is THE most efficient and the highest quality in the world, yet they can't compete because foreign governments subsidize their steel industries (I'm thinking of Russia and Japan). The result? US steel companies can't produce at the artificially low market price. Now, I hope someone will tell me how we are supposed to make the impliments of war if we have not steel industry. What will happen if we go to war with a country who supplies our steel? The same thing goes for myriads of other defense critical businesses. Before our little incedent with China involving our recon plane, I was reluctant to buy Chinese made products. Now, I ABSOLUTELY REFUSE. They have demonstrated again and again that they are hostile towards us. Yet, we sponsor their entry into the WTO? What kind of morons are we? You can buy American made products. I do it all the time. It isn't easy, but sacrifice is necessary in all endevours where principles are upheld. Some New Balance shoes are American made, I just bought some this past summer. Florshiem also has American made shoes too (be carful to look, they also have their cheap Chinese made line too). The bottom line is that we must curb our desire for instant gratification and stick by our principles by taking the extra time and expending the extra effort to buy American made products. If I'm not mistaken, our trade deficit with China is about $7 to 8 billion (this can easily be varified using the data provided on the Department of Commerce website, I just don't have the time right now to look it up). Anyway, that few billion dollars is money that China can invest in its military. Think about this...when you buy Chinese made toys for your kids this Christmas, you may be financing the military machine that your kids likely give their lives fighting. Have your fun now, the Chinese army is preparing for war...high placed officials in their government have even admitted that war with the US is inevitable. Thanks to Clinton and other traitors, the Chinese have advanced their nuclear capability by DECADES (we allowed them to steal our secrets, remember? We also allowed them to buy supercomputers from US companies). As someone aptly pointed out already, the Republicans and Democrats have sold this country out. Of course this is fueled by cash and "campaign financing" (pay-offs). Our government truly is the best that money can buy. Hell, American companies don't even consider themselves American anymore. They are "multinational conglomerates". The acknowledge no national boarders. They don't salute your flag. Their allegence is to one thing...cash.
Link Posted: 11/30/2001 7:32:27 AM EDT
Yet, so-called "American" companies likd Ford, GM, Motorola, etc all get their PR machines in full swing to try to promote themselves as American these days. It is all window dressing. Want to buy an American made cell phone? Good luck. Motorola closed up their plants here...and moved them to China. Ford buys their parts from American sources, right? Wrong. They buy them from the lowest priced sources. Don't expect "American" companies to give you American made products. Yet, at the same time, they complain that there is no consumer loyalty. Well, why should there be? YOU haven't shown any loyalty to the American worker! Duh! What incentive is there to buy a Motorola cell phone over an Ericcson? At the same time Motorola is laying off American workers because sales are soft, they seem to have BILLIONS to invest in China. Interesting... The truth is that producing products in Third World countries rarely leads to lower prices (assuming quality is equal...which it almost never is). It leads to padded profits of big companies. Now, I'm not usually the type that harps on the "evils" of big business. But, this trade issue is really a big problem in my mind. When we finally succeed in shipping all our manufacturing jobs (and even agriculural jobs) out of the country, who is going to buy all the cheap crap they make in China? How are we going to avoid being held hostage by foreign countries? Let's protect our markets like other countries do. Let's protect our vital industries. Let's preserve jobs for American workers. If we can't do it by enacting law, then let's do it in our own small way...by voting with our dollars. In the long run, that is the most powerful way to effect change.
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